/lit/ - Literature

>that article

YA fiction sucks balls in 98% of all cases. That's all that needs to be said.

>taking YA fiction seriously and debating about its effects on plebs and women, instead of leaving them to their life of mediocrity.

lel

>The only time I’m O.K. with an adult holding a children’s book is if he’s moving his mouth as he reads.

i move my lips when i read but i move them really fast so it's ok

>tumbler

>I’m sure all those books are well written.

ahahahaha

>David Foster Wallace

opinion discredited

>Joel Stein
Well, there you go. If you take anything seriously from him, you are a moron and don't understand.

Reading fiction in general is a childish hobby that adults should not be ashamed to indulge in occasionally. It's natural that 'YA' fiction (a tautology) should be successful.

http://www.foreveryoungadult.com/2010/10/06/adult-literary-fiction-can-bite-me-a-ya-manifesto/

This is always good for a laugh.

>>2529056
i was once like you. then i stopped being a boring faggot.

>>2529053
I've never found Stein that funny, and frankly I want his job,

Lots of butthurt in the comments section... I think it's kind of funny that all of the angry comments are coming from women... Actually, my mom reads twilight and she's about to be fifty... I even read a page from one of the books and found it awful. In defense of these books, Faulkner even urged budding writers to "read everything," trash included.

>Jonathan Franzen just wrote another book about people who can’t connect with their families or whatever, and how it, like, totally mirrors the perils of modern existence
> their families or whatever, and how it, like, totally mirrors the perils of modern existence
> their families or whatever, and how it, like, totally mirrors the perils
> and how it, like, totally mirrors
>it, like, totally
>, like,
>, like,
>Rachel became a librar-
No.

I actually agree with some of his points. Although totally subjective, I just think it's kind of sad that people are indulging in "lesser" forms of writing simply because they are "easy" or "not-boring," and relishing in it. Some people are just incapable of seeing past the surface... But that's okay... They're being entertained.

>>2529114

To clarify a bit, it's this sort of "myopia of taste" I'm seeing that bothers me more than the books themselves...

>>2529053
lmao seriously

9/11 was worth it to get his unfunny back-page Time column scotched

>>2529012
I read this earlier in the week. My favorite was the non sequitur about there not being enough minorities. Way to answer the question.

I'd rather read a trashy but entertaining mid-tier YA SF series than finish Freedom

Young adult literature in most cases is bad. Nothing else matters.

>>2529135
I roll my eyes at people who are completely self-righteous about reading nothing but YA, but adult literature in most cases is bad. I think there's a case to be made for YA having more interesting subject matter than nine out of ten new novels from 28-year-old graduates of prestigious MFA programs, even if it's usually not spectacularly executed.

>>2529139
That might be true for some folks. I'm personally more interested in well written content than a more interesting subject.

>>2529145
I second that.

i wonder which is a better read, daniel handler's fanciful children's series about a bunch of oddball hard-luck orphans or daniel handler's adult novel about fuckin i dunno, grownups in love

Well, it's true. It's absolutely true. YAF is easy. It's terribly accesible to anyone. It carries through pop fads easily, because virtually anybody get can get into reading it. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing that every adult is talking about the fucking Hunger Games while acclaimed works of literature go unread. All it is is a slant towards fiction as pure entertainment rather than a challenge that you can get something out of.

I mean, fucking honestly, read that stuff if you want, but anybody who reads serious literature has the right to look down on your reading choices, then.

>>2529173
How about Thomas Pynchon's fanciful adult novel about a wackjob stoner hippie private eye getting far too deep into a case of a disappeared land tycoon?

All literature is, in most cases, bad. I wouldn't say that there's a significantly greater percent of bad writing in YA than in adult. What's important is that you read good books...

>>2529194

But you're reducing it to one dimension - good vs. bad. It's more than that. You just don't get the same out of YA that you get out of adult literature. And yeah, we can reference Dr. Suess' works as having some important things to say about the world, but YA by its nature doesn't contain the heavier, complex aspects in adult fiction. If you're getting the same richness out of YA it's either a work of absolute genius or you're probably sort of stupid.

