/lit/ - Literature

zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance

just watch Twin Peaks

>>2494341

Get a hold of the Mumonkan (The Gateless Gate) by Mumon Ekai and the Blue Cliff Record. Both are collections of Zen koans (parables/riddles).

>>2494257

newbie tier: Alan watts


high tier: Wei Wu Wei

>>2494260
Also, this isn't about Zen at all.
Sincerely,
>>2494349
P.S., I read about above koan collections in Douglas Hofstadter's 'Gödel Escher Bach', which deals with Zen quite a lot. A challenging read but definitely worth a look.

>>2494350
op here, I have alan watt's the way of zen, it's like reading a magazine article about zen

>>2494350
Wei Wu Wei is Taoist

Principia Discordia

Zen for the white folks.

>>2494354

>wei wu wei taoist

you must be new to all of this

>>2494354

He explains the fundamental zen doctrine as well as the taoist doctrine as well as the advaita doctrine

it might be 2 deep for u

>>2494361
>>2494360
Have you guys ever meditated on a koan?

>>2494361
Anyone who tries to "explain" the Zen "doctrine" is highly dubious if you ask me. The entire point is that you can't just explain it. That man should be whacked with a stick.

I'm reading You Have To Say Something by Katigiri, it's a bunch of his recordings/lectures transcribed. He's some zen master dude. I also have The Gateless Gate, though I haven't read it yet.

Definitely read The Way Of Zen by Watts, and also The Book by Watts too if you like his style. That'll get you started in the right direction.

> Japanese form of a Chinese Confucian bastardization of Buddhism.
>likes it for the koans and anecdotes
Are you trying to be as pathetic as you can?

>>2494412
are you trying to troll as hard as you can?

>>2494412
>thinking Buddhism isn't babby's first Taoism via India
I sense you know not what you say.

I've been practicing zazen for a little close to a year and a half, if you want to understand zen, sit and come to know your breath.

That's it.

I also enjoy Shunryu Suzuki, his book Zen Mind Beginner's Mind is a nice read, it's available online.


Here are some good zen koans.

http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html

The idea of a koan is for it to break your current ego, to realize that nonduality is what is, it goes beyond logic.

I also recommend reading the Tao Te Ching, the first line says it all.

Watching these youtube videos is also enlightening >>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM6kdJ6xq2A

But again, I could talk all day about zen, and say many many words, but those words, they aren't the truth, they are one step removed from the truth, to know zen, you have to know it directly, either in meditation practice or through koans.

Depends on the sect of zen as well, I prefer meditation.

>>2494414
No, I'm showing restraint

>>2494416
>ashida kim

I dont think you know who that is

I don't, but I like your gif and just googled him and found a weird as crappy ninja video.

enlighten me.

Also the koans are legit.

tiers of /lit/ hate
1. ayn rand
2. genre fiction
3. buddhism

>>2494421
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashida_Kim#Ashida_Kim

you can also check out the bullshido forums and ask/search about him, you'd want to take anything that guy says with a pound of salt

>>2494421

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Ashida_Kim

Ok, so he is a hack.

What bearing does that have on the 101 koans that I linked on his website?

You do realize, the koans are from zen's history, and he is just hosting them?

>But again, I could talk all day about zen, and say many many words, but those words, they aren't the truth, they are one step removed from the truth, to know zen, you have to know it directly, either in meditation practice or through koans.

This is some Christian level bullshit right there.

>>2494431

So, when I describe what vanilla ice-cream tastes like, do you also taste it, or must you also eat the ice-cream to know how it truly tastes?

>>2494429
I guess it wouldn't be very zen of me to completely disregard them

>>2494431
zen is life, you can't be zen 100% of the time but it helps to be more zen like, there's not much bullshit to zen, I don't meditate but I do practice breathing to help calm myself, it cuts through bullshit in actuality, whereas christianity gives you reasons to stress over shit or worry

>>2494433
Nice analogy, as religion like ice cream, is unfulfilling sweet tasting garbage that appeals mainly to children and will melt away when brought out into the light of the sun.

>>2494439
Nice job avoiding the idea.

>>2494448

People prefer their dogma, he despises religion, yet acts religiously.

check out Islam bros
it makes a lot of sense

>>2494452
Do I need to say it?

I want you to troll me as hard as you can.

>>2494452
Hell yeah, you could be a zensunni wanderer

>>2494455
or u cud just be a dervish

I was just wondering why do you guys think Alan Watts is entry-level tier?

>>2494459
i would pay mch attention to anyone who uses that phrase. its synonymous with mainstream and we all kno what that implies

>>2494461
haha, honestly, I don't know what you are implying :D

seeking zen /lit/

the ultimate oxymoron

it is just naturalism. whatever

>>2494483
which to be fair is pretty zen.

