/lit/ - Literature

If you were a real postmodernist, you'd know that debate is useless.

this fish is not a pipe.

By what qualifiers do you consider yourself a postmodernist?

>>2603954
maybe I am just intrigued by the irony and the inherent futility of a debate, especially one trying to refute postmodernism.

No fuckin' way. Even at 1:15 in the morning I have a life.

Let us all maximize the fascist within ourselves.

>>2603957
The fact that I do not need to be qualified. Also I believe the fact that we cannot entirely verify any of the knowledge we possess precedes the validity of that knowledge. Also I believe in corrupting reality through creative acts.

>>2603970
So creative acts aren't part of reality?

>>2603972
Their manifestation in reality is obviously but their essence is supernatural. In the imagination gravity can fail, time can flow backwards and I don't have tfw no gf.

>>2603970
You don't believe in the scientific method do you. I've been surprised by the number of people here who don't. Really surprised. Just my own cocoon I guess.

>>2603980
So brain activity isn't part of reality?

>>2603985
actually sure I do but science is a practical tool, it would be shooting myself in the foot, even if I were a solipsist, to deny evolution and proven scientific laws. That is because it works within the context of reality and I too exist primarily in that context. However I don't think science can answer the most fundamental questions related to our existence or the universe and neither should it be able to. Science creates a better standard of living for people but it isn't some kind of virtue or ultimate truth, it has its limits. And all that I can conclude about reality is that it is the most cohesive and vivid representation of my imagination.

>>2603989
perhaps brain activity is a part of reality but the emergent phenomenon of thought is an abstraction.

>>2604005

We actually don't know that for sure.

>>2604009
my thoughts exactly

What books would you recommend for someone to understand postmodernist views like yours?

>>2604003
No offense, really, but the terminology you use, it sounds to my plebeian mind as academic bullshit. I really cannot tell what the hell you mean. And I wonder... do you even know what you mean? Or are you lost in semantics?

>>2604017

Worded that weirdly, basically give me 5-10 books and the order I should read them in to get me started on postmodernist philosophy.

Here's a good argument as ersatz of OP's shitty one:

Pragmatism is the solution to postmodernism. Prove me incorrect.

>>2604012
>>2604009

postmodernism is just a lame ripoff of modernism that's trying way too hard

>>2604031
Prove yourself correct first, motherfucker. Burden of proof is on you.

>>2604003
Postmodernism is a result of applying scientific method. Also, postmodernism asserts that there is no truth, that everything is relative, that everyone has their own truth, so why mention that science fails to discover an ultimate truth if not because you are implying that you believe there is an ultimate truth?

>>2604019
I somehow even doubt you read my post because I went out of my way to cut down on post-modern jargon such as "meta-narratives". Instead of "meta-narrative" I used the phrase "ultimate truth". Nevertheless I'll rephrase my idea. I do not think, science, a cultural phenomenon, operating within the realm of the universe can delineate the nature of the universe itself. Nor should do I expect rational thought to be able to answer all our questions. I clarified that I am not opposed to science outright but I think ultimately it is just a tool to allow us to understand various natural phenomenon and improve our conditions through the development of technologies. I believe science has created its own brand of superstition that human comprehension is boundless and we can see this delusion within certain cultural groups. Afterall self-styled "militant atheists" have already taken it upon themselves to declare there is no god when the existence of one isn't even particularly unlikely.

>>2604042
Postmodernism is nihilism.
Nihilism sucks.
I need something to hold on to. I've chosen the scientific method as the best way to understand the world. As the best way to get a grasp on "ultimate truth".

That and a belief in free will but that's a discussion we don't want to get into.

There's another thread about Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning. This is a good book.

>>2604058
tl;dr you can't prove me wrong and i can't prove you wrong so i win by default

>>2604058
So basically you're saying the Universe isn't turing complete because it can't emulate a universe - something which would be required in abstract form to understand the universe.

That... makes complete sense to my computer science brain.

>Postmodernist here, debate me.
Not that postmodern if you don't recognise the dialectic as another grand narrative.

>>2604069

so true.

>>2603970
>I believe the fact...
>cannot entirely verify any of the knowledge...

What knowledge can we use to test the partial (as opposed to "entirely") validity of something? When you say "I believe," what is the base for those beliefs? Do you doubt that base belief just as you would hold all other beliefs to a standard of disengaged doubt, or do you need to accept the base as valid before you can even begin thinking about other things?

