/lit/ - Literature

>the bidenboat is sinking

>>23536980
I believe

It's sad that conservatards actually believe neoliberalism failed rather than took over the whole world. Modern conservatives are in fact just mentally retarded neoliberals.

>>23537049
it took over the whole world and much fewer people have a healthy relationship with their family and spouse (if they have one), more people are depressed and addicted to their cell phones and all we got was uber eats and netflix

>>23537077
I agree with you, neoliberalism is dogshit. But it didn't fail, quite the contrary. It succeeded and humanity is royally fucked now.

>>23536199
It really is insane to me. I remember in 2012 when Obama beat Romney a lot of people were saying that conservatism was a dead ideology and that the Republican party was circling the drain. A decade later it almost feels like the opposite is true. Trump humiliated the Dems in 2016, and will most likely do it again this year. The SCOTUS now has a conservative supermajority for the foreseeable future and managed to kill Roe v Wade. to be honest, Trump probably only lost 2020 because of the COVID outbreak. Throughout the western world the liberal technocrat types like Trudeau, Macron and Scholz are getting bodied, with the UK probably the only outlier. After Romney, there was a big confusion among libs as to why conservatives were not moderating, and now the answer is clear - because they did not have to

Trump and his ilk might be clowns but it is clear that they have tapped into a rage against the status quo that is very real, one that the liberals are seemingly to acknowledge.

>tfw we might actually get the downfall of the United States in my lifetime

Last night was exciting, and not just for the memes. We're in uncharted territory here and the facade of American democracy is running out of rope. What's on the table? Balkanization? Soviet-style collapse? America becoming a monarchy of some type, like Rome did? Trump winning in 2016 gave me permission to dream of odd futures, of a true End to the End Of History, of things Happening again, big things, dramatic things. But last night feels even more significant. The lie can't be kept up, not too much longer. What happens in the next few months and years will almost certainly alter America, and the world, as we know it. I'm so excited.

>>23537077
>spouse (if they have one)
Yeah, you don't have one lmao.
Liberalism is no doubt shit but you're a seething incel hating on something not because it's bad but because you're a loser who can't do better. Liberalism is a more nuanced problem than it's le bad because women don't want me.

>>23537194
Just wait until Trump gets in power again and you realize that everything will be the same shit as usual since history actually did end and liberalism still persists despite its exhaustion because the will of the people is exhausted

>>23537194
>t. poster on an American website using American technology
The US already won. Its cultural achievements have permanently changed humanity.

>>23537049
The point of the book is not that liberalism failed in becoming hegemonic. It is that it became hegemonic but failed in leading to a better society.

For Liberalism to work, it is necessary to have a culture that generates a virtuous population that can manage itself. Otherwise, the population would be better under a government like that of Singapore, enlightened despotism.
Liberalism destroyed this culture, which it depends on in order to have a decent society. So, we now have journalists promoting promiscuity, people claiming recreational drug usage is not bad, etc.

Which leads to a worse society.

>>23538084
For liberalism to work there needs to be a meritocratic elite class running things. Everything else is bullshit.

>>23538084
This, the book's title is a meme just like The End of History. He's not literally saying that liberalism failed and that it's going to collapse, it's that liberalism is inherently contradictory and its continued successes have led to a world in which its principles aren't realized because the way the system works is self-defeating. More freedom leads to less freedom, more democracy leads to vulgarity and immaturity instead of rationality, the need to liberate all peoples has led to the demise of other cultures, etc etc. The apocalypse isn't on the horizon, but the values and culture of liberal societies are in severe decline and right now we really don't know what to do about it except elect people like Trump and hope something happens. And that's not enough

What is the point of reading books which tell you things you already know and personally perceive every day? Do you really need to read hundreds of pages to tell you that everything is shit and worse still it's all downhill from here?

>>23538058
Perhaps someday through recurrent neo-dark ages we will forget what McDonalds and pornography and Netflix were.

>>23538158
And the countless talented scientists, engineers, writers, illustrators, filmmakers, and game designers that this country gave birth to. D&D, for example, one of the greatest artistic achievements of the 20th century, is American.

>>23538097
The elite class doesn't run things in a modern liberal society, their upper middle class servants do. Liberal elites were mostly bungling everything from the beginning because, despite their somewhat meritocratic selection process and high level of human capital, they were(and are) simply working off of bad assumptions. For an example, read 'The Best and the Brightest' to see how these guys did everything wrong in the Vietnam War despite being objectively brilliant. Despite always being wrong though, they always got bailed out by the unstoppable momentum generated by the class just below them, the engineers and contractors and bureaucrats, and it is this tier which is now being gutted by liberal policies.

>>23537199
I just broke up with my gf, but I’d say the bigger issues is so many people putting off getting married to build a career.

I’m not really a retvrn type guy, just pointing out the fact that people are lonelier than ever

>>23538175
Yeah I forgot pencil pushers and fantasy toy makers.

>>23538198
It's okay to be a philistine. Not everyone is born with a three digit IQ.

>>23538143
>The apocalypse isn't on the horizon, but the values and culture of liberal societies are in severe decline and right now we really don't know what to do about it except elect people like Trump and hope something happens. And that's not enough
That's the biggest issue.
Voting Trump won't make the culture go back to normal. It won't make Disney stop promoting trash values. It won't make young college students stop peer pressuring each other to use drugs and to be promiscuous even when many times they themselves don't even feel good doing it.

I remember when a Penn law professor got in trouble for writing:

>That culture laid out the script we all were supposed to follow: Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. Go the extra mile for your employer or client. Be a patriot, ready to serve the country. Be neighborly, civic-minded, and charitable. Avoid coarse language in public. Be respectful of authority. Eschew substance abuse and crime.

Because right now, young people are being educated to more or less believe the opposite of this.

>>23538153
Obviously you shouldn't limit yourself to reading what you already agree with, but it can help you put your vague intuitions into coherent arguments and can provide hard data that confirms what you previously merely suspected.

>>23538097
The thing is, that meritocratic elite ruling class no longer has to care about the wellbeing of their individual nations thanks to globalization

>>23538153
Sometimes you want someone to put into words the things which you feel but cannot describe

>>23536199
democracy is actually stronger than ever.

>>23538240
It's not a meritocratic elite class if it doesn't grasp that a combination of different attributes leads to strategic advantage and higher quality of life.

>>23538256
Meritocratic just means they're the best at passing whatever selection process their society uses to elevate people to the elite. It is hoped that the selection criteria selects for people who are fit for leadership, but it doesn't usually work out that way.

>>23538263
A meritocracy selects based on individual ability and talent. Anything else is a failed or faked implementation of it. What we need is a more scientifically backed criteria.

>>23538245
>>23538234
But the idea is that you have already realized and understood all the things OP's book talks about if you hung out for any length of time around culturally pessimistic online spaces.

>>23537187
The Bushcons are a dead ideology though

>>23537199

It's part of the crisis you can't put your head in the sand thinking there's no problem in relationships between male and female when it's about having a family together,be a home who actually contribute in society in so many ways.

>>23537194
Nothing will change tho

>>23537049
Like other anons said, the problem is that it achieved its hegemonical status through the destruction of the cultural and sociological means of its survival and reproduction. In which case of what use is the hegemonical status, really?

>>23537194
The defense state with the help of private partners will step in and turn the country into a high tech oligarchy-totalitarian police state. Its just a question of whether or not Trump leads it.

>>23537194
>What happens in the next few months and years
Only part I disagree with. Trump was already president. We know he's not the guy to cross all the Rubicons that need to be crossed. But yes, the regime is on its way out.
https://graymirror.substack.com/p/a-conversation-about-monarchy
In November we're fucking a balloon. Trump or Biden, his tenure will be sterile with no change to Washington. But the bareback election is coming. We'll go raw in our lifetime.
>Now and for the foreseeable future, any election is either plenary or nugatory.

>>23538202
Culture death for slop is not intelligent.

>>23536199
Mogs this plebbit slop

>>23536199
there are no "isms", there are only temporary solutions to the problems of the day. if a president "liberally" wants to save the national parks, but "conservatively" ban abortion, he is not an "ist" in any meaningful sense. focus on each issue, take the side you want, and ally with the people necessary to solve that issue then let it (and them) go.

>>23538669
Define slop

>>23538717
but there are Aristotle's 3 forms
>monarchy
>oligarchy
>democracy
and they do produce different societies

>>23538225
Liberalism is still hegemonic. It’s just shit and annihilates human ambition. And when the time comes that the masses develop a will for something greater than what we have now then liberalism is not going to be as strong. People think that someone like Trump or Le Pen represents that will but they absolutely do not. They’re liberal politicians who want things to be like 1991 again, that’s it

>>23536199
Anglo-saxon capitalism collapsed in the UK , and it WILL meet the same demise in the US as well. Ameen. Praise the lord Jesus . And hail communism .

>>23538785
According to Plato democracy is just an intermediary between oligarchy and tyranny, and I tend to believe him considering..

>>23537077
That’s liberalism working as intended, anybody who is dissatisfied with current conditions is categorised as depressed or suffering from a mental disorder. It reduces this dissatisfaction to an individual’s failings and removes the onus from liberalism to improve the overarching conditions which cause depression and addiction

>>23538949
>It reduces this dissatisfaction to an individual’s failings and removes the onus from liberalism to improve the overarching conditions which cause depression and addiction
That makes a lot of sense. Also, when considering arguments like those >>23537199 are quite common.

"If you dislike liberalism, that's because you are a loser"
Even when the person is very much not a loser. I think I have seen people calling Elon Musk of all people a loser.

>>23537049
Neoliberalism and neoconservatism as commonly used today are just buzzwords. The factual difference between the both is whether globalistic empire originating in US should be achieved and mainainted by economic domination via coopting every country into codependence of global economy (neoliberalism) or via hard power, interventionism, military adventures etc (neocons). They are both functionally liberal doctrines.

Anyhow, Trump has already won once, GOP had nominally full power, and even managed to put favourable team in SCOTUS. And all that still amounted to nothing. The only difference today in his situation is that he might be more acutely aware that it doesn't matter what he does, he'll never be accepted, ever. But I doubt even that will actually materialize into anything.
Moldbug has it right, at least as far as diagnosis of the present goes- all this, the house, the senate, the POTUS do not rule, they at most govern, or more precisely, administrate. The seat of actual power is academia, media, judiciary, NGOs and all the actual power has gone there, outside of the scope of government (which is entirely subservient to them) and any notion of electability or accountability. This oligarchy is not meritocratic in any way, shape or form, it selects ideas it follows not for how good they actually are for power they offer when applied, and selects its members for alignment with itself rather than selecting "best and brightest".

>>23538764
No

I think for some reason people keep incorrectly identifying liberal-progressivism as liberalism. They’re not the same and what’s failing is progressivism, not liberalism.