>>2494459

Mostly because his interpretation of zen is largely westernized.

He's still really enjoyable to listen to, and hear his ideas ,but he wasn't exactly zen practitioner, I have no idea of how many decades of zen practice he has, but he says a lot on the subject.

He doesn't seem to focus on meditation or koans, but just this kind of awareness of the world, oneness, maybe more of the esoteric aspects of zen, rather then on the core practice.

Maybe I would call it, the lazy-man's-zen.

read the nonfiction travel book, the snow leopard.

>>2494349
and this.

D.T. Suzuki

/thread

I'm always surprised when these buddhism threads that occasionally crop up never mention writers who steeped themselves in it (aside from Jack Kerouac of course).

Gary Snyder was very influenced by Buddhism, and Paul Reps has a bunch of books on Zen that I thought were quite good.

>>2495222
maybe people want to read about actual zen stuff and not just white dudes who liked zen

it's almost like it's a vibrant spiritual practice and not something centered around white westerners who wantt o feel exotic or mystical

>>2495227

Paul Reps I believe edited an anthology of zen writings: Zen Flesh Zen Bones.

Watts- white guy
Suzuki- practically a white guy
Chogyam Trungpa - charlatan

D.T Suzuki is definitely the most prominent.

Reading about Zen is near impossible because it is understood through epiphany, which is why riddles are used instead of logic.

To get your best understanding of Zen, you should learn about it in the context of something else. That's why I realize liked DT Suzuki's book 'Zen and Japanese Culture' which approaches the practice of Zen through the lens of things that are inherent in Japanese culture and have been heavily influenced by Zen. These things include Swordplay, Haiku, Tea Ceremony, Art, Caligraphy, etc.

Hope this helps you OP.

also, this:
>sit and come to know your breath

>>2495236

fuck prominence. Paul Reps is the best.

>>2495227

If it's written in English, it's going to be written by a white guy or a Japanese guy living in America who is getting paid lots.

Needless to say much will be lost in translation.

Quit being a bitch and learn to read Kanji

>>2494257
I've been looking into Seung Sahn today, a Korean master who is partly responsible for bringing Zen to the West. Highly interesting and humorous. There's a documentary about him on youtube if you want to get a feel of his style.

I just recently discovered the Korean counterpart and I enjoy reading about it very much. They seem a bit more hardcore than the Japanese variant. Fuck marriage, fuck possessions, fuck city dwelling and cosy shit and wander around mountains like a hermit and meditate. Which is oversimplified and not representative for the whole of Korean Zen, but I get the idea that there are more modern examples of serious practice there than coming from Japan.

Also, Seung Sahn esthablished a lot of Zen Centers in the West, so there might be a good chance for you to practice with his former students. I'm thinking about getting some of his written work at the moment, since the snippets I've read of it were great and clear and to the point.

The Way of zen by Alan Watts is a nice introduction for newcomers, although he might be a bit biased towards the 'lol meditation is shit let's just prank each other and get drunk' sort of Californian beat/hippie/bohemian interpretation of it all.

>>2495268
You know that Zen has presence in India, China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan right? You know that each time there was translation and cultural difference to be overcome and that it evolved and has different nuances in every region and time? There is no such thing as the one authentic language and the one authentic form of Zen that can and should not be changed because any difference is Wrong according to the Gods of Dogma. It's a fluent thing. There are plenty of Western Dharma teachers these days too. If anything, the future of Buddhism might lie in the West rather than the East. There's nothing faulty about white people getting involved in an elementary practice that, while most prominent in the East in the past, could be found in Western traditions as well. It just got preserved in a more lively and practicable form there. It's much easier for a European man to adhere to Zen practice than to try to recreate Pyrrhonic ataraxia, for example.

This place.. it's like.. this shithole stinks of zen

This whole thread is beside the point.

>>2495314

Interesting that you bring up western philosopy and Pyrrho, and freedom from worry.

Essentially there are many parallels between buddhist/zen/taoist practice and stoicism. Maybe Pyrrhonism as well, because this idea of ataraxia is similar to stoicism and zen. There should be no perturbation in the mind of a zen master, or the ideal stoic. But again, from the zen perspective, it would come after decades of serious practice, or some people think it comes suddenly in a realization. Personally I think it is a combination of a cognitive understanding, and the slow and gradual transformation that takes place in your cns after decades of meditation, that allows that kind of personal mastery.

Both have a focus on personal cultivation, discipline, and and a concern on the mind, rather than externals.