Similarly: Are you for not believing anything at the risk of being wrong, or believing/trying everything for the possibility of being right?

>>2604058
I read your post carefully. And I sincerely did not mean to insult. Though I propably did by the way I expressed my thought. I apologise. But even with your second post, I have the same reaction.

Science is a cultural phenomenon? This is the kind of terminology I was talking about.

Best thing we can do here is agree to disagree. We both think the other is a nut job. I can live with that. I've enjoyed our exchange.

One last thought to express...
(in reference to another thread that should be of interest to posters on this thread) If Viktor Frankl had been a postmodernist he never would have survived the concentration camp.

/a/ here.

What is /lit/'s favorite postmodern anime

>>2604086
dude not everyone can handle a pomo lifestyle

>>2604028
I haven't even read that many! I've only read various essays by Barthes (Mythologies and s/z) and one by Lyotard (The postmodern condition: a report on knowledge). Even before I read Lyotard I was calling myself a postmodernist. I don't need to be well read in the literature of a specific movement in order to appreciate and identify with its ideas. Postmodernism is a simple concept that is tarted up with cryptology and jargon to give it the illusion of intellectual and academic merit. Postmodernism at its core is simply a philosophy of anti-intellectualism. I'm not ashamed of being anti-intellectual when the scientific community is now doing everything in its power to marginalize humanity and the individual. When we are being told we're just apes and we have fucking Ray Kurzweil talking about his "singularity" all the time. Science has provided us with many wondrous technologies that have improved our lives but now we're on the down-slope, we hit the apex and now science is creating its own problems with the degradation of the environment and our own dehumanization. So maybe it is a sort of abstract religion, driven largely by emotion but no more so than existentialism or any other philosophical movement is.

>>2604089
/a/ here. You're kidding yourself if you think they're going to say anything other than NGE. Also, neither you nor I should be here.

>>2604086
I think he probably survived by virtue of being recognized by the Nazis as a skilled psychiatric asset.

>>2604089
>intellectual anime
>2012

>>2604101
You know shit buddy. Read the book.

>>2604061
yes of course science is a cultural phenomenon. Everything humanity does on a large scale is a "cultural phenomenon". That however wasn't particularly relevant to my point.

>>2604097
Because stuff like Serial Experiments Lain and Ergo Proxy are super secret.

>>2604089
Bakemonogatari

but I'm go to /a/ and /jp/ as well as this board as my homes

>>2604104
Please don't start with that butthurt.

>>2604106
>Ergo Proxy
>Better than NGE

>>2604102
>intellectual anime
It's true, there's no such thing. All anime is stupid and immature.

>>2604042
No I'm not implying there is an ultimate truth. The whole concept of "truth" is a human construct and if I do not believe that reasoning can create a "meta-narrative" that satisfactorily determines the nature of our universe then I obviously do not believe their is an "ultimate truth."

>>2604102
>Well intelectual is a relative term, you can find a deep meaning in something that other people don't.
>>2604117
Serial experiments lain>NGE>Ergo Proxy>Boku no pico> Ghost in a shell.

>>2604089
>>2604092
>>2604106
>>2604107
>>2604117
>>2604119
plz go

>>2604123

no

>>2604126
plz

is this /a/ invasion?

>implying Madoka isn't postmodern

>>2604107
Shit taste.

>>2604130
only people who didn't understand the show would think that

Are you gay?

>>2604137

top left to right

>>2604122
LoGH > Serial experiments Lain > Ergo Proxy > Boku no pico > NGE = Ghost in a shell

But even LoGH isn't that good. I remember I had big expectations for LoGH because everyone on /a/ loves it so much, but in the end I was disappointed. It's better than every other anime out there, but it's still childish, immature and illogical. I guess that anime fans like LoGH because they have little experience with other mediums, which makes them easily impressed with anything that isn't written for someone in high school. There will never be anime on the level of for example Bergman, Kubrick or Kieslowski.

How do you deal with your mortality and insignificance?

If you believe in creating your own meaning, how do you get past the circular reasoning/ knowing nothing is actually meaningful?

Ex-Christian here and I'm drifting aimlessly and depressed.

What do you think of Nietzsche?

>>2604145
Dude, are you the guy on /a/ who was just talking about how he loves his Nihilist lifestyle?

