/lit/ - Literature

Because no matter how much they try to deny it, academia loves traditional male gender roles.

Run on sentences, utterly meaningless dialogue, shallow characters who remain unchanged throughout the entire novel... How the hell did this guy get famous?

>>2489954

That must be it. People must be crazy about the boozing alpha male. There's nothing else in these novels.

>>2489960

the same way all literature becomes "quality" and "classic"...arbitrary cultural consensus

look to the culture not the text to understand why an author is successful...lots of writers aren't popular while alive because the culture just doesn't appreciate them, then 20 years post mortem they become Classics

its all subjective, tentative and subject to change

>>2489972
Not the anon above, but as an example we can quote some South-American writers, lots of them deal with very cultural situations.

>>2489972
>arbitrary cultural consensus

So you're saying that success is based on absolutely nothing?

>>2489989

Success has almost nothing to do with literariness. In fact, it often works against it.

>Win Nobel for "The Old Man and the Sea"

>children 70 years later ridicule your work as having "meaningless dialogue" and "shallow characters"

Try reading some actual criticism for a change. Now, clearly you're just asking for a handjob OP, so I'll just leave this here if you feel like reading something for a change:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/assessment/2012/03/ernest_hemingway_how_the_great_american_noveli
st_became_the_literary_equivalent_of_the_nike_swoosh_.html

I liked the descriptions of the water.

The rest sux.

And don't get me started on that "corn-cobby" William Faulkner.

>>2489997

Nobel prizes aren't given for works.

>>2489989

>So you're saying that success is based on absolutely nothing?

it's based on group psychology, for one reason or another...

there is no inherent value in the text, it's a matter of getting the right culture to project value onto a text

>>2489999
I can't stop laughing at the pic.

>>2489997

So you have no argument whatsoever. Typical. Thanks for coming out.

>>2490006

Then it isn't arbitrary. Although I see what you're saying.

>>2490005
They occasionally single out works as a reason for their awarding it to the person though, as in the case of Hemingway, though the more important part of his Nobel blurb is "...for the influence he as exerted on contemporary style."

>>2490005
>Stockholm, Sweden, Oct. 28--The Nobel Prize for Literature was awarded today to Ernest Hemingway. The Swedish Academy, which presents this laurel, said of the 55- year-old American author in its citation:

>"For his powerful, style-forming mastery of the art of modern narration, as most recently evinced in 'The Old Man and the Sea.'"

Way to attack the messenger instead of the content, fagbag

>>2490015
Fairly sure the burden of proof lies on you with this one, bucko, given that you're the one making the extraordinary claim that Hemingway sucks, despite all evidence to the contrary

>>2490031

You do realize that the "burden of proof" only applies to law, right?

Also, I clearly stated that it was simply my belief that he was awful.

Still waiting for all this "evidence to the contrary" though.

reminder that aesthetic quality is fundamentally not accessible to proof

neither the "extraordinary claim" that hemingway sucks, nor the claim that he is a genius, can be proven, despite the correctness of the latter belief. that's the way the faculty of judgment works yall. stop hurfdurfing about logical fallacies and burden of proof.

>>2490074

>despite the correctness of the latter belief.

If it can'[t be proven, how do you know it's correct?

>>2490078
because i looked at hemingway's corpus of works as i've read them and thought about it and compared it to other things i had seen and read and judged it to be good

those are all reasons for judging as i did, but they're not really proofs, do you see. it was a free determination of my mind, not a logical statement, and you could come to a completely different judgment about which we would certainly disagree but in a larger sense you wouldn't be WRONG.

Whether or not you give a shit about hunting, fishing, bullfighting, or the other tryhard-macho exploits of Hemingway (I don't, drinking is probably the only thing we have in common), it's difficult to deny the ubiquity and impression his style's had on literature.

>>2490074
>reminder that aesthetic quality is fundamentally not accessible to proof
What do you mean by proof? A mathematical equation written down in a science textbook? Is this, like, a joke?

>>2490084
>because i looked at hemingway's corpus of works as i've read them and thought about it and compared it to other things i had seen and read and judged it to be good

Subjective belief.

>despite the correctness of the latter belief.

Objective statement.

Yeah, that adds up perfectly.

>>2490094
he must be choking to death from all the words you're putting in his mouth

>>2490094
>posts shitty analogy
Literature and music is pretty much subjective. It's about taste. You can discuss about complexity etc. etc. but you can't decide if something is "better" than another.

>>2490087
>it's difficult to deny the ubiquity and impression his style's had on literature.

Absolutely. My question is why has he made such an impact.

>>2490102
What words did I put in his mouth? i asked him a question??

>>2490104
How is it a shitty analogy? What do you mean by 'subjective' and what difference does it make to anything i've been saying? Why are you putting better in quote marks? Is it to signify that you can't say something is better than something else without declaring the relative relative sense? Obviously. So what's the problem?

>>2490104

Aesthetic criteria are formed in a rational dialectic with ones culture. They are not solipsistic and inexpressible. Saying that "better" is subjective does not mean that your opinion is of the same quality as a master's opinion. It does not make your position immutable.

whoah watch out everyone habermas discovered 4chan fucking hell

It's OK. Not great, but you have to appreciate minimalism when it's executed properly.

>>2490105
There's a translucence which lends a lot of his prose a force that's reduced to a mere prod by more elaborate language. With regards to bullfighting, say, it is what it is; you can wax Proustian about the embroidery of the matador's garb, but ultimately you're talking about a man who could very possibly be run down by a sociopathic cow.

That was something that just simply wasn't done before him, and is often done badly since.