>>2495289
>Californian beat/hippie/bohemian interpretation

I can understand why Alan Watts is lashed to this stigma, since he taught from the early 60's in California and was basically worshipped and promoted by the utmost of the clueless boho hippie culture who basically grasped at and transplanted any wisp of eastern religion they could get their petuli fingers on.

He was actually one of the most insightful and learned men I've ever heard of.

I think it's the same knee-jerk that Huxley gets
>lol lets just dissolve into psychedelia and wank over utopian ideals
When, in fact he was incredibly intelligent and many of his interests rivaled that of a specialist in their respective field in terms of knowledge.

>>2495382
I've always found stoicism a bit too rigid to be compared with Zen Buddhism, although I can see the parallels. Pyrrhonism has that "no-mind" approach to things with the total suspension of judgement, which reminds of me of Zen and Taoist sages. Diogenes and the Cynics come to mind too. Epicureanism would be another almost Buddhist like school of philosophy, especially in the search for tranquility, the middle way (as in neither extreme hedonism or asceticism) and a sort of existentialist, atheistic or apatheistic approach to life. What they all have in common seems to be some sort of quietism though.

Concerning the question of gradual or sudden enlightenment/insight: It would very well be a case of both, in the same way that one can fiddle with a lock for a long time in order to get it right, but it springs open instantly and suddenly.

>>2495389
I've read Watts carefully myself and I'm very fond of him. It is however undeniable that his style was partly a product of his time, be it intentionally or unintentionally. While I find him very insightful, I think he is sometimes ready to dismiss serious spiritual practice as superfluous behaviour. This may not be his intention, but he makes it easy for his readership to dismiss discipline and practice because "we're all there anyway and there is nothing to gain" which can lead to lazy, smug pretension instead of sincere understanding.

That said, he was of course more of a scholar and interpreter and shouldn't be held responsible as some sort of guru, which he clearly stated he wasn't on multiple occasions.

>>2495412

Epicureanism does have a central tenent of a freedom from suffering, but how it goes about it is slightly different. Whereas how stoicism does it is through a personal understanding of being in conformity with nature, which is very Taoist/zen.

This is a great article.

http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol5/roman-buddha.html

>>2495412

also, you might be surprised just how rigid some sects of zen are, almost like a little military training camp, for enlightenment.

>>2494257

Reading about Zen is pointless. You should simply pursue achieving Zen--once you achieve Zen you gain inherent understanding. You can do this through qi gong meditation. I can give you instructions for free: tifff8@yahoo.com

Most people are too stupid to achieve Zen. It requires inherent cognitive skill. Email me.

>>2495451
You have a point. I do think that early Taoism and Zen is more easily related to Cynicism. Lao Tzu and Bodidharma seem more like Diogenes than Zeno to me. An interesting parallel is that where Stoicism evolved from Cynicism into a more systematic and theoretic school of thought, the same happened with Zen. It became more cultured and embedded in society.

Thanks for the link, by the way.


>>2495455
Yes, especially the more formalised Japanese sects, which I think you are referring too. I do think that Zen can be very rigid in form and ritual, while still being less so in the sense of substance. With Stoicism it seemed to be the other way around. They all relied on similar thought but there was no established formal practice of stoicism in daily life.

>>2495479
8/10

>>2495481

Ummm, what?

>>2495486
>Reading about zen is pointless
>Please read what I write about zen
>Practice taoist yoga/aerobics to grasp zen instead of zazen and other methods used for ages by zen masters
>Fuck all the zen masters of old, I will disregard the concept of universal Buddha-nature and say that zen is for a few smart people
>zen can be achieved (confusing meditative tradition of practice with enlightenment)
>email me, I'm an authority on this subject

Nope.

>>2495486

i think he's implying you're mistaken and or trolling

and i think he's correct, you are mistaken

non guided meditation means you are just sitting on your ass doing nothing while random thoughts come up

you might as well watch tv

i never got much out of meditation other than the fact that we dont control our thoughts all the time, they seem to come up on their own---thats about it

Another form of nonsense.

You people couldn't be more wrong about meditation--how do you think Lao Tzu and the others wrote what they did? How do you think Buddha achieved enlightenment? You think they read books on Zen? on Taoism? LOL. If you don't want instructions on meditation, that's fine. Guided meditation is a joke, and you would know that if you knew ANYTHING about meditation. You have never felt qi. You have never directed qi. You are ignorant. Go play computer games.

My offer still stands to anyone who wishes to achieve Zen. No B.S. Completely free. I send you instructions, written in plain English, and you may ask as many questions as you wish. This is not for my ego. I wish there to be a spiritual revolution as I have experienced the power of meditation and simply wish the gift be experienced by others.