>>23537049
Here’s the thing, retard: The United States became the most powerful political entity in the world IN SPITE OF neoliberalism rather than because of neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is clearly an unmitigated disaster overcome by the enormous technical power and can-do attitude of Westerners. So it wasn’t so much neoliberalism that took over the world as the people with atom bombs and iPhones that just so happened to be neoliberal. You want to know who you know I’m correct? If the Nazis won the war, would they not also have dominated the planet? Of course they would have, and you wouldn’t call them neoliberal.

>>23537049
But you’re right that the contemporary GOP and MAGA are in reality just neoliberals, which by the way, means that neoliberalism isn’t really the mainstream American ideology. The 21st century American ideology is neoprogressivism. And it’s owned by the left. Liberalism disappeared in the progressive age and because progressivism. Progressivism disappeared in the civil rights era and become Neoprogressivism. You’re in left-liberalism 3.0, and that’s not neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is basically Raegan era politics. It’s totally different from the antiracism and LGBT military adventurism of the current State Department and court system.

>>23539019
They are the same.

>>23539041
At least someone rightfully recognizes Trump -- and I would actually say the majority of sitting politicians in US govt. -- as Neoliberal.

Progressivism, to me, isn't even a good phrase for it and should really be done away with. It's more a spiritualism, than anything, hinging on the fetishism of change due to death anxiety.

>>23538143
>it's that liberalism is inherently contradictory
No it isn't, but 'liberalism" isn't liberalism — libertarianism is liberalism. And there's nothing contradictory about libertarianism.

>>23539028
>>23539041
Neoliberalism is Marx's late capitalism and capitalism is why America won. This is a Humean economic system at bottom (Hume and Adam Smith were close friends, after all) and it is superior to all other economic systems because its violence is invisible and self-perpetuated.

>>23538175
>the countless talented scientists, engineers, writers, illustrators, filmmakers, and game designers
A relic of the past

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/06/01/complex-systems-wont-survive-the-competence-crisis/

>>23539399
>A relic of the past
Sure, but that relic still won.

>>23539010
based schizo

>>23539399
That’s the thing. All of these current people that run the world aren’t going to be replaced. The younger generations are fucking useless brain dead retards.

>>23540239
>The younger generations are fucking useless brain dead retards.
And why are they like that? Because the modern world fears pain. Everyone is coddled now. Everything is sugarcoated, literally and figuratively.

>>23540276
They’re like that because liberalism wants them like that but it forgot to plan ahead for the future so now they’re all panicking at the world they created. Every herd needs a shepherd. And they just didn’t create any.

>>23540282
Capitalism is the bigger culprit. It's economically efficient to remove boundaries. The self-exploiting hedonistic lifestyle of the average person is due to this globalist desire to remove boundaries.

>>23540298
Capitalism and liberalism are twin serpents always intwined, same with democracy and liberalism. They could exist independently but they typically don’t.

>>23537194
You should hope, really hope, that the "downfall of the United States" happens a very long time after your life ends. If you live through it, you will likely experience one of the most violent and terrible periods in history, and instead of getting to watch it online from the comfort of your NEETcave you'll get to starve or get forced to work in a warlord's field or get brutally murdered yourself, along with millions and millions of people just like you.
The idea that we need to either continue the status quo exactly or accelerate everything into a violent chaotic collapse is a false dichotomy, one which I almost believe is deliberately pushed by foreign powers or malicious domestic groups. The possibility to genuinely change the country and fix the problems which affect everyone does exist, but as long as we are collectively embroiled in this mindset of constricting maintenance of the way things are versus violent destruction of it all, we are blind to it.

>>23537199
what does that even have to do with what he said fag

>>23539192
We don't have any "late stage capitalism",which is an idea that is predicated solely on the assumption that capitalism one day will implode and be replaced by early-stage communism and as such exists in the heads of people who spend time on reddit.com.
In fact,w e don't even have any capitalism (or socialism for that matter) at all. Nobody even knows when was the last time we ever had such thing, and it probably can't exist. Instead we have global reserve debt-based currency, fiat. We have interest rates which are just state setting prices of capital. And if Adam Smith was alive to see any of it, he would go insane, much like average protagonist of any Lovefract's story which just so happens to be very apt comparison.

>>23540431
>If you live through it, you will likely experience one of the most violent and terrible periods in history, and instead of getting to watch it online from the comfort of your NEETcave you'll get to starve or get forced to work in a warlord's field or get brutally murdered yourself, along with millions and millions of people just like you.
As long as the people I hate suffer with me, thats a price I am willing to pay

>>23537194
I don't know why you chronically online retards are so obsessed with "things happening". "Thing happened" normally means people died and the world has become a worse place for it. Chances are when "thing happens" you will be caught in the crossfire, not watching from the sidelines with popcorn like you expect. "Nothing ever happens" is a good paradigm to live in, it means peacetime.

>>23540431
Civilization is older than the last 100 years, people have had the "ways to live without cracking each other's skulls open on the daily basis" figured out for many thousands of years now. Regimes rise and fall, many have done so already more or less violently and uncountable number of people like you sincerely did believe that a world will see sky fall on its head without Soviet Union or Her Majesty's Empire, and so far it still has not. You are not very unique in that regard.

There should be a type of liberalism that is not inherently capitalistic. It would of course have markets, and people owning private property, but economic growth and autistic profit seeking would not be it's inherent components. A society that is truly free, where people have the freedom to do things that are not inherently profitable, like the arts, philosophy and music and thus producing culture as a result.

>>23540568
Struggle gives meaning to life. A world at peace and without struggle is a world without meaning.

>>23540623
T. Whitetoid whose spent most his life in comfort and has never actually experienced hardship

>>23540623
T.

>>23540623
That's nice, anon. Feel free to go abroad and fight and die in a war if you think meaning is to be found there. I'm not sure what kind of meaning you think there is to be found in a war fought for war's sake alone, but be sure to report back to us when you find it.

>>23540623
Adversity is a good thing for personal growth but adversity doesn't have to be accelerationism and war, which is normally what people want when they say they want things to "happen". You can have adversity that doesn't cause death, injury or the complete collapse of civilization. Just admit that you have bloodlust and stop coping with this "suffering is meaning" bollocks.
>A world at peace and without struggle is a world without meaning.
That's completely incorrect, like I said above, adversity comes in all forms and does not need to be the abject level of suffering you are looking for. If you really believe this, then let the adversity come from the challenges of trying to reach that peaceful world, not from going in the opposite direction.

>>23540623
Struggle creates the ground from which an Übermensch can grow, who in return gives meaning to the earth and redeems the West.

>>23539166
liberalism is similar to libertarianism but different in many ways, and it is very contradictory. Neoliberalism kicked off under Pinochet, when Milton Friedman economically advised the brutal dictatorship on free market fundamentalism achieved through brutal oppression. Liberalism believes the state should give power to the private sector, and protect the private sector and use its powers to force other countries to accept the private sector, it supports globalization, monetarism and austerity, and must support the capital class when it inevitably fails.

Libertarians believe the government should be small and avoid oppressing people. Liberalism believes the government should be subservient to the capital class, and crack the whip on anyone the capital class tells it to in order to open up new markets or extract more value from its society. It requires the aid of oppressive dictatorships in some countries, and consumerists in others to function. Hence why the US claims to love freedom but allies with despots so frequently. There are many contradictions to liberalism. It's an inherently two-faced plutocratic ideaology. Libertarianism doesn't have to be that way at all. They're superficially related, but practically different, and the devil is in the details.

>>23540693
Wich is why the US-regime must change towards one that is liberal without being capitalistic.

>>23540568
I think with these people it would be liberating if society collapsed due to their own lack of agency. If you're a complete loser in life, then why wouldn't you also want to drag everybody else down with you? Everybody would be on the same playing field. It can also be because humans innately find death and destruction to be freeing even if we're all simultaneously afraid of it.

>>23540702
you can be a capitalist and not a neoliberal, the reverse makes no sense. Keynesian economics places the state as a market shaper. You could pursue Georgism and tax land ownership but not income, these system are regulated capitalist structures. You could support unions. Neoliberalism however is built on top of deregulated market fundamentalism, you have to be a capitalist for it to make sense. The neoliberal goal is to make governments totally subservient to the capital class. Being liberal without capitalistic has no meaning in the definition of "liberal" we're talking about. We're not talking about a desire for mixed economies, or support for trans-sexuals showing their genitals on the whitehouse lawn. We're talking about Ronald Raegan and Bill Clinton. We're talking about NAFTA, we're talking about Xi Jingping denying worker's rights to china because the US chamber of commerce in Beijing told him to. We're talking about Robber Barons like Rockefeller and Steve Jobs, and the autocrats who make their unethical factories profitable by crushing dissent in the labor class.

>>23540730
The economy blablablabla Nothing could be more detestable than credit, where we see it as a so-called science, which, from a few general objections applied by the common sense of all the positive aryan eras, has been able to extract by wanting to give it a dogmatic cohesion, the greatest and most dangerous practical nonsense; which, by seizing only too much of the confidence of a public sensitive to the influence of its sesquipedalia verba, rises to the fatal role of a true heresy by giving itself the air of dominating, of gluttoning, of accomodating in it's views religion, laws, mores. Basing the whole of human life and, likewise, the life of peoples on these words that have become cabalistic in it's schools, to produce and to consume, it calls honorable what is only natural and just: maneuvrial labour, and the word honor loses all the sublimity of its primitive meaning. It makes the private economy the highest of virtues, and by exalting the advances of prudence for the individual and the good deeds of peace for the state, devotion, public fidelity, courage and fearlessness almost become vices at the discretion of it's maximes. It is not a science, for the most miserable negation of the true needs of man, and of the most holy, forms its narrow base. It is a merit of a miller and a spinner displaced from his modest rank and proposed to the admiration of empires.
A society that puts an emphasis in individual freedom without being inherently capitalistic must be built.

>>23537187
>Trump and his ilk might be clowns but it is clear that they have tapped into a rage against the status quo that is very real, one that the liberals are seemingly to acknowledge.
this is an important point. Everyone is trying to pretend the factors shaping the current trend are primarily racial or literally just frothing crazytalk. But people are very upset at being defraduded after 08, lied to about all our foreign policy in the middle east and having their privacy infringed by a secret police who can monitor you without a warrant and imprison you for an indefinite amount of time without trial. And none of it's getting addressed. Trump has no intention to solve it, but he at least alludes to it.

>>23538084
Liberalism is a heterogeneous mix of plutocratic free market democracies, and despotic countries providing them with goods and cheap labor in exchange for monopoly money. They're not competing ideaologies, one literally includes and encapsulates the other in its global order.

>>23540739
hitler's critique of failed capitalism are prescient today. If people have to chose between fascism and continuing a plutocracy, they can, and historically have chosen the former.

>>23540739
You should cite your quotations btw.

>>23536199
Stiglitz also has a good book on it.