I'd honestly rather read a mediocre adult book than a terrific young adult's book for that reason.

>>2529212
Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials and Michael Ende's The Neverending Story would like a word with you.

>>2529068
This article, Jesus Christ. I can't believe what sort of idiot that has to be written by.

>>2529221
They're both a bit boring to be honest, but that's just me.

>2012
>caring about genre

>>2529225
>epic war involving armies of angels and armies of armored bears, airships, bridges across worlds, quantum physics, dagger that slices through reality, absolutely heartwrenching lovestory
>boring


wat.

Books for grown folks deserve better defenders than Joel Stein and the intellectually insecure 19-year-old directional university honors college English students who post on /lit/

I don´t read yaf because it´s pretty shitty most of the time

need to know how many people itt are bret easton ellis fans

>>2529221

I'm not going to be impressed by Pullman's typically-British anti-religious hissy fit ("Personally I don't believe in God...but what if we could KILL HIM?"). And I don't doubt that there are a number of young adult novels that have significant literary value and are able to engage adult readers at some level. But they're few and far between, and whatever this value is, it's not the reason adults read them. No adult read Harry Potter or Twilight or the Hunger Games because it told us something important.

>>2529068
This whole thing. Wow. This is some serious shit.

>>2529234
Loaded language doesn't influence me that easily, sorry.

I definitely feel as though all literature shouldn't be based on 'age audience'.
Young adult works- I've found many to be well worth reading.

>>2529235
Amen to that. I'm trying to decide who is a better defense though....

>>2529258
For what reasons though? Some people might not value the reasons you found them to be worth reading as much as you did.

I was just on vacation last week and only saw aduly women reading the Hunger Games around the pool. I felt so alone reading Gravity's Rainbow

>>2529240
>>2529240
> No adult read Harry Potter or Twilight or the Hunger Games because it told us something important

I had no idea that I was talking to the guy who was elected to speak for all adults.

>>2529266
I know that feeling, though I don't see people reading books around me anyways. I just feel alone reading in general.

>>2529235

That's... Me... That's actually me... Seriously, I'm laughing to myself a little bit because you described me perfectly, and I've been looking at this thread, sympathizing with Stein..

>>2529271

Don't be an asshole if you want to actually talk about this.

>>2529290
Shh, don't get too bent out of shape. Supporters of YA read it because of their refusal to be mature. So expect immature responses.

Lame examples, if you want people to get butthurt talk about asoiaf, the name of the wind, the vampire chronicles, lord of the rings, etc.

>>2529068
>The person next to me on the train is reading terrible snake oil book, full of un-ironic poetry inspired by garbage cans, and he’s thinking “I am so much more intellectual than that frivolous young woman reading a book with a cow carrying a gnome on the cover.” He thinks I’m reading something that must taste like bubble gum and Am Not Improving Myself. What he doesn’t know is that my bubble gum book is secretly brussels sprouts and NOT ONLY is it as nutritious as a Summer Solstice day, full of literary merit and wonderful word play but it is also entertaining as fuck.

I think she thinks the "as long as they're reading" shit still applies to adults.
Jesus Christ that entire article was cringe-worthy, I hope for her sake she didn't publish under her actual name.

>>2529290
Fair enough but don't make sweeping generalizations about millions of readers. Many people will tell you that they read Hunger Games for the entertainment value but that doesn't mean that things beyond the surface aren't being understood by the readers after the fact.

I was just on vacation last week and finished up Wittgenstein's Mistress on my outgoing flight & read The Hunger Games on the trip back. One love bitches, smoke weed everyday.

>>2529321
It's cool that you read both weird obscure books and crappy popular stuff too

The only good thing that came out of this hunger games craze was that I got to feel intellectually superior for reading and enjoying a real book that I read of my own volition.

People act like cows about things they don't know and I'm fine with that if I get some sense of smug superiority out of it.

