/lit/ - Literature

Kropotkin, Bakunin, Dmitry Merezhkovsky

doubtful because "class" is largely meaningless, and was just marx being angry because he was a kike.

>>2495795
I'm only going to feed you croutons if you at least try to play along stormbabby

>>2495795
>a person's relationship to means by which they are able to continue living is irrelevant to their living

Nice logical contradiction, kiddo

This is what free market thinkers actually believe

..and the fact that Marx ripped off Thomas More's idea from his book Utopia. Wow...I like people who pretend they invented something when they in fact didn't. Well done Karl. So glad it backfired on you since "your" political system has been deemed a complete and utter unworkable failure. Oh well.

>>2495808
I must have missed where people were starving to death by the millions, and of course class must be the only relevant reason for that.

Because as we know, businesses hirer people based on what class they were born in!

>>2495816
>class must be the only relevant reason for that.
> businesses hirer people based on what class they were born in

Marxist never even said that so what a big fucking straw man failure that post was. Thanks for making yourself look dumb and allowing me to win the argument. But I really didn't need you to concede so readily.

>>2495811

And I suppose everytime a business goes bust the system of Capitalism is proved to be a complete and utter unworkable failure?

>>2495811

Marx owed far more to Saint-Simon than Thomas More, you numbskull. I think he was more influenced by his opposition (Smith & Ricardo) than by More.

To answer OP's question:

Pierre Bourdieu, who empirically showed that your class and educational background (which are themselves connected) does in fact impact what kind of work you get, what kind of food you eat, what music you listen to, and what you read based on 1100(ish) surveys.

>>2495856
>class and educational background

Which has nothing to do with genetics and parentage and so on?
Why do you have to invent and use an meaningless category like "class".

>>2495849
Marx has basically conclusively pointed out that the direction of capitalist production creates an unstable counter-force. Would you kindly understand long-term perspective

Also, here's your crouton

>>2495856

And regarding the anarchist who responded first: Kropotkin is useful, Bakunin is not. Bakunin was more concerned about destroying authority, which is not entirely unrelated to material circumstances, but has a charismatic element unaccounted for by class or material circumstance.

>>2495860

Oh, right, because we all start off with the same amount of material wealth, I forgot. Fuck off.

>>2495864
because material wealth is the most important thing in life, and determines everything about you, huh?


>>2495861
>marx
>conclusively anything
MY SIDES

>>2495867

I never implied anything of the sort. But the fact we all start off with different amounts of wealth makes class a meaningful variable of social analysis you stormbabby.

>>2495870
Only from a marxist perspective.

>>2495867
Strawmen, Strawmen everywhere.

I'm just going to assume you're a teenaged young republican and hope you'll grow out of this phase.

>>2495861

>mfw im a Marxist and was critiscising the logic of the person claiming "Marx's system" was a completely unworkable failure. My comment was sarcasm to show that various strands of Marxism-Leninism etc have failed but "Communist" States have survived and Russia was turned from a backward piece of shit into a world superpower within like 35 years under "Communism" - notice how its in inverted commas - which would've took a far far longer time under Capitalism or Feudalism.

>>2495879
>MFW I'm only going to feed you one crouton per day

forgot your face bro

>>2495883

I lost my face fighting for glorious revolution.

>>2495885
the unknown soldier, I presume?

>>2495884
This is laughably bad

>>2495884

>Communism - an egalitarian society which has NO MONEY OR STATE.
>posts pic of guy begging for money
laughingirls.jpg

>>2495888

More the lesser known revolutionary.

Captcha >George gowedi

>>2495891

>>Communism - an egalitarian society which has NO MONEY OR STATE.

>no money or state

marx never said what communism would be like

lol what makes you think that?

>>2495879
>Russia was turned from a backward piece of shit into a world superpower

ololol what?

The communists crippled russian production and industrialization, they completely halted all economic development too.

>which would've took a far far longer time under Capitalism or Feudalism.

Pure and utter nonsense.

>>2495909
He pretty clearly states that the substitution of capital for social relations is the force to lead to the decline of the state

>>2495889
>>2495891

>b-b-but muh revolution

>>2495909

It is explicitly said in the Communist Manifesto that Communism is a stateless, moneyless society, granted it doesn't go into a huge amount of detail about other factors but a moneyless, stateless society we can be sure of. Socialism has money and a state, but it is the transitional period to Communism.

