/lit/ - Literature

>implying cultural identity is the same as individual identity

American blacks have no culture independent of white influence, they retain no memory of their African history and "black culture" is nothing more than the reactionary vestiges of slavery
Minorities either assimilate, become a majority, or they remain oppressed. Those are the only choices. There is no such thing as multiculturalism, which is a moot point here because blacks don't even have a culture of the own.

>without giving up any sign that he emerged from a black culture

Elaborate

You have a valid point, OP, but expect this thread to be invaded by the racist stormfags from /pol/

That really is the wrong way to look at things.

You see, it's all about cultural perception. Professions like lawyer, doctor, professor and politician shun "black culture" because black culture is percieved as incompatible with all these things.

You're talking about black men aping white culture, but the truth is, there is no white culture. If a black man was to, say, run for mayor, of course he'd be seen favorably if he was polite, well-mannered, controlled and clear.

The real question, and the real root of racial clash, is why is it that black people have adopted a culture that shows disdain for such positive characteristics.

>>2571472
What parts of this 'black culture' are you referring to? This is all very vague

>>2571472

Its called enculturation. If I moved to Lesotho and wanted to be a Zulu medicine man I would have to become lose my anglo-american cultural traits in order to be accepted in my practice. This is how initiation in any cultural institution regardless of place or time works. Don't expect it to change since it would undermine the usage of cultural institutions across the board.

>>2571489

And you're an expert on black culture or the lack thereof because....

>inb4 i knew some black kids in school
>inb4 i saw something on tv
>inb4 by uncle told me

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~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Repost this if ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ you are a beautiful strong black woman ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ who don’t need no man ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
╚═════════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ════════════════╝

Considering all professionals act in a similar manner it may just be that choosing such a career path means you must conduct yourself in a certain way? Especially if you're a Doctor...

"Uncle Tom" is a really effective way for the black community, which has spent much of the time since the Civil Right's movement degrading and making excuses for it, to label those who deviate from the typical cultural norms and find success doing it as Benedict Arnolds. It's basically a way for them to say, "No, you're the one who got it wrong, not us." It's shitty, because it sorta illustrates that a segment of that community just isn't interested in really improving its conditions the only sustainable way.

Which really is sort of a shame.

Also, it's not unusual that groups of people with strong cohesion and cultural identity have had to give up some of that to assimilate to the larger American culture. The same would be true elsewhere, if any other nation were a melting pot like ours is. If there are elements that black people aren't willing to give up to "move up" in life, so to speak, that's fine, but that may also hold them back. So goes the game.

>>2571489

So did they just like, forget all their culture on the boat ride over, or something?

>>2571518

We've never been a melting pot.

>>2571520
okay that was a really long time ago, calm down
most of the pure african culture that slaves carried with them has been watered down and just about disappeared in our modern world

>>2571505
ethnic minorities that immigrate to the United States retain the cultural practices they learned in their origin country, and pass those practices on to their children
American blacks, however, are descended from slaves that were forcibly uprooted and never allowed to learn about their cultural history. Modern "black" culture exists as an combination of the subservient, dependent attitude of slave-era blacks with the suspicious and reactionary attitudes of civil-rights era blacks
black culture is and has ever been nothing more than a reaction to white culture

Most people, independent of race, tend to emulate the mores of the majority of the area they inhabit.

Most black people that want to be respected act accordingly. Same thing with whites. You don't see ghetto gang bangers, trailer park trash cast-offs or otaku doing things that require someone to trust you to do your job without abandoning the worst traits of those sub-cultures.

I think that
>>2571475
>>2571500
>>2571504
Have the same idea, and I just didn't know how to articulate it in fewer words.

>>2571529

>most of the pure african culture that slaves carried with them has been watered down and just about disappeared in our modern world

Can you cite material that says it has? Because I can cite material that says it hasn't.

>>2571520
the black that were taken as slaves were predominantly from the lower class within their african tribes, so their connection to their culture history was already weak
once enslaved their language was destroyed, their children were regularly taken away from at an early age, and they were forcibly converted to Christianity

>>2571532

>American blacks, however, are descended from slaves that were forcibly uprooted and never allowed to learn about their cultural history.

