/lit/ - Literature

master of speculative fiction.

>>23429583
I remember an anecdote about him from Orson Scott Card. They were at a sci-fi writer's convention or something and were brainstorming a story together with the other gathered authors. The group had invented a fantasy character—a young king who had to abstain from all sexual activity as a kind of sacrifice; if he ever achieved any kind of sexual fulfillment, his kingdom would weaken, the magic that sustained it would slacken or fade. They all came to the natural conclusion that the young king would be yearning for sex and trying to find a way to escape his guardians. But Wolfe apparently said, "No, no, you don't understand. This young man thinks they don't restrict him enough. He's absolutely terrified that he'll accidentally slip into some form of sexual release and cause some dire consequence to his people. He'd make sure they watch him all the time."

puzzle master at the intersection of genre fic and ergodic lit. His writings a beacon of hope and wit in an otherwise hapless mire, his work a torchlight I'll carry with me til my last.

>>23429583
>character named Severian
>severs heads for a living
What was he thinking
>>23429659
Card to Wolfe is like Rowling to Dickens

Is this worth reading. It sounds very lame with it’s edgy anime name.
But i’d like to read some good sci fi, never read anything i was blown away by.
Why/why not. Dont lie to me.

Genre wolfe

>>23429626
FPBP. Hotheads GTFO.

>>23430637
don't listen to the gene haters that pop up every thread with their massively reductionist posts and anime comparisons. he's the best writer of our generation and arguably prior generation. read botns then read fifth head of cerberus.

>>23429583
In this sub Gene Wolfe is an hero, end of story

Writer I am interested in reading.

>>23429583
A CUTE WALRUS

>>23430637
Read fantasy and read Bakker instead

>>23429583
Genius

>>23431466
He's no Sanderson or Erikson. BOTNS is for people who don't like fantasy

>>23432251
that anon wanted sci fi. gene wolfe is a sci fi genius. sanderson is a fantasy rpg mechanic autist.

>>23432266
Sanderson is the greatest fantasy writer of our times. Wolfe never wrote anything as compelling and seminal as The Way of kings, the greatest book ever written

>>23432275
they are different genres, first of all, so i assume it was a mistake on your part to even mention the two authors you did. secondly, gene wolfe takes a mary sue in patera silk and makes a more compelling main character than anyone of the mains in way of kings.

>>23432288
You've not read A way of Kings, I assume, yes?

>>23432304
not fully. it's 1000 pages of embarassingly bad prose.

>>23432329
>it's 1000 pages of embarassingly bad prose.
I never asked you to describe Wolfe's oeuvre.

>>23432361
>She stared eastward, her expression horrified, eyes wide and sorrowful. It was the face of a child watching a brutal murder that stole her innocence.
>He looked eastward, over the Shattered Plains. His home. His sepulcher. This life on them was ripping him apart. The bridgemen looked up to him, their leader, their saviour. But he had cracks in him, like the cracks in the stone here at the edges of the Plains.

>“Is ambition such an unseemly attribute in a young woman?”
>“Well, no, I suppose not.” He smiled again—the thick, toothy smile of a >merchant trying to put someone at ease. “I can see you are a woman of >discriminating taste.”
>“I am,” Shallan said, voice firm though her heart fluttered. Was she destined to get into an argument with everyone she met? “I do like my meals prepared very carefully, as my palate is quite delicate.”
>“Pardon. I meant that you have discriminating taste in books.”
>“I’ve never eaten one, actually.”

>>23432489
And there's better prose in Wolfe?

>>23430637
>it’s edgy anime name
You have been corrupted by zoomer culture and should never read books.
Stick to your gay comics.

>>23432251
>BOTNS is for people who don't like fantasy
Presumably because it isn't fantasy, dumbass.

>>23432598
yea, pick a page. sanderson self admittedly writes like this. he aims for a "glass that doesn't obscure where other authors use stained glass windows; are poetic". this is all beside the point and i don't want to shit on sanderson too hard. the anon i responded to wanted a sci fi req and you pushed malzahar and sanderson's world.

>>23432616
This place wouldn't have existed without weaboos, you know right?

>>23430637
Is alice in wonderland with a sperg as a protagonist

>>23432687
there is little in common between spare prose and the embarrassment you quoted above

>>23430637
I thought the same thing, and hate fantasy and nerd shit, "THE SWORD OF SEPTERION!" type of garbage. It's not that at all, it's now one of my favorite books.

>>23432361
very first page of mistborn
>"There were so many corpses, and among them walked the living. Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads. Juxtaposed between them were others in gleaming plate armor. One group walked past, four men in their ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather joining a powerful figure in beautiful silver plate, amazingly intricate. Such a contrast."
it's just so fucking clumsy.

here is him fumbling around with the "shadow of his former self" metaphor:
>"He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind."

I don’t know mate, without having read the book the name rings warning bells. And exactly because i don’t want to read any comic tier drivel, i’m asking.
Seeing it on here all the time makes me curious

>>23432784
Same, then i’ll give it a go

>>23430637
Read Fifth Head of Cerberus instead.

>>23431466
Legends of Urth and Sky was one of my favorite bits. Especially the tale of the student and his son. It’s actually super clever

>>23429583
So after finishing Claw, I was pondering about Jonas. I came to the conclusion that he was sort of in a planet of the apes situation where he did not realize the planet he was on is his home planet. When he hears the tale from Athens, and an Asian name from our present day, he goes silent until he leaves.