>>2495916
Do you not know what "capital" means?

>>2495921
It's a meaningless fantasy by a delusional jew.
How could things exist without money or property? Even animals in the forest or plants recognize property!

Charles Fourier went so far as to crunch actual numbers.

>>2495923
So maybe I don't

tell me why I'm wrong?

>>2495915

Before Communism:
>Russia 1905 - Couldn't beat Japan in Russo-Japanese War
>Russia 1914-18 failed miserable in World War I

During Communism:
>Contributed the most of any country toward defeating the Nazis
>Helped win "victories" in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, China etc
>Went toe to toe with the USA the only other world superpower which had the advantage of years of capitalist development under its belt effectively giving it a head start on the USSR
>Also, FIRST IN SPACE UMAD?

>>2495927

And I suppose we should act as animals then?

>>2495936
I think we should basically just accept that communism died because productivity was stagnating

>>2495954

We /are/ animals.

>>2495966

Is that seriously your best shot in response to the other post? Please tell me you're trolling because a rebuttal like that really doesn't deserve a response.

Also - Communism died.
>Cuba umad

>>2495977
Communism in the soviet union. Debate me here plebeian. Did not Gorbachev institute restructuring due to stagnant productivity?

>>2495972

Wow bro good to see you believe in Evolution like every good Marxist should :) next logical step from there is for you to come round to Dialectical Materialism, have fun. :)

>>2495992

I am a rationalist.

Communism is hardly rational.

>>2495936
Are you mentally retarded, or simply can't grasp historical context?

>>2495954
It's not about behaving like animals, but about recognizing the futility of promoting an ideology in contradiction to reality and human nature.

>>2495999

Perhaps it isn't rational if you're not class conscious, or are in fact a member of the Bourgeoisie.

>>2496009

If you believe in evolution you believe in survival of the fittest. AKA social darwinism.

>>2496001

>historical context

Elaborate.

>Human Nature

Such as the Human Nature that drove us to work together and if it hadn't we probably wouldn't have made it past the tribal stage? Oh no let me guess you mean the whole "human nature is greed" thing that people put forward when they a) try to explain the failure of communism whilst never having studied it or b) try to justify capitalism at the expense of those who it fails. - The Unprivileged to me, or the Lazy to you.

>>2496017

I believe in Survival of the Fittest by means of Natural Selection, yes. Not the same at all, and anyway, whats "fitter" than one class united with no divisions (In theory. I'm not as dogmatic as i may have lead you to believe.)? Besides Darwinism between classes is entirely different to Darwinism between animals.

>>2495999

Then you and Marx have something in common. He was a rationalist too.

>>2495966

Evidence?

>>2496049
Gorbachev. The Brezhnev era of stagnation is pretty well known

>>2495983

Sorry to get back to you late, was replying to others. There are many arguments for why restructuring was put into action, the most likely is probably the one you have put forward. However this does not mean that Communism had made no gains in its years of being, many people were better off and a lot of gains had been made, hell in Russia's recent elections the Communist Party came second with 20% of the vote! However, remember my second post explicity stated that "various strands of Marxism-Leninism have failed", The USSR was one of them.

>>2496054

Also just so you know, liberalisation measures made the economy worse.

>>2496054

So in other words, you have no evidence. It was also well known at one point that the earth was flat.

>>2496056
The two-headed hydra is pretty weak there
'babby.

>>2496062
the political reforms were a mistake, china made economic reforms and has not met the same fate

>>2496022
>try to justify capitalism at the expense of those who it fails

Who is "failed" by capitalism?

>>2496062
The "liberalization efforts" were about auctioning the country off to jews.

>>2496091

Those that don't own the means of production and never can own them through no fault of their own. They are born into a life of slavery to their master who was fortunate enough to control the means of production and the Capital needed to create even more wealth for themselves at the expense of the worker by accumulating profit from them by paying the worker less than his labour is actually worth.

Also might wanna check out things like the Irish Potato Famine, took place under a general policy of "laissez faire capitalism" at the time.

communism was an attempt to answer a series of questions identified in the critique of capitalism.

clearly those answers were fundamentally wrong.

we need new answers, but we'll never get them if the left is still obsessed with trying to rehabilitate what was maybe the most catastrophic social experiment in human history (20th century communism).

