/lit/ - Literature

>>23379248
>imperium europa
you really like this "white power" calque for your /his/-/pol/ crossbreed general thread huh?

>>23379272
the name of the thread is not contingent on your understanding of the concept behind it
If you want to understand how you can call something a combination of words that calls to (your) mind certain associations, I suggest you go read my responses in the last thread where I gave pointers to some of the philosophy and political texts underpinning the parallel I draw between a large enough historico-cultural entity and an empire

>https://pastebin.com/7sGN2tZa
Larp

>>23379248
I'm going to bed, anons, I'll post about the things from the book I want to discuss tomorrow morning, Broodbank raises some really interesting points

>>23379272
I wonder, can you elaborate why you think he's associating with white power when writing something like "imperium"? I don't associate the two, and I'm curious what the connection is, since I feel like you need to associate a word with the bad actors that appropriate it to give it such a connotation. Same with Christianity and the crusades (a gross misinterpretation of the Bible), you're better off judging Christianity based on the text itself rather than the actions of people who've misread it (this is just an example, please no Christianity discussion lmao)

>>23379303
unless you are actually a fascist you should avoid marketing as if you were a fascist

>>23379320
Well what does he mean by European Imperium? You'll have to excuse me for parsing that as European Empire, Europe Power, White Power, White Supremacy, etc. because that's what he is literally saying and those are all legitimate translations of his pseudo latin. He could have just called his group College of Western Studies since he wants to do western history and philosophy. But that sounds a little too soft right? So why go for the imagery of IMPERIVM EUROPAENORUM? What's that about? Am I stupid for noticing the obvious?

>>23379341
You forgot the EUROPÄISCHER WELTGEIST part

>>23379363
>WELTEUROPÄISCHER GEIST
I AM SORRY.

>>23379368
>>23379363
>>23379341
Samefagging is a sin stop it

>>23379363
>>23379375
I will decide when to declare mahaāryavada over the euroheimat, no matter what either of (You) say

Having followed the previous thread, my concern is that this would only result more boomer-tier conservatism and not affect any real difference in the respective volkgesit, zeitgeist or any related areas.

How do you assuage those concerns? Will you discuss works by Yockey for example? As some of what he wrote about is deeply connected to what you are attempting. Same as Thomas Carlyle and many others.

>>23379391
this is great, I'm like—OP is a bad attempt at amerimutt crypto-fascist organizing, and then an actual neo-fascist shows up and demands that the curriculum include 20th century American fascist apologetics to avoid being mistaken for mere conservatism, now we will wait for OP to admit I am correct about his project because he believes in no enemies to the right

>>23379388
>mahaāryavada
Lol anon can't into the most basic vowel sandhi

>>23379391
>Francis_Parker_Yockey.
Oh yeah I remember that guy. He wrote the nazi book 'Imperium', which happens to be the name OP choose for his general. What a coinkydink!

>>23379407
too busy being raced and bedpilled for that rajesh

>>23379403
I made no such demands. Hence my reluctance to post and derail the previous thread. If my point of view is not welcomed I see no benefit to forcibly inject it and will participate no further.

>>23379419
Imperium is an old term and an old word. To call the book National-Socialism is not correct. It is authoritarian, Fascistic and Spenglarian, sure. Though he did dedicate the book to Hitler and refer to him several times as the Hero of WW2.

>>23379462
>To call the book National-Socialism is not correct. It is authoritarian, Fascistic and Spenglarian, sure. Though he did dedicate the book to Hitler and refer to him several times as the Hero of WW2
is this some kind of fascist trotskyism? lmao

>>23379434
>a + ā = ā
>mahāryavada
It's not hard

>>23379521
i feel i was not only close but deserving of my cigar, preferably rolled by people of the proper varna

>>23379248
what other books are going to be read?

>>23379391
>>23379462
>more boomer-tier conservatism
the concept behind the whole movement is not conservative
in fact, I think it will be hated by the left AND the right in all of their forms because it aims to establish its meaning past the boundaries each of the pre-existing political ideologies have set in regards to specific aspects of culture and the individual's experience of his cultural heritage and his own personal history embedded in it (in other words, the politico-cultural systems are too philosophically sparse to account for the totality of culture and its sub-divisions)
to be clear - this is not a fascist movement, nor a communist or a centrist one regardless of what works we read
and we ARE going to read works which will not be approved of by people who are too attached to current political divisions (on any "side")
I genuinely appreciate your willingness to communicate openly and clearly, especially the fact that you respect others enough not to push things they are not interested in on them
if you ever see us reading a book that falls within your purview, I'd be glad if you joined the discussion
and, of course, you are always welcome along for this new journey we are embarking on
>>23380584
the next book is
>The Greeks and Greek Civilization, by Jacob Burckhardt
the next one after that I am still vacillating on
the primary reason the list isn't uploaded is because it's really labor intensive to figure out what books should be on it and more often than not decisions get reversed as I learn more and find new information
at one point I'll upload it in its incomplete variant and just update it every once in a while, but not yet
>>23379248
I'm going to wait for more anons to wake up so we can start the discussion!