He leaves saying 'I know exactly where we are, Urth (Earth)' and leaves through a mirror time machine (as opposed to a teleporter to a space ship like I originally thought.)

>>23433339
No, he knows where they are, he says when they returned the ports were gone. But then why does he say that? Did he mean to say he knows where they are, an extra-solar teletransportation chamber? When when Severian asks he just replies the "port", implying the destination is another planet?

>>23432251
I can't believe I breathe the same air as genrefags

>>23433416
The ports were landing pads for spacecraft on urth. Him and his crewmates were on a different craft from Tzadkiel's, that also warped time to the point where his return was thousands of years after (or before) leaving

>>23432275
SO true!

>>23433475
Yes, I know. The issue is why does he say "I know where we are. On Urth." At that moment when it's obvious he knows the planet he is. Unless, he doesn't, and Wolfe didn't explain well that not only Jonas didn't leave from Urth, but has never been on Urth before arriving, and his home planet is somewhere else. That'd explain why he speaks about the "strange little customs" as if he wasn't from Urth. He read a book about Urth. Then when he says "On Urth" he's actually saying "Earth" in plain English and Severian understands Urth.

>>23433492
What the fuck is this kek did you pick this from fanfiction.net?

>>23429583
... cacogen.

>>23433520
This is completely besides the point, but I've been re-reading this section and I cant help but feel bad for Severian when he finds out Jonas is really a robot and says, "The eyes … They could not replace your eyes. Is that right? And so they gave you that face. Was he killed too?" [...] "That was why you were able to tolerate me, a torturer. You are a machine." I might be reading too much into this but I guess I forgot how lonely Severian was and finding out his one friend was really a robot hurt him. As if a human wouldn't put up with him or like him.

>>23433824
Yes, if you think about it BotNS is a very lonely story. The parts with Treskele hit specially hard after you notice it. The moment Dorcas calls him Death is a real heartbreaker.

Wolfe obviously based the torturers off the late medieval executioners. That said, do we know what sources Wolfe used for his research? That would be an interesting read.

>>23433879
They say he liked Borges a lot. Seems he lifted the Alzabo from The Book of Imaginary Beings.

>>23433883
There's actually a ton more from Borges in Wolfe's work. I'd say he is his biggest influence

>>23433883
the fish in father inire's mirror, baldanders, the alzabo, and more can all be found in Borges

>>23429626
>>23429659
>>23429737
>>23431466
>>23432784
>>23433883
midwits detected
>Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.
>Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.
>I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.
>The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

>>23435916
this goodreads reviewer, j.g. keely, hadn't even finished claw when he wrote this. the threads from years back calling him out are hilarious.

>>23429583
...slut for BBC.

>>23435916
>Moorcock
>>I kept waiting for something to happen

>>23435916
Why'd you take out the part where he whines about misogny? He's a feminized nu-male which explains why it's hard for him to appreciate the genius of Wolfe. He should stick to reddit sci-fi.

>>23435916
bros... we should really only purchase novels free of misogyny... this book perpetuates harmful stereotypes about women and its not okay

>>23435916
This is a pretty substance-less review. He just says he thinks "nothing happened" and it's "dull" and "things are left to interpretation" without justifying any of them. That last one is pretty funny because the rest of the review is him trying to posture as a smart boy for reading a bunch of 'big' names of literature, aping what he thinks a smart person would do, apparently unaware that smart people like to think.

Reading fiction is a recreational activity, and only wannabes think they're smart for having read a bunch of "important" made up stories. Why should I be impressed with your poxedex of authors when all your reading hasn't even given you the ability to make real critiques?

>>23436060
Damn Severian really ruffled some feathers by raping Jolenta.

>>23431466
Can an intelligent anon explain to me, a retard, the significance of the ending in Citadel of the Autarch. I felt like him returning to the atrium of time was an odd place to end the series, and that Urth was a more logical conclusion to the series.

>>23436060
i dont remember anyone liking severian, at most they liked him publically torturing somebody

>>23430637
>with it’s
midwit

>>23436319
it's been a minute, but i recall the atrium of time being a similar thing to ash's cabin or the botanical gardens. severian is still in the citadel in the courtyard of the atrium, but has never seen this place before from his matachin tower. in the beginning of the story, valeria says something along the lines of we wait for the autarch of our generation, and there were other lines about the statues and satellite dishes were there because it was called the atrium of time, not the opposite; as well was some latin mottos about the beam of the new sun. all of this points to the starting point of his trip to be tested. if you dr talos' play from claw, it kind of summarizes what will happen after he passes the test so urth of the new sun wasn't entirely necessary even though i really enjoyed the second half of it.

>>23436319
I always thought it was because of Valeria's words: "Because you loved him, another may love him. Because you loved him, you may love another." At the end of the series, Severian is much like Triskele, lame and alone. If Severian loved Triskele, then maybe Valeria could love Severian.

>>23429659
Wolfe is a hack but lumping in OSC with him is insulting.

>>23433743
>caco
>gen
>literally "from shit"
Really creative slur for aliens.

>>23430637
It has cool schizoid worldbuilding. The main plot is mediocre if not a complete afterthought. At a certain point though you get the impression wolfe is just trying to cram in every idea from every science fantasy book he's ever read.