>>23539019
progressivism is failing to gain political clout despite broad consensus of the populace of its policies. Liberalism is failing in that it creates an unhealthy miserable society and can't address the problems.

>>23537187
Arguably conservatism as such is dead/dying, but rightism is still very much alive and well.

>>23540530
So what economic and political systems do we have then? What is it demanding global transparency and the commodification and pornographication of the entire Earth?

>>23540823
>Stiglitz was born in Gary, Indiana[18] into a Jewish[19] family.

>>23540830
They're the same. Progressivism is liberalism's gambit to survive in the globalized era in which the collective masses of the word still hold illiberal views. In liberal states and cosmopolitan countries progressive liberalism has widespread acceptance and institutional support, but it's a cultural and ideological phenomenon. Politically, when these progressive traits try to translate into policies, they find little to no success. It's why pride parades are mandated by the state but protests for Palestine are shut down.

>>23541389
>help! I can’t stop thinking about Jews

>>23541389
Having to check whether someone with a name like "Stiglitz" is jewish is like having to check whether someone named "Goldberg" is jewish.

>>23537187
To be fair, the Reagan/Bush/McCain/Romney strain of conservative liberalism did kind of die.

>>23542288
It's died among the public, and It's died among credible economists. But as a political force among aristocrats and Washington elite, it's plenty present. It's just been disgraced after the 2008 financial crisis, it survives by the injection of money by billionaires to prop it up. Dead in spirit but alive in power.

>>23540239
There are enough of highly motivated Gen Z Asians in the US to run things for a little longer at least. Their kids will probably be useless though.

>>23542288
It didn't die, they just lost a lot of power because of the tea party, and then the moderate white males with occupy wall street, the young white males with Trump, and the far-right young white males with the alt right. A lot of people said that conservatism was dead in 2008 but they keep being a useless thorn in the side of the modern right-wing, as nebulous as it is.

>>23542326
I should have refreshed the thread because this is a better post than mine.

>>23540596
Of course civilization isn't going anywhere, but living in Russia in the 90s really sucked for most people. (Same with living in, say, Libya or Syria in the 2010s.)

Of course, 90s Russia was probably a lot more exciting than 80s Russia. And maybe there's more to life than living in relative comfort and security.

>>23542288
>>23542346
Of course—hence "kind of." Meanwhile the mainstream Clinton/Obama dems have managed to survive, for which they should probably thank Trump.

>>23538616
Hope springs eternal

>>23542380
Trump has little to do with their survival. It has everything to do with PACs and the donor class. Democrats would've been completely replaced with the progressive caucus without these massive capital injections holding them back. That's why you have cases where Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says that her job is now easier than Nancy Pelosi out of the house leadership position than when conservative democrats were running things, because Nancy Pelosi fundamentally serves the same bipartisan lobby interests Mike Johnson does.

>>23537187
Liberalism pushed 'diversity' so hard despite non stop examples of homogeneous nations being the best, most peaceful, and trusting

People are tired of being told whites are the enemy when browns come into the country illegally and rape and kill with no punishments.

Then you have the parents of that blonde girl who was kidnapped raped and murdered who claimed mexicans were better than americans and donated to bring more shitskins over so our daughters could be raped and killed again

>>23537194
The downfall of America only happens with endless immigration of non white or non asians

>>23540720
>>23540568
Nobody quite understands how "over" it really is. No one gets that all Western politics is just civic infighting within the same ideals with no opposition towards the foundations we accept. Different sides argue about which way globalized liberalism should be oriented -- they either complain about Trump or wokeism or Muslims or white supremacy, but at the expense of what? Freedom, liberty, individual autonomy, etc. These are unquestioned, sacred values that are still the groundwork for everything that people are and believe today. Everyone is a liberal in their own way. The moment that any genuine opposition towards the liberal West is presented, all of these people suddenly become ardent conservatives who feign hysteria about China or sharia law or fascism or whatever.

The real crisis is a crisis of confidence, that liberalism is so successful that it ignores its own contradiction and fails to establish a plan for future dominance. That the youth under liberalism are irreverent, stupid, incompetent and have no sense of national unity to preserve their countries once the post-war generations die. That even when citizens democratically vote for popular candidates liberal institutions have a total meltdown about the impending rise of "fascism" even when people like Trump or Le Pen are a product of liberalism and basically just want the same exact system but with less immigrants. It's a stunning period of anxiety. Everyone is to blame for liberalism's decadence but themselves. Ayaan Hirsi Ali writes essays about how Marxism and Islam are banding together to destroy the West by flooding it with immigrants while she herself is a fucking immigrant charlatan who snuck her way into the West.

>>23542567
> Liberalism pushed 'diversity' so hard despite
We're not talking about your Fox News definition of "liberals" we're talking about Ayn Rand, Clinton, Pinochet, Friedman, Greenspan, Raegan and Margeret Thatcher. NeoLiberalism isn't related to Black people or transsexuals. It's about the government's relation to markets and the capital class, and I heterogeneous mix of consumption based democracies and production focused autocracies working together in a global hegemony in a plutocratic symbiosis for the benefit capital class. It assumes that more capital centralized in the hands of fewer people with fewer regulations Will allow trickle down economics and market fundamentalism to efficiently distribute workloads where they need to go. And search the libertarian principal that a small government is best in all instances except one: when the capital class needs help extracting wealth from someone else, either by forcibly creating markets in countries with mixed or public economies or crushing dissent like unions or regulating bodies. The increasing demands of the capital class typically forced the government to become much more oppressive To appease private interests than it otherwise would with other approaches. This forces it to rely on autocracies and government corruption to coerce labor force into accepting unlivable wages without the freedom to organize.

>>23542793
> The real crisis is a crisis of confidence
The real crisis is that it's a system that regularly creates dislocations due to credit, and isn't able to address nonlinear problems. It's corrosive to the solidarity of its people in all ways. Trust in all institutions, between races, families, and the sexes. It pits parent against child in mean spirited arguments. And forces people into an indentured servitude in the service of "freedom" which is in practice the legal opportunity, but not the economic ability, to make purchases for goods and services without state intervention. You have the freedom to eat macaroni or peaches. You have the freedom to own a house, but not the actual ability. All built on a system of deceptive credit, a legalized ponzi scheme, that commits 1 trillion dollars of illegal fraud every year to function. For reference if you consider all the blue-collar crime: the muggings, thefts, grand theft auto, Arson etc. that's only 15 billion a year. This is more than a crisis of confidence: this is a system that actually does not work for the people that work in it.

>>23540431
>you will likely experience one of the most violent and terrible periods in history, and instead of getting to watch it online from the comfort of your NEETcave you'll get to starve or get forced to work in a warlord's field or get brutally murdered yourself, along with millions and millions of people just like you.
Better that I suffer than my grandchildren.

>>23543030
Anon, you're not going to have grandchildren.

>>23542567
>People are tired of being told whites are the enemy when browns come into the country illegally and rape and kill with no punishments.
this is a complete and total strawman, do you honestly believe this crap?

>>23537187
Conservatism in Europe is almost a corpse. Identitarianism is absolutely killing it in the right

>>23538263
It's a meritocracy predicated on wealth (bourgeois) rather than on virtue (aristocracy)

>>23543120
Then better I suffer.

>>23543133
>strawman
Here's the President of the United States claiming that white men are to blame for Clarence Thomas allegedly assaulting Anita Hill

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/27/politics/joe-biden-white-mans-culture/index.html

>>23543133
Imagine saying this in 2024, when society is mask off anti white now

>>23537049
thats not what that book says tho

>>23543016
All that liberalism needs to work is for people to believe it works.

>>23542940
Not that anon, but neoliberalism is absolutely intertwined with wokism and leftist identity politics. A lot of woke culture is the product of an astroturfed ideology that was crafted to serve the interests of finance capital and globalization. A good example is stuff like greenwashing and pinkwashing. It's really hard to disentangle woke ideology from stuff like globalization, which is a core goal of modern neoliberalism. Also, organizations like the EU are literally used as textbook examples of neoliberalism, and the EU tends to support social justicey type stuff.

>>23543628
>neoliberalism is absolutely intertwined with wokism and leftist identity politics
It is not. You can make the case that it's been beneficial for neoliberalism as a tool to break social solidarity to further coercion by the private sector, but wokism is not a requirement to be a neoliberal in the least. Raegan isn't woke, neither is Thatcher, Rand or Friedman but these significant faces of historical neoliberalism. And to argue that neoliberalism has anything to do with leftism of all things implies you have misunderstood the term we're talking about.

>This is CLASSICAL liberalism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Think John Locke, and robber barons like Rockefeller
>this is SOCIAL liberalism, the thing you're thinking about, commonly propounded by progressives and "liberals" in common political discourse:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
You can think of Keynes and the new deal, basically the us and europe post great depression until the 1970's during the stagflation crisis. Think mixed economies, welfare services, FDR
>This is NEO-liberalism, which is what we're talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
This is all Raegan and thatcher deregulating businesses and Clinton agreeing with NAFTA after HW Bush realized we could put factories in China to access cheaper labor. When Clinton acquiesced to the Republican party's idea of deregulated global capitalism, Neoliberalism is said to have become "hegemonic" in the sense that no matter which party you voted or, you had a neoliberal party

It's not "social justicey type stuff" similar sounding word, totally different thing being referenced. Wokeness is not neoliberal. It can exist in a neoliberal order in a shallow form. But there's no chance of any real social justice in a neoliberal hegemony. All organizations, institutions and solidarity among people must be pushed down and dissolved in acid to further access markets, increase profit, and protect the capital class's property rights. Nothing else can be allowed to stand. Not church, not race, not unions, not justice, not government: profit, and whatever shallow marketing or song and dances or militarized police you need to get it.

>>23536199
It didn't fail, it put our civilisation exactly where the ones promoting this wanted it. It 'failed' us (normal citizens), but this was intentional

>>23539192
Late stage capitalism is a marxist myth. It should be replaced one day but the marxist worldview is just incorrect. They were saying the exact same thing in 1934.

>>23536199
Biden vs Trump is almost poetic in its indictment of American politics. On the one side, you have Biden, who is perhaps one of the most conservative presidents of all time solely because he is trying to preserve the status quo, to maintain the current order in spite of everything. However, he represents it perfectly: a tired, old man. He believes in the system and wants it to succeed, but struggles to say how it succeeds and what it can bring.
In contrast, you have Trump. He, too, is an old man, and likely a tired one at that. But he covers his weakness with bluster. He doesn't stand for anything, he doesn't believe in anything but himself. But his bluster makes him look strong. And he is an enemy of the current order, although he provides no alternative, no path forward. Where Biden is the conservative defender of the old order, Trump is the reactionary who would tear it down for his own benefit.

The real crime is that there is no alternative presented, no third position that presents a path forward which can either challenge and reform the system or overthrow it and build a new one.

