/lit/ - Literature

>How do I make it better?
Edit it and revise it as you see fit.

>Is it even a poem?
http://elemming4.blogspot.com/2006/07/how-to-recognize-poem-when-you-see-one.html

>. How do I make it better?

The first thing you should do is read it again, and again, and again, etc. and etc. Also have other people read it and record their responses. You should also record your responses right after you read at the end of a few days rest from the work. Annotate and rearrange toward what "feels" best. Besides that, I cannot help you. Poems are not my thing...

As it stands, is this a good poem?

It's too straightforward. This is not a poem. You gave everything away too easily.

sylvia plath said that poetry is a closed fist, i.e something that has to be pulled open.
this poem is a hand waving at me.
dont get me wrong i think you have potential, i just think like the other poster said, its too obvious. this is just oddly written prose really.

>implying public breastfeeding is to be frowned upon
>implying it isn't a glorious naturally beautiful thing to see a young mother caring for her child

>>2414144
Author seems to be an asshole dismissing public breastfeeding
Fucking americans

>>2414183
>>2414189
This has to be the most retarded argument I have ever read.
There are loads of famous and straightforward poetry out there.
Also, what might seem obvious to one self might not be to another.

>>2414193
>>2414210
I suppose this is what I need help with!
I wasn't trying to decry breastfeeding at all. I just realised I hadn't given any insight into what a ragged bogan fuck the woman is. How can I tell more about the woman while being less obtuse?
Thank you so much for your replies so far, I really appreciate it.

>>2414824
Why the fuck would you remove the only thing in the poem that evoked any kind of feelings?

That is just stupid.

>The title just needs to be: 'Breastfeeding in McDonalds' Not that many men breastfeed.

she isn't proud, just shameless (show dont tell)
her last shred of dignity left with her husband (constipated text)

the child clings to her cardboard breast (cardboard breast, what is that. I get no clear image really albeit an interesting description)
he was perhaps unexpected, now definitely unwanted (Like this)

a pregnant teen shifts uncomfortably next to her boyfriend
she loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it's too late to abort
(nice end, but you could rewrite to make the effect better)

Also, line up your poem and count the syllables
1.she isn't proud, just shameless
2.her last shred of dignity left with her husband

1.the child clings to her cardboard breast
2.he was perhaps unexpected, now definitely unwanted

>>2414824

It's a little too straightforward, and a little too much of a polemic, Art thrives on ambiguity and multiple interpretations.

This is a good example, and should have been used in the poem since "bogan" can mean both "Holy" and "Degenerate" in the same way that simple means both "clear and obvious" and "stupid", and natural means both "arising from elemental processes" and "insane"

>>2414842
Thank you thank you thank you!
I've sorted the title and will work on the next few lines.
>cardboard breast, what is that.
I wanted it to seem dry and flat and thin, I'm not sure if that's the best way I could describe it though.
I'll figure out a tighter way too end it too.
Btw, should I be looking for an even number of syllables in each line? I don't really understand poetry.
Thank you kindly for your help!

I mean it's not total shit, you should definitely keep writing. There are things I like about it, you definitely have talent wrt writing words in an order, but on hte other hand something like that first line "she isn't proud, just shameless" - it's fne poetically but the sense of it isnt there, it's too obvious & also the construction and the sentiment do not match. and i don't know if shameless is even the word you want, but matching it with proud like that doesn't work for me. similarly "now definitely unwanted" is far too obvious. but the ending is rl good and yeah i dig your style.

I really liked the idea OP, but I find it very direct, perhaps revise your execution?

>>2414842

>cardboard breast

I thought the cardboard breast was a reference to the mum drinking milk-like shake from a McDonald's disposable cardboard beaker. On that basis, I rather liked the image of the natural being replaced by the consumable and chargeable and then mediated into the kid.

Now I read that the writer meant dry and flat and thin, I realise and remember that authorial intent is meaningless, and my interpretation is better. So everyone's happy.