>>23435923
>>23435929
>>23436006
>>23436038
>>23436060
>>23436168
imagine being so filtered by based hodgson vance and smith that you have to read a shitty self-insert novel written by a fat pringles salesman that rips off the aforementioned authors and then you pretend it's better than actual literary fiction
>Then there is the fact that every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.
>Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.
>This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him--I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.
>I agree with this reviewer that there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.
>At that point, it's just a trick--adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there. Covering the story with a lot of vagaries and noise may impress some, but won't stand up to careful reading.

>>23433520
Jonas was fucked up after Hethor's thing attacked the antechamber. When Severian rescues him he's disoriented and slips into a "nasal monosyllabic tongue".
My interpretation is that before the sun conked out, there was crazy hyperwar shit happening, and Jonas is from a colonized planet or Korean generation ship (he says that Kim Il-Soong or something similar was a common name where he's from) that crashed on Urth. I think the fact that he says it in the antechamber is just to show that he's getting his senses together and asking Sev to get him the fuck off this planet.

>>23436580
>being so filtered by based hodgson vance and smith

Whos being filetered? Most people who like BotNS like all those writers(I personal prefer Smith greatly to Wolfe).

With regards to the actual critique, BotNS is a surrealist sci-fi story. It has more in common with the works of Chesterton then anything else. If you read "Man Who Was Thursday" you will understand what Wolfe is going for.
Not only do characters constantly re-appear but the world itself tends to loop back on itself.
Sverian winds right back at his home by books ends(with zero intention of doing so. He breaks out of a dungeon that people have rooted in for generations only to finds its a waiting room in a places he's been before.
This constant mingling of places and identities creates a effect the book is going for. It sounds like you just wanted Dune and got filtered.

>>23429583
...coomer

What did the Lovecraft monsters under the sea want? Why were they at war with the Autarch?

>>23437040
They wanted to control the New Sun i.e. Severian in order to ensure their continued survival and dominance.

>>23436580
You should add the Time Machine and 1984 to that image. There's one part in the 2nd book where he just ctrl+c ctrl+v's the moorlocks and another with a guy who talks in painfully cringe not-newspeak

>>23436663
Would make sense too, what with typhon leaving a power vacuum some time after the Whorl launches.

>>23436580
strawman into another j.g. keely quote. here's another from his review.
>Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I have no interest in reading your average sword-wielding badass gender-challenged fantasy book over and over in the hopes that it will get better. If Wolfe is capable of writing an original and interesting story, why cover it with a dull and occasionally insulting one?
man of onions doesn't understand subtext and completely missed what little he did read; remember, he did not finish claw when he wrote this.

>>23436580
>copypasted review from illiterate faggot
develop your own opinions, read the books tubbo

>>23430637
If you've read some actual litterature don't bother, it won't bring you much. If you're a genrefag you might find it mindblowing indeed.

>>23436721
>Whos being filetered? Most people who like BotNS like all those writers(I personal prefer Smith greatly to Wolfe).
Wolfe fanboys literally think that wolfe invented the dying earth genre
Wolfe fanboys literally insult authors like vance and smith
They're a blight on the dying earth
>With regards to the actual critique, BotNS is a surrealist sci-fi story. It has more in common with the works of Chesterton then anything else. If you read "Man Who Was Thursday" you will understand what Wolfe is going for.
It's surrealistic and deep if you've never read actual literature before
>>23437690
>keely is onions
Keely likes conan and other masculine fantasy, he doesn't enjoy self insert edgelord torturer with black hair and huge muscles killing monsters and having sex with every girl he meets kind of fantasy
>dude he didn't finish claw
yes he did
wolfefags lambast keelys review because he didnt read the entire four books as if you have to read four books to review one book
>>23438030
stop reading genre slop and pretending it's better than actual literary fiction
>tubbo
don't call other people fat when your treasured author weighed over three hundred pounds

What is this 'actual literature'? Is it in the room with us right now?

>>23438882
>It's surrealistic and deep if you've never read actual literature before

Nah, you just got filtered. Id suggest reading some Chesterton and Kafka before attempting Wolfe. Magical realism in general would also be a good genre to read in before you read Wolfe.

But its possible that your just not capable of enjoying something with these literary techniques. Mabey you should stick with Brandon Sanderson.

>>23438882
>Wolfe fanboys literally think that wolfe invented the dying earth genre blah blah
yea, another strawman. i suspect you are the same gene hater in every thread with the similarity of things rattled off.
>Keely likes conan and other masculine fantasy, he doesn't enjoy self insert edgelord torturer with black hair and huge muscles killing monsters and having sex with every girl he meets kind of fantasy
retard, i read his review and he isn't as intelligent or receptive as he thinks he is. he feels the need to list authors of old to sniff his own farts, but then posts midwit takes like this
>The women always seem to end up as playtoys for the narrator, running around naked, desiring him, sparring with him coyly, but ultimately, conquered; and the camera pans away. They always approach him, desire him, pretending they don't want him, then give themselves up to him. It's the same old story of an awkward, emotionless male protagonist who is inexplicably followed and harangued by women who fall in love with him for no given reason, familiar to anyone who's seen a harem anime.

every single woman in this story sleeping with severian is manipulating him or using him. the dynamic might not be apparent to you or severian, who is an unreliable narrator because he has no frame of reference for almost everything. keely doesn't seem to pick up on this, among other things. wolfe is transparently deceptive, which is the reason people enjoy rereading his works, not because there is a lack of structure and they like to impose their own thoughts into the narrative.
>wolfefags lambast keelys review because he didnt read the entire four books as if you have to read four books to review one book
he was the one on this board linking to his review and he hadn't finished it yet. there is an archived thread of it. i also think it's entirely fair to call him out on reviewing an unfinished story.

