/lit/ - Literature

>ideals
reported

The creative nothing.

i dont have one

batman

The heroic artist who has the courage to realise his vision in spite of the society of plebeians trying to scrounge off him and force him into mediocrity.

>>2549290
As in the fully realised egoist? No longer subject to ideals and such, not even defining itself, free of all the spooks?

Or do you mean just like however it is, plagued by spooks or not?

the ascetic

The goal for each individual should be to be able to live with themselves, with the choices they make. Anyone who remains true to a consistent character. I'm not saying he's the ideal man. I wouldn't know where to draw that judgmental line and I'm in no position to do so. But, for example, take Hitchens, a lot of his actions and beliefs are questionable. Where ever in particular you might place judgement depend son your perspective--whether you were a teetotal or a believer. So long as we are autonomous, society will have these conflicts of judgement between subjectivities. As far as I can see it, the only 'ideal' we can try for is to remain true to ourselves. I don't agree with everything Hitchens said, like for instance I think he reduced religion excessively to a totalitarian regime, but his ideas in each aspect of life where consistent with every other and I think that's why people of divergent political and religious persuasions admired him for his intellectual consistency. Contrast that with his contemporary public intellectuals for whom you can spot logical leaps and inconsistencies in thought and practice. You can challenge Hitchens, and indeed everyone, for their fundamental ideals and opinions. And you should. Everyone's individually unique. but if their lives followed a consistent theme then we can say they are authentic and content with themselves (or rather they can say it). It's something you have to determine for yourself, because external mind will be preoccupied with the 'objective' disagreement. Self scrutiny only goes so far. We need others to reinforce the merits and question the faults of our thoughts but in order to idealise himself, man in his decision making can only try to retain consistency of feeling.

I like Plato's take. He basically said that a wise man would be in charge; that would be great because we wouldn't have so many idiots in office.

>>2549360
You think wise men are without bias? No, that idea would fucking suck for everyone but the wise man and those with convergent ideals. There's no single ladder of intelligence that people can climb and all of a sudden they're fucking brilliant in every walk of life and experts on all issues.
Who is your 'wise' man accountable to?

>>2549360
So, you're a fascist then?

The best dictator is better than the best democracy, but we lack any reliable mechanism for selecting a good dictator. Democracy guarantees mediocrity, and a better alternative, if possible at all, has not yet been invented.

>>2549293

lol. lame. so he/she could reflect her existential angst of being human in one way or another.

>>2549374
>those with convergent ideals
then you make the people have the same ideals as you. you think the vast majority of the population has any more agency than a moth faced with a candle?

the philosopher king will come in the form of a sentient machine. the question is whether the machine will consider us worthy of being ruled.

>>2549410
'Worthy' suggests that doing so might require an unreasonable amount of effort.

>>2549415

Not necessarily. I often wipe a speck of dust of one of my possessions because it displeases me. It costs me very little effort. I have no qualm with doing so.

Such an entity might as well dismiss things or lifeforms that disagree with it's tastes.

I aspire to be a Cynic. Diogenes would have been closest to the ideal Cynic, and his legend makes for a nice example and direction. However, I don't think that it is necesary for a cynic to be a homeless beggar. Hence the following anecdote:

>In winter Diogenes walked barefoot in the snow. In summer he rolled in the hot sand. He did this to harden himself against discomfort.
>"But aren't you overdoing it a little?" a disciple asked.
>"Of course," replied Diogenes, "I am like a teacher of choruses who has to sing louder than the rest in order they may get the right note."

I do seek to find a humble dwelling and live with a minimum of possessions, work a little and spend the rest of my time training my mind and body.

I'm not an idealist but I hate weakness, but I use that word on a personal sense. I find weak people who try to avoid responsibility for their own acts or people who need to convince themselves about the "rightness" of their acts, or people who need some ideas to lead their lives, also people who fear stupid things, and boring people... I don't know how to define it exactly but when I see what I call weakness I recognize it immediately and loath invades my mind. This is what I hate, and I suppose that by my hate I define negatively what's my "ideal" of person.

>>2549536
"What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome." -Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist §2

>>2549536
>>2549688

Negatively defining yourself is slave morality as fuck though.

>>2549380
sigh, if only things turned out differently.

>>2549725
I didn't definite myself though.

>>2549502
The Cynics were the extremists who existed to demonstrate the Stoic concept that one can be happy with no possessions and no home, according to Epictetus. To be a non-extreme Cynic would essentially be to practise Stoicism.

"'But how is it possible that a man destitute, naked, without house or home, squalid, unattended, an outcast, can lead a prosperous life?' See; God hath sent us one, to show in practice that it is possible. 'Take notice of me, that I am without a country, without a house, without an estate, without a servant; I lie on the ground; have no wife, no children, no coat; but have only earth and heaven and one poor cloak. And what need I? Am not I without sorrow, without fear? Am not I free? Did any of you ever see me disappointed of my desire, or incurring my aversion? Did I ever blame God or man? Did I ever accuse any one? Have any of you seen me look discontented? How do I treat those whom you fear and of whom you are struck with awe? Is it not like poor slaves? Who that sees me does not think that he sees his own king and master?' This is the language, this the character, this the undertaking, of a Cynic."