>>23379248
this may seem like a retarded question that may waste your time, so you don't have to answer this. What are your thoughts on harold bloom's 'western canon' and 'how to read and why'?

bump, love europe, hope this gains some traction that isn't spastics trying to look cool

>>23380838
it's not a retarded question at all, anon
I am going to be borrowing from the Western canon when I am constructing the literature list, but there's a reason we started with history first and it's that there is no good enough, chronological, up to date list of how to read through European history, specifically world-European history, which includes adjacent areas ('adjacent' changing its meaning across the ages)
to quote from the current book we're reading
>"The edges alter the contents"
the Western canon will inform the literature, some from his list of authors, some from the full list, but it must be noted that there are too many works in his full list as it stands, especially since I want us to go through history and philosophy, not just literature, so I'm doing research on what to keep and what to leave for our expanded list
I also realize as I'm saying this that we are going to need a name/names for our lists for ease of reference

>>23379248
Let's begin, shall we?
The first chapter is a very good explanation of why and how archaeology and its adjacent sciences were used to study the past. It's rife with specific examples which demonstrate the fidelity with which we are able to see into the past, and also the large holes between these 'islands of evidence', what I would call the narrative holes that prevent us from linking together the facts into a coherent representation of what life was like in those conditions.
The chapter also provides examples which can be used to demonstrate to people skeptical about what we can even learn about the distant past, a la "how can a piece of pottery from the dirt matter/you clearly can't know all of this from a bunch of earthenware" (here, the clay analysis from the pottery found in the Uluburun shipwreck is a good foil)
What really interests me is Chapter 2.
Picrel is something that I had never considered. The variability in rain, wind and terrain in the Mediterranean is staggering, and it is definitely painting a less idyllic picture of what I have seen for short intervals irl and what I imagined when reading about the ancient Greeks. In fact, I'm starting to understand why civilization as we know it first developed adjacent to the Aegenean as opposed to anywhere else. I used to think the conditions that would be a driver for innovation and change would be cold weather/lack of resources, but now I see that it's unpredictability which forces adaptivity and innovation, and the (eastern) Mediterrenean is the perfect place for that. One can also trace the origin of all the raiding the Myceneans did - in a land where you cannot be guaranteed food or resources in the future despite having them NOW, raiding is the perfect solution - instead of having to adapt to each unpredictable change as it happened, you let others react to the changed circumstances and take what they make. This frees you from having to be in a constant state of "reaction", which I imagine for small communities was a large strain, but what's more is you, the raider, become the intersection point for all the resources and technological/cultural innovations others arrive at separately, so you begin to accrue those over time.
At least that's what I am imagining so far, the next chapters will prove whether this hypothesis is correct.

>>23379248
THREAD CORRECTION: In today's thread we discuss not only Chapter 1&2 but also 3&4 AS WE READ THEM
I realize as I'm writing down my notes that I want to discuss things as I come across them, so in order to spare us time by making a gap thread where we catch up, we are just going to mix two assignments in this thread so we can move on cleanly with the next one
we live and we learn

>>23379248
THREAD CORRECTION: In today's thread we discuss not only Chapter 1&2 but also 3&4 AS WE READ THEM
I realize now, as I'm writing my notes down, that I want to discuss things when I come across them
in order not to waste time with a gap thread where we catch up, we are just going to mix two assignments in THIS thread so we can move on cleanly with the next one
we live and we learn

>>23380882
>there is no good enough, chronological, up to date list of how to read through European history, specifically world-European history,
i find this extremely hard to believe, that nobody anywhere has any sort of syllabus on western/european history, i guess it must be an extremely esoteric topic that isn't talked about outside of your discord in between sessions of Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis

>>23380777
>the concept behind the whole movement is not conservative
There is nothing you have said to convince me of this.

>in fact, I think it will be hated by the left AND the right in all of their forms because it aims to establish its meaning past the boundaries each of the pre-existing political ideologies have set in regards to specific aspects of culture and the individual's experience of his cultural heritage and his own personal history embedded in it.
This is a terribly run on sentence. But it is empty of most meaning. Given what you have said in your OP it is entirely supported by modern conservatives and will be rejected by the Left as pure reactionary thinking, but what is worse is that it is boring reactionary thinking. It does not seek to create or build anew, but dredge up from the past that which has been forgotten. This is not a ignoble goal in itself, but it is not the keystone of a movement that transcends the Western Liberal Democratic system of Left vs Right.