The asspain in the comments section of the NYT post is just spectacular. Fucking pleb trash

>>2529321
>Wittgenstein's Mistress

There's also a book called Wittgenstein's Nephew, lol.

>>2529329
homie everyone knows that you decided to read this 11th-grade english lit syllabus classic after googling "obscure books to impress girls"

>>2529340
Markson was originally going to call his book Wittgenstein's Niece, but changed the title after that one came out

>>2529348
hehehe get it, because it has the word Obscure in the title and it's about a Girl named jude

>>2529348
I actually just found it in the library.
Oddly specific example there, "homie".

>>2529355
>jude
>a girl
choose one

>>2529361
oh shit, my literary ignorance is showing

Are you guys saying I'm not allowed to read The Book Thief? Fuck that.

>>2529361
I don't understand what you're implying here. Judith is a common girls' name.

>>2529425
jude the obscure is a rather excellent thomas hardy novel. thanks for playing

>>2529068
>>2529068
>Here are the plots of two books, and you tell me which you’d rather read:

>Every person in a town systematically loses their sight, except for one woman, who lies about being blind in order to stay with her husband. In the process, the entire town is quarantined inside an abandoned mental hospital. Two groups emerge and one group takes control of the food, leading to unimaginable horrors. The society devolves into madness, people dying in the street, going hungry, and being filthy, and the entire process is witnessed by one woman.

>TC and Augie have been playing brothers since they were six, despite the fact that Augie has both his parents. They’re still playing brothers the first day of high school, when the beautiful Alejandra, a diplomat’s daughter, joins their class. The year becomes one of first loves, new talents, family additions, baseball and a very special appearance by Julie Andrews.

>Seriously, is it even a contest?

what's ridiculous is that she thinks the second one sounds better

yeah, i agree with everything in the article and the comments full of butthurt typical of what you would expect in a world where people refuse to see the light, or can't whatever. but anyway one of the books that shed a lot of light on this topic for me was Consumed which talks a lot about the infantilization of adults in our late phase consumer society.

and i will never read the hunger games because it's dumb there i said it.

wow, the comments are really rustling my jimmies. it is really really really obvious that the article is 100% on point, and people should be fessing up going 'yeah yeah i know, but what the hell its entertaining' that i could easily live with. but people really are delusional to the point where they think YA is really something, like its good, it should be read. man i was not ready to see that..

The Huffington Post talked about this recently: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/top-reading_n_1373680.html

If you like reading young adult literature, do it.

The problem is when we have adults reading nothing but young adult literature. Then you wind up with college students who can only read at a fifth grade level.

Personally, what I hate about adults who read YA fiction is that they think I'm some sort of fun-hating leper when I tell them I don't like YA fiction. That fucking attitude has to stop, pronto.

>>2529012
He is basically saying what Thoreau said in Walden which is that once you learn how to read you should read the best literature has to offer. It's funny to see the comments so virulently opposed to this wisdom. It's one thing to say 'its a guilty pleasure' its another thing to say 'no, this IS the best literature has to offer'. Thoreau may be rolling over in his grave...

>>2529866
Whats the name of the first? That sounds really interesting.

i do not understood dis whole hunger games phenomena and people so readily jumping to it's defense i guess they just want to feel like a part of something it's all pretty fucking stupid if you ask me.

>>2529900
The AR scores make it pretty apparent that the content of the book itself is not taken into account. Something can be a relatively easy read, but can still be profound and carry much impact. Is Elie Wiesel's writing truly appropriate for a 4th grader? Is it less appropriate for adults to read it because of a quantified score?

What's the whole deal with this YA shit? Are suburban white american kids suddenly consuming literature because AGE OF INFORMATION makes them believe that everyone (with the purchasing power of the upper middle class, of course) has to do it to separate themselves from the proletarians who don't have the time for ridiculous, escapist ephemeral entertainment and the increasing hordes of walking pieces of meat that only go around consuming different things?