>>2549767
Negatively defining your values is slave morality as fuck too. You can just say that you value strength however instead of despising weakness and you're right back on top with the healthy folk.

>>2549788
I don't really value strength, and the point wasn't my values. We were talking about the "ideal of person", and the closest thing I have to an "ideal of person" (due to the fact that I don't really believe in a particular "ideal of person") is the retroactive effect of hating certain things, which I call weakness. I can't tell you exactly what's the right thing to do, because I don't thing there is a "right" thing to do (whatever funny to you... or something like this, I guess), but I can tell you what I hate.

>>2549783
Stoicism is a derivative of Cynicism though. I think there are important differences between being a moderate Cynic and a Stoic besides the degree of asceticism, in the sense that Stoicism in general comes with a lot more theory and abstractions than Cynicism. Before the Stoics existed there have been moderate Cynics too, who lived in a house and had an occupation.

I've read Epictetus though and have nothing but praise for him. He reeks of the simple minded wisdom of the Cynics. Very practical without useless philosophising. I'd say he was on the Cynic side of later Stoicism, especially when taking his own life and circumstances in consideration.

>>2549804
>I don't thing
ZI don't thinK

>>2549807
You are right. It's basically the "Chrysippus-isation" of Stoicism that turns you off it? That is, the fact that it is quite so systematised in comparison to Cynicism?

>>2549816
Yes. The whole metaphysics and god stuff and other excessive theorising kind of contradicts the simplicity and undisturbedness which lead to virtue/happiness in my opinion. The type of Cynicism and Stoicism I love is the one that knows better than to let oneself be tempted by such mental masturbation and running in circles. It's more quietist than inquisitive. That said, I can't really hate a man who reportedly died of laughter watching his drunk donkey eat figs.

I am torn between Buddhist-stoic sage ideals of controlling negative emotions and reaching a peaceful/calm state and the Nietzschean/Romantic ideal of the self creating artist. I want to be able to create a middle ground that melds both ideals though I don't even know if that's possible.

>>2550288
wouldn't the middle ground be just to realize that everything is transient and illusory then do the artist thing anyway

>>2550306
somewhat - I really like the zen Buddhist monk Ikkyu Sojun - look him up if you're interested. He was extremely life affirming and playful (fucked whores drank sake) and yet also was a very wise zen monk.

If anyone is both dionysus and buddha it was that dude

>Lurking anon from /tg/ that loves the Synergists exoplanet colony from the scifi pen and paper rpg "Eclipse Phase"

My ideal "person" is the sum total of a group mind, that is composed of calmly focused, rational, and unbiased secular people. They are all heavily enhanced through genetic engineering, implanted devices, and nanotechnology. These people will generally have far greater cognition and concentration than humans today by virtue of their augmentations and mesh networked brains . They also can individually maintain their individuality whilst accessing each others memories, experiences, and thoughts. Together as a society, this group mind would posses the "purest" form of direct democracy.

>>2550288

How about looking into Secular-Buddhism and using that as your "vantage point"?

>>2550288
>>2550334
>>2550392

From the makers of Hinduism for White People and Neo-Paganism, it's "Secular Buddhism": All of the hipster cred, none of the discipline or rigor!

>>2550408

I fail to see how avoiding blind faith and other religious traits--in addition stereotypes like "everything is an illusion" or avoiding reality--and then analytically studying the teachings of Siddhattha Gotama from an academic and/or philosophical and pragmatic/scientific stand point--taking in account for the time period and culture of this person (assuming that he was actually a historical figure)--lack discipline or rigor.

>>2550385

> Man-made superior humans or beings

No matter what, they were always be a rebellion to these people, no matter how efficient or beneficial they are. There will always be a counter force that will oppose the potential or who will oppose the success. People always fear the future, even if we craft it ourselves. It's sad really.

>>2550465
What if this group was made from a selection of only those who wished to be a part of it? Then all future members would be indoctrinated with little question.

>>2550465
Read again:
>They also can individually maintain their individuality whilst accessing each others memories, experiences, and thoughts.
>can individually maintain their individuality
> maintain their individuality

If a member wishes to either the create a firewall of sorts for screening out certain memories and trace emotions/thoughts from others accessing it, or leave the group mind completely; the majority (being calmly focused, rational, and unbiased) will allow them to do so. This mindstate will have also began the same way >>2550484 describes as it would be best for people who were originally calm, rational, unbiased, and secular to join it of their own accord. It also makes sense that, on occasion, separate group minds would splinter off and--rarely--completely leave to develop elsewhere along with those seeking 100% individuality (vs the 80% individuality for those that make "firewalls" for themselves within the group mind). Existing in the group mind also provides a "decent shot at immortality" via ones memories remaining and potentially living as a mental or digital persona within it after death.