>>2495500
I've always found it a tremendous experience when the noise starts to recede a bit. I like how Shunryu Suzuki compared it to taking a shit. You put things in your mouth all and you have to shit them out eventually. The same goes for sensory impressions and thoughts. Zazen can feel like a good cleaning.

>inb4 someone says we are perfectly okay as it is and no cleaning of the mind is needed or actually possible

Indeed, but the realisation of this may still be benefited by practice.

>>2495515
>reinventing the wheel instead of learning from predecessors
>probably doing it wrong too
>getting all angry and arrogant in the meanwhile

You're getting too obvious. Demoted to 6/10.

>>2495526

There is no need to learn from predecessors when you are a genius. Doing it wrong would be dedicating myself to it and not achieving any results; you obviously don't understand what is connoted by Zen. I am angry at idiots who stall progress, and I am not arrogant about meditation: I simply know what I've achieved.
P.S. You're like 5, right?

>>2495536

Long story short: If you're so fucking interested in arguing, if you're so fucking interested in knowing the truth, email me, I'll send you instructions, you can practice and see if you're any good, and that will be the end of the discussion.

>>2495542
>if you're so fucking interested in knowing the truth, email me

>>2495542
You don't sound very Zen.

>>2495546

Limited little program, go masturbate.

>>2495547
I am not Zen at the moment. I suppose you children don't understand that Zen is only permanent if the practitioner can meditate for an extended period (Buddha meditated 3 days straight). Otherwise it is temporary, and requires maintenance like one's muscles or one's mind.

>>2495555
You know so much, but understands so little.

Kensho: The Heart of Zen by Thomas Cleary. I know nothing about the subject, but it's short, provides references to the primary texts, and seems easy to read.

>Also...got it used for $2
>Nathan Rich apparently owned it before me and is now presumably a Buddha
>And thanks for leaving a bookmark in there Nathan

>>2495560

You're a poser.

>>2495565
I'm also not a Zen practitioneer.

>>2495574

It's not "Zen practitioner," you stupid fuck. A Qi Gong practitioner achieves Zen. You can't even get the basic terminology correct. That's how fucking ignorant you are, cognitive embarrassment. And perhaps someone here would have chosen to pursue meditation if not for your ignorant bullshit. You're a fucking disease.

>>2495563
because of the small chance that i am nathan reincarnated, i will say "you're welcome" on his behalf

>>2495584
Nigga just stop. Enough.

>>2495584
And yet he seems to get it better than you. Hmm.

Protip: you don't sell Zen with angry outbursts and then blame others when no one buys.

>>2494355
Fuck yeah, you're my kind of guy.

I will contribute this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY5r_zox-a8

And recommend Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind as well. I just took a class on Zen, and we read Moon in a Dewdrop by Dogen, Thich Nhat Hanh's Heart of Understanding and Mind of Love, all of which I found rather enlightening. Really though, the best way to "get" Zen is to just sit in zazen, practice, and join a zendo if there's a good one in your area.

I really like the writing of Gary Snyder as well, he's sort of my idol (which should tell you that I'm currently a weakshit Buddhist). Practice of the Wild is a wonderful book.

And all of you disdaining Zen as just another dogmatic religion are uninformed fools. If anything, it's merely a very practical philosophy.

>>2495587

Stop? Why? Have you realized what an embarrassment you are? You're tired of playing? Gotta get home for supper? Mom's making mac 'n cheese?

>>2495584
Good lord, you are a terrifying corruption of Buddhism. How can you be so arrogant and enraged? Are you so filled with 4chan that you cannot be a positive influence within it?

protip: I'm not selling anything.

everyone on this forum pretends to be so interested in understanding things, but when an actual opportunity arises, one that involves a measure of uncertainty and work, everyone just responds not with rational argument, but with their image search results.

>>2495602
May you gain insight in the near future.

>>2495624

May you remain a sexless, ineffectual nerd in the near future.

Greetings, /lit/!

Spectacles, testicles, brandy, cigars -- you're all popes! You're all absolutely infallible. I have the authority to appoint anyone a Discordian Pope, because I'm a Discordian Pope. The first rule after you become a Discordian Pope is to excommunicate every Discordian Pope you meet. This is based on the basic Discordian principle that we Discordians must stick apart.

Discordians don't have dogmas, which are absolute beliefs; we have catmas which are relative meta-beliefs. And the central discordian catma is, as I said before, any affirmation is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense. And if you repeat this 666 times, you will achieve supreme enlightenment -- IN SOME SENSE!

>>2495670

How boring you must be in real life.

>>2495670
>lol spaghetti monster we zen now

>>2495687
also the game

The Way of Zen by Alan W. Watts

>>2495685
Well, I am, but most people are, aren't they? And I don't see what quoting Uncle Bob has to do with it.