>>23439244
To be completely fair to mr keely Severian's autism isn't THAT easy to pick up on because you can make the mistake of assuming the general akwardness of the narrative is due to it taking place in a far, strange future and not due to Severian being a bit of a sperg, and in doing so completely miss the aspects that make the whole unreliable narrator aspect of the novel more apparent. I made the same mistake the first time around and ended up also dropping the series after finishing shadow.

the future namefag dystopia was real

>>23432489
>It was the face of a child watching a brutal murder that stole her innocence.
.....
do fantasyfags really

>>23436538
I think it's more like "creator of evil" "bringer of bad things". Sorta like Iatrogenic.

I just wanted to talk about Book of the New Sun...
I forgot how vicious the fights in /lit/ are, it's like watching two chess nerds beating the shit out of each other over a checkmate

>>23439519
For some reason there's a handful of people here who brigade every time Wolfe is mentioned.
The Wolfe subr_ddit is actually pretty decent, although there's a lot of "I've only read a quarter of this book but I need to be spoonfed!" and two resident autists who shill their crack theories in every thread with actual discussion.

Anyone here like 'Many Mansions' as much as I did? It definitely felt like it was in the world of 5HOC, and I really liked the campfire spookiness of it all. Even the idea of just being a roaming house seems cool in a way.

Chapter 14-16 of the claw of the conciliator: did Thecla and her friends really randomly torment the prisoners of the antechamber (who are seemingly imprisoned there for no good reason) by spooking them and whipping them while they were sleeping? Man the exultants are absolute dicks.

>>23440038
Yes, she did. Remember, the Autarch implies later she's not a very good person.

>>23438882
>stop reading genre slop and pretending it's better than actual literary fiction
t. sanderson enthusiast
you weigh 350 minimum

>>23429583

>leave /lit/ for three years
>no call of the crocodile shilling
>book of the new sun shills live and well

Where have all the good books gone?

>>23436580
>hodgson vance and smith
Wolfe is on a completely different level to these three, it's like comparing Beethoven to the Macarena. Vance and Smith are completely capable pulp authors, but Hodgson is just terrible. The House on the Borderlands is just a badly written pile of long run on sentences.

>>23438882
I doubt he ever weighed more than 200lbs, he was a skinnyfat manlet

>>23440509
He's been doing this for years, I refuted the Keely copy/paste over a year ago so bad he stopped posting it but evidently he has nothing else in his life

>>23440607
>that wolf shirt
He really was perfect

>>23440502
have you considered leaving again?

>>23429583
landsharkian thread

>>23429659
He's right though.

>>23440607
He was left handed? Explains some things.

>>23441171
what things

>>23439244
>yea, another strawman. i suspect you are the same gene hater in every thread with the similarity of things rattled off.
nice schizo strawman
there are plenty of people on /lit/ who don't think gene wolfe is the greatest author who ever lived
>retard, i read his review and he isn't as intelligent or receptive as he thinks he is. he feels the need to list authors of old to sniff his own farts, but then posts midwit takes like this
There is nothing wrong in his statement. BOTNs is just wish-fulfillment self insert fantasy, nothing inherently wrong with that but you're a retard if you think it's some literary masterpiece
>which is the reason people enjoy rereading his works, not because there is a lack of structure and they like to impose their own thoughts into the narrative
people enjoy rereading his works because they're midwits who are too stupid to read actual literary works so they rearead sci fi novels and try to pretend there's some great profound meaning and narrative in them
imagine if you put all the effort you have reading and rereading all 12 new sun books into reading actual literary classics
>he was the one on this board linking to his review and he hadn't finished it yet. there is an archived thread of it. i also think it's entirely fair to call him out on reviewing an unfinished story.
Literally no proof for any of this despite what you've claimed, and you shouldn't have to read an entire series to review a single book. you're the kind of retard who thinks anyone who criticises the wheel of time needs to read all 12,000 pages of it
midwit pseud
>>23439892
People don't like wolfefags because they're immature infantile midwits who think their ok sci fi novel is the greatest work of fiction ever written who also lambast the works wolfe took from
>>23440056
wolfe is sanderson for midwits instead of dullards
>>23440509
All those authors are better than wolfe
You wolfefags will cry about people hating wolfe then pretend the people wolfe took from are inferior writers
>>23440607
americans will see a guy with a beer gut neck jowls and no facial definition and pretend they aren't grossly overweight
delusional wolfefag

>>23441774
>cope
read the books tubbo

>>23441774
Okay mister book expert what should i be reading instead then?

