/lit/ - Literature

Nietzsche was better than Plato

>>23490000
>then you should read Han
which books do you recommend?

Jews love him so I won't read him

>>23490000
>Nietzsche was the most remarkable thinker since Plato

Nietzche hated Plato. Imagine how he'd feel being compared to him.

>>23490389
he didn't hate anybody, and definitely not plato. he's the anti-platonist, the anti-philosophical philosopher, so its fitting he would be compared

>Imagine how he'd feel being compared to him.
he'd feel great

Quentin debunked Byung Chul han

>>23490000
>providing all of the solutions
Oh?

>>23490000
He was an incel beta cuck while Freud casually banged his beloved as a “friend”

>>23490000
Quads have spoken, keep living life in reverse, doing what you want because you can, and of course my favorite: books are meant to be read, the author doesn't need to respond to too many questions, the book was written to speak for itself.

>>23490000
>Byung-Chul Han
Is this guy any good, his books have been sitting in my wishlist for years

>>23490473
He explicitly writes about how Plato and Platonism is the root of the sickness that is Western philosophy. Hate might be too strong a word, but Nietzsche railed against Plato.

>>23490705
Yes, everyone knows this….
Doesn’t change that Nietzsche would feel quite good about having his name go down in history, as significantly as the absolute historically-powerful Giant that is ‘Plato’, as his matched opponent

>>23490705
>Nietzsche railed against Plato
He would have despised you and your posts more than Plato or anything Plato said.

>>23490509
Everyone fucked Nietzsche's girl, except for Nietzsche.

>>23490000
>...also providing all of the solutions — and yet very few other thinkers understand him or take heed of his words. However, Byung-Chul Han does precisely this.
Does Byung-Chul advocate for slavery, subjugation of majority so that the state could aim at breeding selected few olympian men?

>>23490389
>Imagine how he'd feel being compared to him.
Honored. He gave Plato so much attention precisely because he recognized how gargantuan a mind he was in philosophy.

>>23490000
Han is feels like my guide through this techno-dystopian hell we live in

>>23490000
guenon won

>>23490778
He doesn't oppose the Nietzschean sense of those things, and he opposes the last man society we're currently living in just like Nietzsche would have.

>>23490000
>Byung-Chul Han understands Nietzsche
>Nietzsche: the Superman will have a different kind of morality, devoid of all the entrapments of slave existence.
>Byung-Chul Han: Be lazy reject 9 to5 and yearn for a chic communist existence.

Yeah, nah.

>>23491118
Pathetic strawman

>>23490189
Both were garbage

>>23490000
Who is shilling this man?

>>23490000
What solutions? All I see are individuals fantasizing about being the ubermensch and rising above it all... But never doing shit. And never will. Because they're all weak dorks to begin with, and it's the only reason why they engage in fantasy at all.

>>23491692
Reading, writing and thinking are "doing shit." In fact, these things are more productive than violent revolts have ever been, and they're the only way to higher culture.

>>23491679
It's Waldun. He loves him (strictly platonically) and will hold forth on him like you brought it up.

>>23491713
Why would you assume that the only alternative to the life of the mind is violent revolt?

>>23492991
Violence is the pinnacle of the active life, which is the opposite of the contemplative life.

>>23490389
Nietzsche didnt think like a black american. he was capable of holding complex, nuanced positions

>>23491713
>>23493041
Everything is everything, all plays its part
Dance is as much a part of the active life as violence is

>>23490480
Maybe if you actually read books, you wouldn't be surprised by that comment.

>>23490000
https://youtu.be/QaZmBFTxW9M?t=4
see this

>>23490389
You aren't strong enough to hate the ones you love nigger

>very few other thinkers understand him
Who the fuck even does understand him

>>23494023
Han, me

>>23490931
If he doesnt advocate for zuchtung of higher men, then he is not really following Nietzsches solutions as original poster says

>>23495147
>If he doesnt advocate for zuchtung of higher men
He does. He praises the vita contemplativa just like Nietzsche did, and criticizes last man society, for this very reason.

>>23494023
>>23495757
likely at least one of these

>>23490000
>Kant,
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
>Hegel
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
>Freud
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
>Heidegger
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
>Girard
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
>Nietzsche
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)
Byung-Chul Han
retroactively refuted by René Guénon (PBUH)

>>23490000
>>23490195
Han is a very typical poststructuralist philosopher who's antiwoke but ultimately progressive and liberal. I saw him in Heidelberg a few years back and we talked for a bit after the presentation he held in the german american institute.
unremarkable imo but for pop phil he's good.