>>23544581
Biden has completely flipped on a considerable number of his moral convictions and beliefs in recent decades. Its always whatever is most popular with his party. Doesn't really seem like he believes in anything.

>>23543133
Leftoids will lie about what they are doing until they are blue in the face. There should be no tolerance for leftism anymore.

>>23544599
>Doesn't really seem like he believes in anything.
In any policies, certainly. He follows the current politics, as any politician has to. I think he does believe in the current system, despite its myriad flaws.

>>23544613
This clinging on to the status quo is reflected in the ages of Biden, Feinstein McConnell, Ginsburg, Trump, Pelosi etc. Its also results in the extreme corruption and international bullying needed to maintain it
Because younger people were shaped by different circumstances theres no way they would maintain the status quo
It should collapse terribly

>>23544527
"Normal citizens" is just a dogwhistle for coalminers, farmers, menial labourers, fishermen and other zero-future joblets. To quote Pol Pot - to keep you is no benefit, to destroy you is no loss. The only failure of liberalism is the failing to give your class a peaceful euthanasia that wouldn't result in your death-throws fucking up modern life.

>>23544660
>this is what leftism does to your mind

>>23544660
To quote Pol Pot, let's kill all of the people wearing glasses on the basis that they're burgoise intellectuals. And you're dead, edgelord.

>>23544660
>zero future
You just offshored them, brainlet

>>23540740
This.

>>23544660
Kind of a funny post, because sentiment like this was the exact reason Pol Pot gave for wanting to kill his fellow glass wearing intellectuals. Considering Cambodia is now a stable Monarchy—I think he was correct.

>>23544633
>Because younger people were shaped by different circumstances theres no way they would maintain the status quo
The current reaction of anti-israel protests was immediate and complete crackdown. Now these protestors are soft, didn't expect to be hit like they should have, but they're not going to suddenly rediscover themselves and love Israel.

To 'rediscover oneself' like the baby boomers and later generations did, you need to be bribed heavily using money printing so greed takes over. There is no money left, they're openly telling the young they will be replaced. It's a brittle foundation that will violently implode like that shitty sub next to the titanic.

>>23544633
Younger people are basically hunkering down and waiting for things to fall apart at this point. Both parties are falling apart, kept together only by fear of the other.

>>23543910
>wokism is not a requirement to be a neoliberal in the least.
I didn't say they wokism is a requirement for neoliberalism. That would be a logical claim about the content of neoliberalism. Obviously there are conservative neoliberals like Thatcher and Reagan. This is not news to me or anyone familiar with these topics. My claim is not that wokeism is a logical requirement for neoliberalism, my claim is an empirical claim about contemporary neoliberalism - not neoliberalism in the 1980s - and that claim is that contemporary neoliberalism is intimately intertwined with wokism. Neoliberalism is not inherently woke, and I never said it is, but neoliberalism is intimately connected with contemporary wokism and the sort of pro-capitalist social justicey identity politics that are very popular with educated yuppies and wealthy elite urban types. Neoliberalism and wokism have both become integral facets of the worldview and ideology of high income, educated, urbanites, techbros, and the professional managerial class.

>It can exist in a neoliberal order in a shallow form. But there's no chance of any real social justice in a neoliberal hegemony.

Yes, that's exactly the point I'm making. You're talking to me like I'm some sort of right winger or something and you're talking to me like I don't know what these terms mean, which is ironic, because I'm guessing you're not familiar with the concepts of "greenwashing" or "pinkwashing", since they adress exactly the criticisms you seems to be identifying. Leftist scholars have been saying for years that wokeism and the SJW movement is a fundamentally neoliberal, pro-capitalist agenda and a shallow form of faux social justice being propped up by capitalism and the political establishment. E.g. wokism and vague appeals to "diversity" and "freedom of movement", "freedom of association", etc. are used to defend and promote globalization, which is a neoliberal pro-capitalist ideology. Have you not read any recent leftist scholarship from like the last 20 years? These critiques have become pretty common. Neoliberalism has both socially conservative and socially liberal variants. Wokeism and SJWism are sort of the socially liberal variants of neoliberalism. Its politics for the Professional Managerial Class.

>>23543910
They’re all the same. Classical liberalism hasn’t even been a thing for 200 years because it’s dumb and wrong. What you’re arguing is like trying to say Protestantism isn’t real Christianity. You might believe that as a hardcore catholic but it’s essentially Christianity to everyone else.

>>23537049
conservatism of what? There's no conservatism in republics because republic is the tabula raza from feudalism. It's republics which are supposed to break off from millennia old system. This is why americans seethe when they are told the historical fact that they have no history, no culture. America is just a country for the british bourgeois tax evaders to base society on GDP kek

It's pathetic that all americans have in their shitty life is the romanticisation of bourgeois democracy

>>23544751
>>23544759
>>23544764
>>23544807
>The redbrown seethes impotently at the material reality that has passed him by
Both you chuds and lefties are just a temporary expresion of the dying old world. We no longer need your farms, because the industrial greenhouse replaced them. We don't need your coal, nor your heckin' generational fishing family. Your kids will grow up liberals who work in thermo-engineering if they are too stupid to code or just won't be born due to natural economic genocide of your worthless rural shitholes because hey, you are the retards electing people that won't give your towns welfare gibs that would ensure a pleasant euthanasia or a transformation into a quaint Hobbiton for tourists. You will own a piece of a dying hinterland and you won't be happy.

>>23545080
You are the leftie tho, delusional elitist prick quoting his commie idol who would murder him on the spot. You're not the elite, you're just another retard on the internet.

>>23544660
Ah, but there's the rub. You declared war on strong white men. Pol Pot didn't declare war on strong Asian men. He went after the Acedemic class he perceived as in his way. Is it clicking for you yet? You can't declare war on strong men who have a rare color pattern everyone lusts after and win. You still have to put the bell on the cat, so to speak. You still have to convince others not to take a close look at the rare, beautiful colored studs and say, "These guys aren't so bad. Who the fuck wants to kill them off?"

You could probably wage a war on nerds. But you didn't declare war on white nerds. You declared war on white male jocks. Are you getting it yet? Are you seeing your glaring error?

>>23545100
There is no elite you dumbass. There are only those who find a meaningful and fulfilling life under the new economy and those who, sadly, can't fit in. There are also a lot of retards, mainly radical youths who are "into politics" who thoughtlessly spit out the status quo over aesthetic bullshit that doesn't affect them. A retail worker can be perfectly happy, just as much as a CEO or a middle manager. The "problems" are the neo-luddites that can't cope with the fact that their ways of life are no longer sustainable, be it unemployed fishermen, financially fucked landholders who can't compete with factory farming or rustbelt mechanics. The most noble goal now is to lay them to rest painlessly while also not letting them take the helm politically, as their half-assed attempts at salvation will only protract the pain period.

>>23537194
none of this is new

>>23545107
>unga bunga
You know that you can't and won't do shit. You'll always justify it by saying "its not the time" or "hey, maybe this [insert countries populist name here] will do it for me!", because ultimately you are still a liberal subject that buys the same treats as anyone else. All you will do is make yourself unhappy.

>>23537194
Entrypoint:
>I am sad and unfulfilled
Endpoint (after many, many years of no introspection)
>It will all be good when bad thing will happen, r-rigt?!

>>23545126
> he neo-luddites that can't cope with the fact that their ways of life are no longer sustainable, be it unemployed fishermen, financially fucked landholders who can't compete with factory farming or rustbelt mechanics.
Kek I am literally returning to ludditism as a means of liberating myself from libberalism and all you can do is seethe about it.
Why should I go to the supermarket if I have an own garden, know how to fish and hunt?
Ahh boogoooooo he's not working a wagecuvk jobbb! Le career! Women must do career too awhhfhhhh NOOOO you can't have your wife relax at home NOOOO PATRYARCHY OPPRESSIOB BUAHAHAHAHHAAWHHH-ACK!
Kys.

>>23545080
Again, you have just offshored it all and you will pay for it

>>23537194
What were you reading when America officially died?

>>23539010
>Neoliberalism and neoconservatism as commonly used today are just buzzwords ... They are both functionally liberal doctrines.
Yeah, the neoconservatives are basically liberal internationalists who see (or saw) military adventurism towards illiberal states as bound up in democracy promotion. The ideology of spreading a Western-style political system was integral to neoconservatism which distinguishes them from Nixon or Kissinger who saw maintaining a classical realist balance of power as important. It makes sense that neoconservatism would grow a lot after the Cold War, while that's just not suitable for a world system of multiple competing powers.

>>23542793
>Everyone is to blame for liberalism's decadence but themselves. Ayaan Hirsi Ali writes essays about how Marxism and Islam are banding together to destroy the West by flooding it with immigrants while she herself is a fucking immigrant charlatan who snuck her way into the West.
Hirsi Ali can make some good points, and her targets can be toxic and deserving of criticism, but her recent essay ended up getting into a paranoid trope that you might call the Grand Unified Theory of Subversion which simplifies what are pretty complex phenomena.

>>23544581
>In contrast, you have Trump ... And he is an enemy of the current order, although he provides no alternative, no path forward.
Well it's interesting if you watch Steve Bannon and listen to what he believes. He presents as a revolutionary -- a Leninist! He doesn't like free trade, supports new industrial policies, taking on globalists and cutting immigration and all of this America First stuff. But he praises John Fetterman now because he's pro-Israel (and also doesn't like the woke and wants to secure the border). Bannon is mega pro-Israel (as is Trump). But he also wants to cut a deal with Putin while also being super-hawks about China. His position is explicitly to eliminate the Communist Party of China.

>>23544907
>E.g. wokism and vague appeals to "diversity" and "freedom of movement", "freedom of association", etc. are used to defend and promote globalization, which is a neoliberal pro-capitalist ideology.
Honestly I've been more confused than ever lately. To tie this back to Israel-Palestine stuff, it's fascinating to me to see how "wokeism" is used by both sides of the conflict. Ayaan Hirsi Ali can talk about how SJW-ism is teaming up with Hamas (and... it is...) but Israel does the same thing, and it's fascinating how they do it. Israel definitely targets messages to conservatives, but you'll see gentile supporters like Douglas Murray who presents support for Israel as being part of a defense of Enlightenment values which includes the rights of gay people compared to illiberal, intolerant Islam. If you're gay, you're a minority, and the Israelis are kind of like the gays of the Middle East because they're a minority within this larger Arab region, so obviously, they have to protect themselves. That's how this argument goes.