>>2496106
>clearly those answers were fundamentally wrong
Please be specific and know how to regimes that claim to be socialist from socialism

On a related note, I get the strong feeling none of you have actually read Marx

>>2496113
*know how to differentiate regimes that claim to be socialist from socialism

Why is it always like this

>>2496106
Most of the critique were either wrong, or aimed at fundamental elements of reality rather consequences of "capitalism".

>>2496106

Wrong. That title belongs to Manifest Destiny.

>>2496113

Yeah, it gets more obvious and pathetic every post.

>>2496113

are you going to spew all this shit about how soviet and cino socialism isn't 'true' socialism

because if you're going to critique capitalism by taking into account the its corruptions misinterpretations and destructive ambiguities then you should be honest enough to do the same for socialism.

or maybe you will play the 'industrialism' card whereby you ignore that russia was on the the top 5 most industrised nations in 1917.

whatever you do it will be stupid and dogmatic

>>2496149
playing the "not true socialism" care because it is true. Honestly, neither were proletarian and you should recognize that
>nobody does. OH LAWL IT MUST BE SOCIALISM

I'd rather you guys critique Marx's theories as they stand thanks

>>2496104
>paying the worker less than his labour is actually worth.

The worker agrees to work hence he's paid exactly what he's worth, also the capitalist ACCOMMODATES the worker by paying him immediately while the capitalist has to wait for the sale of whatever the worker produced to profit from it.

>They are born into a life of slavery to their master

Utter nonsense, working for a wage is not slavery.

>Also might wanna check out things like the Irish Potato Famine, took place under a general policy of "laissez faire capitalism" at the time.

uh, it was hardly laissez faire capitalism, and are you claiming communism would end famines?

Hell, i don't recall any famines happening in recent times, seems like capitalism has solved that problem.

The only problem with communism is that it can be turned into a dictatorship so easily because of how inherently authoritarian it is.

>>2496153
*card
god fucking damnit

>>2496153
Nothing can be "true socialism" because "true socialism is a delusional fantasy.

>>2496149

oh but getting paid $8/hr to flip burgers while the price of everything goes up faster than your wages do is totally rational.

>>2496153

clearly you've never read about hegel's concept of totality.

see i can be just like you.

>>2496162
you have to critique the idea to be considered first 'babby good buddy

maybe it's time you actually did some reading?

>>2496166
Maybe the government should stop playing games with the economy then?

>>2496149

>because if you're going to critique capitalism by taking into account the its corruptions misinterpretations and destructive ambiguities then you should be honest enough to do the same for socialism.

fucking this

>>2496168
Except clearly we're talking about Marx's theories and clearly you haven't the slightest clue
>OH HO HO MARX WAS DERIVED FROM HEGEL I OBVIOUSLY HAVE A SAY HER-
No. If you want me to take you seriously you have to be educated enough to have a serious opinion. Except you don't and want to cry your eyes out for being treated like the irrelevant pleb you are

>>2496173

Last time I checked it wasn't the government paying $8/hr.

Goodnight ignoramuses; it was unpleasant as usual.

>>2496178

wow labelling me an irrelevant pleb for daring to question marxist theory i'm sure they'll reserve a spot for you on the central committee when the workers take over

>>2496106

You're conflating 20th century communism with theoretical Marxism you dumb cunt.

Read some Badiou OP.

>>2496185
Except you clearly have not even read the theory enough to criticize it
>fucking /lit/
>armchair philosophers everywhere

>>2496182

The wages are fine dipshit.

It's the inflation caused by the government that's the problem.

>>2496189

im looking at marxism in its totality fatherfucker

read a book sometime jeez

It's hard to be mad at Marxists for the same reason it's hard to be mad at your dog when he pisses on your rug.

Simply put, neither of them know any better.

>>2496152

>Worker agrees

Not much agreeing to be thought about when its a choice between working for the Capitalist or starving.

>Paying him immediately

In free market capitalism they were paid their meager wages immediately so they could run to spend it all on food to survive, workers were paid so little, several missed payments could be the difference between life and death, between feeding your family and not. Wouldn't want a diseased and dying workforce would you?