>>2604150
also, upgrade your nihilism for existentialism or secular humanism.

>>2604145
Drink a can of cola and do whatever the fuck I want.

>>2604140
Holy shit, is there anymore like this?

>>2604143

We like LoGH because, as you said, it is pretty much the best series out there. The industry can't be as free willed as writers are, since most of the sales are made in Japan only, and the products must sell, making a single 25 minute episode costs insane amounts of money. Which means most anime made is about little cute girls doing cute things with the occasional shounen mecha anime thrown in.

I recommend you watch Pale Cocoon, Eve no Jikan, Mushishi and 5 Centimeters per second.
They might not be very "deep" but they certainly are different and a good watch none the less.

>>2604145
I don't see how the lack of meaning and the absurdity of existence implies I should be able to create my own meaning. I simply get by from day to day staving off the despair in coming to terms with such an existential dilemma. That's the thing, postmodernism cuts through the meta-narratives provided by science like a saber which is quite satisfying at one level but what's left is an vacuum that you can't legitimately fill with any sort of mythology lest you go back on your convictions and deny the potentiality of the universe. Of course some people want to say that postmodernism is all about how everyone is a special snowflake and your red might be my green and we should value everyone equally but I say that's just a bunch of pointless feel-good bullshit. I don't deny their perspective from a rational point of view but overall it strikes me as very naive. Just as Sartre and Camus were fairly divergent in their perspectives there are a great deal of interpretations of postmodernism.

>>2604150
no
>>2604151
>humanism
Why does human suffering matter? This cause has equal merit as anything else why don't I just collect stamps.

I really am just lazy and like being depressed, shit sucks. But spending time thinking about life... I can't trick myself into believing anything

>>2604150

No, that's me. And I never said shit about loving Nihilism.

Since when do people that can't read come too /lit/?

>>2604165
>/a/ here.

>>2604156

Not from the same author but you might want to read DOWMANS creations, they have the same kind of vibe.

DOMAN SAYMAN's Translated Works

These were all translated here:
http://thetsuuyaku.blogspot.com/?zx=63d5dc3db78004ea

He updates pretty frequently too. If you like DOWMAN, that blog is probably the best place to get translations at the moment.

The Kaguya Paradigm
http://www.mediafire.com/?997uv2yff5ht1us

Afterlife Jaunte
http://www.mediafire.com/?lzijkp6khqrryic

Ayame and Amane
http://www.mediafire.com/?9063qozybmsd5xb

Kopi Kopi Luwak
http://www.mediafire.com/?o6844kc571gpodd

Funny Game
http://www.mediafire.com/?6hte1dk2gqb9btb

High Heels and Sneakers
http://www.mediafire.com/?0mwdxw5097ebe17

The Collector and Phantom Pain:
http://www.mediafire.com/?l43kz3uziusf676

Poohta's Forest:
http://www.mediafire.com/?fp94w49l9p7kmig

Facehugger:
http://www.mediafire.com/?e4w88m5n1lei91d

Heart Food
http://www.mediafire.com/?kw1jwn2awg5wmbp

MUSE:
http://www.mediafire.com/?6r9h42dx94bbxkx

Oddman 11, Chapters 1 & 2:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ajccnou9nzgoqgt

Oddman 11, Chapter 3:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jbqj4q31of41429

The Voynich Hotel, Volume 1(Chapters 1-26):
http://www.mediafire.com/?catha6frjw1pctc

Paraiso Forty-One:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ieeh3iptjf8lgq2

Excerpts from: The Continuation of Sexual Instinct and the Hydrogen Bomb War(THIS INCLUDES Love Boat, Puja-San, The Garbage Planet, and Obligation Sniper Scum Beat):
http://www.mediafire.com/?tsahbi30ahvyis2

See subject line.

>>2604163
eh I agree on your stance on science, and I don't think a mcdonalds cheeseburger is as good as a nice steak BUT there is no valid way to argue it. I need to improve my intelligence definitely, I don't know many of your references and I suck at thinking.

>implies I should be able to create my own meaning
Sorry thought the "if" meant I wasn't assuming.
I too am getting by, and our destination is the same. the platitude is its the journey that matters, but so what? I know I can give myself motivation but understanding that it's all for naught makes the endeavor seem not worthwhile

Postmodernism is the art of dancing on the edges of the frames.