This guy. Can't even imagine the freedom of having nothing matter.

I am the perfect person, crawling through the shit with everyone else

>>2550448

Mere study isn't very rigorous at all.

Reading scripture in translation without any intention of actually subscribing to the belief system it delineates doesn't make you an adherent of a religion, "secular" or otherwise.

>>2550606
>tes doesn't make you an adherent of a religion
>an adherent of a religion

The whole point is to take the religious nonsense out of it in the first place and then find what can be empirically or pragmatically tested toward either benefiting or not benefiting (and either being a notion that actually holds weight or is pure fancy) someone. What is left is not even something to strictly follow, but rather a guideline toward creating your own path--that will be practiced with self discipline.

>>2550527

Why not?

>implying anything does

>>2550408
>>2550448
>>2550606
>>2550622

You're both wasting your time in the only life you'll ever have. Its better to just be mindful of life and the moment than fall prey to what you are both yapping on about.

>>2550622
>The whole point is to take the religious nonsense out of it in the first place and then find what can be empirically or pragmatically tested toward either benefiting or not benefiting (and either being a notion that actually holds weight or is pure fancy) someone.

That's what people have attempted to do to Raja Yoga; you can sign up for a yoga class at the YMCA and I can pretty much guarantee that you won't hear anything about Ishvara or Patanjali. Are the instructors of those classes "secular Hindus"? No. Are the asanas used in those classes any more beneficial from a purely physical standpoint than any other regimen of stretches? Probably not. Same with your empirical Buddhism. It isn't "creating your own path"... attempting to reconcile a wisdom tradition with dull-witted materialist reductionism is pointless because both wisdom and tradition are anathema to materialist-reductionists. You're left with a shell of a religion that serves little purpose other than to lend authenticity to whatever silly philosophy you spout while claiming adherence to it. That brings us back to the remark I made earlier about hipster cred.

>>2550657

Everybody on 4chan is wasting their time. Isn't that why we come here?

>>2550408
>>2550606

Non-religious anon who came for >>2550385 and proud! I don't need any religion bullshit to live my life. That includes gits like >>2550622 who still cling to part of it like an insane person.

I want to hear and discuss more about this transhumanist group mind idea.

>>2550694

>Religion is BS! I'm so progressive and intellectually liberated! Too old for fairy tales lol xDDD

>But hey, tell me more about some futurist wet dream in which individual consciousnesses are able to connect to something transcendent and absolute; that isn't like religion at all!

>>2550703
>to something transcendent and absolute; that isn't like religion at all!
>transcendent and absolute

There is nothing "transcendent and absolute" about a group mind. In the fictitious case of what >>2550385 was talking about, it seemed to be a hypothetical extension of what already occurs between bloggers, life loggers and social network users are doing to today. In that these people are already to the best of their ability sharing their external memory and experiences with the rest of the world. Don't forget that humans are also a social species and thus we already in a sense possess group mind tendencies. As for that "wet dream" crap, stop taking things so literally. I love transhumanism solely as idea seeds for writing and writing about fiction.

>>2550606
You do know that the buddha always said: don't believe it because it said by me or it is said by a teacher or it stands in some (holy) books. Only follow it because you see yourself that it works if you practise it. Right?

>>2550725
>bloggers, life loggers and social network users are doing to today

I certainly don't equate the concept of group mind to the digital equivalent of people wandering out of their front doors, onto their lawn in their PJs at some random time of the day and rambling into the ether, often oblivious to those around them.

I think what people have to realise about social media today is that it is not particularly social, it's a thing of the here and now and hardly "the future" as it is in reality, primarily each individual sitting alone typing their thoughts into the void at an arbitrary time.

That others are potentially there to react, usually after the fact, demonstrates no collective awareness or will.

Group video conferencing would be the closest thing I can think of and yet it is decidedly non group mind in practice as inevitably norms emerge such as dominant participants, which are quite counter to any form of collectivism.

>>2550334
Ikkyu is great. I found it very reasuring how he combined the zen outlook/realisation but didn't combine it with a saintly way of life. It's a pleasant divorce of insight and ethics. He's a sage and a rake at once.

The Samurai could have been said to have created a likewise hybrid, that of the warrior and the sage. I'd say is perfectly doable to both realise emptiness and strive towards the realisation of your values. It's basically what all Buddhists do anyway.

Part of me feels there should be no such thing as an "ideal person", that people should be free to live however they want and that there are multiple ways of being happy.

The other part of me thinks that getting too caught up in materialism and self-indulgence is a sure fire way to be unhappy and therefore one should, as the Gnostics said, live as a passerby, neither fearing the world nor loving it excessively and not allowing it to have power over you. Also living with honesty and consistent principles.

I'm not sure how to resolve this, so basically I don't worry about how others live and just worry about myself.

>>2550936
How would your ideal self be then?

>Man is something that shall be overcome.... Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman -- a rope over an abyss... What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end.