>working for a wage is not slavery

Never heard of Wage-Slavery then?

>hardly laissez-faire

Well considering the government attempted to let the market solve the problem tell me how it wasn't laissez-faire? thats got to be the most unfounded comment of the whole thread.

>Claiming Communism would end famines?

Nope, I am however, pointing out that a common criticism of communism is the so-called famines when they took place under capitalism too. Also maybe the fact that Capitalism failed the millions who died?

>Don't recall famines happening in recent times

I hope you're trolling. Africa, enough said. As Che once said "Where are the successes of Capitalism in Africa?"

>Capitalism solved that problem

The problem isn't solved and even if it were, believing Capitalism was responsible for it being solved would be extremely ignorant to say the least.

>>2496190

i studied sociology bitch i know my shit you better back off before i go max lazer on your ass

>>2496194

If you can't grasp the very real differences between praxis-driven movements and the theoretical foundations on which they are driven, be it successfully or not, then there is no point in you trolling up this thread.

>>2496200

>blames the problems in Africa on capitalism instead of the failing of niggers as a sub-species

>>2496208

1/10 thats the best i can do Stormbabby

>>2496216

>ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL

>EXCEPT WHITES THEY'RE THE DEVIL

>>2496219
Are you actually crying stormbabby?

>>2496222

>>2496206

yeah sure mate keep telling yourself that just because every marxist revolution has failed doesnt mean there is anything wrong or even ambiguous about the theory there is no connection at all

keep clinging to your old dogmatics it's taken you so far in the last 100 years

>>2496219

>ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL
>ARE CREATED EQUAL
>CREATED EQUAL
>CREATED

lol 2/10 would read again

>>2496227

Cuba, that is all.

>>2496232

>2012

>using Cuba as an example of successful anything

I shiggity diggity

>>2496236

>2012
>Not using Cuba as an example of how not all Marxist revolutions have failed despite the fact the Cuba is suffering from trade embargos from pretty much every country in the world.

>>2496243

yeah sure cuba a morally decrepit familial authoritarianism with the second highest number of imprisoned journalists (after china of course), people arent allowed to use the internet, citizens can't even leave or enter the country without official permission and cubans are banned from Cubans watching listening to independent, private, or foreign broadcasts not to mention the rampant torture and extrajudicial executions

or maybe you want to talk about the success of its economy

>>2496267
who cares guevara is cool xD

>>2496267

I disapprove of most of those things but my point was that it was a Marxist revolution which succeeded, so far anyway, and nothing you just said refuted that point.

>>2496280
>>2496280

>>2496267

Also you forgot 2nd highest literacy rating in the world, universal healthcare and the ability to resist counter-revolution from foreign powers e.g the U.S ;)

>>2496274

existing =/= succeeding.
descending into an authoritarian nightmare = failing

>Aside from Marx, are there any theorists who seriously tried to construct a model of human social relations and their relationship to material circumstance?
Guy Debord

>>2496280

yeah and the third reich introduced laws against animal cruelty laws.

it's such a consolation to cubans, even though they are humiliated everyday by living without proper human rights they know that their children will be able to read the state approved and heavily censored books.

:3

>>2496294
>'laws against animal cruelty laws'
lol

>>2496294

Yeah because they were so much better off when they were ruled by US Business interests. And don't forget the state will treat them if they get sick too :) and house them :) and give them food :)

>>2496300

yeah who needs freedom when you have food and a house right :) (: at least they're not america right

>>2496305

Funny thing is, i personally think they should have freedom and I also think they currently enjoy a bit more freedom than you seem to realise. Thing is, whether I want Cuba to stay the way it is or not is irrelevant, I merely wished to express the point that not all Marxist revolutions have failed.

And you can argue against free-markets with your point too (considering its the state that guarantees rights)

>who needs to be able to stand up to their boss for violating their rights when they're making all this dosh?

>>2496300

jesus christ you're actually defending the castro regime?

and you're a leftist?

I know this is 4chan but goddamn you people are weird.