>>2414865
>i don't know if shameless is even the word you want...
I wanted to convey that she wasn't proud to show off her baby in public, something I assume most breastfeeding mothers are. I'm not sure if there's a better way of saying that though.
>now definitely unwanted
I'll think harder on this.
Thank you!

>implying breastfeeding in public wrong
Baby's gots to have their eats bro.

Also this is way too obvious.

>>2414847
>>2414847
Let me guess. You like DFW?
You are a fool. OP should not listen to this. First finish your poem.
>>2414854
You have a great starting point. A clear idea. Now you need to find the right words.

A cardboard breast might not be the best choice, but keep thinking and it'll come to you.

Sometimes you might need to take a breather and come back.

You count syllables, not necessarily so that every line should have the same amount. You could have a structure like..

1. 3 syllables
2. 5 syllables

1. 3 syllables
2. 5 syllables

Or no structure at all.
But you should count syllables because it will make you realize where there might be errors.

Having a that is 3-4 syllables, and the next one being 14 is not always that good.

See if you find anything. I'd suggest that after the end of every word you write the amount of syllables


she1 isn't2 proud1 , just1 shameless2 = 7
her1 last1 shred1 of1 dignity3 left1 with1 her1 husband2 = 12

There is a gap. Perhaps you could remove "last shred of" Her dignity left with her husband, or perhaps add something in line 1.

>>2414881

Nah, DFW can suck my... tit, I guess. Obscurity is not the same as ambiguity. OP writes like an inner city black poet form either the sixties in America, or the African bush today.

No offense if he really is a black or a bog-trotter,which was guess number two. I actually think that the poem would have more bite if it were a little more wry and ironic, which the Harlem guys didn't get till they got out of the Renaissance.
and into the enlightenment, and then dove right back into PC hell

and that's why it's weird to read OP's prose-thing.

He's got the technique of the hippie-feminist-ecofreaky politico-anachartiste down, but he seems to be being PC with a P that's across the aisle.

It does have some impact, though. I just think we mostly agree: you want him to fix his scansion and structure, i think he needs to be more brutal and broad.

>ragged bogan fuck

that is a joy of a word too, and would help the concept of the poem. The holy and degenerate connotation is exactly right, since both holy and degenerate things aren't things that are usually accepted as done in public (you don't perform a sacrifice and read entrails in a restaurant, and you don't fuck a goat there, either)
It's being such an earthy and powerful word just helps to get he point across, and also make the point that what's being objected to isn't the act, or even the location, but the social and economic position of the woman, or possibly her life choices. I'm a little vague on that.)

She was once proud.
An abomination of moral practices with this whimsical outlook on life.
Bright happiness of sunlight beaches, and moonlight parties with her peers.
 
The months passed, soon she felt dread.
She clinged to her drooped bossom, 
the weight felt heavier than the weight of one's soul when dreaded with such heavy burden.
 
Her years were young, so filled with life.
Now she nestled those same hopes and dreams with her only bundle.
Cradle to her left swollen nipple, lips parted for a quenched thirst of something warm and delightful.
Its mouth motioned quickly to her areola.
One could almost see a parted smile. 
 
She let in a fresh, air conditioned breath.
That was it.
No one watched. No one cared.
The once beautiful man that took her soul to new expectations and levels, now sat whispering sweet nothings to his dry, crusted and foul smelling food.
 
She loosened her small grip on the man's hand. 
A small portion of water fell down her blotchy, reddened face.
Would she ever chase those sweet summer days again? 
With this "thing"? 
It suckled away.
Each eager drink drained the remains.

>>2414969
No. This poem is an abomination.

great title, bad poem

poetry isn't just a hodgepodge of vague incomplete thoughts arbitrarily arranged into lines

>>2414990
Lolok

Has no grace, lacks subtlety, and conversational.
The voice is not from you, but of the "moment" you are creating,

>>2415061
>The voice is not from you, but of the "moment" you are creating,
I meant that as: the voice -should- be of the moment...

>>2414969
I don't think you understood OP's poem.

>>2415075
Is it 2deep4me?