This is not true. There were plenty of people that were aware of, and transmitted African culture to their fellow slaves. See the survival of African folk traditions among the Gullah, for example.

>>2571532
In many cases, they didn't know a cultural identity even when in their native land. Many African tribes had slaves as well that they traded.

Its not "black culture" its the culture of poverty. Socioeconomics > ethnicity

>>2571549

So we're just ignoring that a lot of it can be traced back to Africa?

>>2571518
This.
>Also, it's not unusual that groups of people with strong cohesion and cultural identity have had to give up some of that to assimilate to the larger American culture.
Especially this.

Everyone had to do this. Lumping all white people together is ignorant. Its like lumping all Asian people together despite many of the countries of origin do not get along well and have vastly different cultures. Just like 'black culture' being cobbled together with no real link back to anything in Africa. Hell Africans in the few stable regions of that continent typically have better values like education.

Civilized society with values of intelligence and politeness in public is not 'white culture'. It was an idea built upon by many nations across the globe.

If we aren't divided by color and overcoming that we divide on other things. Jews assimilated into a largely christian nation, Catholics and Protestants had to get along, English and Irish, and so forth.

Deep down Uncle Tom is a term of jealously that someone gave a damn to improve their life rather then wait around hoping it would improve. What black culture has become is a series of bad habits and behaviors that exist to differentiate a people that lost most of their heritage and don't want to be anything like those that caused that to happen. But that is still letting an event from centuries ago shape who someone is as a person and as part of a group.

>>2571552

>Just like 'black culture' being cobbled together with no real link back to anything in Africa

Do you guys just assume this is true? Because there's a whole lot of research that points to the contrary.

Yes, why should a professional be expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner?

I'd love to pay large amounts of money to an attorney that sags his pants at his knees, speaks in black vernacular, and has gold teeth! Why not? It's just his culture, I'm sure he will be just as effective as any other lawyer lolololol.

Seriously, why are you even asking this question op?

OP, I would suggest reading up on the controversy among the black community during the Harlem Renaissance. At the time, African-Americans were torn between acting "white-washed" and writing with great grammatical precision and poise, and "Africanizing"; giving themselves African-sounding names and contacting their "roots." The latter resulted in very self-aware, culturally-referential works. Zora Neale Hurston was, in a way, a bridge between the two. She wrote well and carried herself in a manner befitting a modern urbanite, yet she wrote with open and frank attention to the nature of black culture.

Consequently, she was criticized by both sides of the controversy. The "whitewashed" writers criticized her for portraying African-Americans as bumbling morons and incompetent control freaks, while the "roots" African-Americans believed her to be sycophantic.

It's actually still a very touchy issue when brought up, even now.

>>2571556
Which aspects of black culture today would you say are rooted in Africa, as opposed to the last century?

I'm asking also because I'm wondering wheter these aspects have to be repressed as well for a black man to have a succesful career in a white community.

what is important is not how much the black person conforms with whites in order to succeed, but rather the extent to which he is able harmonize the black and white identities
contrast Clarence Thomas with Barack Obama

>>2571556
[citation needed]

I can point out I've not seen a hiphop artist out of Africa with new Nike shoes encouraging people to go for long shots like playing basketball over an actual education.

I have however had a couple of work associates from a couple African countries and do live near a large population of black people who if asked probably couldn't name 5 countries in Africa, common languages used there, or know anything of its history, number of cultures, influence of artificial borders.

true fact: Whenever they tried "back to africa" programs, the former american slaves immediately enslaved any african natives they encountered under the plantation model

>>2571565
>white community

You mean a society built on money. Or do hill billies with no class succeed by virtue of being more purely white from inbreeding?

>>2571573
you show me a hillbilly that's "pure white" and i'll show you a magical crystal dragon that lives on Mars and grants wishes

>>2571573
I was asking under OP's definition of "white culture". My bad, I should've used quotes then.