>(in other words, the politico-cultural systems are too philosophically sparse to account for the totality of culture and its sub-divisions)
Breadth of an ocean, depth of a puddle springs to mind here.

>to be clear - this is not a fascist movement, nor a communist or a centrist one regardless of what works we read
Saying it is not X does not make it so anymore than saying it is Y makes it so.

>and we ARE going to read works which will not be approved of by people who are too attached to current political divisions (on any "side")
This is conservative thinking. Nobody cares if you read books. You are not provoking anything if you read books from the other side. Be it Mein Kampf or the Hungry Hungry Handbook.

>and, of course, you are always welcome along for this new journey we are embarking on
Sadly the journey has been made many times by many people, there does not appear to be any new stops.

That said, i wish you luck.

>>23381490
welcome back, retard-san

>>23381693
calling other people retarded while you are busy re-inventing the third positionist wheel because you're too illiterate to know of other attempts at the fascist historiography you want to have in place of generic western historical survey literature with whiggish characteristics is the height of 20 year-old amerimutt idpol pseud drivel

>>23381490
>>23381725
Anon youre not supposed to burst his bubble like this. Without the delusion of doing 'meaningful' work to help him cope with his life, he will likely hurt himself or others.

>>23381725
>>23381739
Meanwhile there is a literal flat Earth thread. You are a samefagging joke.

From Chapter 3
interesting symbolism for one of the locations where hominins might have first glimpsed the Mediterranean 1.8mya

>>23379248
new pastebin won't be up today, it's taking longer to put together
>>23381490
if you know of any syllabi that will be useful as a foundation (or outright give us a structure), I'd be very thankful
>>23381549
I wish you luck, too, anon
>>23381725
that >>23381693 is not me
>>23381739
>Without the delusion of doing 'meaningful' work to help him cope with his life, he will likely hurt himself or others.
nonsense, I'll be doing this irl either way because at the very least it will be useful to me (and a couple of people from the university), but I've been lurking here for a while and since /lit/ has given me a lot over the years, I want to give something back
if these generals don't survive until I clean up the concepts this whole thing is based on I'll just come back when that work has been finished irl (and hopefully I have the chart/tracking site up by then) and try again
I genuinely believe there are enough people on here who would be interested in becoming better through gaining knowledge of the history and culture which led to the world they have to navigate every day

>>23379320
I like the name but I also like romantic nationalism in general. It's over the top edgy and the connection to fascism or at least Roman authoritarianism with the word Imperium is pretty direct. Roman imperium is authority given from Rome which was represented by a fasces. If you hold the fasces your word is the word of Rome.

>>23382036
NTA but Harvard Classics volume 50 contains a decent reading list for history of western civilization. https://archive.org/details/harvardclassics50eliouoft

>>23382036
>>23382117
yes the real challenge is the overwhelming volume of scholarship on European history you would need to curate for your self-education project
there's no subject you couldn't spend years on in the span of Europe from the Minoan palaces to the British relinquishing of Hong Kong, and even if you can cut it down to a reasonable framework for a layperson there wouldn't be any sort of enlightenment from it except perhaps a sense that we are overdue for the next conflagration, one which will make short work of entire classrooms of young men

>>23382117
thanks, anon, I do know about that one and it's "history of civilization" suffers from the same gaps as other curricula from that period
in fact, even most modern curricula tend to either focus too heavily on primary sources or on contemporary reserach, and a lot of them tend to be either too narrow or too biased (not politically)
until 25 years ago the Western world was torn in two, and if you want to understand how this came about and what makes capitalism capitalism and socialism socialism you have to start following the thread backward and by the time you get to Marx's "Class Struggles in France 1848-1850", you realize you've been living with the idea of class distinctions as a given and you can't really imagine and understand what came before the capitalist mode of production, so you have to read Marc Bloch's "Feudal Society", but you also want to understand how the industrial revolution changed the face of art so you read Benjamin's "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction", which leads you to the realization that you don't k now how art was perceived before the current age and that you know nothing about it, and so you keep going and make it all the way to classical greece and even pierce into the Bronze Age and prehistory
as >>23382167 notes, there is an incredible amount of scholarship and works you have to curate for such a project, but there is a way
the core list will take years to get through, but regardless of weaknesses in certain ages/areas, it will offer a panorama of the most important events, concepts, cultural developments and works in order to shake one loose from the preconceptions upon which he operates
most importantly, a way forward can be seen and forged from old ideas re-actualized in a world they were not meant for, but can yield meaningful new interactions in (think how the French Revolution styled itself after the Roman republic, but in a context which yielded totally different interactions between the ideas and the people and birthed the current age)
>>23382167
>there's no subject you couldn't spend years on
true, which is why it's world-European history and not simply world history, and which is why it was necessary to rip off Colomer's analysis of what makes an empire and empire and apply his definitions to the historico-cultural totality of Europe
the result is the perception of the "invisible empire" - Europe's cultural empire, complete with asymmetric links of its 'provinces' to the center (the origin of Western thought in ancient Greece), ill-defined borders, and a unity in diversity
I seek to establish a core list that traces the thread of this common cultural heritage in its most skeletal form, then curate an expanded list for those who have the time or the need
finally, knowledge of the individual heritage (that of a specific nation embedded within the empire) falls to the individual himself to pursue