To illustrations. There's an Israeli propaganda show that recently had on a gay Yemeni who moved to Sweden after getting asylum there and is like "these protesters who are cheering on the Houthis are stupid, and trust me, they are fascists who will drag you out in public and shoot you in the back of the head in front of a bunch of frothing spectators if you're gay."
https://youtu.be/Kid2jf9k5HU

But Palestinian and Arab artists (often many of them who I think live in the West) will also adopt a "social justice" ethos to their cause. They pick up tropes that are obviously descended from Black Lives Matter. If you watch this video below, it's very similar to a summer 2020 video with a bunch of rappers singing "hands up, don't shoot." Freedom of movement! Palestinians are literally restricted from traveling around the occupied territories. Palestinians become like George Floyd, and the Israelis are the Minneapolis cops. It's like everyone is trying to mimic these trends and movements, and I don't think it's purely cynical, that gay Yemeni guy is probably terrified of the Houthis, so I find all of this interesting as a social phenomenon.
https://youtu.be/ug0L5S2Qzwg

>>23545362
Douglas Murray and Dave Rubin presenting themselves as conservative tells you that conservativism is about to die hard

>>23545381
It's already dead. The only reason people vote Republican is Trump.

>>23545442
There are still conservative labeled parties in the first world

>>23545451
And they're somehow less conservative than the American Democratic party. The closest thing to conservative parties in Europe are the AfD, Reform, National Rally, and so on, but they're generally called nationalist rather than conservative.

>>23545126
nta, but your stupidity will bring you a lot of suffering in the not so distant future.

>>23545459
I haven't been paying attention to Le Pen for awhile, but I assume Meloni is now the model for right-wing parties in Europe who are serious about getting into power. It's interesting because they're not Euroskeptics anymore, rather instead it's a rightist spin on pan-Europeanism and "the West is the best" stuff. Rishi Sunak is going to lose hard but I saw a video his campaign put out to a slowed-down Little Dark Age edit; i.e. edgy rightist memes moving from the fringe to the center and turning into a N A TO W A V E thing.
https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1807154019711824279/video/1

>>23545501
>Rishi Sunak is going to lose hard but I saw a video his campaign put out to a slowed-down Little Dark Age edit; i.e. edgy rightist memes moving from the fringe to the center and turning into a N A TO W A V E thing.
Holy fucking CRINGE
These parties are corpses being held up by dying boomers

The right wing are sticking with the eu because of international pressure. Theres no point though.

>>23545459
I don't think that this is correct. They are about as socially liberal as each other
>the closest thing to conservative parties is the nationalist parties
No I am talking about the actual conservative labeled parties like the tories or the french republicans. They are useless.

>>23545551
>I don't think that this is correct. They are about as socially liberal as each other
At that point, we're splitting hairs. I was simply saying that European conservative parties are not particularly conservative at all, particularly since people like Dave Rubin are very clearly American "conservatives" (aka Republicans).

>>23545568
Yes

>>23545362
What is so complicated about it? Anons answered it in this thread a hundred posts ago, this book answers it. All of these people are just different camps of liberals. It's all just different variations of defending the superiority of Western civilization and liberal values, whether it's on the left or right. Few people dissent from the entire order, and if they do then they're immediately denounced as radicals. You need to march in pride parades because the LGBT is a necessary aspect of liberal imperialism. You can't march for Palestine because Israel is a necessary aspect of liberal imperialism. There's a clear reason for why the system promotes some things and not others.

>>23545575
Yeah and the reason is that half of americas billionaires are jews
They call Hungary a semi democracy for voting for Orban, they ousted Corbyn and fired mehdi hasan and trevor noah for criticising israel and they call a far right genocidal government our democratic ally

>>23544907
Well it's not my intention to insult you, if it sounds like i have.
> my claim is an empirical claim
If it was an empirical claim, then you would provide evidence in the form of an experiment. You could be right but this statement is not an empirical one unless you provide evidence: that's what empiricism is.
> contemporary neoliberalism is intimately intertwined with wokism
Here is the original claim you made, and it sounds as though the phrase "intimately intertwined" means something drastically different to me than it does to you. As I see it: wokism is shallowly applied as a justification for enforcement and a tool to corrode solidarity among the lower and middle class. It is a tool and a fad, that is going out of date. An intimate intertwining to me sounds as though they are compliments to each other, symbiotic and essential to eachother's function or prevalent among the leadership. But wokism is not central to the leadership of corporations. It's central to the marketing of a very small percentage of corporations. Wokism is not relevant to the leadership of FedEx or JP Morgan. Nancy Pelosi isn't really woke. I think really what wokism is, is San Francisco spreading its own cultural expectations among the entire Internet, because that city has essentially monopolized it. Twitter, Amazon, Reddit, Facebook, etc. We're all woke because they were based out of a single location. But the broad neoliberal consensus is not woke. NeoLiberalism exists in the United States, and it exists in the monarchy of Saudi Arabia. Europe promotes mixed economies, but they're not woke. They have better conditions for labor, but they don't hate men, Women still wear dresses, and everyone's a racist.
> Yes, that's exactly the point I'm making.
Perhaps, it just didn't come across to me that way.

>>23545575
This. A movement should be made that is neither right wing capitalist nor left wing liberal, nor communist, nor fascist, nor anyhow, blatantly spoken, an elaborate cope. Something like the movement of independance in the English colonies during the 18th Century. A bunch of men settled in the country, armed with the material and intellectual means to create an independant republic, be it within Europe or in the Americas. Some sort of secession from the old states, founded on an entirely new constitution that is neither capitalistic, nor fascist, nor communist, nor neoliberal. Cut ties and relations with the liberal regimes, economic isolation. A political center not where ideas are implemented but where ideas are invented. What could the liberal regimes do about it, say if it actually succeeds? Attack us? We'll fight back. What right would they have to attack us in the first place? The current liberal regimes do not even work in the interests of the population anymore. I don't even know what the fuck they are at this point anymore. I look at most Western countries and see a feeble and crackable governmental building with a broken roof.

>>23545969
>It is a tool and a fad, that is going out of date.
Things like the LGBT are not going to disappear. Sexual and gender fluidity is here to stay. It isn’t a fad. The way it’s marketed might tone down depending on how things go for western countries but woke tendencies are intrinsic aspects of liberal and capitalist societies hence why it has institutional endorsement. This stuff is unambiguously official government policy

It really amazes me how libtards are not able to refute any criticisms of liberalism and just insist that everything bad is a part of it

>>23546185
> Things like the LGBT are not going to disappear
Faggots and troons can't reproduce, I give the whole movement a residual duration of 50 years.

>>23546192
Its not a libtard belief it's just true. How do you not see that now that it is embedded in and enforced by the government and corporations?

>>23546215
You really think that classical liberals would support globohomo and current state of the world?

>>23546210
They are a product of the system (they reproduce by corrupting your kids). The system is still here.

>>23546185
>Things like the LGBT are not going to disappear
They will when times get hard enough

>>23546216
No but it evolved into this naturally so it is too flawed
Some of its assumptions are wrong

>>23543149
Didn't they just win elections in France

>>23546218
Faggots exist in any given society, but they behave the more normal and heteronormative the more the society they live in oppresses gay people. Not only that, they actually reproduce and become fathers in societies that oppress gay people. It is in societies that tolerate homosexuality that they devolve to full-blown degeneracy, stop reproducing, and everyone around starts hating them. The movement will die in a few decades max, it is already maxxing out fully in unpopularity. It's just the liberal corporations that pretend they are popular to create specified market products targeted at gays, troons etc. The more the diversity, the greater the number of potential, individual-specific market products.

>>23546218
Also the endless immigration is nothing but the market for top-end consumers growth, moving people from producing-sector economies to service economies so as to increase the number of 'prole aristocrats'who can afford the super-expensive products made for top-end consumers, automatically leading to economic growth.

>>23540568
Because there is nothing worth living for anymore and people want change

>>23542940
No.

>>23541278
Debt slavery and usury

>>23540431
Once a society is this far into decline there is no way to reform it

>>23540431
Once a society is this far into decline there is no way to reform it

>>23546315
I call for a secessionist movement preferably in the German state of Niedersachsen.

>>23546318
Hahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhajajahahajjajajahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaaaaaaaaaa!

>>23540431
Counterpoint: A lot of leftists need to be brutally killed for what they've done, by any means necessary.

>>23546246
You dont know that
The system doesnt seem to be going away soon

>>23546332
Be careful about threatening people

>>23546335
> The system doesnt seem to be going away soon
You are correct, it's not going away anytime soon. This is why a secession must be built, strategically located in the German state of Niedersachsen.

>>23546346
It will be invaded by liberals

>>23546146
>I don't even know what the fuck they are at this point anymore.
Corrupt oligarchies

>>23546329
Prove me wrong
Name a declining civilisation that reformed itself successfully

>>23546335
You are delusional

>>23546351
They might bomb it from above, wich is why sea access is indispensable for the geographical location of the secession. The biggest hurdle will be convincing the locals of the location. Not that there isn't an efficient solution for this problem (wait for imminent economic crisis, takedown local government of Niedersachsen, call secession, close border).
>>23546356
Worse, pure degeneracy.

>>23546262
Endless migration just prevents rising wages and keeps house prices high

>>23546296
A modern leftist is much more ideologically aligned with a big tech CEO than a working class person

>>23546367
Endless migration increases the number of top-tier wagecucks, increasing the potential market for top-end products, increasing the profits of top-end consumer good corporations.

>>23546375
They keep importing dumb people who are a net drain instead of competent ones

>>23546362
>Name a declining civilisation that reformed itself successfully

China went through generalized decline and then suffered the Great Humiliation, but look at them now. Poised to push the white man's shit in.

>>23546242
No, conservatives did not. The right did. Macron's neoliberal conservative party just got hollowed out by a Euro nationalist one.

>>23536199
something deeply disturbing to me related to all of this is that the US is running itself fine overall. Technically, our material conditions are better than ever, home ownership rates for gen z are on track with boomers, the car market and inflation are stabilizing, and wage growth has been massive in the lower classes.

Things are great, people are bored and they want to fight. We have never been more free to do what we want than we are right now in America, but everyone is squandering that freedom with excess and soulless art so now we turn to destroying the system that has given us this prosperity? Not a good idea.

>>23546296
>twitter
Go back to /pol/

>>23540431
Do you want to seize the assets and properties based on racial discrimination laws? Yes or no. Your answer determines whether I deem you a glowie or not.

>>23546382
Why are you lying?
>home ownership rates for gen z are on track with boomers
Lmao

>>23546340
Or what?

>>23546377
It doesn't matter, it is enough to enforce diversity quotes upon corporations, them hiring immigrants and minorities, them earning high wages (even if they don't inherently increase the profits of the corporation) and affording top-end consumer goods as a result.
If you don't see how this increases the profits of corporations, you are just not putting cause and facts into the grand scheme of things.

>>23546385
>*xitter
No
Lol

>>23546382
The country is objectively much worse off compared to 20 or even 10 years ago

>>23546392
They mostly just seem to be harming corporations because they are incapable of performing any of the jobs that they're shoehorned into.