Maybe give us YOUR recommendations in instead of going "Nah-uh"

People like you are the reason /a/ and /v/ are such shitholes lol

>>23441864
Wolfe was a fat fuck like you, wolfefag
>>23442106
>Okay mister book expert what should i be reading instead then?
the faerie queene
one spensnerian stanza is better than the entirety of wolfes written work
>People like you are the reason /a/ and /v/ are such shitholes lol
i don't go on either of them because i'm not a mentally stunted manchild who plays bideo games or watches tranime

>>23441774
you come into every thread and just present things that don't exist in any post to attack. it's bizarre behavior, anon. no one is saying he's the greatest to ever live, nor are they saying they don't enjoy other works. the one anon you responded to even said he preferred smith.
>There is nothing wrong in his statement. BOTNs is just wish-fulfillment self insert fantasy,
he's objectively wrong in his assessment of what is happening in the story. for whatever reason that is, he's just flat out incorrect.
> but you're a retard if you think it's some literary masterpiece
an example of my first statement. you have some inner demons to reconcile with.
>Literally no proof for any of this despite what you've claimed
i don't care enough to dig through the archives but the links were posted in the last long wolfe thread.
>people enjoy rereading his works because they're midwits who are too stupid to read actual literary works so they rearead sci fi novels and try to pretend there's some great profound meaning and narrative in them
like i said before, wolfe is transparently deceptive in how he writes and utilizes a few techniques to obfuscate clues that are right in front of you. the unreliable narrator with no frame of reference for things is one of them. another is the literal vs metaphorical meaning of things in character interactions that lead to tangents. for instance, the supernatural castle in the sky beaming bright crimson is literally a tent floating on fire, but you miss it if you aren't careful in the simple passer by's dialogue. another example of a wolfe technique is in long sun where a certain character is revealed to be a part of a revolution; the gravity of the reveal is sort of hidden among an engineering explanation of how a needler works. lol
>you're the kind of retard who thinks anyone who criticises the wheel of time needs to read all 12,000 pages of it midwit pseud
critique of prose is fair, but that's not what keely is doing. he's going after plot elements that he doesn't understand/fly over his head, nor sees to conclusion. 3 body problem may have incredible ideas but i couldn't get through 100 pages of its flat and clumsy authorship and i think that opinion is valid.
>imagine
ok reddit. people can read whatever they want to.
>People don't like wolfefags because they're immature infantile midwits who think their ok sci fi novel is the greatest work of fiction ever written who also lambast the works wolfe took from
this again.

hopefully people just fucking ignore you and continue asking about wolfe books.

>the autarch, whose shitposts are the ambrosia of his subjects

>>23442832
>...so then I cloned the court ladies and forced these clones to prostitute themselves in the slums
>Why?
>Because it was fun
Definitely based

>>23442796
>you come into every thread and just present things that don't exist in any post to attack. it's bizarre behavior, anon. no one is saying he's the greatest to ever live, nor are they saying they don't enjoy other works. the one anon you responded to even said he preferred smith.
Wolfe fans have been saying for years that wolfe is the greatest author ever, that he's better than proust, that he created the dying earth genre, that he's the greatest writer of the 20th century. you can find all that shit in the archives. He wrote some good (for the genre) sci fi novels and nothing more than that, his work is obviously better than most sci fi fantasy slop but it's not literary
>he's objectively wrong in his assessment of what is happening in the story. for whatever reason that is, he's just flat out incorrect.
he's completely right
>like i said before, wolfe is transparently deceptive in how he writes and utilizes a few techniques to obfuscate clues that are right in front of you. the unreliable narrator with no frame of reference for things is one of them. another is the literal vs metaphorical meaning of things in character interactions that lead to tangents. for instance, the supernatural castle in the sky beaming bright crimson is literally a tent floating on fire, but you miss it if you aren't careful in the simple passer by's dialogue. another example of a wolfe technique is in long sun where a certain character is revealed to be a part of a revolution; the gravity of the reveal is sort of hidden among an engineering explanation of how a needler works. lol
He really isn't
and obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation doesn't make something inherently good
His prose is good but not the best. his action scenes are inferior compared to other fantasy authors like howard or even gemmell
>critique of prose is fair, but that's not what keely is doing. he's going after plot elements that he doesn't understand/fly over his head, nor sees to conclusion
Keely read the first book and criticized it.
You should not need to read an entire series to criticize a single book
>ok reddit. people can read whatever they want to.
yeah grown men should be allowed to read the very hungry caterpillar and nothing else and if you think it's weird then you're just being judgemental
imbecile
>this again.
Wolfefags in this very thread are criticising the very authors wolfe took from
>hopefully people just fucking ignore you and continue asking about wolfe books.
hopefully people reading wolfe will lead them to read the books that wolfe took from like the dying earth and the night land but from what i've seen they get filtered by those works and proclaim wolfe as better

>>23442678
>Wolfe was a fat fuck
and so are you, sloplet. read the books lardass

>>23441447
The question of Severian's handedness and lack of sense of direction, Wolfe clearly survived being whipped by nuns and going back to something he could read. Also things every sinistrally inclined person knows instinctively but poindexters are left out on. I wouldn't know where to start there.