>>23382201
once one perceives this "invisible empire", he realizes it is trans-national, temporally stable, ideologically unbound, it is the great unifier so many have sought and continue seeking today, and it faces very few existential threats
for its inheritors it offers a chance to belong, yet remain distinct

>>23382201
>the result is the perception of the "invisible empire"
all this work to develop a syllabus of neofascist identitarian esoterica just to end up with something as obvious and blatant as NATO?

>>23382281
Why are you like this? What's wrong with you?

>>23382281
Genuinely >>23382354 this.
How is it possible for a man to think only in words loaded into his mind by internet discussions of The Current Thing^TM?

>>23382354
>there's a secret european cultural empire which is the engine of world-historical world history in which the provinces are assymmetrical mysteries and unknown topologies
>uhhh you have to read a decade of history books to notice it though
>no grandpa i'm not just doing clash of civilizations but for zoomers

>>23382378
It's really obvious what the other anon is doing here, and that your best defense of the nth attempt at this sort rebranding is some 2014-tier "it's the current year" mockery of sjw rhetoric really shows there's something to be said for the end of history, at least on an ideological level. I am calling a spade a spade and you are getting all incredulous as if I needed to respect YOUR pronouns or something. Which third position or fourth political theory are we going to arrive at after doing all this study of the esoteric neopanhellenocracy?

>>23382380
He's saying Europe exists and you're finding some way to get triggered by that through associations.
Rome is a good place to start conceptually because their power came from this idea of united imperium. The devoted solder was not really obeying orders, he was acting as the hand of a united body.

>>23382420
>He's saying Europe exists and you're finding some way to get triggered by that through associations.
>Rome is a good place to start conceptually because their power came from this idea of united imperium. The devoted solder was not really obeying orders, he was acting as the hand of a united body.
Are you just dense or something? You're offended I compared this "project" to fascism and insisting that Roman legions acting as the limbs of the principate is the ideal model society, in the same fucking post. You ARE a fascist. Or maybe a super-fascist but I doubt you've read enough to get the joke.

>>23382405
>>23382444
You are either a really good troll or the stupidest person I've seen on /lit/ in a long time. Either way, don't bother with him, OP.

>>23382444
Understanding the history of Europe is not fascism just because you have to talk about Rome and the "Indo-Europeans".

>>23382281
Is everything a fascism? Because if it is i must be blind.

>>23382457
>>23382462
Are you missing the part about forming military units and establishing soldier-colonies as a way of pacifying conquered peoples being praised as the ideal social structure? Wanting that in modern times is fascism. The historical fascists wanted that, they were open about that, that was their modus operandi.
If you're too dumb to even deconstruct the idea of fascism and advocate for its parts without keeping the label, the least you could do in the name of intellectual honesty is be frank with your beliefs instead of getting upset whenever it's pointed out that calling your adult education program EVROPA IMPERIVM is the smoke to a fire.

>>23382489
holy kek

>>23382489
Nothing there is unique to Fascism, or any of its variants. Hell, some variants of Fascism had no such soldier-colonies, or any kind at all.

It's like you not aware of what Fascism is, but have the idea it involves militancy.

>>23382444
>You ARE a fascist. Or maybe a super-fascist but I doubt you've read enough to get the joke.
OP should read Evola and just substitute 'hidden empire' with 'hidden tradition'
unironically

>>23382514
You're right, not all fascist states were able to conquer territory and do industrial-scale settler colonialism to make up for centuries of lost time vs the British, French, and Russian empires, which were themselves of course violent colonial enterprises which could have been mistaken for fascism by a less keen observer! Would you say real fascism has never been tried? It's not some militaristic authoritarian movement where people are wewuzing about the glorious past and interested in building up capacity for state violence to wield it against internal and foreign enemies? They're just somewhat taller Boy Scouts?