>>2529982 Psuedo Intellectual was assigned Pierre Bourdieu for Freshman Sociology class.

>>2529982
i don't know but my mom is 56, practically a phd and a voracious consumer of YA literature.

While not on the whole bad, YA lit isn't worth defending.

Some people just aren't as intelligent as others no matter how hard they try. Some people realise this and don't bother trying. Other don't bother trying even when do better. In any case, it stands to reason that some will always be limited to elementary material.

>children want books
>children have parents who do everything for them

CASH

>Young adults go to highschool/college/university (depending on the country)
>most of them have jobs on the side and are willing to spend it because it's the first time they actually own money

CASH

You guys don't know much about economy do you?

Stein's just being a smartass as usual, but he's fundamentally right.

>>2529900
>Personally, what I hate about adults who read YA fiction is that they think I'm some sort of fun-hating leper when I tell them I don't like YA fiction. That fucking attitude has to stop, pronto.

Are you me?

>Even Twilight, which I hate (HHHHAAAAAATTTTEEEE)
>(HHHHAAAAAATTTTEEEE)

>>2530252
Exactly. My God, I cringe a little at how much money I spent in my early 20s just because I had money to blow. Never again.

What these YA supporting people don't realize is that those books are reserved for a different section of the cultural zeitgeist. . . while they may be an entertaining read (for the target audience, not college-educated adults as most of them are) they simply don't contain the depth, complexity, and general mastery of the art that "high" literature contains. The whole defense of YA is like defending cartoons as pinnacles of the highest art in film-making- that would be an absurd claim, because they simply don't utilize motifs, cinematography, theme, etc to the same extent. its all very upsetting

there are plenty of smart, resourceful and important people who doesn't read goethe/doesn't listen to bach/doesn't watch bergman. it seems you have some growing up to do, /lit/

>>2531068
This. I try to explain that to my roommate and he labeled me as a "book asshole".
For my first semester in college I had to read a complete a shitty YA series for a class. I was furious that I wasn't able to finish Orlando because of that shit.

>>2531271
*I tried to explain that to my roommate and he labeled me as a "book asshole"
*For my first semester in college I had to complete a shitty YA series for a class.
I need to proofread my post more often

>>2531076
Certainly there are. But wouldn't you agree that glorifying children's literature at the expense of literature intended for adults is a bad thing? Don't we have a right to look down on those who think that Justin Bieber is a better musician than Johann Sebastian Bach and Shrek a better movie than The Seventh Seal?

Just an off-topic question:
Do the racks and racks of modern crime/detective/CSI novels that have names like 'Blood River' and 'Death on the Ice' or 'Dead Steel' have any literary merit whatsoever? I've never had the patience to open one up and see what it's like.

>>2531435
"Literary merit" is a social construction that is manufactured by an academic clique that is primarily interested in its own apparent legitimacy. Probably, these novels have "literary merit" if you get in with the right English department.

>Fiction
Ah, that's the problem.

>"You're automatically biased against them because you are an Adult, and then only thing you ever read is Dickens, Tolstoy and Joyce, of course."

>>2529910
The second book is "Blindness" by Jose Saramago

>dumbed-down music manufactured solely to sell is more popular than progressive music with artistic merit and is slowly killing the music industry
>dumbed-down casual video games manufactured solely to be accessible by the lowest common denominator and pushing video games back to the simple addictive quest to get the high score or defeat your opponent are more popular than video games progressing the medium as a vehicle for new types of artistic interactive experiences and new forms of storytelling, thus stunting the industry's growth and the potential of video games in general
>blockbuster films with nothing but shallow action and sex appeal are being manufactured at an alarming rate, leaving less room for thoughtful, intellectually and artistically stimulating films to shine through

>implying the relationship between young adult fiction and literature is any different

The vast majority of people are dumb. Especially in America. Authors know this. Publishers know this. Books for dumb people are more popular, because the target audience is wider. Why is this a surprise?