>>2495480


Agreed sir, I would call Diogenes a zen master, and I also see the same parallels between cynicism and zen.

One that stands out in my mind is this idea to not become beholden to the preconceptions of others, Diogenes exemplified this, he went beyond shame and the norm, same with Hipparchia, a very interesting female cynic.

A lot of Diogenes stories are very zen, sometimes he is just a blame fucking douchebag, and if you read many zen koans, sometimes zen monks are also blame fucking douchebags.

But the reason they do it, is to enligthen others.

I actually talked to a zen priest in the some mountain monastery when I was in korea, and I asked him about the zen parable of Gutei's Finger, and asked, is it really acceptable to cut a boys finger off, and he said, yes, as long as it lead to his enlightenment.

IMO that veers drastically away from buddhist compassion.
Also, this thread is fucking win, that one guy thinking he is some kind of genius and then getting mad, lulz, zen is the opposite of mad bro, and I seriously love whoever keeps posting those awesome pictures of monks and buddhist children and the laughter, total winzone.

>>2495749
The most beautiful example of Diogenes zenlike tendencies is when someone tries to prove rhetorically to him why motion doesn't exist and he walks away.

Also:
>IMO that veers drastically away from buddhist compassion.

I think it doesn't. A pinky is a small price for enlightenment. Compassion doesn't always mean being nice to people, it means doing what's in their best interest. Upaya/skillful means and all.

>>2495749

I love how this moron is so myopic he states in the same post how any behavior is acceptable if it leads to another achieving enlightenment, but then goes on to state that the person who got angry in his attempt to persuade others to pursue enlightenment was clearly misguided. Someone post the picture of Stewie asking "Are you retarded?" Total. Win. Zone.
Do not confuse Buddhism with Zen. You can be a Buddhist without achieving Zen. Once you achieve Zen, you understand Buddhism, and as long as you maintain Zen, you will automatically keep in line with Buddhist teachings.

>>2495584
broken during your outburst:

>Right mindedness
The thought is free form lust
The thought is free from cruelty
>Right speech
He avoids harsh language, and abstains from it
>Right attentiveness

You are not any sort of Buddhist, sir. You should really orient yourself with the basics before you take on pretensions of being in any sort of position to teach others.

>>2495765

Indeed, or when he enters the home of a rich person and the butler says, please, don't spit on the floor, so he spits in his face. Douche bag move, but was the butler enlightened?

I suppose in that sense you are correct, compassion can push people into enligthenment, but there are koans about monks hitting a student so hard he died, and everyone was chill about it, I think the buddha would find that abhorrent.

I could be wrong. So what it depends on, is the consequence, and that's the conclusion I reached after talking with the priest.

Keep the pics coming, they are awesome.

>>2495772

You misunderstood my post, re-read it, but this time, try not to judge, just understand.

Principia Discordia

Temple of the Golden Pavilion

OP here I'll look into suzuki, my college library happens to have zen mind beginners mind

>>2496555

Zen mind beginners mind is good.

Are you just interested in reading about zen, or are you interested in making zen a part of your life?

>>2496555
Good idea, Shunryu Suzuki has a nice, friendly no-nonsense style.

Hardcore Zen might be something for you, it's quite an entertaining book linking to lots of older works in Zen - good starting point for Western kids I guess.

Here's the author's blawg: http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com.au/

>>>The thought is free form lust

I dunno if zen is for me after all.

I'm gonna go ahead and bump this.

Interesting stuff happening in this thread.

>>2495233
>Chogyam Trungpa - charlatan

Why do you think so?

How do I Zen Garden?

>>2494412
>Zen
>Japanese

Bodhidharma was Persian.

If you want to 'understand Zen', sit.

>>2497321

He was indian

>>2497348

Various koans and biographies by his contemporaries refer to him as a Persian. Perhaps others say that he was Indian.

His history is probably part mythology anyway. But wether he was Indian or Persian, he was a "blue-eyed barbarian" from the West, according to Chinese sources.

So the guy who dismissed Zen as being a Japanese thing is right in both cases. I would say that Zen as we know it came into existence in China, where Dyana teachings absorbed Taoist influences and were from there on spread to Vietnam, Korea and eventually Japan.

The focus on the latter is mostly because that is the variant most prominent in the Western conception of it. Everyone knows the archetype of the black robed Japanese Zen master, which is practically a part of popular culture. People even tend refer to anything calm, serene and perhaps minimalistic as "zen". Which isn't to say that other forms of Buddhism aren't prominent in the west. The Kwan Um school is one of the most prominent, which is Korean in origin. Certain Chinese schools and the Vietnamese Zen of Thich Nhat Hanh are also popular.

Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water

After enlightenment, chop wood carry water

>>2494483
this.

muuuu

bump for enlightenment

Don't bump dead threads unless you have something substantive to add.

enlightenment is substantive

Nietzsche viewed Buddhism as a kind of nihilism, a denial of life or suffering.

He thought of suffering as something good in a person's life, because it forces them to become better, to reach potential, or die trying.

Would he also view a Samurai as a kind of nihilist, because Bushido is largely zen influenced, or is the Samurai a good exemplar of saying yes to life?

>>2500317
nishitani was a buddhist philosopher who worked with nihilism, he studied under heidegger also. he has som cool things to say about western philosophy.

>>2500324
particularly exploring the relationship between nihility and sunyata

>>2500317

Buddhism was borne out of suffering. Nietzsche was miserable and simply trying to justify his inability to find peace.

>>2500317
Nietzsche probably kind of misunderstood Buddhism or at least only had a knowledge of the ancient Indian version. Then again, he ascribed the same sort of 'tiredness' to Epicureanism. In a way he has a point, in the sense that they aren't compatible with the sort of brute vitalism he seemed to praise in a lot of his books. I like Nietzsche's work, but part of it seems a kind of out of place hero/machismo cult, at least to modern standards.

If I would look at what the Übermensch would be that modern society needs, it would be more of a Bodhisattva than a Borgia.

nishitani says nietzsche comes closest to buddhism in his ideas about amor fati and eternal recurrence

makes sense

>>2500324

What did Nishitani say on the subject?

>>2500346

That may well be, or his experiences lead him to some truth?

>>2500489

I'm unfamiliar with Borgia, please elaborate.

>>2501593
Nietzsche said the Übermensch would probably be more like Borgia than Parsifal. Cesare Borgia was, in short, a highly intelligent power hungry Spanish nobleman in Renaissance Italy, who also was the inspiration for Machiavelli's Il Principe. To me this suggest a rather "worldy" kind of man, a politician almost. Which doesn't seem like the kind of type to change things nowadays. We're getting to the point where a lot of important change in mentality is cultural rather than political.

>>2500317
>Would he also view a Samurai as a kind of nihilist, because Bushido is largely zen influenced, or is the Samurai a good exemplar of saying yes to life?

I would say it is a rather life affirming nihilism. Nietzsche used nihilism against his 'enemies' as a term that meant turning away from life. The Christian resorting to an afterlife, for example. The modern use of nihilism is more associated with the denial of inherent value or meaning. The latter is what Nietzsche did himself, but which is also an integral part of (Zen) Buddhism. In Buddhism this is called Sunyata or emptiness. Another similarity is the Buddhism concept of anatman, no-self, which Nietzsche ascribed to himself in a way.

Buddhism, especially Zen variants, could be said to have gazed into the abyss, but still maintained a vital way of life. Buddhism is in that way a nihilism that embraced life as such. It could even be said that by learning to be suspended in not knowing, by living in it, nihilism is already overcome as a crippling problem. Emptiness is found, accepted, and life continues stronger than before, because there is no foundation that can crumble anymore, it suspends itself wholly.

It's beautiful.

Bodhisattva was a douchebag. He's born into a privileged existance and not allowed to find out about sickness, old age, death, poverty, etc. Fine, that's not his fault. Except when he does become aware of these things, what does he do? Does he try to prevent disease, use all of his princely riches to help the poor and starving? No. He decides to become a naval-gazing intellectual who's obsessed with himself instead of, you know, helping people. While he's resting his ass under that tree, people are dying of starvation and preventable illnesses, things he could have stopped had he remained royalty and spent his time helping his people.

>>2502126
>Bodhisattva was a douchebag.
>Bodhisattva

A Bodhisattva is one who is either enlightened and/or striving for enlightenment of all beings. It does not usually refer to the historical Buddha.

And you seem to miss the point in your accusations. While help with physical things is nice, it does not really solve anything. He wasn't capable of solving death like a God might do or something. He was capable of teaching people to stop suffering from the inevitability of death. This is about the best you can do for someone, taking away the problems at their core. His navel gazing made him come up with a system that helps humanity with its suffering. It's one of the most widespread and active paths of philosophy and practice in the world. And considering the worldly helpfulness: You could say that the historical Buddha has a hand in any kind act done out of Buddhist perspective. So in the end, his navel gazing was far more productive than, let's say, opening up a homeless shelter. There were plenty of people who could distribute rice, not so many who could come up with the things he did.

>>2502143
>A Bodhisattva is one who is either enlightened and/or striving for enlightenment of all beings. It does not usually refer to the historical Buddha.

Thanks for the correction.