>>2415076
probably not, but as far as i can tell the woman's husband had "left" as in "got the fuck out" and that the preggers girlfriend watching is worried her boyfriend will do the same

>>2414842
>The title just needs to be: 'Breastfeeding in McDonalds'

I disagree. I think it's important that 'Woman' is in the title because it explains what the first stanza is talking about. Otherwise there might be some confusion between the woman and the girl with the boyfriend.

Why is 'she' on one line?

i really like the concept but it is a tad obvious. also the first line doesn't make sense as shame seems to be a antonym to pride and the way you wrote it makes it look like a diminutive form, if that makes sense.
also yeah the preconcieved notions are a bit bland and cliche and I'm not saying you shouldn't feel a certain way about it, these feelings seem like a watered down tv movie on oxygen.

also it seems to me the internal logic is a bit shaky, as you know what the pregnant teen is thinking, but only guess what the mother might be. also I would take out "uncomfortably, or reword the sentence entirely. as someone else said, this type of poem would improve with some more showing and not telling, as it already involves simple actions that mean a lot.

>>2414969
besides the last line, which is nice but not really worth the build up, OP's poem is way better and less of a struggle to get through imo.
while OP is somewhat artless in their prose, the idea is strong, while this is cliche, smug, and overwrought.

like jay z said, make every song like its your first op, this is what happens when you think you are now a poet.

What's with you ugly woman,?
i heard your infant's caw
and turned in time to see you
slop your dug into his maw.
It wa'nt his fault he wasn't asked,
he never thought you so half assed,
the protomilf beside you chokes
and takes her hand from out her blokes,
and glances off, so not to see
and thinks about a D & C.
I can't abide such lax-y ways
I may not come again for days,
this wanton, feckless titty stuffin
puts one off ones egg mcmuffin

>>2414144
if you frequently wrap the text in many lines, it doesn't mean you're writing "poems".
lrn2literature, murrikans

I like how /lit/ actually analyzes whatever the fuck you honestly ask them too.

>>2414881
I will try this and maybe find a nice lil pattern.
>>2414923
I'm not sure where I could work 'bogan' in, but it's very Australian and I feel it could give it more context.
>>2414969
nah
>>2415149
How can I clear up 'her dignity left with her husband'?
I want it to mean that her dignity was taken when her husband left her, not that her husband is sitting to the side or whatever.
>>2415181
I've fixed up the logic now and it seems a lot tighter. Thank you. I'm still trying to figure out the last stanza though.
>>2415192
I love Jay-Z.
>>2415201
This is fantastic.

>>2415201

Thank you for making me believe there are good poets on /mu/

>>2415231
Here's my updated version btw:

'Breastfeeding in McDonalds'

she isn't proud, just shameless
her dignity left with her husband

the child clings to her cardboard breast
he was unexpected, now unwanted

a teenager shifts uncomfortably next to her boyfriend
she loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it's too late to abort

>>2415282

much stronger

>>2415282
This is better, but it still presents no strong imagery.

>>2416119
While I do really like it, stronger imagery would make it much better.

READ READ READ READ REAADDD! Read as much poetry as you can! The only thing better than practice is exposure! Go on amazon and buy as many poetry anthologies as possible! Look into everyone! Ginsberg, Kerouac, Whitman, Hughes, Mayakovsky, Blake, St. John of the Cross, T.S. Eliot, E.E. Cummings, Berryman, Dante, Virgil, ANYONE! Read more poetry = get better at poetry!

I don't know if this helps, but I rewrote OP's poem and tried to exorcise the aids. It needs imagery and more elevated language. Notice that I added a backstory to the woman through my description of her breast, which is exactly what a poem should do. It should pack as much meaning as possible into the lowest number of words, while remaining understandable and earnest.

she isn’t proud
just relinquished shame
last shred of dignity left with her husband

the child clings to her pasty bosom,
once voluptuous, now sagging slightly,
like wet cardboard against her ribs

a pregnant teen watches from another stiff chair
she loosens her grip on her boyfriend’s hand,
wonders if it’s too late to abort

>>2416325

Nah. That's worse. Stop hijoacking other people's work and write your own fucking poem. OPs is better.