>>23382550
See that's what I am trying to figure out here, is this some 20 year-old independently reverse engineering an alt-alt-right from lurking but not reading, and thinking he is brilliant for having discovered these concepts, or is he already aware of all of this stuff (even leftists under 40 have heard of these names by now) and just plastering over it in the hopes that will be a TOS-compliant entryway? Either way it comes across as juvenile and larpy make your not-fascist study group identity evropa imperivm

>>23382555
>Would you say real fascism has never been tried?
Of course it has been tried and will no doubt be tried again. Everything else you have said is just empty bullshit and kike-kvetching. I am willing to have a discussion over this with you, but I am convinced you are incapable of one.

>>23382573
I am not really interested in discussing the finer points of theoretical fascisms with parallel universe trotskyists who think they'd make a better Mussolini of they were given a chance. I just find it funny that our EVROPA IMMORTA friend is either oblivious to his own references or thinks he can gaslight anyone into thinking he isn't a fascist

>>23382598
We all know the reason that Communists hate Fascists. One is founded exclusively by jews and their shabbos, the other is predicated partly on the utter destruction of the same parties.

>>23382571
Or it's neither, because if you had bothered to read and understand the words OP is writing, if you had actually read any contemporary political philosophy or even googled the name OP keeps mentioning, you would not have such retarded takes. Josep Colomer is a guy who is a member of the Academia Europae (where OP probably found inspiration for the name of the thread) who has written extensively about the distinction between state and empire in the modern context. You are a fool for wasting everybody's time with your abysmal reading comprehension and overall ignorance. I think anon might be on to something with his take on culture.

>>23382618
well if OP doesn't intend to form a fascist study group he'll need to change his livery because that's who is showing up

>>23382598
>theoretical fascisms with parallel universe trotskyists
Are you just a fucking idiot?

>>23382627
>Academia Europae (where OP probably found inspiration for the name of the thread)
do you see how referring to your group as an academy and not a mannerbund might carry different connotations, or are you a retard?

>>23382635
one anon tried to tell me fascism was non-militaristic, so yes its some kind of trotsky fascism he wants to have where you argue against the applied version of the ideology from your distant couch; I don't care about getting applied fascism right because I'm not a fascist critic of fascism, I'm merely observing its calling cards being spilled like spaghetti

>>23382632
>a fascist study group
I would be interested in this.

>>23382632
And tell me, what will fascists find when they show up? A concept for culture which is of no use to them, an OP who stated earlier he doesnt want their opinions around and a group of people reading about pottery found in the Levant.

>>23382646
>yes anon i am a fuckin idiot

>>23382649
>a group of people reading about pottery found in the Levant

Literal fascism.

>>23382649
>>23382656
>pottery in the Levant
ok so why not call yourself the Haram Potters?

>>23379248
I'll post some thoughts on chapter 3 tomorrow and finish changing the pastebin
>>23382627
thank you, anon, for the support
you are correct that that is where I got the inspiration from, mixed with the concept of cultural empire that I'm working on irl
in hindsight, I should've started these threads when that was done, that's kind of why I went with New Aristocracy first but I figured "fuck it, I will do it on the way"
>>23382632
I will not change the "livery" just because it might attract the wrong people at first and I am not suddenly going to abandon what I've been working on outside of these threads or rename it because some spastic on the internet can't into philosophy
if fascists try to co-opt it they will find it is useless to them and their ideology (which I profoundly disagree with)
you are giving my colleagues a good laugh, so thank you, anon
>>23382647
this is not it, I'm afraid
>>23382649
precisely!
good night, anon, I'll see you tomorrow

>>23382489
>Are you missing the part about forming military units and establishing soldier-colonies as a way of pacifying conquered peoples being praised as the ideal social structure?
Yes, can you quote what you're talking about? Mongols got their power from using hunting tactics for war which meant hunters were training for war all their lives. Am I presenting that as an ideal? Is getting some romantic enjoyment out of attempting to immerse yourself in that idea mongol supremacy?

>>23382688
>I am not suddenly going to abandon what I've been working on outside of these threads or rename it because some spastic on the internet can't into philosophy
fucking OBLITERATED

>>23382696
>>23382420
>Rome is a good place to start conceptually because their power came from this idea of united imperium. The devoted solder was not really obeying orders, he was acting as the hand of a united body.
Such a great concept, obedience to state authority so reflexive it can't even be considered obeying an outside force but acting from shared principles as one great bundle, bound together as it were by blood and common ground, this is the good place to start for the not-fascist study group about Levantine pottery
>>23382688
>I am not suddenly going to abandon what I've been working on outside of these threads or rename it because some spastic on the internet can't into philosophy
What philosophy? You are doing a history syllabus.