Idealism = objectivity = inertia. The only value is in the process of revaluating itself. Any society can promote or experience this. A good society is one that promotes it more highly, eg. a network of city states with small enough populations to be "personal," to promote nationalism and loyalty and rivalry and jealousy, etc., and a tradition of participatory government.

>>2549284
Billions and billions of townships

>>2550968
Your ideal person is a collection of settlements?

Hurr durr knight of faith
Please kill me burr to lie with 70.000 fathoms of water below

>>2551230
So you're a Kierkegardian then?

>>2550961
Basically the situation of the ancient Greeks. Do you think this can be in this day and age?

The ideal being is not necessarily relevant, as I see it. All is as it should be, all will be as it will. If I die having done nothing, it is because I should. If I die on the threshold of greatness, it is because I should. There is no fighting the mechanics of nature; each act spawns from the one preceding it. The conceptions of our ideal beings can never exist, and nobody, even those we might consider enlightened, or better than us, can ever honestly call themselves the embodiment of perfection, or even claim to approach it.

Wow, so much egoism and superiority here.

My ideal person? Interesting dude with huge collection of interests, versed in all the sciences and arts.

It would be this really abstract an ill-definable being; omnipotent and ominecent, infinite and eternal; capable of anything yet does nothing and is entirely callus of its results. Its going to bloom like a fungus and spore off parts of itself, looking like man and another part like a spirit which it then infects through looping logic and metaphysical improbability.

He would have a very simple name, yet firm, like James Bond, Ronald Regan or God

What a lovely thread. I love you /lit/.

I like zen buddhism but I am in love and practice stoicism.

the ideal person has achieved Zen and understand implicitly the necessity of love and unity--he looks only to better others and never feels someone is unworthy of improvement. He sees all evil and selfishness as a sad confusion that can ameliorated through sincerity, acceptance, and compassion.

>>2552073

What if those three don't quite do the trick? What if baking cakes for your lost souls merely fills them with contempt? What if what your ideal being considers compassion is, to them, charity, and consequently their pride and self-loathing leads them to eat him alive?

>>2552107
This is what always happens to sagely people if they aren't protected by powerful armed people.

>>2550606

I don't think you understand how Buddhism works... There is no fixed dogma to be blindly believed. Instead there is only guidelines and notions that you test with for yourself to see if they work for you, and then you only practice what actually does work for you. This even applies to the core ideas such as four ennobling truths. If you do not see these things in your own life, from your own experiences, your pragmatic experimentation and you then thus feel that they do not work for you; don't do them. Anyone is welcome to come to, try out, and then leave if they so wish--without any silly ridicule common in other religions such as Christianity.

Not all religions need to have dogma, "blind faith" or deities to count as religious...

>ideals

>>2552210

This is right. Though the thread it was posted on is beyond recovery and I must therefore sage.

>>2552210
This!

The Übermensch can be any of those things.

>>2552210
But how far can you stray from orthodox Buddhism and still be a Buddhist?

>>2552363
How far towards orthodox buddhism can you stray and still be Buddhist?

>>2552366
You must be a great zen master.

>>2552363
Like I said, what works for you. Go to as close to the source of Buddha's teachings, interpret what you can from your time period and cultures stand point, and then do >>2552210. Such is how those "orthodox" sects are born. You are YOUR OWN master...

>>2552381
I have been struck in the head enough times.

>>2552384
Well in that case I'm a Buddhist who has renounced the four noble truths and altruist ethics and has embraced materialist egoism while still maintaining the concepts of flux and emptiness.

That doesn't really sound right, does it? I think it's important to draw a line somewhere. At least it would be for the reputation of Buddhism as to not get high jacked by all kinds of nasty buggers.

>>2552388
By the stick of compassion?

>>2552393
I didn't get its name, but it stung enough to be compassion.

>>2552392
Meh. All that matters to me is if even 1% of the teachings--and your individual interpretations thereof--in some way help reduce your suffering... Like all words, Buddhism or Buddhist are merely labels.

>>2552405
If a label can be applied to everything, it should be applied to nothing.

>>2552412

Was that a koan?

>>2552423
No, but that was.

>>2552429
So a Koan is just the act of switching around someones statement to trip them up, and then--hopefully--make them think more about what they are talking or thinking about?

bump

>>2553611

a Koan is just to get you kick-started on something simple: thinking about how you think, and why. the rest is up to you; trite but true.

>>2553760
Is >>2552210 correct?

The Penisman.

>>2553767

why don't you think about it?

Big tits and a nice, juicy ass that bounces when she walks.

>>2552392
You should form a new true sect of Buddhism.

>>2553611
that's more "the socratic method" a koan is story that teaches the practitioner who contemplates it what a zen master is through his actions, then the practitioner must find their own path to act accordingly.

Call me dumb if you will, but I think of George Carlin as a philospher to some extent.
He also embodies (or, at least, describes,) my "ideal person". This is the (wo)man who has a sort of nihlism, yet knowing this, still puts on a cynical smile and enjoys their "tickets to the freak show".