>>2416325
It seems a bit prolix for my taste. I feel the revised version leaves more to the imagination and the sparse structure mirrors the meagre interior of an old McDonalds.

bump?

I've been stewing over the revised version ( >>2415282 ) for a few days and I don't like it at all.
'her dignity left with her husband' still seems a little ambiguous, but I've no idea how I can make it less so.
When's it time to give up on something like this and start afresh?

>>2416325
>elevated language
I tried to avoid this because it felt inappropriate.

>>2416267
>READ READ READ READ REAADDD!
I will.

Thank you everybody so much for all the help, it's been very useful!

It's not bad at all OP, but I'm not quite sure if it earns the page, if you know what I'm saying. It's lacking...sustenance in the middle, or so it seems to me. The opening and the closure are great, but I feel like another stanza or two in the middle would give it that extra bit that would make it earn the page.

In the mean time, I'd really appreciate it if you listened to this short poem I wrote. I think it works better on the page, but a friend of mine thought I should spoken word it.

Wind Tunnel

Do you know
if you stand in a tunnel
and you light a cigarette
and you inhale,
and you exhale,

the smoke will sink to the floor
and rush along the stones, flitting like
wisps of dawn mist
as the sun crests the horizon,

like a father coming downstairs
to the family room to find his children
asleep on the couch
with the television still on,
but turned down so quiet
you can barely hear.

Here's the spoken-word version; http://vocaroo.com/i/s0caXmf07qkb

>>2419189

Fuck, I actually fuck that up.

Here's the poem.

Do you know
if you stand in a tunnel
and the wind is blowing
and you light a cigarette
and you inhale,
and you exhale,

the smoke will sink to the floor
and rush along the stone, flitting like
wisps of dawn mist
as the sun crests the horizon,

like a father coming downstairs
into the family room to find his children
asleep on the couch
with the television still on,
but turned down so quiet
you can barely hear.

>Can't believe I forgot a line...

its shit, give up now

>>2419198
This poem is better than the OP's. Well done. You have a concept of rhythm and avoid being totally blatant.

op, that was a good poem
keep writing
you know it's fucking good because other "poets" are attempting to hijack your thread

I liked it, OP.
You convey a sense of dry hopelessness without abandoning the setting in lieu of the same sophomoric metaphorical fluff that all the other wannabes ITT are cramming into their 'work' (a term used here quite graciously)
Bravo.

goddamn that room looks amazing, OP. Thanks for helping me decide how I'll decorate. Definitely gotta be a rug on the wall.

>>2419412
I wan to stroke DEM furry walls

Goes down like lemon, tastes more like lime
A curious sip taken during mine free time
Under the fog so thick
Was where I met that prick
Staring back from the reflection
Not a trace of affection.

Reaching out to me,
that prick in the thick
Bruised and battered,
a soul completely cluttered.

The peace comes with sleep,
surely one day,
He'll rise to his feet.

--------------------------


First poem I have ever written.
What do guys think?

Never enjoyed these all that much, and certainly don't think I am good at them.

op and all those praising op have no idea what it is to raise a child or be a parent

>>2419939
to clarify, you're putting some bullshit onto the mother that she definitely does not feel. stick to writing about the feelings that you feel not guessing at what other people feel, especially when you have no experience with it

>>2414144
OP it's shocking it's deep it's raw it's 2012 in a nutshell, pregnant teens everywhere, women breastfeeding kids, cardboard boobs, you name it, it's here, this is hell, we're all in hell, you nailed that feeling, you deserve awards, you are unique, everyone likes it, they like you, cardboard breast, and pro abortion, more prophylactics, more 3d movies, always hungry, this was brilliant, you wrote the truth, who doesn't see it, where will it happen, could it be happening, it's 9pm where are your children, whats love got to do with it, she, william shatner-esque, pushing taboo, mores out the arse, do me 12 sugars, ronald mcdonald was born innocent, i declare western civilization is at an apex, we are falling now.