>>23382721
>Such a great concept
Powerful which caused it to be influential and the historical grounding for the Roman Church and European nations.
Are you a woman or trans btw? Low t?

>>23382728
>if you aren't fascist you're unmanly
wow that's a really good point, you sure showed me you aren't advocating for fascism

>>23382721
>>23382646
>>23382598
>>23382571
>>23382555
>>23382489

>>23382734
So you really are the stereotypical illiterate woman injecting herself into things she doesn't understand on any level. You sincerely believe you're bravely standing up to hecking fascism by undermining the ability for reasonable to people to think and communicate. It's a fascinating phenomena but getting extremely stale.

>>23382776
what's more likely, shit you made up to deflect from EUROPA KAISERTHUM being an obvious far-right leaning concept, or EUROPA KAISERTHUM being an obvious far-right leaning concept?

>>23382794
>It is far right to want to deepen your understanding and knowledge of your history and heritage

It is getting so very tiring.

>>23382812
what's the point of denying your politics and then posting a merchant meme anyway? seems very low effort

>>23382819
I have repeatedly stated I am a Fascist and/or sympathetic to the systems around it. What you have described as Fascist is literally every natural in a nation.y4kxkh

>>23382794
So brave.

>>23379328
>marketing

>>23382721
>You are doing a history syllabus.
But anon-- He is starting with the Greeks! Thats such an unique angle I have never considered before.

>>23379248
good morning, anons!
let's see what we can read today
>>23382794
I'll get to you in a minute, I'm having fun trying to break it down for somebody who clearly doesn't understand the fact that the association you make with certain words does not obligate others to do the same, nor that the intention behind the use of the word is what you ascribe to it
I am 80% convinced you're a troll thinking he's just "bantering", but it provides a good opportunity for me to sharpen my arguments

>>23379248
this would explain gaps in the record that many people find odd, but more importantly, this shows that the cognitive capacity of these late hominins was still really small - the climate cycle time frames are large enough that they should have been able to adapt, and these "local extinctions" point to very poor adaptability
it makes the following cognitive revolution seem that much more impressive and strange

>>23383590
>somebody who clearly doesn't understand the fact that the association you make with certain words does not obligate others to do the same, nor that the intention behind the use of the word is what you ascribe to it
So there's several options here. One is to simply ignore me and other people who will have the same observation and say we're just stupid, and double down on insisting there's nothing political or ideological about your choice of what to call your passion project you've worked very hard on and believe is somehow important to educating and enculturing minds, and that people who think otherwise based on the verbiage are totally mistaken and should ignore obvious signals because of some essay length explanation. Another is the sort of hairsplitting fascist deconstruction / trotskyism the other anon(s) were doing where you say fascism is just a totally normative thing for all societies so it's natural to agree with it, that it is a non-violent peace movement somehow distorted outside of Romania, other thin apologetics framed as a critique from the right etc., such that being called a fascist does not matter to you (protip: it should), none of which is going to convince someone who thinks you sound like a fascist... because disarming the accusation by going after the label itself and not the contents is the stuff of legalese wrangling and not a real rejection. It works in the sense that Amazon will sell you copies of Evola but not Confederate flags, but of course, everyone knows Evola is not neutral or moderate ideologically. Lastly I suppose you could admit you don't believe in the postwar configuration of Europe and are digging into European history to form a rival identity to the prevailing one, and knowingly shrug at being called a fascist, "well everyone calls everyone a fascist these days huh."

>>23384110
>My feelings is this is Fascism, i will not provide any specifics or reasons beyond invoking empty negloisms and vague generalities

>>23384141
What do you think, does a meme format originated by a page called "Counter-Signal Memes for Fashy Goys" have anything to do with fascism or the far-right more generally? If there's nothing wrong with fascism why do you need to lie and misdirect about whether you're a fascist and insist that your opponent is dumb for noticing you present like one?