>>23442900
fine go you slink in your sinister shadows
there's an ambidextrous narrator in the sorcerer's house I guess

>>23442871
>Wolfe fans have been saying for years that wolfe is the greatest author ever, that he's better than proust, that he created the dying earth genre, that he's the greatest writer of the 20th century. you can find all that shit in the archives.
if someone in a wolfe thread says something like that, contest them on it. you aren't civil in any of this. you just come off like a raving lunatic when you rattle off arguments vs opponents that don't exist and then copy pasta keely.
>he's completely right
i explained why he's wrong earlier. go back and read it and then maybe say why exactly he is right.
>He really isn't and obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation doesn't make something inherently good
you're doing it again. i'm explaining to you why people reread wolfe. they discover clues that were there the entire time on the page in front of them. earlier in the thread i mentioned the atrium of time which is a place visited extremely early in the book. the unreliable narrator has you believe the courtyard is full of sundials and clocks because he doesn't know what satellite dishes are, the careful reader has to resolve this. he also explains how he couldn't see this place from his tower and it's not on maps. later on in the story he visits botanical gardens employing the same "trick"; and even later in citadel, ash's cabin. rereading chapters like atrium of time is like figuring out a puzzle to people and this is the enjoyment they get from it. i didn't say it was good, and it's clearly not "obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation" like some authors may do in later works hindsight correcting or explaining something.
>Keely read the first book and criticized it.
dodging my point about the type of critique. he clearly missed what was happening on the pages; especially the power dynamic in women vs severian.

for me, its pic rel

>>23443248
Not related

>>23443356
well... its "fantasy" but really historical fiction
its a bit more upfront about the fantastical elements being the result of grounded processes, but still somewhat tries to frame things as open-ended

>>23443360
This isn't /SFFG/

>>23443248
Was thinking about reading this trilogy next. What do you like about it?

>>23443480
There are some pacing problems, I generally found the battle scenes a bit too lengthy and not too interesting since they're historically rooted in shield-wall/phalanx battles. But everything beyond that is really great. All the characters seemed really fleshed out and multi-dimensional, and the way the author dealt with the pagan vs christian vs roman stuff was well-studied/informed. He did a pretty good job of writing a pagan Arthur while still depicting the savage elements of british paganism.

>>23443500
Sounds decent, TY, I'll give it a try.

>>23442678
>Discarding entire forms of media, even graphic novels, due to your own elitism.

Good to known Wolfe filters assholes. I love his work even more now. Why don't you go back to the fart-sniffing instead of posting on here?

>>23443484
>silk
>blonde

>>23443830
Silk is blonde, isn't he? I swear he's referred to as towheaded at least a couple times

>>23444488
he's described with blonde hair in nightside, yes. i haven't finished long sun and know nothing about short sun so i hope that anon isn't spoiling.

>>23443530
>graphic novels

>>23432718
One of the many things they have to answer for.

>>23432859
Holy shit, that's awful.
I like how he felt the need to add "Such a contrast," in case his readers didn't get it.
And anyone who uses "juxtaposed" in their prose should be beheaded.

>>23433520
I don't know why so many Wolfefags feel the need to overcomplicate things like this.
Jonas came from Earth, during its long-past golden age when humans were capable of space-flight, and its name hadn't been corrupted to "Urth".
His ship returned after millennia of voyaging, to find that the space ports where it could land no longer existed. The ship attempted a crash-landing whch went badly wrong.
Jonas explains it all in plain-enough language, so I don't know why there's any confusion.

>>23436538
>picture-book enthusiast displays ignorance of etymology
Colour me amazed.

>>23436222
Severian didn't rape Jolenta.

>>23436580
>there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it
This faggot doesn't even understand why Severian is an "unreliable narrator." Inattentive midwits always seem to get hung up on this.
Severian isn't "unreliable" because he's a liar, it's because he's led a sheltered life and doesn't always understand what's happening. That's all.

>>23436377
>urth of the new sun wasn't entirely necessary
And Wolfe didn't want to write it. He considered it redundant, but his publishers insisted that he "finish" the story.

>>23438882
>Jack fucking Vance
You might have chosen a taller hill to die on than this.

>>23440637
rekt

>>23444492
He isn't, he's just retarded

>>23444656
>He considered it redundant
Source on this part specifically? In the interview on Pavel's channel, he seemed proud enough of the story. I feel like people who dislike Urth try to overemphasize the fact that the story was initially pushed for by the editors. AFAIK, he just wanted to tell the story of Severian's rise to the throne in BOTNS, and felt Urth needed to be seperate. I do think it is kinda crazy the book of the new sun doesn't involve its creation or even existence.

>>23444662
vance is great actually even for pulp, try the dying earth stories

>>23444584
This is how I understood it as well.

>he doesn't know about the landers

>>23444564
What's wrong with them?

>>23441774
Post body

>>23445538
Picture-books aren't novels. Only insecure manbabies pretend they are.

>>23445538

>>23444584
Then explain why he said "I know where we are. On Urth."

>>23445878
What's to explain? It's called Urth now.

>>23445878
he probably meant "earth" but severian took it as urth. his "earth" was unrecognizable to him and in his psychosis he might have been having a planet of the apes moment from his time in the antechamber.

>>23445573
You sound like the type of guy who only reads encyclopedias as anything else is useless and beneath him.

>>23446386
No, he doesn't.

Read BOTNS during lockdown while I was feeling le nostalgic and sentimental and thought it was some of the best literature I had ever read.
Read Nightside of the Long Sun last month and thought it was uninspired purple prose.
Am I missing something? Does Books of the Long Sun get any better or is Wolfe just a hack?