>>23546392
Hiring based on diversity instead of competence makes things objectively worse
Just look at falling standards in school

>>23546394
Communists are just Spiteful mutants

>>23546397
Yeah, but that doesn't matter. It's not about creating efficient workers, the goal is to increase the potential target consumers for top-end consumer goods, achieved through the means of diversity quotes (pushing women into careers even though they are more incapable that the average nigger male was done for obviously the same reason).

>>23546394
And fascism is just killing unattractive people

>>23546382
>Government bots and /pol/ are trying to ruin a decent thread again

>>23546296
And rightism is just "lefties bad"

>>23546404
Of course it makes things worse, it's not about improving society or the state of blacks, it's about increasing the target potential for top-end consumer goods.
If you have 1% of the population earning top-wages, and you increase that number to 2%, the potential market for top-end consumer goods doubles.

>>23546397
>>23546392
These kind of problems only began after the last big recession around 2009-2012. It didn't really exist before then.

>>23546415
>2009-2012
2007-2009*
Great Recession*

>>23546413
Well we see Poor people getting poorer and the rich getting richer so it didn't work

>>23546394
I don't know how you can stand being the worst part in every conversation you're a part of. There is an intellectually stimulating conversation happening right now and you're trying to twitter graffiti over it instead of contribute something worthwhile.

>>23546410
>Decent thread
Every thread about Liberalism is just Liberalism Le bad because of gays or whatever and how America is literally going to collapse in two more weeks

>>23546422
Do you enjoy the taste of boots you keep licking?

>>23546419
There's nothing to be argued here. The more people immigrate to Europe, the more the number of people earning first-world incomes and affording first-world consumer products, improving the profits of corporations. There is no flaw in this line of reasoning. As long as stable government and a stable economy are ensured, nothing will halt economic growth through mass immigration.

>>23546424
As opposed to sucking XI and how BRICS is going totally lead to some evil multipolar world order

>>23546397
1 No they aren't, 2 even if they had been ruining these companies, the fact that you're considerate of this first and foremost misses the entire point of this thread.

>>23546428
>evil
*ebin

>>23546426
>As long as stable government and a stable economy are ensured
And who is gonna do all the skilled labor?
Mass migration also destroys high trust societies

>>23538196
Can confirm. My boyfriend and I had a really rough first couple of years for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest is putting our careers before our relationship and losing the thread of things. I’m grateful we’re still together and hoping marriage is not too far off now

>>23546428
>>23546434
Fraudian slip

>>23546435
The skilled labour will be ensured by public schooling.
And what is the worth of high trust societies anyways? If they can be cannibalized for the profits of corporations they have totally fulfilled their function.

>>23546428
Yeah right, liberal world order is totally gonna last forever because it just will okay

>>23546422
It was going pretty well until /pol/ and bots got here. Now a bunch of mouth breathers with a collective room temperature IQ are posting fucking Twitter screenshots about how they hate libtards instead of discussing the political trajectory of the last 50 years. Why do people who pretend not to care need to walk into this conversation?

>>23546442
>The skilled labour will be ensured by public schooling
Hahaha ha you're naive
How do you expect people with IQ under 90 to operate complex machines

>>23546373
Correct

>>23546446
>Muh America and Western Europe will magically cease to be and lose all political power and projection

>>23537199
>Liberalism is no doubt shit but you're a seething incel hating on
And what ideology caused incels?

>>23546422
It really is astonishing how every discussion about liberalism and the West these days is all about how they’re going to collapse and how the apocalypse is near. I’ve realized that nobody knows what the fuck they’re talking about, we just think they do because everyone today has free speech to say what they want and we think all their opinions are equally valid.

>>23546388
Not true

>>23546453
We are seeing changing world order
https://youtu.be/xguam0TKMw8?si=USsge-nW6p10ZSk-

>>23546382
Not true at all
You sound like a shill

>>23546422
Its bad because people are unhappy, freak

>>23546457
>It really is astonishing how every discussion about liberalism and the West these days is all about how they’re going to collapse and how the apocalypse is near. I’ve realized that nobody knows what the fuck they’re talking about
Do you have an argument?

>>23546449
That's the keypoint, we drain the brain from the developing economies, bringing in skilled Hindus and Chinese who can perform at top-tier jobs, increasing the market for top-tier consumers. Add to that a huge bunch of 90-IQ unskilled and low-skilled workers moving to the West and, by their mere presence, earning higher wages and affording more goods than they would in their home countries, increasing the potential market and thus the potential profits of corporations. All that in a loop, leading to unlimited growth for at least five more years.

>>23545057
>muh americans

>>23546422
>>23546457
Literally no one except for the boomers who got theirs has faith in the current system
What makes you think it's gonna last?

>It really is astonishing how every discussion about liberalism and the West these days is all about how they’re going to collapse and how the apocalypse is near
We have every sign of a declining empire but keep pretending everything is fine

>>23546411
Leftytroons are bad.

>>23546397
Maybe but it doesnt matter. Youre a slave

>>23546428
>multipolar world
So?
Again, you sound exactly like a worthless lying politician

>>23546453
>magically
All empires fall
Its not magic

>>23546469
The birth rates keep falling world wide so this endless growth is not sustainable

>>23546456
Feminism

>>23546465
>because people are unhappy
You mean fringe retards on this site
Literally everyone in this thread is either some from reactionary or progressive that simply wishes to see their meme ideology gain power out of some strange sense idealistic fulfilment

>>23546468
Do you? Please give me a reasonable scenario in which the most powerful and safe countries on the face of the earth will soon devolve into anarchy, civil war, chaos and violence. Please tell me how the average person's life in the United States will be disrupted with state failure, poverty, starvation, etc. It's not fucking happening. You already won the war in 1991, it's already fucking over. Liberalism won and it's such miserable ideology that produces such pathetic people that you can't even realize that you won, you would sooner renounce victory and create new problems than have confidence in your peace and superiority. You point your fingers at everything but yourselves because liberalism has no sense of time or place, it doesn't plan for the future, it just creates a population of fat fucking autistic retards and calls it the pinnacle of humanity and then fails to understand why this population could become so disgruntled with their own security.

>>23546486
>fringe retards on this site
Happiness has been plummeting across the world because people have nothing to live for
Liberalism destroyed religion and communities

>>23546486
Marxists control every institution in America, and they're still miserable as their ideology collapses everything around them.

>>23546486
Most people say that america is on the wrong track and they do not have faith in the government
This pessimism started in the 70s and is still getting worse

>>23546490
You really think these countries will keep being safe with mass migration and with white people becoming a minority?

>>23546478
Children are too expensive anyways, childless people can spend more on themselves and on high-tier products, increasing the profits of corporations. There will always be retards reproducing, the rest will be covered by immigrants. Who doesn't want to love in a rich country?

>>23546486
Also average happiness scores in the US have been declining for the last two decades. On the other hand it has been rising in China.

>>23546490
>it's le end of history because I say so
Go away Fukuyama your writing is a joke

>>23546492
>marxists
OK this thread is dead. Everyone worth talking to has been drowned out by faggots like yourself posting one sentence Twitter screen caps.

>>23546486
Every single aspect of the federal government does the exact opposite of what it was designed to do, and none of is some personal failing of random citizens who have no access to them.
Like what is even your argument here, if I go get high then the government will finally start deporting illegals?

>>23546507
I accept your consneedsion.

>>23546497
>Children are too expensive anyways
Bullshit
Poor stupid people can have lots of children while city people can't

>>23546490
Maybe, just maybe the problem is not liberalism but the people in power who actively despise their own citizens and want to replace them

>>23546516
that's leftism

>>23546514
Exactly, children are too expensive, that's why rich people can't afford them.

>>23546507
You have been constantly proven wrong but you keep ignoring the evidence and covering your ears

>>23546497
All you have to do is buy them food

>>23546507
Good bye and good riddance

>>23546516
That is liberalism then since it turned into that everywhere

>>23546530
Judaism*

>>23546497
That's just an excuse, the main thing that affects birth rates is women's education

>>23546524
That doesn't create enough profits for the corporations though. Fancy clothes, family vacation trips, Nintendo wii, children's TV... all those things cost money and people with children SHOULD be able to afford them, funded by tax money if necessary

>>23546533
Liberalism tolerates jews thoughever

>>23546539
Women working top-end jobs, and earning top-end wages as a result brings more profits to corporations than women reproducing people that can be filled through immigration anyways

>>23546540
Profits don't matter when government can print endless money
The whole economic system is fake and built on lies and speculation

>>23546546
Most women just do useless bullshit jobs like HR and are worse to work with, they make companies worse

>>23546549
That is incorrect, corporational profit is the only thing that matters.

>>23546549
Profit is a signal that a company is valuable and worth investing in. This is important for countries to outcompete other countries and to stay dominant.

>>23546553
They might make companies socially worse, but that doesn't matter for the economy. What matters for the economy is the total number of top-end consumers and that total number is increased when women and minorities are forcefully included in the work environment.

>>23546557
>>23546560
You have companies losing lots of money because of the advertising or other bad decisions like Disney
They are too big to fail so they don't care, they think they will just get bailed out

>>23546549
We don't print money, we make credit which is much worse.

>>23546565
Disney isnt losing money. They are profitable

>>23546560
So they only care about quantity and not quality, no wonder everyone is unhappy when they are just supposed to be a cog in the machine
What do they even get from all those profits?

>>23546565
Disney isn't losing money on its advertising budget. It's losing money because of it streaming services. Before you make a claim about this companies earnings why don't you go listen to their earnings call? Check their public tax records. It's only a Google search away

>>23546580
OK I guess that was not a good example

>>23546574
Nothing, you will enjoy being a modern day serf

The truth is that no one knows what's coming next, in the next few years will be a painful transition but things will be better eventually as long as there is not a nuclear war.

>>23546573
lol

>>23546583
A better example would be now Iowan munitions plants, Citi, Blackrock and anyone on this list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemically_important_financial_institution

>>23546497
Demographics are destiny
If you import third world you will become third world

>>23546490
>Please tell me how the average person's life in the United States will be disrupted with state failure, poverty, starvation, etc. It's not fucking happening.
Currency failure caused by failure to contain debt and over-commitment to international wars which no longer grow US industry as said industry finishes getting transferred out of the country.
This is assuming the political crises don't blow up, the international crises don't blow up, and that the cultural situation does not further deteriorate.

Anyway I grow my own food in my backyard and live in the hills so I'm fine, just calling it as it is

>Liberalism won and it's such miserable ideology that produces such pathetic people that you can't even realize that you won, you would sooner renounce victory and create new problems than have confidence in your peace and superiority
Oh, you are one of those Eastern Europeans that bet their entire existence on the US being powerful forever--ignored.

The only thing that would save America and the American-led world order is a decidedly illiberal solution: someone needs to seize absolute power. The United States needs an Augustus. Someone who can take the totality of all real power into their hands and wield it capably in a mission of reform and reorganization that is robust enough to continue for several more decades or centuries.

It looks like the USA is speedrunning the troubles that plagued the Late Roman Republic, so if we have an Augustus waiting in the wings he'll get his chance to seize power. The question is, do we have one?