>>2553786
I concur and love the mindset of: "We're all going to die so fucking pipe down, stick to reality, and enjoy your exceedingly short and only shot of existence."

>>2553815
Reading that I just now realized that judgement of the dead of in Christianity is a metaphor for the eyes of history.

We have only one life to perform the actions by which we will be judged for all eternity. This makes no sense in terms of a compassionate god who only lets us beg for forgiveness right up until we die, then its all frozen in place, but as a metaphor for how people will remember us, it makes sense.

Some will smiled upon, some will be condemned, but for most souls its just the ignominy of purgatory and limbo.

>>2553822

Fascinating thought that. I wish more of them christians looked at their ideas in that metaphorical light so that they would stop taking their stories literally. So instead of the fanatical among them trying to force us to think their mythology is real, they'd just live their lives.

Though ultimately, even the "eye of history," will not last "forever"...

Bodhisattva

What I'm doing is, whenever a thought pops up, I say it's just a thought and carry on whatever I'm doing. I don't know, it works for me. It's practical if you have no attention span, I suppose :)

>>2553831
Without the eye of man what will time be? what will existence be? Forever only lasts as long as man can stand around and say "we're still here".

>>2552210
>I don't think you understand how Buddhism works... There is no fixed dogma to be blindly believed.

Who said anything about "blindness"?

Being a Buddhist does involve accepting a certain understanding of the nature of existence ("one bright pearl", etc.) and acting on that understanding in certain ways (zazen, following the five precepts, etc.)

The concepts of orthodoxy and orthopraxy exist in every legitimate wisdom tradition.The fact that Buddhism often seems to place less emphasis on these things than other traditions doesn't mean that they aren't emphasized at all.

>To sit crosslegged is to trample over the heads of all the devil heretics and become the Person within the Buddhas’ and patriarchs’ innermost precincts.

A lot of Buddhist denunciations of "over-zealousness" in practice seem to be references to raja yoga and the postures used by Hindus, not to people practicing any sort of Buddhism.

>Anyone is welcome to come to, try out, and then leave if they so wish--without any silly ridicule common in other religions such as Christianity.

Do you realize how similar Zen is to Christian esotericism? Hesychia and mushinjo mean essentially the same thing.

>>2553862
>Forever only lasts as long as man can stand around and say "we're still here".

That is actually what I meant. Though don't assume that humanity is an exclusive thing. In the vastness of the universe it does not seem altogether unlikely that other sentient life forms or their--including our future potential--machines might exist to also observe the universe. But when we homo sapiens do go extinct, what matter will such have for us, eh?

>>2553786
This

>>2553886
We have no way to gauge the probability of sentient life, we can only attempt to given sentient life. For all A, P(A|A)=1. So even were the universe infinite, the chance of sentient life could still be infinitesimal. The odds of us being here might be for all intents and purposes 0, but given that we are here, it doesn't really matter. I make no claims to alien life, maybe, maybe not, but I have rather firm suspicion that no matter what, we shall never meet another race amongst the stars, much less one we can recognize as sentient.

bump

Don't get care if no one reads this, the questions is too interesting not to answer. Sorry I'm late OP.

The ideal person is someone who always seeks to improve, and evolve, and has the willpower to do it. Someone who seeks wisdom, freedom and happiness, and tries to bestow these upon others. Someone who is filled with love, and righteous anger. These are the core properties of an ideal person, I think.

>>2554956

I am that person, and let me tell you how much of a pain in the ass it is to be like that. I've gone from many friends to no friends. I've gone from being social and having a girlfriend to sitting alone and reading. I've gone from getting compliments regularly to getting insulted and ridiculed regularly. I am all alone, and yet: I still have faith once I reach my goals that this will all be worth it.

>>2555042
Maybe you're doing it wrong. I try to be that person. I've evolved through my relationship with my girlfriend. I now understand how someone can become a better person through loving someone. Each time I see someone I would once have judged, or had reason to despise, I wonder, "what if someone loves him/her as much as I love my girlfriend". This changes things.

I don't have many friends, but I try to be a good friend. I don't care about status, or money, but I recognize their place and see their worth such as it is.

Maybe you've bought someone else's false ideals?

>>2555093

Nope, I haven't bought false ideals. It is plainly obvious that there is no true accomplishment without true struggle. Since your situation seems to devoid of that, I assume you are simply a young kid who is so enamored by your girlfriend, that you mistake this feeling of pleasure with true love, and allow the unfocused excess of that pleasure to spill out over your perceptions of others. True love is something far more significant than you think--it is absolute; if you truly loved your girlfriend, she could literally cheat on you right in front of you, and you would accept it as a necessary condition of her personal evolution. We both know this is not how you would handle it.