But otherwise I stand by what I said.

>There were plenty of people who could distribute rice, not so many who could come up with the things he did.

And those people would be far more important than him. Let's not forget he could have used his great wealth to dig wells for clean water, distribute food/livestock to the starving, defend people from bandits,etc. Look up Norman Borlaug... he did more to help the world than Buddha ever did.

>>2502147

You're taking an overly simplistic view of it, I think. You should look into the social mores and responsibilities of a warrior cast prince in those days and the rigidity of societal rules. It's much easier to be an humanitarian in the modern west than as an ancient Indian prince.

Also, you seem to overlook the religious perspective of the day. Buddha was seen as someone who taught people to be released from suffering permanently. In a culture that believes in reincarnation, this is worth infinitely more than helping someone live ten years longer so he could start over in another life to suffer all over again.

Your modern, materialist humanism doesn't really apply to the situation of the historical Buddha.

>>2502149
Rigid social roles didn't stop him from running off and meditating, so they shouldn't have stopped him from feeding that poor kid or stopping those soldiers from abusing people. And reincarnation is a justification for the caste system, i.e., a justification for why some people get treated like slaves and others get to be parasites that live in luxury. Basically Buddha was morally bankrupt. He didn't help anyone, did he? he just told people that all of the injustice and suffering they faced "lol, it's not important". Try telling that to somebody watching their mom shit themselves to death with cholera because their village doesn't have a well.

This thread makes me want the buddha to have been aborted as a child.

1/2

>>2502156
>Rigid social roles didn't stop him from running off and meditating, so they shouldn't have stopped him from feeding that poor kid or stopping those soldiers from abusing people.
Running off to meditate was basically a culturally embedded practice in those days. It was acceptable, even though many of course didn't like that he did so.

>And reincarnation is a justification for the caste system, i.e., a justification for why some people get treated like slaves and others get to be parasites that live in luxury. Basically Buddha was morally bankrupt.
Reincarnation can be used for such purposes yes. It did so according to Brahmanic theory. Buddhism however went beyond the class system and in that way was pretty revolutionary. Buddha dedicated his life to the enlightenment and end of suffering of others. If that is morally bankrupt, I don't know what isn't. Apart from that, he helped plenty of people. Just, as a small example, consider the refuge he created for the hopeless with his monastic orders.

2/2
>he just told people that all of the injustice and suffering they faced "lol, it's not important". Try telling that to somebody watching their mom shit themselves to death with cholera because their village doesn't have a well.
There's more to life than the alleviation of material troubles. Look at societies where people have access to food, water, shelter and medical care. Are they free of trouble? Are all of their problems suddenly solved? Of course, the basics are very important. But that is just the beginning, not the end goal of any compassionate outlook. Even the wealthy suffer, grow old, sick and die. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with basic humanitarianism. It's just too simplistic to say that it is the sole and most important way of benefiting others. You can give people all the water they need, but as long as they are fearful paranoid cut-throats it won't help as much.

>>2502176
>Even the wealthy suffer, grow old, sick and die.

The wealthier are more healthy, and live longer than the poor. The wealthier have better, longer lives than the poor. And saying it's okay to ignore problems like lack of water and food to focus on bringing people "enlightenment," (whatever that is) instead is kind of like giving new shoes to someone with broken, bloodied feet. It's like saying, "look, I know getting those bones set and getting those lacerations sewn up is important, but it's not the only thing. Proper arch support in a sneaker is important as well, it helps the spine!" To extend the metaphor, Buddha was a shoe salesman in a world of people with crippled, bleeding feet.

>>2502177
Besides, don't you think the best way of encouraging people from being " fearful paranoid cut-throats" would be to do something about social injustice and economic deprivation. Basically, let's say you have a choice, you can save either Alexander Fleming, who developed penicillin, saving millions of lives, or you can save Buddha. The other will be erased from history. Who do you choose? I know this is a silly hypothetical, but I'm sure you get the point.

>>2502177
>>2502176

>Buddha dedicated his life to the enlightenment and end of suffering of others

Why have enlightenment when you can have religious dogma, eh buddha?

And as for ending suffering, what sort of a fool would do that? Suffering is just as important as happiness. Suffering is good.

>>2502188
i'm the humanist guy and i don't know what this is supposed to mean

>>2502184
>>2502187

Changing someone's perspective and experience is more important than changing outward circumstances, I believe. I would rather give a man shoes than pave the road, and I would rather put on sunglasses than render clouds. In the same way I would rather teach people how to deal with the inevitabilities of life than to alter those inevitabilities. Living happily is more important than living a few extra years.