>>23384110
welcome back, anon, I'm genuinely glad you are here
what you raise here are important points, so first let's deal with the easiest part
>Another is the sort of hairsplitting fascist deconstruction [...] Evola is not neutral or moderate ideologically
I am honestly and openly saying I am not trying to engage in any kind of fascist deconstruction or trotskyism, I find anyone engaging in this (not just for fascism but for socialism/communism, too) to be wasting their time with historical dead ends, it's literally just busywork for some people to feel content
>One is to simply ignore me and other people who will have the same observation and say we're just stupid, [...] and should ignore obvious signals because of some essay length explanation.
I do not think people who make this observation are stupid, I think that a good observation will include surveying the contents as well, including the intent behind the use of certain terminology as well the purpose of its use (we will come back to this later)
and finally, most importantly:
>Lastly [...] "well everyone calls everyone a fascist these days huh."
You are skirting the truth here, I am "digging into European history to form a rival identity to the prevailing one", but it's not because I don't believe in the postwar configuration of Europe, because I am not addressing the constituent states as organizational/political/administrative structures (these are incredibly complex and while they are influenced by culture, there are many other variables as well)
I think a new identity does not need to be forged for Europe or any other part of the world so much as revealed, which is what my work is focused on
I wasn't trying to be confusing or spouting complicated words earlier when I was talking about asymmetries and provinces and boundaries, I was trying to accurately explain what I mean
the inspiration for my work (if not the exact origin) is picrel, another book of his called "Empires versus states" where he outlines 4 traits which separate them, and none of them have anything to do with fascism or any contemporary notion of what an empire "should be" (in fact, in his analysis a modern state is a much more fascist structure)
When it comes to world cultures, they are rightfully sub-divided into specific regions/time frames/ethnic groups, etc., but I have always felt there is something, some way in which they can be connected into a superstructure
so with some reworking and specification for the cultural sphere, it is possible to unify otherwise disparate cultural strands into an empire (a uniting empire that does not seek homogeny from its constituent parts, but in fact it thrives on their differentiation)
I firmly believe language is redeemable because it is alive, and all terminology can be reclaimed (if necessary, or if desired)
the better thing is to attempt to reclaim empire/ imperium and use it for my own ends than leave it forever stuck in linguistic limbo because of fascists

>>23384224
forgot picrel

>>23384203
>What do you think, does a meme format originated by a page called "Counter-Signal Memes for Fashy Goys" have anything to do with fascism or the far-right more generally?
Are you really putting forward the position that some meme formats are inherently Fascistic? That even when used in a different way they still are imbued with some form of Ur-Fascism? I hope you are, as that may be the most rediculous position i have read all year.

>>23384241
>doesn't know what I'm referring to
it's been years since it was a thing but that's where that format came from, meme page run by alt right podcasters mocking smug libtards
>>23384224
>I wasn't trying to be confusing or spouting complicated words earlier when I was talking about asymmetries and provinces and boundaries, I was trying to accurately explain what I mean
>the inspiration for my work (if not the exact origin) is picrel, another book of his called "Empires versus states" where he outlines 4 traits which separate them, and none of them have anything to do with fascism or any contemporary notion of what an empire "should be" (in fact, in his analysis a modern state is a much more fascist structure)
so that's actually the first thing your proposed group ought to be reading, not starting with linear B or whatever
the history is not going to speak for itself and end up at the point Colomer is making or the questions he wants to answer
>>23384228
simply looking at the titles here, him being a published and awarded European academic, and not being aware of any synopses it sounds like he is concerned with the very European question of what purpose their individual countries have anymore (what can a Spain, Austria, Greece, Ireland, Belgium, Latvia, or Finland really "do" anymore in the sense of being independent and sovereign? A France, Germany, or Italy has more latitude in international affairs but even they are restrained by being part of this idea of Europe) ... Global Insitutions Rule the World, Uncertain Fate of the Sovereign State... the European Empire. I don't think he is a fascist no, but there are legitimate question(s) for Europeans to (urgently) ponder as to what a united Europe looks like at the top and how it would then operate at its sublevels... the liberum veto wielded by Hungary, which is full of Russian investments, is clearly damaging to the political integrity of "Europe" and not being used to protect say, local cultural or political autonomy on given issues, but actually undermining the bloc-wide foreign policy and relations with large adversaries at least from a realism perspective. So these are good questions, what powers are reserved to the satraps of the European empire, should they be things like zoning laws, architecture policies, subsidies for national language media vs the inevitable tide of English as the working language, or will the European "Empire" seriously allow these sorts of local obstructionist divisions to persist on matters of engagement with the non- or extra European world, even related to security questions, on behalf of investors and actors from those places coopting local authorities?
but these are things Colomer's titles might get us to think about because they don't come across as charged with already taken larpist symbolism