The ideal person is one who understands all beliefs but holds none. This ideal person attempts to understand the world through historical, anthropological, and philosophical study. Believing that his/her individual worth is neither positive nor negative, the ideal person must then choose a path that either benefits the human race or minimally disturbs it. Even if one were to believe that "nothing matters" one would still be forced to respect the idea that not all people think like that, and it's stupid to run around fucking shit up just because you're a nihilist. Because the point is no matter what your philosophy is, you'll never know if it's right and the ideal person recognizes their potential and more likely certain ability to be wrong......Fuck this. There is no ideal person. Can anybody tell me why you would want to be this ideal person? Or why this ideal person should even exist or what they would accomplish? Would this ideal man (presumably, because it just has to be right) unite the world and bring about universal peace and equality and happiness? Would the ideal man even care about these things?

>>2555226

The ideal man would bring about peace through truth because the ideal man is tired of all this bullshit that's been going on for so long, and he knows someone has to step up already and give people of all classes fair access to universal truth and prosperity. Most people are too weak to see the truth; they need guidance. The ideal man knows the truth, he's experienced it, and his only struggle is how to demonstrate this to others incontrovertibly not so they worship him, but so the world can rid itself of this utter chaos and evil that plagues all the people paying attention, as well as those unfortunate people tossed to the side who don't know any better, but certainly hope for salvation.

>>2555128
>It is plainly obvious that there is no true accomplishment without true struggle
I agree.
>Since your situation seems to devoid of that
Not devoid, but yes, I have few struggles
>a young kid who is so enamored by your girlfriend, that you mistake this feeling of pleasure with true love
that is certainly possible
>if you truly loved your girlfriend, she could literally cheat on you right in front of you, and you would accept it as a necessary condition of her personal evolution. We both know this is not how you would handle it.
You're right, I wouldn't handle it that way. I would be incredibly hurt. But I would forgive her. And after a while, after I've brought my feelings under control, I would get myself in a state in which I would see it that way.

>>2555128
>>2555226
>>2555244
Also, I'm saving your posts to think about. Write more.

>>2555265

I really doubt you would ever see it in a way where you would forgive you girlfriend, etc., etc., however, even if you did forgive her, your delay in response would be evidence of your lack of absolute love. Absolute love cannot be coaxed or willed. You either have absolute love or you don't. Most people don't. The only way to experience true love is by achieving Zen through meditation. Once Zen is achieved, even a Jew will not feel hatred towards Hitler, but instead feel great pity, and only wish to improve such evil within a person and share love instead of punishing evil the way 99.9% of the world would opt for. That is love. Everything else is just delusion in response to pleasant chemicals.

>>2555292

BTW, 226 wasn't me, the guy you're engaged with.

>>2555303
I think zen is only one way. Yes, I practice zen (i am a beginner)
>your delay in response would be evidence of your lack of absolute love
No it's not. And I don't proclaim to have absolute love for her, or anyone. There are greater height to be achieved. I do love her enough to forgive her for that, though, I am as sure as I can be without actually experiencing the situation.
>>2555300
Yeah, I thought not.

>>2555323

Zen is the only way--I can't imagine any other way to replicate what Zen offers. Did you email me for Zen meditation instructions? If so, how's it going?

>>2555333
No, I bought a book that caught my eye. I achieved some progress twice, but fell out of the habit.

>>2555337

If you are interested in Zen, please email me at tifff8@yahoo.com. I will provide instructions for Zen meditation for free. No obligation. I just think you deserve to know what true love feels like.

>>2555350
Is this nigga serious?

>>2555350
Don't get this the wrong way, but should I be comfortable sending my email to someone I met on 4chan?

>>2555244
But what if this ideal man realizes there is no universal truth? That's the whole problem with the ideal man. He realizes that he is not ideal or special and that none of us are ideal or special. Not in a depressing way, this person just understands the small part that we all play in this. And even though this ideal person may be all knowing and know the "truth" they are and have been only gifted with the ability to perceive and study the world through their own eyes. And who knows how experiences have skewed their thought. How can this ideal person know that he/she alone is the possessor of the sole universal truth?

>>2555371

I promise I only want to send you instructions for meditation so that you have the opportunity to understand true love. I have no malicious intent. I suggest you take a chance.

>>2555380
So you would, tutor me? You give me some task, I attempt, you evaluate, give me another?

>>2555371
If you're that worried, make a secondary email account.

>>2555375

The ideal person is not the sole possessor of this truth, but the sole person who seeks to sacrifice himself in order to spread this truth to those who are unable to possess it. Absolute understanding of absolute truth is attained when no confusion or inconsistencies arise in a system. The ideal man holds possession of such a system, and where other possessors of this system are content to keep it to themselves and live happily, the ideal man knows this is ultimately selfish as all people deserve such happiness, which is to say, relief from the sickness of the human condition.