The frame of the stories, the frame of the world, the frame of the rules. The boundaries of sight.

So it deals both with epistemology (what's beyond the frame) as with the core of the human condition (closed point of view, mortality as a "frame" of life).

That's all you need to know. No other definition will tell you more.

/pss/ here, this is the last time I'm going to tell you /lit/, you don't know what you're fucking talking about when it comes to anything but books.
And /a/, don't you have some kawaii bullshit to watch?

There's no such thing as postmodernism.

>>2604174
>beyond the frame

Pomo's or postruc's have wildly and cravenly mis-read their darling Nietzsche, in that case.

>>2604176
Yes, I do. I'm sorry. Some faggot linked here on /a/ for some reason and I felt the need to click it.
>>>/a/65088664

this entire tread is a subjective narrative and I'm not going to regard it. In fact i'm going to start my own thread that will be much more relevant than this as it is no longer the avent-gard and is now the statis-quo

>>2603959
Shut up, you don't even know what half those words mean you hipster faggot.

>>2604184

Clearly you don't understand this threads Raison d'être.

>>2604003
>>2604042
>Following from these, postmodernism is positivism made literature, metaphysics and poetry of the verificationists.

>>2604145
Also I don't want to depress you. I find drifting aimlessly to be incredibly empowering in a certain sense. When your universe is defined in a certain way you are limited by your understanding of it and your place within it but in the context of the absurd you can reconcile limitless potential. And for me the concept of limitless potential is actually very encouraging and it gives me hope in moments of despair.

As for Nietzsche, I am Plebian and I've admitted to that but one time I was deciding whether or not to read Nietzsche based on his alleged postmodern connections. After I researched his association with the movement I concluded that postmodernism had simply co-opted a lot of his ideas into the realm of postmodernism. But I guess I'll ask /lit/ is Nietzsche worth reading for someone who identifies himself as a postmodernist but isn't generally interested in reading philosophy outside of that scope?

>>2604143
There will never be anime on the level of Kieslowski because he was a fourth rate filmmaker

I hope you guys realize that none of you are any good at writing and you all sound like retarded hipster jerks.

>>2604193
I was going to read nietzsche but than I looked up the eternal regress and laughed

>>2604181
Postmodernism isn't a theory or a philosophy. It's just the structure of an argument. Certain postmodernist writers will have to say different or opposite things to say about it.

There isn't a specific thesis that applies to postmodernism. What there is is the theme. What is said about that theme is a free form of expression.

>>2604200
and you sound like a dumbass with nothing interesting or relevant to add to the discourse.

OP:

But what do you mean by "debate"?

On a serious note, what do you think of logic in all his forms (symbolic, formal, modal)? Do you think it solve any of our language and communication problems?

What do you think is the most important philosophical problem humanity is facing today?

Also, I saw your post >>2604096
>Science has provided us with many wondrous technologies that have improved our lives but now we're on the down-slope, we hit the apex and now science is creating its own problems with the degradation of the environment and our own dehumanization.
Care to elaborate or give any example of this?

Please don't bring atheism mentioning science. Thanks

>>2604255
not op, but a guy studying phil of mathematics.
weve turned away from ideal languages a great while ago, so nowadays logicians and philosophers of language do not share as much work as before.

>>2604261

That's very interesting. Care to share some insights or readings about what your colleagues work nowadays?

>>2604277
mathematical philosophy basically applies mathematics to problems of philosophy the same way physicists apply mathematics to natural phenomena. current topics are: truth-values of statements. logic (monaletheistic vs. paraconsistent),modal logic is researched aswell, as is propabilistic logic. phil of mind: applying graph theory to neural networks. list goes on.
if youre interested id start off with some intro to mathematical logic, then go for frege, russel, wittgenstein, quine, carnap, skolem.

>>2604292

What's the difference between philosophy of mathematics and analytical philosophy?

>>2604297
they go hand in hand pretty much.

>>2604297
They're integrated and hardly separable.

We strive for elegance after all.

Analytical philosophy is what the plumber draws with a pencil on your wall. Then he finishes fitting the boiler, leaves, and you erase it.

So this is what postmodernism is.

Well, I guess I can get behind this.

Nice list of PoMo anime going here, I would argue that Excel Saga is postmodern sort of,

I just finished watching NGE and it was awesome, could someone recommend me more weirder PoMo anime?