>>23546600
>muh stocks
Fake and gay + its not profit

>>23546614
>troubles
you haven't seen anything mate

>>23546613
retarded leftoid disco elysium player still claiming that capitalism will collapse in 2 more weeks as you've all been saying since 1848, opinion ignored

>>23546631
Capitalism isn't collapsing, the dollar is.

>>23546599
things will get better when leftists start getting executed in the streets, it's only a matter of how much worse things are going to get before that happens

>>23546490
There probably won't be a total collapse but there will be a regime change through war or Balkanization

>>23546643
Take a look at the average zoomer and tell me if you think this demographic is remotely capable of fighting in a war

>>23546631
>retarded leftoid disco elysium player still claiming that capitalism will collapse
I'm a Mixed Medievalist Monarchist, also China's Mixed Capitalism system will continue onward--whatever the fuck the US' system truly is, no, I don't believe it is sustainable.

Why? Because you still have not refuted my point about debt, nor inflation. On top of that, there is how American Corporations are all run like Ponzi schemes that are being overtaken by incompetent Indians who tell them what they want to hear.

>>23546651
>able to operate three temu brand suicide drones simultaneously, directly on your position
nothing personal boomer

>>23546651
Imagine that kid controllint drones like toys

I love how people will mock Peter Zeihan for claiming that China is going to collapse in two more weeks but then will turnaround and say the same things about America

SIEG HEIL BROTHERS
Europa WILL live FREE forever

>>23546662
>Peter Zeihan for claiming that China is going to collapse in two more weeks but then will turnaround and say the same things about America
Peter Zeihan and other Americans were just projecting their own American decline anxieties at China the entire time

>>23546662
>will
It's already collapsing, and there does not seem to exist any practical way to avoid it, or even the basic political will to prevent it.

>>23546662
China is more likely to turn their collapse around because they don't care about democracy

>>23546662
The whole world is collapsing and there is nowhere to go

>>23546670
Because the collapse is intentional
They hope they can establish a new order

>>23546631
Nobody said that

>>23546662
Ironically enough this book doesn't suggest that the West or liberal societies are headed towards a total collapse at all, it just says that these societies are devolving into something that hardly resembles the foundations of liberalism because liberalism itself was paradoxical from the start. The most likely and correct conclusion is that the West and liberalism will continue to be the strongest players in the world but culturally and politically will be profoundly decadent, exhausted and unwilling to create a better future. That's basically where we're at right now, but people in the West are too stupid and privileged to realize how much better they have it than the 3rd world which is on track to never developing at all.

>>23546662
Why cant they?

>>23546681
>Because the collapse is intentional
This will be the final American cope, the idea that they stumbled into this through their own ideological flaws and it was not pre-planned is too much for them

>>23546668
No he meant china will collapse because americans will make it collapse

>>23546697
>are too stupid and privileged to realize how much better they have it than the 3rd world which is on track to never developing at all.
You backed the wrong Empire, West Slav, just accept it now

>>23546671
>China is more likely to turn their collapse around because they don't care about democracy
I would say it's a combination of that, and the fact that Chinese politicians still want the Chinese people to exist.
Every person in the federal government seems to actively want America destroyed and it's people ethnically replaced by clinically retarded third world serial rapists.

>>23546708
Flipping the tables in some nihilistic nuclear exchange is pretty much the 'best' case scenario for Americans, and would damn their culture for the rest of Human history

>>23546697
>The most likely and correct conclusion is that the West and liberalism will continue to be the strongest players in the world
They are already being overtaken by China and Russia
And I assume by the west you meat America because Europe keeps destroying itself and has no future, countries like Germany keeps de-industrualising because they were dependent on Russian resources

>>23546726
>thinking that russia will ever become more dominant than the west
what an utterly delusional thread, go out and experience the real world you fucking doomer losers

>>23540322
> Capitalism and liberalism are twin serpents always intwined, same with democracy and liberalism. They could exist independently but they typically don’t.
“Democracy” is generally a farce. Maybe in some very small homogenous state like Athens it could exist (but even in that historical case, they put significant restrictions on who actual “citizens” were who could participate and vote in the polis, such as being male, adult, free and not enslaved, etc.).

As many like to note as a “gotcha!”, even America — often held up in propaganda and public messaging as some “exemplar of democracy” — is not technically a democracy but a republic; in other words, people (more or less democratically, supposedly) vote for the leaders to represent them, the rulers who will do the actual governing, instead of it being an actual direct democracy where each and every significant major policy change is voted on directly by the citizens themselves. And the technical expansion of this term is that it’s really a “democratic republic”, because the voters (supposedly) can more or less democratically vote on who the leaders of the republic will be, but even this is restricted and modified in terms of:

1.) who’s actually allowed to vote (age, not being a felon, being a citizen)
2.) the monied/oligarchic/plutocratic interests who inevitably fund, support these candidates and influence the policies of whoever can be elected and rise to power in the U.S., and (closely related)
3.) the fact that in practice it’s reduced to simply two (2) opposing major parties (in the U.S., the Democrat and Republican Parties), both of whom can also easily be manipulated by these monied interests; and also basically gives the populace no power to vote for something “gray”/“mixed” on what these parties inevitably often turn into black-and-white debates on social issues. I.e., if you support both women’s right to abortion AND heavily restricting illegal immigration into the U.S. at the Southern border, you’re forced to compromise or pick a party that sacrifices one over the other

Not to mention a natural corollary of point 2, that this can also easily lead to certain things being pushed REGARDLESS of whoever you “democratically vote for”, because the monied and powerful interests want it to be pushed regardless of what party gets in power and hence manipulate and fund both (e.g. AIPAC funding and Zionist support almost regardless of which political party is in power).

One intelligent and astute political scientist and scholar, Sheldon Wolin, put it that the system of government and economics in the United States particularly has been incredibly amenable to the rise of “inverted totalitarianism” (and parallels could certainly be made into this to other major Western and first-world states regarded as part of the “liberal modern West” and as heralds of the “international rules-based order”).

>>23546728
How is Europe gonna dominate anything when they are just America's dog on a leash with no sovereignty

>>23546721
They made the ussr collapse through hollywood and a new arms race

>>23546728
>>23546741
Honestly the biggest issue in both cases is the demographic replacement, both will be irrelevant if they just get replaced by brownoids, you can't have a functional society when brownoids reach a critical mass

>>23546747
You are spiritually and psychologically worse than them. You are dysgenic low class scum.

>>23546747
This is the main problem that both Deneen and Fukuyama are afraid to address, will Europeans awaken or is it too late?

>>23546750
Projection lol

>>23546750
Nice non argument, is that all you can say?

>>23546750
I objectively am not, as that's an impossibly low bar to limbo under.

>>23546747
>>23546750
The rest of the world is more anti liberal than the west
Once white people are gone liberalism will be also gone

>>23546754
>>23546758
>>23546769
List your top 3 aspirations in life, top 10 books, and top 10 films..you can also add other lists too if you feel like it.

You Michael Bay watching, Tom Clancy reading dysgenic low class scum cannot possibly compare to sophisticated aristocrats like me.

>>23546788
No.
Also, I don't watch TV.

>>23546733
In many major, important ways, it is entirely different from classic forms of totalitarianism we often bring up like Nazism, Soviet Russian communism, Chinese communism, or Mussolinian fascism; in other significant ways, it can also sometimes ape or mirror the policies, methodologies, techniques and worldviews of these totalitarian systems. In the case of inverted totalitarianism, however, it’s simply often in the pursuit of what monied interests want done, and draped in a veneer of liberal rhetoric, “protecting and promoting human rights”, etc., besides being put in a REACTIONARY way, like fighting threats deemed “illiberal” such as the Soviets and communists, the Islamic terrorists, White supremacists and domestic terrorists, foreign and domestically-backed “misinformation/disinformation/malinformation” etc., as opposed to something so explicit like, “We have to preserve and further develop the Aryan master race with eugenics”, “The proletariat must seize the means of production and institute a communist utopia of a classless stateless society”, etc.

Another person I highly respect put it like this: in the 20th century, the Western “elites” realized that overt totalitarianism (famous examples like the Third Reich, Marxist-Leninism, Maoism, fascism, etc.) didn’t work so well, as it fomented pushback by its own populace and sometimes even by other states besides them; covert totalitarianism seems to work even better. And sophisticated research into social conditioning and brainwashing of the populace and even other populaces around the world (sometimes euphemistically put as “public relations”, like by one of its seminal founders, Edward Bernays) can especially help in this.

You can see how the “War on Terror”, painted as a particularly Bush-Neocon thing, plus the controversial police-state policies it pushed (like the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay) more or less continued under Obama (Dem.), also to an extent under Trump who painted himself as an “outsider.” And as intelligent observers noted from the start, this type of crap, from the start, had the risk of being turned eventually against America’s own citizens and those of the Western world generally coming up the purview of the Five-Eyes allies, if it wasn’t already planned that way from the start.

Think of it like Popper’s paradox of tolerance increasingly being pushed and promoted by Western mainstream culture, media, politicians and academia, but also with them increasingly broadening the bounds of what it means to be “intolerant” and narrowing the limits of what it is to be “tolerant” (socially acceptable, enlightened, “liberal”). But the conditioning is both nigh-omnipresent enough and sophisticated enough that people don’t realize they themselves are sleepwalking towards tyranny while in the quest to “destroy and fight tyranny, bigotry, intolerance and terrorism before it even has the chance to manifest itself.”

>>23546788
Films and books dont matter bro

>>23546792
>>23546795
You live a shallow negro like existence. Funny how you constantly scream Shitskin when you're even worse.

Artistic sensibilities reflect level of contemplative depth and metacognitive awareness.

You are puppets with the illusion of qualia animated by malignant forces.

The fact is, you have garbage taste and effectively you have no soul, Buddhanature, or etc. either. Go back to eating and consuming goyslop.

>>23546805
>Negro like
Negroes love film
Its entertainment
It doesnt really matter in the end
There arent any films in nature

>>23546811
Then don't list film. Stick to listing books then and top 3 aspirations. I need measurable metrics to determine if you're a moron or not.

>>23546513
insightful. everyone says that housing in the united states is unaffordable, but that's not quite true, this is actually a lot of cheap housing available, there is just one problem with it...

>>23546805
If you actually thought I was a negroid, you would be sucking my dick like the marxist cuckold that you are.

>>23542940
>>23546296
This short comment-chain is such a perfect encapsulation of the tragedy of (some of) the Internet. The first poster making actually intelligent points that, if the second poster were up to it, could even be absorbed and engaged with so that they themselves could also make more intelligent and astute observations, comments, and critiques on modern day politics and society. Yet it’s simply automatically handwaved away by a “person” who is really more of a mechanism than a human being, because some programming in their brain made them determine, “This doesn’t seem like it fully agrees with me or makes the more obvious blatant point RIGHTWING GOOD LEFTWING BAD clear enough, so you’re my enemy & also are stupid.”