>>2555393

I wouldn't tutor you, exactly. I'd give you the instructions for the basic foundation. You would go through it at your own pace, and I'd make myself available for any and all questions you have. I'd help you with tips and tricks for any step you're having difficulty with. I'd do my best to get you to Zen. Free : )

>>2555398
But do you think possibly that the sickness of the human condition is that we are always in search of relief? No matter what any of us believe, we are told that it is not enough. There is more out there and it is our duty to go get it. I think that we have created the myth of truth and set ourselves on a never ending search for it. I think that search is what creates the pain in our lives that we so desperately seek relief from. I think our relief will come not when we find the truth but when we stop searching for it. Can we still study and advance? Yes, but for its own sake, not to reach the top but simply to climb.

>>2555433

If you're searching for absolute truth, if you're looking for relief from suffering, Zen is the answer, the only answer. To anyone reading this who wishes for relief, you can email me, and I can give you the first step (which is really 4 steps).

>>2555444
Don't think you get it man. I'm not looking for anything. There isn't a philosophy or religion or idea that is going to give me relief. It's the idea that there is nothing to seek relief from. You stop looking because there is nothing to find. It doesn't mean you still can't continue to see though.

>>2555467

Not to be rude, I understand what you're saying, but there is something that you haven't had exposure to yet that can provide genuine relief unlike religions or ideas or philosophies, which I agree with you, cannot provide authentic internal peace.

>>2555226
>>2555375
>>2555433
>>2555467
and these are me. If you want to e-mail me....don't. I don't know the answers and neither does this zen motherfucker.

>>2555500
and are you just fuckin with me or do you really understand that little of what i have just written.

>>2555512

Of course there is something to seek relief from. You cannot say you are thoroughly happy at the moment, can you? That's my point. Even if you're not particularly sad or depressed, you still have worries and mental lists like everyone else. I agree with you that philosophy cannot provide relief from these daily discomforts, but Zen can. That is my point.

>>2555517
and my point is that these things are not discomforts. We have been conditioned to look down upon these things and instead pursue relief when it isn't the actual discomforts that are unpleasant but the constant trying to rise above them or be something better. My faggot ass roommate is watching Greek so I'll write some shit. Zen is this attainment of wisdom and enlightenment in order to gain some sort of peace. What if the only peace that comes from enlightenment is realizing that there is no such thing as enlightenment. My sadness and depression that I must feel in order to write stupid shit like this won't be resolved if I try to be Zen. It will go away when I am no longer trying to be anything. Which strangely enough is roughly the state that I am currently in.

>>2555544

The perspective you're favoring seems like apathy or nihilism, which is kind of like willful subordination, no? Like psychological-induced anti-depressants? I agree that the search to ease relief is a struggle and is a source of discomfort. But it is completely illogical, no offense intended whatsoever, to say that discomforts aren't sources of discomfort. Your idea of Zen is a bit off, but it is interesting that the apathetic view you've chosen to embody is actually closer to Zen than not. True Zen is exactly what you're looking for, this idea of not looking for anything, just accepting things as is and remaining relatively still, except once Zen is achieved, this state becomes effortless. You could literally be held at gunpoint and your state of Zen would not waver. You may not think of your preference as apathy, which is fine, let's not get bogged down in semantics as if I'm trying to insult you by the term "apathy," which I'm not, but the other major difference between your chosen apathy and true Zen is that true Zen allows you to not only be content in not searching, but it also fills you with effortless joy. I know this sounds insane, like some Bible story, I know. But I've experienced it; it's a very real possibility that, I believe, all people have access to if they pursue it through Zen meditation.

>>2555595
Ill let UG take it from here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nQDWAUpIMs&feature=relmfu

>>2555633

No thanks. I want an authentic conversation.

>>2555641
just out of curiosity, what path have you take to arrive at the idea that Zen is the answer? And I think everybody should listen to a little UG.

I took the path most people here are on: I went to a good university, certain that Western science and philosophy and logic were the highest ideals of intellectualism, that a person is defined by the quality of his/her mind, and failure to develop the mind through academia is a failure to develop oneself. I majored in philosophy. I thought Western philosophers were all brilliant. I thought Eastern philosophers were morons. I got in trouble with the law for drug use. I was completely stressed. I was going through YouTube videos one day, and this woman teaching Yoga who was incredibly healthy looking (and hot) just mentioned in a side comment that meditation is really great. I could intuit from the way she stated it that she was embarrassed to elaborate, as if there was some massive substance behind her comment which, if she shared, would be the object of ridicule. I decided meditation would be worth a shot. I sat down, used my intuition to connect with universal energy, and three years later I achieved a profound state of Zen. However, I got my first taste of Zen within the first week or two. I saw that as I pumped ch'i (I assume you've heard of ch'i or qi), I would induce goosebumps and horripilation. Lots of things like this happened along the way in those three years, which is the only reason I continued practicing meditation. In my third year, I meditated 4-6 hours a day and incredible things occurred in addition to Zen. Like the Yoga woman, I won't get into it here because I know I'm presenting a perspective very different from what is conventional on this board, and people reject the unfamiliar, etc., blah blah.