>meet college girl at a bar
>she's an english major
>i'm thinking "wow finally an intelligent woman!"
>ask her "so what's your fav novel these days?"
>"i just LOVE twilight and hunger games, have you read them!?"
>walk away

such is life in the zone.

>>2531526
Yes, and it's a great book. If you can, I recommend reading it in the original language, Saramago's writing style is incredibly unique.

“A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children's story in the slightest.”
― C.S. Lewis

come at me fags

>I only read mature books for mature people such as myself
Move along people, nothing to see here, just another insecure elitist faggot

>>2531549
We're not complaining about people enjoying YA literature, we're completely fine with that. What we find fault with is people thinking children's books are in any way superior than adults books and using various logical fallacies to support their ridiculous claims

>>2531567
God, just reading that sentence made me upset, and I fucking wrote it. It's way too late to be getting into a debate on the internet. I'm out.

>>2530999
Trips ends the thread. And with that round, the winner is...nobody.

What young adult literature does /lit/ not hate then? Anything?

I read and enjoyed Uglies a few years ago.

>>2531596
Is that series about the Baudelaire brothers a YA? Because I fucking loved it. (I read it when I was younger, fairly younger)

>>2531596
Redwall. But the plot gets repetitive as the series continues.

The Hobbit.

Maybe something by CS Lewis.

Everything else is pretty bad. Or at least no grown adult should want to read them.

This is what happens when you don't chastise highschoolers for reading things like Harry Potter.

>>2531663

I argue the case of Le Guin's Earthsea series, along with her novels: "Gifts", "Voices", and "Powers".

I don't think YA literature or adult literature is better- I read what I want and enjoy what I enjoy. The age group doesn't matter.

What about works like Neil Gaiman's "Coraline"?
"Alice in Wonderland" is another children's novel that has gained acclaim in the world of adult literature.

I argue mostly for the sake of fantasy children's literature. As for other genres of YA literature, I'm not familiar enough with them. Never really read much of the dramas/realistic novels growing up.

"To throw a book out of serious consideration because it was written for children, or because it is enjoyed by children, is in fact a monstrous act of anti-intellectualism. But it happens daily in academia." - Le Guin, "The Monsters, the Critics, and the Fantasists".

>>2529866
I'm legitimately confused by this. I agree that it's not even a contest, but that would be because the first one sounds awesome. How could somebody think the second one even sounds remotely interesting in comparison?

>>2531699
> don't think YA literature or adult literature is better- I read what I want and enjoy what I enjoy

I don't understand why everyone focuses their argument on "hurr I'll read what I want it's a free country." No one's arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to or that you don't find it entertaining. But to say that Young Adult fiction is on par with adult fiction is ludicrous, and that's where you are fundamentally wrong.

The Le Guin quote doesn't really impress me either, considering she wrote YA fiction. It's just her acting out for some attention, of course she thinks YA fiction is worthy of serious consideration in academia, she writes it!

YA fiction does not (and cannot, otherwise it would not be marketable to young adults/tweens) utilize advanced authorial techniques which elevate content to a higher art. Both the Hunger Games and 1984 center around a dystopian future and an oppressive government as its themes (or at least plot points), but 1984 is far better executed in terms of its actual form, and that is precisely why the two are incomparable.

I think it's healthy for children to engage in fantastical stories to stimulate their imaginations, but the form they are exposed to should gradually increase in terms of artistry. There is no reason a grown adult should be reading Harry Potter.

>>2531727

And who are you to decide what is 'proper' for someone to read?
I'm not sitting there and saying every piece of YA lit is amazing. It isn't. There's a ton of crap.
There's a ton of crap in every area of literature.

How does it affect you in any possible way? I'm just curious.

As for Le Guin, she has written a lot of adult works before and I found her works through that.

>>2531727
The le Guin quote is out of place here really. The adults we're talking about aren't really reading YA fiction because it's an interesting book that happens to be accessible to children (there are very few of those) because none of them are actually reading any of those types of books. Twilight is not worthy of consideration. The Hunger Games is not worthy of consideration. Harry Potter is not worthy of consideration. Let's get all that out of the way now and stop kidding ourselves about type of YA these adults are reading.