You can see the same thing (reversed) on modern Reddit, where any critiques or suspicion of the modern politically correct liberal worldview of the West is met with, “You must want the FAR-RIGHT FASCISTS like TRUMP to win! You are my enemy and also irredeemably STUPID.”

Antony Sutton has some interesting thoughts on the “Hegelian” worldview of the Western elite, which might actually promote and supports certain conflicts (thesis vs. antithesis) so they can push their own answer to it (synthesis) they already had in mind from the start. Theoretically, according to this system of rule, political polarization would actually be a plus for this covert secretive oligarchy, so that they could obfuscate and hide their power from the masses, while also making them think that “progress” is going on from the fighting of these two political wings (Democrat vs. Republican, capitalism vs. communism, etc). Would be big if true. Sutton also wrote controversial books on how American Wall Street seemed to have funded and supported the rise to power of both Bolshevism and Nazism, which could be attributed either to sheer short-sighted greed, or (potentially) to this “higher” worldview of theirs which actually indeed views drastically opposing worldviews as chesspieces to be moved around on the global board for their own ultimate ends.

>>23546850
You use a lot of words to say nothing.

>>23546847
>marxist
Marxists are not classists. I am.
Give me a list of your top 3 aspirations and top 10 books and more if you deem necessary.

>>23546865
I don't take demands from marxists.

>>23546870
I'm not a Marxist. Marxists want a classless society. I don't.
Give me the lists. A marxists would believe all lists are equal. I do not.

>>23546878
>I'm not a marxist I just hate white people and worship negroids
You are a marxist.

>>23546884
Truly noble whites would have a good list.
You are the bottom of the barrel of your race, hence why you don't share your list.
I descend from literal aristocrats of my race, and it shows on my lists.

>>23546888
So you're already trying to walk back "whites are worse than clinically retarded third world serial rapists".
You're clearly descended from those dysgenic, inbred aristocrats.

>>23546909
People live and die based on their lists. The list is more important than race or anything else. AI should rigidly place people in castes by the age of 33 based on their lists. The AI should also verify that each book on the lists were completed.

I would agree there would be more whites placed in the upper castes based on my approach, but ultimately, everyone is an individual and must be judged by the list.

Those who consume garbage like intersectionality texts, globohomo garbage, and other idpol garbage deserve to die. We live and die based on the list. I am the list. If you are going to mechanize society, then go 100% all the way. We are all numbers, embrace it.

Right now I am consider whether I should break up fiction from non-fiction.

>>23545327
>Hirsi Ali
It's the ''I'm one of the good ones'' mentality, drawing the circle in such a way that you or the things you like are included. You see this constantly. I've been involved in the big far-right party here in my country and have talked to a shit ton of people about immigration over the years and rationalization after making yourself part of the in-group is the most common reaction everyone has about immigration, especially immigrants.

>>23546932
*while making yourself

>>23546539
It's not women's education but female entitlement in general. Pushing them through bullshit degrees and then into bullshit jobs is just one method of making them feel entitled to more than they should deserve given what they can offer to men as women.

And aside from that, there's also the issue of the state being unable to just let women fail economically, which it should because the ability to fail, and the subsequent fear of failure is an important aspect of keeping a functional, healthy society going, as the engine of responsibility.

>>23546307
What's the solution? Fascism??

>>23546925
this is the kind of nigger who buys books he has no intention of reading just so that he can give the false appearance of being well read lmao

>>23546307
>Debt slavery and usury
I would say that's what our previous system was based around, our current system is literally just the government printing money to hand to corporations that don't produce anything.

>>23546964
I only add books I have completed on my list. I have a Goodreads with many reviews too. I am not a poseur.

Moreover, I have never claimed my list is perfect.

Anyways, share your lists, faggot.

>>23546796
Totalitarianism is a technological phenomena; I'm skeptical of a self-conscious elite actively seeking some sort of covert totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is a natural consequence of technology enabling business, bureaucracy, administration, police power, etc, on larger and larger scales and with increasing precision and effectiveness. There is no stable government today that is not on a long-term totalitarian trend.

Case in point, Bernays really seems like a boogeyman; there is no reason to believe that advertising and propaganda have become as effective as some would have us believe. Obviously there is immense power in academia and business as far as being able to set the terms and limits of discussion, but the whole brainwashing thing doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

I agree with everything you say in the last paragraph except I think a more appropriate framing is that it is the natural consequence of advances in technology:
(1) A state expands in function and/or scope, enabled by technology. The post-expansion state becomes the new starting point for political discussion, especially after some time (wherein it becomes the new normal), which leads to a de-facto narrowing of acceptable political discussion, and way more extreme than you might think at first. Think about the political viability of removing Medicare/Medicaid, or even of replacing it with a different program with similar function and scope.
(2) A state, in pursuit of self-preservation, expands its surveillance and police capabilities, enabled by technology, and for obvious reasons perceives extreme political speech as potentially dangerous.

There doesn't have to be any conditioning, if that carries the connotation that there is somebody or some organization at the helm leading it. These things can happen on their own perfectly fine.

>>23546850
>supported the rise to power of both Bolshevism and Nazism
hmmm, while i can't provide any useful thesis on supporting bolshevism, I have read some about the weimar republic.

Germany's economy had made the switch from the gold standard, to Fiat during the great war, and had financed their fighting with debt expecting the conflict to be much shorter than the franco prussian war, debt amounted to 130% of gdp by 1918 before the reparations and much of it was foreign denominated. Then a capital flight occured after Germany lost the war. The exacting fees imposed on Germany after losing the war were usury essentially. While woodrow wilson made lofty speeches on self determination, Germany was required to pay 330% of gdp, all prior loans must be paid in full, any stolen capital returned, and all capital taken from them was lost including annexation of 10% of its people 12% of land and 40% of its iron and steel capacity. The resulting hyperinflation was brutal. When Germany was struggling to pay France and Belgium began occupying mines in the Ruhr valley and ignoring all allied power consensus on debt restructuring. Essentially France bullied and humiliated Germany while the allied powers were extracting its wealth.

The resulting humiliation and usury created an anger in the German people, and a resentment of private credit. The hollowing out of the german economy is likely what caused Nazism. JP Morgan Jr was sent by the US to help Germany manage its inflation crisis, and created a currency system hoodwink and organized a massive loan to the reichsbank to get it back into health. As far as i understand of the deliberation process before and during the Dawes plan, the chief concern was whether the allied powers wanted a strong Germany that could pay back its debts, or a weak Germany that couldn't. The eventual consensus was to give Germany a break, but only after some very embittering years for the German people.

All this to say, unlike the neoliberal case, where exporting labor and importing critical materials/energy from authoritarian countries allows the capital class to access cheaper wages, and materials, the Allied powers were still very much thinking of their own isolationist economies in terms of annexation. This kind of globalist neoliberal economic thinking, NAFTA essentially, really doesn't come into fashion for a bit later into the 20th century. The early 20th century after the great depression is fundamentally Keynesian, and a global order still hasn't really formed. There was a league of Nations for instance, but the united states hadn't joined it. This outlook really changes starting in Chile with Pinochet and Friedman and the neoliberals of the 20th century. It gains a foothold with Jimmy Carter in the 70's, and becomes fully dominant when Clinton throws HW a bone and finished implementing NAFTA in the 90's. liberalism and globalism has not always dominated in the us. It ebbs and flows in history.

>>23538306
Impossible there are too many factors

>>23546269
what would make life worth living for you?

>>23547517
nta, but to no longer be exploited. To receive at least a fair return for labor rendered even if it's not 100%
the labor productivity of a worker in q1 of 2024 in the united states was $112 an hour.
https://data.bls.gov/PDQWeb/pr

>>23547578
That much I agree with, but I don't think "things happening" is going to solve that problem. It will probably make it worse.
I understand you're not that anon but that was what my original post was criticizing.

>>23547587
Neoliberalism was a loser ideology that sat nowhere for decades and really only found its opportunity by seizing on the political and economic dysfunction of the time. Had it not been for Isreal and the Yom Kippur war setting off stagflation with an oil crunch, and the civil rights movement forcing jim crow democrats to choose between racism and the new deal, neoliberalism would still be dead. It took a lot of waiting and writing but eventually, something happened. But it took a while. I can imagine something similar happening. I'd like it to involve keynesian economics, the new deal, and social welfare. Tbh though, I see the direction really heading to some kind of authoritarian direction more than anything. Which is a shame. The answers people are turning to, i feel as though they won't be answers at all. Perhaps their failure will create a bounce back. Perhaps not. it feels too early for me to really know anything.

>>23547602
>I see the direction really heading to some kind of authoritarian direction more than anything.
Yeah this is the point I'm trying to make. You're right about neoliberalism and probably have a better idea of a solution than what we're actually going to get. I've seen enough people in power to know that they're out of touch and retarded, and if they make a move big enough to count as "thing has happened" it will be one step closer to an authoritarian dystopia.

>>23547610
I think there's a real problem for the progressive party and it's young men: they can't secure their vote. Feminism and its anti variety is an un-addressed tension that's isolated young men and stopped them from voting for the progressive bloc, and the right has been capitalizing on that desperation. In much the same way that southern whites were forced to choose between welfare and hating blacks, young men are forced to choose feminist progressives or authoritarians. Young women have been a major push for the democratic party, but young men have been tending to Trump more. Major breaks in the ranks of the democratic party on racial lines are putting young men of black, and latino descent to the right, and the progressive party has legitimately given up on winning them, instead aiming to win over young women who they consider a more politically fecund cohort due to their higher voting rates, but polling implied the strategy isn't working. incel-ism has completely permeated culture despite constant top down bullying censorship and repression. There are a lot of hopeless young men out there whose hearts and minds are up for grabs and no one wants them.

>>23546426
Bullshit. Not only is mass immigration decreasing wages, but historically, Europe's superiority was based on doing more with fewer people. At the most optimistic Europe will simply rot, but most likely it will result in revolution or civil war as it did countless times under these circumstances. Even if all Europeans would accept to be replaced, which is very unlikely, there's still the matter of decreasing wages and quality of life. Mass immigration is really an uphill battle for the establishment.

>>23546469
>unlimited growth for at least five more years
kek

>>23546501
In the US the average height and life expectancy have also been declining for the last two decades. Anyone believing things will go on like this is deeply deluded.

>>23546788
holy fucking kek

>>23546805
>you live a shallow existence
>now list your coomslop so I can judge you on it
okay brudda

>>23546382
You are aware that you're parroting government propaganda. In every country in the world the incumbent political swamp tells you that "this is the best time in the history of our country, we never had it better" and similar drivel.

Learn to look at numbers and stats and compare them correctly.

>>23547935
Life expectancy and height have not been declining for two decades in the us.