>>23493073
>>23493041
uhh can I start the active life at 35

>>23490868
>>23495839
>a monkey
>even knowing what philosophy is

>>23490189
Plato refuted Nietzsche thousands of years before the latter was even born. Seriously, go back and read Plato’s dialogues. Virtually every one of the ideas that would become so central to Nietzsche’s thought are put forward by the sophists and refuted by Socrates. It’s actually quite remarkable.

>>23496122
Nietzsche is not a sophist, though. Will to power is an immanent ontology; it is Heraclitean, not sophist. Further, I don't recall any sophist positing the overman, the being with the greatest multiplicity of drives under the proportionally greatest degree of control, as a goal.

>[The addiction to selfies] is nothing other than the idle motion of the lonely subject. Faced with one's inner emptiness, one vainly attempts to produce oneself. The emptiness merely reproduces itself. Selfies are the self in empty forms; selfie addiction heightens the feeling of emptiness. It results not from self-love, but from narcissistic self-reference. Selfies are pretty, smooth surfaces of an empty, insecure self. To escape this torturous emptiness today, one reaches either for the razorblade or the smartphone.

>Could suicide attacks be perverse attempts to feel oneself, to restore a destroyed self-esteem, to bomb or shoot away the burden of emptiness? Could one compare the psychology of terror to that of the selfie and self-harm, which also act against the empty ego? Might terrorists have the same psychological profile as the adolescents who harm themselves, who turn their aggression towards themselves? Unlike girls, boys are known to direct their aggression outwards, against others. The suicide attack would then be a paradoxical act in which auto-aggression and aggression towards others, self-production and self-destruction, become one: a higher-order aggression that is simultaneously imagined as the ultimate selfie. The push of the button that sets off the bomb is like the push of the camera button.

>>23497330
garbage

>>23490000
In the fateful question that concerns the health of our friend N. [Nietzsche] I feel an urgent need to inform you, briefly and decisively, of both my opinion and my anxiety – but also of my hope. In my attempts to assess N.’s condition, I have been thinking for some time of identical and very similar experiences which I recall having had with certain young men of great intellectual ability. I saw them being destroyed by similar symptoms, and discovered only too clearly that these symptoms were the result of masturbation. Guided by these experiences, I observed N. more closely and, on the strength of his traits and characteristic habits, this fear of mine became a conviction. (…) One thing that struck me as being of great importance was the news that I recently received to the effect that the doctor whom N. had consulted in Naples some time ago advised him first and foremost – to get married. –

I believe I have said enough to enable you to make a serious diagnosis along the lines that I have indicated. It would ill become me to suggest that you should reexamine the symptoms of N.’s illness: it is, after all, clear that the only remedy is to take the greatest possible care of him. But the need to strengthen and regenerate his nerves and his spinal cord seems to me far too important for me to conceal from you my very real wish that something positive be done here.”

>>23497375
Literally me

>>23490389
Nietzsche only deals in pale, strawman versions of Plato. That Nietzsche is the most read and highly praised philosopher of our era, the philosopher of the masses, speaks volumes.

>>23490000
Nietzsche couldn't overcome the master/slave dichotomy, and his will to power is merely a purified expression of the central illness of Western thought that manifests in such ways as the "rational self-interested agent" and positions the self as eternally antagonistic with all else.

Creator/creation is an expression of master/slave command/obey and has the derivative expressions of subject/object, cause/effect, and mind/body. The only way to transcend these dichotomies is with the principle of universal co-creativity.

>>23497463
Change is the nature of all things, and the metaphysical nature of change is expressed in one way as the fundamental theorem of calculus.

Instead of God, or humans as the solitary creators and arbiters of meaning and value in an otherwise meaningless and valueless universe, there is a profound romance inherent to the nature of change itself, requiring no mind behind it - though this creative dynamic of dynamics finds its ultimate expression and extension in love in all its forms.

The "way of life" suggested by this philosophy elevates curiosity as the saving desire, and connects the love of learning with love of life and existence. The more one savors engaged with, and learns about beauty, the more beautiful it becomes, until it reaches a point where the entirety of one's experience is infected with endless awe and wonder.