OP, have you not read literature from before Hemmingway, seen the trends, and then looked at lit after Hemmingway and seen the subsequent trends?

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Hemingway just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory. When it comes to emotion and change, more is left to what isn't said outright than what is on the page. I bet you all think The Sun Also Rises is a collection of drinking stories. Also those of you that think he has a boner at the end and wants bone Brett. ololol

>>2490147
(cont.)
I do agree with you with regards to dialogue, Hemingway often can't into it.


This is all very hard to say, as a Fitzgerald fanboy.

captcha: suidnad Slavonians.

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs/Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory

>>2490160
Get out of here D&E, we saw the post where you forgot to remove your trip

>>2490160
The man is just arguing with himself, how lonely

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs/Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs/Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory.

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs/ Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs /Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory

>>2490186
>>2490207
>>2490218
>>2490219
>>2490226
Thread derailed, meme created

I can't quote everyone in this thread who hates Rothko/Duchamp/Warhol/Burroughs/Tao Lin just because they don't get how to read iceberg theory

We're going too deep

gee i sure hope no-one screencapped those 4 posts I made like a minute ago

why do people still reply to the fake d&e?

>>2490237

now that's fucking meta

>>2490237

shut the fuck up you gaping vagina, no one cares. go back to fucking your nephew you goddamn nephew fucker.

D&E still crying in here?

Fun fact, D&E goes out of his way to post as anonymous in support of his earlier tripfag post:

>>2490237
>>2490261

Fun fact: Satan is retarded

I have read 'Old Man and the Sea' by Hemmingway.

It was a good read, I really liked the book. I am not a native English speaker though and read it in English, but I liked Hemmingway's prose.

Because he demands a certain level of intelligence and effort from the reader to extract the true meaning of his stories.

In other words, read them properly.

>>2490275
>>2490279
Tripfag fights are fun!
Please continue! :-)

>>2490279
I agree entirely!

>>2489960
he put a shotgun to his face and commented on war, a subject everyone was into at the time

>Writes about the horrors of war
>Look it up
>He drove an ambulance for two months

>>2490344
Oh my god did I laugh fucking hard

not only did he write about horrors of war, he did it so melodramatically.

>>2490369
>>2490344
"And then he walked into the rain."

Apparently that story about him picking up body parts from an explosion during WWI is bullshit.

>>2490344

>>2490323
cheers

>>2490323
>>2490396
lol

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Samefag everywhere.

>>2490380
>makes /lit/ meme
>couldn't use tenses

>>2490380
hahahaha what the fuck man

>>2490419

You forgot the part where he was shelled and ended up in a hospital and was a journalist during World War II, where he won a bronze star. You're right though, Hemingway doesn't have any right talking about war.

>>2490458
That's Conrad

People like to compare his work with an iceberg. You only see so much at first and gain more insight upon second or third readings. To me, The Sun Also Rises was a simple romance at first, then I learned it was rumored that Hemmingway lost the functionality of his penis in the war from shrapnel and it took on a whole other meaning.

>>2490380

I can't really think of a better position to be in to see the horrors of war than that. Love the idea of someone sitting at their keyboard and criticising a man who voluntarily put his life on the line. How many more months do you think he should have done it for before he qualified to write of the horrors he must have seen?

Also, Stephen Crane.

YOU SEE, WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS PRODUCING QUALITY AUTHORS, THE US JUST COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH THEM.

SO WE GOT STUCK WITH THESE GUYS

WHY DO YOU THINK AMERICANS TRY TO HARD TO SAY LOLITA IS AN AMERICAN WORK?

>>2490560

>australia

>>2490560

>implying that the United States hasn't consistently produced some of the greatest, most praised authors in literature

BUT IF I TYPE IN CAPS, THEN PEOPLE WILL BE TROLLED

I will slap every single one of you in this thread. Not excessively hard, just enough so that you know you have done wrong.

I realize some of the level-headed people of the thread were included in this, I'm sorry, the cancer has progressed to far and all must be cleansed.

>>2490563
I'M NOT A NATIONALIST.

>>2490566
NAMELY?

PERHAPS IT'S BECAUSE QUALITY AUTHORS ARE IGNORED. IF THEY'RE NOT FROM AN ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY, EXCEPT A SMALL HANDFUL, THEN FUCK THEM! YEAH.....


NO

>>2490569

>can't refute the fact that American authors are held in high regard
>WELL THEN THE SYSTEM MUST BE RIGGED

fuck off, dude

go piss on another board

Faggot ass niggaz can't into Hemingway.

Real ass niggaz can't neither. I love him but that's it.

I didn't see what the big deal was for the longest time until I read "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" and I was completely blown away. One of the best short stories I ever read. Gotta read some more of the short works, bro.

>>2490572
I'M JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE WE'RE ALL FROM WESTERN NATIONS, THAT IN EVERYTHING, WESTERN WORKS HAVE HIGHER PREVALENCE.

DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE BETTER

AND THE SAME IS REPEATED NATIONALLY.

I MEAN, THINK OF THE SHIT I HAD TO READ IN HIGH SCHOOL, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PROMOTE AUSTRALIAN 'LITERATURE' IN OUR SCHOOLS. THE SAME WOULD BE REPEATED IN THE US, EVEN THROUGH TO TERTIARY STUDIES.

>>2490680
The United States has produced 11 Nobel Laureates in literature, the second-most of any nation behind France. And the Nobel Committee certainly doesn't have a pro-American bias. Yes, a lot of those are immigrant writers, but American culture is an immigrant culture. It seems reasonable to say that America has produced some authors who are worthy in a wide context.

>>2490680
It's nice how my eyes slide right over caps lock. It's like I'm not reading your post without even having to think about it.