>>23446478
no, long sun is pretty great. wolfe takes a mary sue in silk and makes such a compelling character that is just so unbelievably honest; even when dealing with dangerous people of the underworld like blood or different prostitutes. i think you just need to take a step back and laugh sometimes at the absurdity he gets himself into like shriving a criminal but really only to ask for his help or being a priest and never committing any crimes of the sort, but to think himself capable of breaking into a mansion with zero resources. the first book is a heist, the second is more political intrigue, etc. they are all different.

>>23446386
You can enjoy them and not think they are books. Anyone calling a comic a graphic novel is doing it to pretend what they are reading isn't just a comic.

>>23447357
Or they're just using their current era's english language words in a way that usually gets the idea across, man/babyman

>>23447657
Strictly speaking a graphic novel is a lengthy comicbook that's published as a single, complete work, while most comics are serialised.
Unfortunately it gets used to mean "comic book that it's socially acceptable to tell people you've read."

>>23446478
To me the main thing that makes Long Sun less impressive is the fact that it's written in a third person style rather than the first person. Feels like a lot of complexity is lost when you're not analyzing who is writing the story as you're reading it. It's worth powering through so you can get to Short Sun desu.

>>23446478
What carried my reading of Long Sun was pretenting it was a sort of prequel to the Pandorum film. I didn't really cared for New Sun i just read it to get to Long Sun because i really liked that movie.
Spoiler: (having read Short Sun, the creatures in it just reinforce my mental image of LS).

>>23438882
>Keely likes conan and other masculine fantasy, he doesn't enjoy self insert edgelord
My man, Conan is literally a self-insert and you have to be a retard to actually not realize this. Read that story about where he is running after a briton in a cave, Cave of the Black Ones or something. Severian however, is far from a self-insert character. People who genuinely think this are honestly quite possibly too stupid for Wolfe because they, like Severian, cannot tell when they are being made a fool out of.

>>23449142
>Cave of the Black Ones
it's called People of the Dark.

>>23446517
>>23447728
>>23448574
Alright bros I'll give it another chance!

>>23448574
you read two whole series you didn't care to because one of them and some kind of alien movie ripoff have the idea of a generation ship in common?

>>23447663
"comic book" is an archaic as fuck term anyway. Literally means "book of comedy", because it's a throwback to the days when comics were "the funnies".
"Illustrated story" would be a lot more to the point.

>>23449142
I really don't get this perception of Severian as this cast iron badass and ladies man, who is designed for the reader to live through, as a fantasy.
Did we read the same book? Severian is an abused child who is alone and confused for most of his life.
The fact that he's only really good at killing things, because that's what he was raised to do, isn't "cool", it's sad.

>>23429626
The fact that you'd have to go back to before WW2 to find a fantasy author as good with language as Wolfe should be evidence enough that he's really really good.

All of the common criticisms of New Sun you see here are basically retards who tried reading it cause someone told them it was 'the Dark Souls of books' and they got filtered so bad by the pure fact of the English language at work that there was nothing left of them but salt.

Daily reminder that if Severian was a girl and Thecla a man everybody would say that their relationship is creepy and rapey,

>>23451848
Isn't that exactly the type of book women like to read?

>>23451781
It is sad. But his world and the people in it are even sadder. That's what makes him a "chad" by comparison in his world. His status as a torturer and eventual autarch are nothing to be sad about.

>>23451848
Don't see how you mean, and it is creepy, anyway. There's an undercurrent of "creepy" to all of Severians relationships because he's a stunted weirdo, and he doesn't get it.

>>23451797
Imagine thinking wolfe is a good writer
>The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand.....everything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy ground.
Wolfefags consider this deep and profound. Wolfefags consider this dreck "the greatest novel of the 20th century". Wolfefags unironically spout that this trash is better than proust. Wolfefags have converted to catholicism over reading a shitty mid tier sff novel.
even someone like robert e howards worst story drafts are ten times better than anything wolfe wrote

I remember there being articles that Wolfe's papers would be donated to the Norther Illinois University archive. Now I can't find anything on it except a podcaster referencing the same thing. Does anyone here have info on this?

Me and Jolenta.

>>23429583

Is there some website that explains the complete story of the new sun books? I don't understand it

>>23452400
What don't you get?

>>23452400
threads like these and urth.net for old world postings about his work.

>>23452399
I’ve always wondered what the backstory of this webm is

>>23452066
>olfefags consider this dreck "the greatest novel of the 20th century". Wolfefags unironically spout that this trash is better than proust
only one saying this here is you
read the books tubbo

>even heckin robert e howards worst heckin drafts are ten times better than anything wolfe wrote

opinion discarded

>>23452403

I want a detailed explanation of the entire story. I don't want to have to piece together the story from thousands of posts each only explain a tiny bit of the story.

>>23452906
Why?

>>23452939

because i don't have time to dig through thousands of posts

>>23452946
sad!

>>23452906
are you trying to avoid reading it?

>>23452906
You are interested in the wrong book

>>23429583
cat**lic :(

>>23452906
Wolfe isn't for you. It's not a difficult task to piece it together yourself and the book is enjoyable to read anyway, but if you're not willing to put in the minimum amount of effort then you won't get anything out this book. Find something else, plenty of books enjoy spoonfeeding you every detail. Sanderson is right up your alley. I'm not being rude but this is probably a waste of time for you with your attitude.