Also, given the immorality of the rich, I wouldn't say materialistic routes lead to virtue. I do get your point, I just don't think that having a materially sufficient life is worth much without the right outlook. All values and judgements spring from your own mind, not from the external world. There are happy people living in squalor (just look at the ancient Cynics for example) because they have the right attitude. And then there are rich kids killing themselves because there's something deeply wrong with them. Interpretation and perspective of ones circumstances are the most important factor. Without that things would be merely neutral. Therefore I would say that I would save the Buddha. Saving millions of lives can be a good thing, but teaching millions how to live is even more important. Of course, these things compliment each other greatly and are not mutually exclusive. There are also many forms of engaged Buddhism that practice both, often with great perseverance precisely because of their Buddhist outlook.

>>2502191

On this we can agree.

>>2502196
I see what you're saying, but what if these are all fables designed to make people feel better about being forced live shitty, brief unhealthy lives in poverty while other people enjoy the obvious benefits of wealth. And are you seriously saying that people living in squalor should just learn to be happy with it? that's horrible. and yes rich kids do kill themselves, but so do poor kids, and i'm willing to bet poor people have higher rates of mental illness and suicide. basically, it seems like you're just glossing over the significant differences between the wealthy/privileged and the poor/exploited. it's facile to say that basically they don't matter. they do matter. and "teaching millions how to live" sound alot like "teaching millions how to be happy with their lot in life". and we used to think that lots of things were inevitable, and while death and illness may be, it's silly to pretend that we can't do a great deal towards alleviating suffering and deprivation, and fighting towards helping people in real, measurable ways is more important than telling them "hey, don't worry about the fact that the prince can provide for his family without work, be happy with the fact that your kids go to bed hungry five nights a week...he's no better off than you".

>>2502204
No, of course all those things matter. The ideal would be being happy with your lot in life and still constantly improving it. Sounds contradictory but it really isn't. One can be content and still better his situation.

Teaching millions how to live wasn't necessarily meant as teaching them to merely accept their fate though. Buddhist ethics are some of the most benevolent in the world and generally imply a lot of helping of others. I would think a change in mentality would change the material situation of people too, whereas a change in material situation doesn't necessarily imply high morality. A prince adhering to Buddhist principles will probably be more benevolent than most. And on the other hand, a poor man adhering to these principles might be compassionate enough not to have children he can't afford to sustain. Knowledge of the workings of cause and effect are most important in managing material things.

>white person is ashamed of own heritage, seeks to adopt eastern culture and religion

I've read this one before.

Does anyone have a good Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind link? I only seam to find one pdf, which translates poorly to a mobi file.
Thanks!

Or is there any other way to translate it?

>>2502354
Fuck you man, a fair amount of the East is ridiculously spiritually advanced compared to the West, it's a fact at this point

>>2502356
http://www.mediafire.com/?4s9wv8vrh884o9k

>>2502360

>>2502358
>>2502358
that's because a ridiculous amount of the east is atheist

>>2502358
Oh no, their God is greater than our God!

We must not allow a Godhood gap!

>>2502354

Should we abandon meditative practice in favour of drinking beer and shouting along with Viking metal?

>>2502386
both those things are stupid, one of them is fun.

>>2502386

Why don;t you just not waste your time with either because they are both pointless wastes of time and life.

>>2502354
>he gives a fuck about what others did

its sad and terrible as white guilt

>>2502401

everything, what you've done and what you'll do is pointless, bro

>>2502417
I think you mean 'that'

>>2502417
>everything, what you've done and what you'll do is pointless
No it's not. Don't you know that the point of work is to contribute to the ongoing mechanism of entropy of the universe? Haven't you read a physics book in your life ever, geez

Interesting points being made on both sides of the debate.

One could argue that, if people were given the teaching of the Buddha, to live more compassionately, and more wisely, there would in fact be an improvement in MATERIAL wealth for human beings.

If the rich are more buddha like, they will be more willing to help others, donate to charity, and raise the living standards of other people.

The buddha, as well as any philosopher, is vitally important to a healthy and functioning society. It contributes to a raise in morality, which applies to HOW WE USE something like science.

You could have a scientifically minded society that can EASILY FEED EVERYONE, like we do today, but we lack in morality.

If everyone was a buddhist, and we also had the same level of science, I don't think a single child would starve.

>>2502106

It actually is a bit similar to what a man of virtue or excellence would be from ancient Greece
. Someone basically good at everything, with the right mindset to be able to determine good from bad.

>2502113

I'm not so sure if zen is a denial of inherent meaning though. It seems inherently meaningful to become enlightened, to be compassionate, to be fully in the present moment.

Those things are inherently meaningful because they are good.

Yes, it is beautiful, and difficult to achieve, but nothing worth doing is easy.