>>2531756


Agreed I'll say that.
Twilight is the worst thing I've seen... ever.

Sorry to burst your bubble, YA readers.

Young adult fiction may contain themes and motifs and symbolism-- just take a look at the book "Postmodern Pooh," but when 10 times out of 10 the themes are stuff like "love conquers all" and "friendship is more powerful than hate" and "nazis are stinky poo-poo heads" then the themes being "explored" are really shallow, childish, and not intellectually stimulating in the slightest.

Entertaining? Maybe. Substantial? No.

>>2529866
>>2529866
>despite the fact that Augie has both his parents
So what? I don't get how that influences anything.

How do you know she chose the last one? I immediately assumed that it MUST be the first one... I mean seriously, she even used more words to describe it. She cannot seriously find the second one more interesting, can she?

>>2529056

This is the silliest thing I've ever read, and I seriously hope you're killed, and very soon, by someone more intelligent than you

What about Terry Pratchett?

>>2531754
Well I never said anything was "proper", I said that adult literature is capable of "advanced authorial techniques" and was therefore capable of being more atistic in its accomplishments. There's simply more at its disposal than YA, otherwise the YA wouldn't be accessible to young adults. Joyce couldn't write fiction for the sundry fat girls of America in middle school to fap to.

Also, it affects me about as much as me expressing my own opinion on the matter affects you and is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. If you'd like me to go for a stretch, I'm forced to live in a society populated by people of stunted literary growth who are under the delusion that YA fiction is every bit as valuable as actual literature, and as someone who actually respects literature as an art form, this saddens me.

I'm not under the impression that adult fiction is good as a whole, there's tons of schlock. But good adult fiction is simply better than good young adult fiction.

Dubliners is better than the Redwall series and will be remembered for centuries to come while Jaques' work will fade into obscurity.

>>2531756
What is worthy of consideration then? You can't very well tell me that the YA books that most adults are reading don't actually count without at least giving me an example. Not that it matters much, because the YA most adults are reading are precisely those three, and that's embarrassing.

>>2531842
How the hell is Terry Pratchett's stuff YA?

Is a game of thrones YA fiction?

>>2531919
Never said it was, I just asked. Haven't read many of his works yet, though.

>>2531937
No.

>>2531937
A lot of the material is fairly inappropriate for that age range.

>>2531774
No one?

>>2532873
Damn guys...

y'all thought that was bad, get a load of this asshole:
http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/greater_houston/entertainment/nothing-inspiring-worthwhile-about-joyc
e-s-portrait-of-the-artist/article_dbe953c0-2470-57b7-8607-66ecd1da8e9f.html

hooooo nelly!

>That Article

It takes a real man to express disdain for something aimed primarily at teenagers and young adults.

>Joel Stein

Oh, that hack. That explains everything. Ignore anything he writes, it's normally heinous and he's just trying to get attention because he's publishing a book.

>>2534437

>As someone who considers himself a well-read person, I take particular pride in conquering books that many consider obtuse. It’s a bit of a snobbish badge of honor.

So he's starting the article by admitting he's a hipster. Promising.

>Some foreign literature, particularly from the Far East, is a bit challenging for my taste, but I’ve burrowed through it and made the best of it.

So he deliberately read something you didn't like just because it was obscure and he didn't understand it. I don't really give a fuck, but okay.

>But I’d rather swim naked in a pool of acid stocked with starving Great White sharks than ever have to read another James Joyce novel.

Stopped reading. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but when you overstate that opinion and precede it with a lengthy pile of hipster shit I'm already weary of hearing it.

>>2534449
> particularly from the Far East

oh god why why?

>hurr durr I'm so well read because I picked up a Japanese novel translated into English and sold at Borders!

>There’s a reason my teachers didn’t assign me to go home and play three hours of Donkey Kong.
Would anyone care to elaborate Joel's point for him? Why would this be a bad idea?