>>23454046
There are no cats in the novel.

What's the significance of Apu-Punchao in the story? I know he's the Conciliator but what are we supposed to take away from that part of the story?

>>23454431
have you read to the end of citadel? do you plan on reading urth of the new sun?

>>23454455
Read Citadel. Haven't read Urth yet but I will.

>>23454467
there a few clues in claw if you carefully read what happened in stone town. urth of the new sun basically spoon feeds you a lot of the questions you might have after finishing citadel.

>>23429583
Gene Wolfe cared for his fans way more than GRRM ever did.

Personally, the Latro books are my favorite Wolfe novels. They’re just a lot of fun.

>>23455595
Hi zealous-fun9181

>>23455595
Yeah, all five of them.

>>23454319
what about the beast-y people

>>23436006
Stuff happens all the time in Elric thoughbeit

>>23429583
someone whom future generations will regard as one of the greatest writers of his generation.

What was the madragora at the end?

>>23439892
>For some reason there's a handful of people here who brigade every time Wolfe is mentioned.
>handful
it's one complete deranged Bakkerfag, he does the same thing on /v/

>>23452066
>image thinking wolfe
Stopped reading there. Seethe infinitely.

>>23449142
I definitely think that some of Wolfe's own experiences are fitted into Severian's character, but it is majorly just unhappy things, like finding the girl in Thrax that is all fucked up. Reminded me a lot of a story my uncle told me about his time in the Middle East.

>>23456554
Failed clone of Typhon maybe. It has psychic abilities like Typhon, the mandragora plant looks like the mythological Typhon, mandragora = man drake = man dragon which is what the mythological Typhon is like with his serpent appendages, and Typhon says he wasn't born which is perhaps similar to the mandragora's unnatural origins.

>>23456554
A failed cold one. Male version of Mucor.

>>23451848
>erm... if it was completely different universe, this would be le bad!!!!
Men and women are different.

>>23429583
>Gene Wolfe is a...
good writer for an unreliable narrator

>>23432489
>It was the face of a child watching a brutal murder that stole her innocence.
is this real lmao

>>23446478
nightside is acually the most interesting part of Long Sun. it gets worse

>>23457556
fuck the tunnels, man

>>23457606
Tunnels are great, fag. The only boring parts are "war" and the female army chapters.

>>23457085
>American reading comprehension

>>23457556
correct

>>23457606
also correct

>>23457556
It doesn't start to get worse until a short ways into book 3 after the civil war begins.

so did he fuck Jolenta

>>23432109
>"We are a race of lovers"
>*Rapes U*

I can't tell if Bakker is a genius with his tie in to Gnostic ideas or if he's a total hack since his backdrop is just The Crusades:Pagan Edition

>>23458019
My money leans on the side of hack with cool ideas. Or needed an editor bad.

>>23458538
More of a narcissistic psued who self inserts himself as the handsome bull who's naturally perfect at everything

>>23457943
I thought so too. There are little pockets that are good, like when Silk is suicidal looking down at Typhon's Sim City creation. But overall it's way too much dialogue, many pointless pages where Wolfe is trying to get the sequence of events he wants to describe to line up. The whole chapter about manufacturing some talus could've been 100% cut.

Thankfully, all 3 Short Sun books were excellent, so it's worth reading Long Sun at least once.

>>23458597
Are you people just not interested in how taluses are born? That's disappointing.

>>23458690
is talus the robotank guarding blood's villa? I didn't really understand what that thing actually is. currently reading the first book of the long sun and i like it desu.

>>23458690
It's a robot, I know how a robot is made. Just because the characters are ignorant of how it's done doesn't make it interesting

>>23458749
But anon, don’t you want to learn about alloys and basic metalworking?

does anyone genuinely read these books and not think this is all just some retarded leather daddy gimp writing fanfic about his own sex dungeon experiences with his fat wife

>>23458896
You might be on to something.

>>23458896
No, that's Erikson

>>23458896
There is very little implicit sex in the cycle and the only explicit sex scene appears just in the Short Sun trilogy.

>>23436558
>cram in every idea from every science fantasy book

So it's like 13 Sentinels?

>>23458896
Not all of us are porn addicts, how is your transition going btw?

>>23457606
the tunnels were actually hellish to read. So much of those 4 books could have been cut for the better.

>>23458906
lmao

Why does the herdsman house turn green after Severian leaves it? Is the claw resurrecting the plants in the dirt or something?

>>23460187
Pretty much, though if you've read Urth of the New Sun you'll know that Severian's power is not from the claw but from his approaching sun.

>>23457948
He fucked her so many times he was practically falling over exhausted and Dorcas could tell just by looking at the two of them.

>>23458597
I see it as him trying to depict the chaos and confusion of what was happening during the fighting, because if you imagine Horn and his girlfriend being in the middle of that it would be difficult to accurately document everything.
And Short Sun is the same way, but for a different reason. Blue's Waters is a relatively straightforward narrative, then it starts to break down, and you can't tell me Return to the Whorl isn't just as messy and fragmented and confusing.

>>23457321
yes, that is brandon sanderson slop.

>>23460449
i mustve skipped over that part desu because i was in doubt

bump for gene.