>>2571565

Well just for an easy example, contemporary black music is easily traced to African tradition. Rapping traces back to Signifying (playing the dozens, etc.), which traces back to a folk tradition relating to Esu, the trickster god responsible for interpretation (particularly the interpretation of palm nuts used for divination).

Call and response style that we see in some contemporary hip hop can be seen in the folk traditions of the Gullah (if you ever read about their prayer services or their folk tales, you'll see how participatory they are), which can be traced back to the gold coast where the Gullah people originate (there was actually one particular research project that traced a particular funeral song of the Gullah to a contemporary tribe in Africa, but I forget what it was called).

Music is the easy one, admittedly, but other elements require a bit more elaboration, I think.

>>2571472
Because "black culture" is being a subhuman ape

>>2571581
And just show me the same qualifications with a black person. And we can both ride on flying pigs. Also nice way to dodge the point that a group of relatively white people can be equally unsuccessful when components of their social structure often involve large amounts of beer and weed.

>>2571582
Sorry my mistake.

>>2571532
>that were forcibly uprooted

the reality is that they were slaves in africa and purchased by jewish slave traders.

>>2571571

>true fact: Whenever they tried "back to africa" programs, the former american slaves immediately enslaved any african natives they encountered under the plantation model

Please cite this, sound like a really cool piece of history.

Oooh. I have that movie on my laptop, OP. I should watch it soon.

>>2571593
what i meant is that you will find that the majority of bottom-class whites in the south and Midwest, commonly referred to as "crackers," "rednecks," or "hillbillies" are all part Injun and everyone knows that they are even more economically and culturally impoverished than even the blacks

>>2571606
look @ history of liberia

>>2571614
Notice how slandering poor whites is considered perfectly acceptable? And liberals wonder why we call them anti-white.

Also: I'm not sure about this theory of yours.

This is clearly anecdotal, but pretty interesting (to me). My wifes medical school has a lot of black applicants and students, both from Africa, and from the US. The US ones are there on affirmative action, the african ones are there by merit.

In the first year, there were so many african-american students that they had two large clubs, like 50 people. But they got decimated academically, and by 4th year there were only like 6 left. The namibians, nigerians, etc, absolutely dominated and were in most of the honor societies (top 10% academically). Their parents came to graduation in impeccable suites with (i shit you not) cheetah skin sashes and shit.

Not sure what it says about ops case, but this reminded me of it, in that the African students were proud and culturally vibrant, and successful professionally, while the afro-american kids got smashed.

What identity do you mean? Is there some intrinsic black quality I'm unaware of? Intelligence is intelligence. I don't think any of us give a fuck if you eat watermelon and chicken.

>>2571606

For that matter, prior to the transatlantic slave trade, africans were enslaving other africans for the arabs. Look at history of great zimbabwe etc

>>2571614
And I was saying everyone is pretty much mixed at this point if they look far enough back in the American timeline. And anyone that bothers to take the time use grammar on a resume can elevate their status.

Is it likely when their influences are shit because they live in a bad area? Well no, but that is entirely independent of racial backgrounds.

Does race perhaps play a role in this? Yes genetics aren't fair and anyone one in the science community that ventures into race territory is usually intimidated out of further work so we don't know for sure. What we do know is manners get you further because regardless of heritage being loud, speaking poorly, and acting hostile as a result of self pity makes anyone as ass. If one group has chosen to promote those as valued qualities, then well darwinism can sort that out.

>>2571633

look at Rushton's work...people that venture into the scientific racism are not intimidated out, they are ridiculed for using unreliable sources, poor research methodology, and basically being a psuedoscientist in order to further a political agenda. It is clear that biological race is non-existant (also so is intelligence in a quantifiable sense, that research comes out of the military in order put soldiers into the right jobs...psychologists took the idea and pushed it too extremes that are not supportable).