Anyway, there is no way to understand Zen or how amazing this truth is until you experience it. Western science is a joke. Western philosophy is a joke. But I suppose it's the best one can do when they choose abstraction over unification. You're free to email me if you wish. The instructions I've written for people are the steps I went through over those 3 years. I kept it as simply and relatable as possible.

>>2555715
I'm curious what you experienced.

>>2555724

Fine, I'll tell you, but please don't mock me. These are in addition to willfully inducing goosebumps, horripilation, and getting small tastes of Zen.
1) I was pumping my ch'i at a very high rate. I felt a belt of electricity manifest around the height of my navel (so imagine wearing a regular belt at the height of the navel, then turn it into electricity and internalize it). I felt to let out an anime scream, AHHHHHH!, when I did this the electricity traveled up my body like a jacob's ladder and then stopped at the level of my lungs. I shouted 8 or so more times, and the "electricity" replicated its initial movement. 20+ minutes later, I experienced severe chest pain, so much so that lying on a soft mattress, chest down, was unbearable. I went to an acupuncturist to have this "energy block" resolved. #2 coming...

>>2555633
Just took a peek into this thread and saw this video, I'm almost in tears with laughter. And at the same time it is very interesting. Thanks!

>>2555724
sure. I'm not hating on Zen or meditating. I think it's cool, I just don't necessarily think it is the solution because I am not of the mind that there is a specific solution. I majored in History and Anthropology in college and just kind of free-studied philosophy because I hoped to look at it with an open mind and didn't want the certain bias that would come with listening to professors. Like you I smoked a lot of weed and watched a lot of youtube videos and read a lot of books, then i stumbled upon something titled the Mystique of Enlightenment. I read it and realized that it was just like all the other things I had read. they were simply things I have read. They weren't going help me because I didn't need help. I became comfortable with what I knew and the idea that what I knew wasn't really all that important so I didn't need to worry about it that much.

2) I was pumping ch'i at an even faster rate, which causes massive pressure around the head, at least for me, a pleasant pressure though. I began feeling myself literally disconnect from my body. Not paralysis, simply feeling the body fade away... all these feelings we don't consider because we live with them everyday like the weight of our body, all the little bits of tension in places, its heat, its joints, etc, all faded as if being sucked down a blackhole. I felt my physical self getting smaller and smaller: imagine a black circle that smoothly reduces in its dimensions. I felt myself going disappearing and going somewhere else. I was overcome by panic because I didn't know if I'd ever come back. This is what masters do with ease, and while I experienced it several times, I never allowed myself to go to the other side, which is the spiritual realm, because I had no guidance (I had taught myself from intuition), and I was afraid I'd cause permanent damage. #3 coming...

3) I only did this once and honestly have no fucking clue how I did it as it belongs to true masters, it was basically a lucky mistake, and no, I don't expect anyone to believe me, but whatever, I'm compelled to share: I was meditating on the couch one day, and I had my remote control to the left of me, and my Xbox controller to the right of me. I had completely forgotten about them as I had been in meditation for at least a couple of hours. I was focusing on my dan tien (which is the energetic center, located an inch below the navel and 2 inches in, approx.) and all of a sudden, I felt a ball of qi expand within me, penetrate and escape the bounds of my body, and then penetrate the objects to my sides. I literally felt these objects even though they were spatially disconnected from me. I know it sounds insane, but this is an example of the unity of energy. 4 coming...

>>2549353
Better iPhone wallpaper version

>>2555444
>If you're searching for absolute truth, if you're looking for relief from suffering, Zen is the answer, the only answer.

Didn't a zen master once said something like: Anyone who goes to a zen dojo for an answer first should get hit 30 times with a keisaku?

You know, for searching something that isn't there, or is already within one.

4) During this time when I was meditating 4-6 hours a day, I began seeing rainbows over my walls and ceiling. Yes, rainbows. They were not like rainbows you see from a rain shower, the colors didn't form a bow, and they didn't stack in the manner of a bow. Instead, they formed in lines, and stacked the way you have seen them do when using a crystal prism. I would see them in the day, I would see them at night, in pitch black darkness, while laying in bed and staring at the ceiling. I looked for over a year to find out what they were. A master told me I was seeing another world, literally. He didn't think it was a big deal though. The rainbows faded as the intensity of my practice dissipated. 5 coming...

>>2555794
Sorry, wrong one.

5) This isn't so much a personal experience as it is an empirical observation: I was getting a massage from a woman, and I decided, just for fun, I'd pump ch'i while she massaged me. I did this for an hour, and at the end of the massage, with no prompting whatsoever, she stated how she felt incredibly serene and good. I didn't bother explaining to her what I thought it was from.

So those are pretty much all the major experiences I've had. I've had smaller ones, like sending ch'i to my feet in my first year of practice and feeling this hilarious cushion between my soles and the carpet--I call that ch'i feet : )

Email is still open, always open for anyone who cares to try.

>>2555796

I don;t know about "Zen dojos," I believe meditation should be practiced alone. The possibility of Zen is definitely within each person, but to say it's not there or already there is incorrect to me.