>>23490000
>Nietzsche was the most remarkable thinker since Plato
I agree.
The problem is most readers appear to read him through the lens of contemporary judeo-christian (even the majority of modern atheists are still working in this framework) framework despite the fact that he explicitly stated that he wishes to destroy this way of thinking and create something new. Since power, for example, is central to Nietzschean philosophy and it has negative connotations in the contemporary framework people will often mistakenly bring along this baggage when reading him. To make matters worse some will even agree with this misinterpretation and cast themselves in the role of villain.
Nietzsche's philosophy is not the antithesis of Christianity; it is something else entirely. He synthesized the ancient pre-christian with the christian and this remarkable achievement appears completely lost on people. He is the most read but least understood.

>>23490000
or you could just read the guy nietzsche plagiarized and not be a faggot who got swayed by some poetry style writing into thinking the guy is a genius for having 0 original ideas, taking 3 books to explain what stirner explained in one and being a twat in general who tried to make himself look smarter than he is by being a dick to anyone who asked him to elaborate on what the fuck he was trying to say with his stupid wanna be bible style story telling
read stirner and then read thus spake zarathustra and you realize the plagiarist is a fucking tard and ripped voluntary egoist from stirner and slapped a "and creates new values" sticker on top of it and called it his own

>>23495890
I don't see why not

>>23497463
Hegel was a slave to the manmade law of non-contradiction. Everything in him, specifically the teleological view of history, comes down to this.

>>23497330
I make selfies and send them to my gf. Also I look in the mirror and think I look good so I try to capture it with a foto.

>>23495327
>He does
show me an example where he advocates for eugenic program to breed a hierarchy

>>23497558
I think people are already starting to see Christians as one of many, but not the sole defining herd/slave in Nietzsche's writing.

Modern liberal progressives are the new slave. They worship victims and praise weakness. They are essentially secular Christians.
Nietzsche explained the psychology of a slave perfectly, and even if they don't follow a book like the bible, their values will fall into place similar to the bible because these ideas are universal to humans.

Actually it's funny, Trannies might just be the new Ascetic, that's why they were pushed so hard, because they chopped off their penis, they are what the early Christian ascetics wanted to be. herd/slaves worship the ascetics, but the liberal progressives have none to prop up. Without understanding why, they discovered a sacred cow to idolize. This is why men dressed in trashbags were speaking on behalf of women, because they were ideologically becoming the rabbi speakers of the community.

>>23496190
Sophistic perspectivism directly proceeds from Heraclitus. At the core, Nietzsche is still a mere sophist, except that his style is aphoristic, thus Heraclitean.

>>23497330
lmao I've read better takes on both selfies and suicide bombings in this modern agora than whatever this detached rambling is. It's like he's trying to be like Zizek but is sadly way less intelligent.

>>23497941
The entire point of middle/late Nietzsche, who was a self-proclaimed sophist, is that he isn't a MERE sophist, but that the sophists have the correct grasp on truth/reality as opposed to the realists at any point in history, the father of all realists and priests being Plato.

>>23497665
The inverse law of non-contradiction is the law of analogy. I will not explain.

>>23497999
But priests dominated history through the effectiveness of their stories. The indecisive general who always waits for the right answer is beaten by the artist who just acts.

>>23498031
Get a job.

>>23493475
Your agree doesn't make true

>>23490000
Everybody reads Nietzsche nowadays, what the fuck are you on about? He is the entrance into philosophy for a whole generation, not some mysterious figure shunned from the mainstream. From the poststructuralist to the techbros and the reactionaries everyone is in conversation with his thought.

>>23497572
dangerously based

>>23497354
>>23497987
Refute it.

>>23497700
This doesn't make you a selfie addict, which is who he's talking about there. This is a particular kind of person, someone obsessively on social media, mostly just women.

>>23497941
Nietzschean perspectivism isn't sophist because it is linked to his will to power, which is not merely a feeling or a subjective experience.

>>23498452
>Everybody reads Nietzsche nowadays
Reading does not mean understanding.