>>2496312

A word of advice bro, read up a little bit and you'll see I'm not trying to defend Castro, I'm merely expressing the point that not all "marxist" revolutions have failed and it is a fact that US business interests ruled Cuba equally harshly as Castro, I am in no way defending Castro, merely listing some pro's of Cuba and the fact that the revolution hasn't failed.

>>2496311

But it has failed; it's a dictatorship.

If failure is going to mean anything it should be precisely that.

I am critical of the free market, I'm a left winger.

i just think we need a fresh approach and to think critically about the old answers to free market. We need to start from the beginning again.

>>2496322
>>2496322

P.S And of course there are also many, many negatives of Castro's rule too, but as i have said multiple times before, i'm not here to debate whether Cuba is good or bad, im stating that not all Marxist revolutions have failed.

>>2496322
but how do you even define failure? It seems like you are moving the semantic goalposts back to an absurd degree to preserve your point, just becaues the regime hasn't collapsed doesn't mean it hasn't failed. Castro's cuba is a fucking nightmare.

>>2496324
The only true society can be envisioned by this great person.

>>2496324

I agree and disagree. The revolution has failed in the sense that it isn't doing what it should be in the sense of offering a workable alternative to capitalism and offering a better life to Cuba's people. What i meant is literally the most basic sense of the phrase "not failing". I.e the State of Cuba and the governing doctrine which draws from Marxism is in power.

Also if we're talking about marxist revolutions, if one interprets the "dictatorship of the proletariat" in a literal sense then the revolution has SUCEEDED because Cuba is a dictatorship. However this is down to personal interpretations and I dont believe it was meant this way. However, this is a way in which Cuba could be perceived to be a 'success' in marxist terms because of its dictatorship.

Completely agree with you on finding new solutions etc. I am in no way advocating another Cuba or USSR.

>>2496334

I am regarding failure as the point at which the Cuban Communist State can no longer preserve itself due to pressures internal or external.

>>2496326

if it succeeded as a state should be able to provide a basic level of welfare, economic opportunity and human rights for its citizens.

so far it's got 1/3. that doesn't sound like a successful state to me.

>>2496354

P.S. And of course this doesn't make it a true sucess but when somebody (who i replied to with Cuba in the first place) mentioned the failure of marxist revolutions, I don't think they were talking about failures in the sense of not delivering to the people etc they were talking about outright failures.

>>2496355

see
>>2496354
>>2496350
>>2496358

>>2496350

Yes in this sense I agree with you, Cuba's regime survived the pro-american exile invasion and Kennedy's operation mongoose and it doesn't seem to be on the verge of collapsing anytime soon

>>2496364

Well I'm glad we could agree :) unfortunate that we have to agree on the fact it doesnt look like collapsing though.

>>2496375

yeah it's a sad story, but things could be worse; at least we won't wake up in a cuban prison cell tomorrow for having this conversation.

although that could be fun :3

Isn't Cuba poor as fuck? No trolling, just asking.

>>2496383

Not with the way Cubans treat homosexuality it couldn't, you better hope Castro doesnt catch wind of that lol

>>2496390
it's pretty ok.
everybody has an education, and the medical system is pretty awesome
that being said, it is poor as fuck, in the sense that no one really has any money... so there are a lot of educated hookers and waiters going for the tourist dollar

>>2496391

I'm out, apologies to the OP for derailing the thread but hey it made for an interesting discussion.

>>2496390

It's better off than any other sovereign nation in the Caribbean, despite heavy economic sanctions and a trade embargo led by the USA, as well as US covert attempts to disrupt their economy, overthrow or assassinate the leaders, and discredit any of their successes.

Ask Haiti or Jamaica how capitalism is going. They are basically owned by the IMF (even before the earthquake in Haiti. I rather be Cuban than live in any third world nation that banked on the western capitalism during the cold war.

>>2496441
s'okay, I kind of expected this

>>2496470
>It's better off than any other sovereign nation in the Caribbean

That's a complete lie, which is easily verified by looking at this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

...and that ignores the fact that Cubans aren't free to travel, suffer various forms of political and free speech repression (with dissenters sent to "work camps" or horrible jails, aren't allowed to connect to the internet (5 year prison term for illegal internet access), and until recently cell phones were also banned.

>>2496470
You are ignoring race.

Haiti is 90% niggers, so naturally its a shithole.
Jamaica is mostly nigs too.