>>2419943
best poem in the thread

>>2419943
basically justified this entire thread

>cardboard breast
Are you an awkward fifteen year old American boy who can't resolve your attraction to women with your ass-hat male chauvinism? I'm trying, but I can't imagine a person who thought that the combination of these two words could possibly be artful in any context. If you want to talk about plastic breasts, or stone, or even bags of fat, its worth tapping into a cliche to avoid seeming completely and utterly incapable.

>shameless
Other people have addressed this, but it's incredibly unlikely that this is how she feels. If you really want to communicate your dick-head feelings pertaining to another person's behavior you should present them as your own, rather than stupidly projecting them onto the object of your observation. (Or, if you want your narrator to be mentally ill, acknowledge his projection in the poem.)

>abort
I find the pregnant teen to be psychologically unrealistic. Normal girls - particularly those interested in reproduction - see a mother feeding her baby and proceed to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

>Is it even a poem?
Looks like a free verse scrap, but I'm only saying that because I can't see you possibly writing a complete story of any sort.

>How do I make it better?
Burn it.

>>2419943
Amusing for about three sentences, then the meta-troll broke down.

>>2420059
one period = one sentence.
just jealous it says what you said as well as being poetical

I like it

>>2419943

We have a regular old Ginsberg among us.

hey guys could you plz rate my poem


Pig Eon

Soles seeking relief
tread over tracked
ditches, dug
out to its porch rug.

Through a farrow's narrow
fluttering frailly
tips the titan
barely, to-
a tough couch, plainly viewed

through a window situated
by its kitchen. Sated
lays this pigeon and
grated sits its cheese-
by iron bark askew,
through a turret tightly screwed,

granting Prometheus
gaze upon
his product's last
assumption; brittle
pink meat metal, rattled on.

Ahead thunders the
conveyor,
purporter for
consumption - pig iron,
Worn content outlining
dovish trough support.

Rate my peom:

Outside, warm sun
Washing over me like milk from breast.
go inside, milk is tar.
rolling,
drowning,
trolling,
browning
I'm a raisin.
Go to kitchen,
mother is crying.
Dad is mounted above the sink,
Nipples for teeth.
I turn around, close the door
Everybody walks the dinosaur.

use 'bogan fuck breastfeeding in mcdonalds' as the title instead, it'll somewhat explain your disdain

>>2421782
if you are in mcdonalds
and not inebriated
what's more, with a child
you deserve to be looked down on
no need for epithets as justification

>>2421804
that's what i believed, but everybody seems to think a woman breastfeeding is beautiful, regardless of if the context
i believe it is beautiful too, but in certain contexts, that beauty is removed and replaced with an air of destitution

>>2421815
you're right, the haters are cunts
>DO YOU HATE WOMEN GO BACK TO /R9K/
>YOU HATE WOMEN AND CHILDREN GO BACK TO YOUR BASEMENT AND DIE OF A YEAST INFECTION NECKBEARD
no, it's just sad to see a woman eating the worst possible food and passing it on via bodily fluids to her child; it's a potent metaphor/image

>>2421864
Do you believe it is justified to call a woman breastfeeding in McDonalds "shameless"?

>>2421918
yes sirree i do

>>2421918
It's not the breastfeeding that's shameless. It's the being in McDonald's.

so im thinkin of writing some poetry. i read a lot, but have't really ever tied rwiting any. any tips? should i try to start with basic metre and rhyme schemes or just have a go at some free or blank verse?

>>2422026
Start with the basics and learn prosody. Then you can get "experimental" (read: lazy) and make it "free verse."

>>2422014
which is more shameless? eating in mcdonalds or eating and and breastfeeding in McDonalds?

>>2422056
Breastfeeding

>>2422056
Taking a shit on the floor would only be marginally less offensive than either.

>>2422231
How can they be offensive unless you are there frequenting McDonalds?