>>2571621
But you see, this is because those Nigerians, regardless of being African, are the cream of the crop in their country (and probably their continent). How much do you think it costs to enroll in an American med school? Out of Africa? Hundreds of thousands of dollars, where the average African makes less than 10k a year. The Africans applying to med school in America are literally the top .01% in their own country, and that's why they came to America.

Bits of songs and broken drums
Are all he could recall
So he spoke to me
In a bastard tongue
Carried on the silence of the guns

It’s been a long long time
Since they first came
And marched through our village
They taught us to forget our past
And live the future in their image

They said
I should learn to speak a little bit of english
Don’t be scared of a suit and tie.
Learn to walk in the dreams of the foreigner
-- I am a third world child

The outworld’s dreams are the currency
That grip the city streets
I live them out
But I have my own
Hidden somewhere deep inside of me

In between my father’s fields
And the citadels of the rule
Lies a no-man’s land which I must cross
To find my stolen jewel.

They said
I should learn to speak a little bit of english
Maybe practise birth control
Keep away from controversial politics
So to save my third world soul

>>2571675
uh, no, what sort of world are you even living in? There is huge leftist backlash against anyone who does anything related to race, beyond the baseless assertion that you are making that "race doesn't exist"

Just because it's arbitrary where you put the lines, doesn't mean the differences do not exist. That is a fallacious conclusion.

>>2571693
The dichotomy between the beauty of the writing and the attached image are staggering. Beautiful. This post will go down with Ode to Joy, and the Sistine Chapel as one of the greatest works of art in human existence...

Everyone emulates those that held power before.

Unfortunately this entire thread is full of those that are stuck looking at someone in the education industry as their symbol of power.

How stupid you must all feel.

/thread

>>2571699

It is fallacious to assert that the races you see in contemporary culture are categorically different. Read some physical anthropology I suggest starting with C Loring Brace. Are you talking about the backlash from the Bell Curve? Those studies had major problems...beyond liberals getting their jimmies rustled.

What the fuck is "white culture" black people whine about having to concede to anyways? How to I become a part of all this "white culture" I've been missing out on?

>>2571745
there are just talking about normative culture...doesn't help since it is undefinable as well...however I bet you can recognize black culture, in their eyes perhaps they see a white culture that you don't. Look into emic and etic culture for more on this type of gestalt shift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF6o2DmdPBY

>>2571733
>It is fallacious to assert that the races you see in contemporary culture are categorically different.

They are pretty obviously different, and you especially see it in extremes such as competitive sports or intellectual pursuits.

>>2571757

Seriously, read some physical anthropology. You really don't know how ignorant you sound. Starting thinking in clines instead of essences and you might just start to get contemporary studies in human variation. Again, Brace is the best place to start for this.

>>2571745

>What the fuck is "water" amphibians whine about having to concede to anyways? How to I, as a fish, become a part of all this "water" I've been missing out on?

>>2571699

Look at it this way...if I were to start writing chemistry journal articles under the phlogostonic paradigm I would be rightly ridiculed. Racial realism is the same way in academic physical anthropology. It is assuming a falsified theory is correct.

>>2571785
Would you classify "black culture" as an easily definable, monolithic entity?

>>2571798

more like a chain of family resemblances

>>2571807
That's the thing though - there really are no resemblances. So called "white culture" covers everything from reality tv to art house films, Harry Potter to western philosophy, and pop rock to minimalism. To try and categorize these things together as moving in some single direction is ridiculous.

>>2571821

has a problem understanding the concept of culture

confusing culture with the products of culture is an instance of category confusion

Culture is the set of non-biological adaptions to the external environment, it includes behavior and beliefs...

>>2571821

You also have a problem with the concept of family resemblance... there is no implied teleology, fuck its an argument against teleology and ontological realism.

I am beginning to think that arguing with you is pointless

>>2571836
It's the Internet, brah. All argument is pointless. There's just no reason for it.

>Why is it that in order for a black man to be respected he must forfeit all traces of black culture and instead ape the manners of the white man, so that his white wage slave masters say "oh, what a good little negro, you deserve a promotion!"

kind of reminds me of the transformation by kafka