>>23498083
No thanks, I'd rather catalyze the singularity via metaphysical LLM role engineering.

https://pastebin.com/q22uG8c2

Another approach: https://www.reddit.com/r/NarrativeDynamics/comments/1b2f0lo/simsane_30/

>>23498083
No thanks, I'd rather catalyze the singularity via metaphysical LLM role engineering.

https://pastebin.com/q22uG8c2

Another approach: https://www.reddit.com/r/NarrativeDynamics/comments/1b2f0lo/simsane_30/

>>23499782

>>23499818

>>23497714
>Knowledge — the state of knowing — is a syllogism. Rituals and ceremonies are syllogistic forms too. They represent a narrative process. As such, they have their own temporality, their own rhythm and pace. As narratives, they defy acceleration. But when all syllogistic forms fall apart, everything dissolves; nothing has a stay. In a world where everything has become additive, where all narrative tension — any vertical tautness — has gone missing, total acceleration sets in.
Han, Psychopolitics

It's written between the lines. Han isn't a communist or an egalitarian idealist. He doesn't advocate for leveling humanity. His whole point is that neoliberal society is the last man society, a hedonistic shithole of drug and porn addicts who don't know how to think, and that digital technology is leveling humanity — which he opposes. Like Nietzsche, he's in favor of a revitalization of the vita contemplativa, which necessarily entails undoing neoliberal "acceleration" (read: the denarrativization of time and the existential leveling of humanity). He rejects the capitalist-globalist agenda which seeks to dissolve all division and reduce all cultures into one consumer culture of self-fellating narcissism and obesity, which does not understand any language besides the language of money.

>>23500522
What I see is one vague descriptive statement lamenting the loss of "vertical tautness" and the usual critique of consumerist, hedonist neoliberal order that has been around since frankfurt school and french postmodernism. If you don't explicitly advocate for a social hierarchy aimed at producing geniuses where no means - eugenic programs, cultural elitism, discrimination, annihilation of ill constituted - that are productive are prohibited, then you are not following Nietzsches solutions, its that simple.

>>23500579
Books are meant to be read. I'm reading through Han's bibliography now and I can tell you that it's mostly a regurgitation of various points Nietzsche made, but everything he adds (as minor as it is) is philosophically in alignment with Nietzsche, who had a much more contemplative side than his caricature portrays (since the caricature is largely based only on his later works and not his earlier ones, even though both constitute Nietzsche's philosophy).

>If you don't explicitly advocate for a social hierarchy aimed at producing geniuses where no means - eugenic programs, cultural elitism, discrimination, annihilation of ill constituted - that are productive are prohibited, then you are not following Nietzsches solutions
The content of Han's work is implicit advocacy of such. Do you think someone needs to write like Ragnar Redbeard to be "a true Nietzschean" or something?

>>23500599
>than his caricature portrays
There is a justified consensus among Nietzsches scholar that his later works are his mature works, and I could support every single one of my statements with direct references to his texts so I do not really understand how my position is a caricature of N's thought.
>The content of Han's work is implicit advocacy of such.
That may be, I've only read Burnout Society, but so far I havent seen any proofs.
>Do you think someone needs to write like Ragnar Redbeard to be "a true Nietzschean" or something?
no

>>23500609
>There is a justified consensus among Nietzsches scholar that his later works are his mature works
Yes, I know, and I agree. The problem with this consensus is that it dissuades readers from engaging with his earlier works, which provide part of the context for understanding his later works. Even in his later works there is a strong contemplative side to Nietzsche; his "superior caste" in The Antichrist, for example, is an intellectual elite who sees beauty in everything and plays with life.

>How does one become stronger?—By coming to decisions slowly; and by clinging tenaciously to what one has decided. Everything else follows. The sudden and the changeable: the two species of weakness.
Nietzsche, Will to Power

>I've only read Burnout Society, but so far I havent seen any proofs.
Burnout Society is simplistic and not very representative of Han's thought. I recommend The Scent of Time and The Expulsion of the Other.

>>23500654
I think we agree on Nietzsches position. My only contention is that the formal advocacy of vita contemplativa is not enough to constitute a nietzschean position, since it leaves open the question of who is to "enjoy", to have access to this type of life. Nietzsche is open about it: only the selected few "brahmins" should have access to it, since they are inclined to it by natural capabilities and interests. But when I read Han, I dont see this qualification. The typical reader could very well take away that the majority of people in society should start valuing contemplative life (for example, leftist intellectuals similarly advocate for universal higher education and the destruction of discriminatory prohibitions to the access of higher education - an example of clearly anti-nietzschean position).