>>2422234
we're not in mcdonald's right now (at least i'm not)
and yet the image of a woman breastfeeding her child in mcdonald's depresses me
and that society allows this to happen (that she isn't educated not to eat turds while breastfeeding) offends me
offensive in this case doesn't necessarily mean that i would go up to that woman and say: "miss, you're being offensive, cut that shit out"

>>2422256
>that she isn't educated not to eat turds while breastfeeding
>has never had children
Yeah, I'm sure you'll be totally different and fart rainbows on demand.

>>2422261
There's almost always an alternative to McDonalds.

>>2422283
Denny's, Jenny's, In n Out, Burger King, Little Chef...

McDonalds is so entry-level.

>>2422291
If I had a child they'd be raised KFC or maybe Pizza Hut. Yum.

>>2422295
>KFC
I have never got the obsession with this place. It's greasy cartilage. The meat isn't good at all. The batter is shit too.

>>2422298
I only like the boneless, but goddamn that shit is good.

>>2422307
>boneless
Cannot stop vomiting.

>>2422313
I dunno if you're from elsewhere or something, but here in Australia that shit is godly.

>>2422261
how poor are you that you imagine that as a parent you will be incapable of avoiding taking your child to a fast-food restaurant. or is america just like this across the board. wtf

>>2422382

I assumed most people here would be smart enough to ensure they had appropriate financial backing before starting a family.

>>2422485
There is no face for my family having been so poor that we could not afford fast food when I was younger.

It's also not like rich kids don't go to these places all the time either.

>>2422256
that isn't the shit part, the shit part is where you say the baby is unwanted. that's fucking an awful thing to think a mother would think, even a bogan woman.

>>2422485
you can't always plan your life perfectly

>>2414144

This seems to much like babby's first social critique. Maybe you should move out of the appartment that your dad pays for and stop being a judgemental twat.

>>2422585
cry more poor tears

>>2422602

I'm a typical medicine student without a care in the World; I'm just not sitting on a high horse, looking down on people who have made mistakes.

>>2422606
you poor and mad and jelly as hell

The moment all your hard work pays off (lol) you'll be right here with us.

But for now, stay mad poorfag

>>2422606
>>2422606
Medicine is the biggest mistake you could choose.
Enjoy being poor and worthless
>Ph.D. in Math
>any job I want
>$300k starting

>>2422608
>>2422613

Your jobs have nothing to do with my point. At the moment my life is carefree, so my opinion isn't skewed by "poverty". I'm just not a fan of people feeling better than others because they are more priviledged.

>>2422616
essentially you are a poorfag

>>2422616
Cry more poorfag.

>>2422555
It happened so often in the town where I used to live. People got knocked up so they could get the $4000 baby bonus and buy a flatscreen or new rims or smokes or whatever and then they'd just pawn the babby off to their clucky mothers or leave them with grandparents. Not all parents are as loving as you (and I) would like like to think.

>>2422606
So, are you going to become a surgeon, and actually make some money, or will you waste your education like 90% of the docs out there?

>>2422638
>implying general practitioners don't make more money with less training
I see someone is an authority on medical employment

>>2422840
somebody is from america rather

>>2422613
we hire you guys to be ITfags at 70k a year

I just read this and thought of you guys
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-11-10/news/30384749_1_mexican-girl-abortions-young-mother

>her last shred of dignity left with her husband

I like this line. Maybe trade "her husband" for "the father" to make it pithier.

>>2424969
Thank you!
How does this sound for an almost final product?

‘Breastfeeding in McDonalds’

she isn’t proud, just shameless
her dignity left with the father

the child clings to her cardboard breast
he was unexpected, now unwanted

a teenager shifts uncomfortably by another
she loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it’s too late to abort

>>2425016
Change every instance of
>breast
to
>butt
and I think you'll be in business.

>>2425024
>buttfeeding
That's my fetish.

>she loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it’s too late to abort

should be

"she loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it’s too late"

>>2425096
in the newest version it's not apparent she's preggers until the last word of the last line

>>2425068

>>2425170
still better without "to abort"

also change "unwanted" to something like "burden too heavy" or w/e

Too raw and real for you, my brother?

>>2414144

>loosens her grip on his hand and wonders if it's too late to abort