>>23384290
>so that's actually the first thing your proposed group ought to be reading, not starting with linear B or whatever
they'll have to read my work, which repurposes Colomer's to suit the cultural sphere and expands, reworks some parts, but my work is not done, but I named the thread after the concept anyway because it will become clear with time and I want to get going with constructing the lists and start reading chronologically
at one point, people who join will just be able to read this in the pastebin (hopefully a separate site by then) and find Colomer front and center in the references (as this will be formatted appropriately for publication)
now, having covered all this, I am going to continue with the threads and the reading assignments while I work on my concepts, though now I'll try to upload something workable more quickly in order to avoid any such future misunderstandings
>but these are things Colomer's titles might get us to think about because they don't come across as charged with already taken larpist symbolism
I think at this point you can at least concede that if I had called the thread "European Empire" instead of "Imperium Europa" the overall reception would be the same and some people would still get fascist overtones
as for the rest of what you said, those are all extremely relevant questions that are not easy to ask (due to the tendency of people chimping out instead of discussing them), let alone answer, and I believe they will become relevant to this 'movement' I'm trying to start even though it is firmly rooted in culture and history first (hopefully, that moment is still a ways away)
I actually truly appreciate your presence here as you have helped me figure out my timelines and what I need to address first, I just think you came across as retarded in many of your earlier posts because what your position seemed to amount to was "these are the associations I have with the words you use, and either you concede that you're fascist or you have to rebrand" and that made many people (rightfully) mad because that IS a retarded position
but now I think we understand each other better and it is obvious that is not your position, unless you truly do disagree that some terms are irredeemable

>>23384290
>so that's actually the first thing your proposed group ought to be reading, not starting with linear B or whatever
they'll have to read my work, which repurposes Colomer's to suit the cultural sphere and expands, reworks some parts, but my work is not done
I named the thread after the concept anyway because it will become clear with time and I want to get going with constructing the lists and start reading chronologically
at one point, people who join will just be able to read this in the pastebin (hopefully a separate site by then) and find Colomer front and center in the references (as this will be formatted appropriately for publication)
now, having covered all this, I am going to continue with the threads and the reading assignments while I work on my concepts, though now I'll try to upload something workable more quickly in order to avoid any such future misunderstandings
>but these are things Colomer's titles might get us to think about because they don't come across as charged with already taken larpist symbolism
I think at this point you can at least concede that if I had called the thread "European Empire" instead of "Imperium Europa" the overall reception would be the same and some people would still get fascist overtones
as for the rest of what you said, those are all extremely relevant questions that are not easy to ask (due to the tendency of people chimping out instead of discussing them), let alone answer, and I believe they will become relevant to this 'movement' I'm trying to start even though it is firmly rooted in culture and history first (hopefully, that moment is still a ways away)
I actually truly appreciate your presence here as you have helped me figure out my timelines and what I need to address first, I just think you came across as retarded in many of your earlier posts because what your position seemed to amount to was "these are the associations I have with the words you use, and either you concede that you're fascist or you have to rebrand" and that made many people (rightfully) mad because that IS a retarded position
but now I think we understand each other better and it is obvious that is not your position, unless you truly do disagree that some terms are irredeemable

>>23384290
>it's been years since it was a thing but that's where that format came from, meme page run by alt right podcasters mocking smug libtards

So does that make the meme itself a fascist? Is picrel a fascist too?

>>23384332
>think at this point you can at least concede that if I had called the thread "European Empire" instead of "Imperium Europa" the overall reception would be the same and some people would still get fascist overtones
I think it's a difficult term to recover and has a tremendously poisoned semantic effect outside of people who like video games. Consider the Chinese foreign policy and its deliberate self-expressions of intent. China does not refer to itself as the Chinese Empire in English, rather it has some language it got from westernizing Meiji Japanese scholars later modified into being the "zhonghua minzu" or basically Chinese nation, because if it just defaults to the Han ethnic group or calls itself a Han empire it can't claim to legitimately rule the Mongols, Tibetans, Turkics, residual Jurchens, etc., so these are all retroactively declared to be Chinese. And so by this sinified concept of risorgimento we necessarily get to Chinese irredentism, and the demand to reintegrate Taiwan and also control the seas around China, which have historically carried diseases like Britain, Portugal, Japan, and the United States into Chinese territory. A strong enough China would also demand concessions from Russia, Mongolia, former Soviet Central Asia etc., because the Russian far east and its environs are sparsely populated, underdeveloped, and full of resources, and the argument they belong to China is somewhat "natural" if you are following the idea that places and peoples historically under Chinese influence or direct rule are members of a Chinese nation. The soft version of this is the Belt and Road, and China already has a 99 year lease on Sri Lanka's shiny new port, (and they even use Buddhism diplomatically in the countries where it is relevant) but how much more of a jewel would it be to own the trans siberian railroad, or to lease Vladivostok? But this is not imperialism or an empire—that would be the gross European behavior of exploiting your neighbors and shipping all their raw materials back to Europe, doing racism, undermining traditional customs, etc. China is a more cooperative partner so they claim, allowing local authority so long as that authority allows Chinese interests. I think people are very familiar with Russia's insistence it is non-imperialist so no need to elaborate on that example. But in both cases, why not call these empires? Why do they not self identify as empires? Is it just because of their, for lack of a better term, communist heritage? And such a heritage, I am sure you are aware, has also colored Western academic culture going back decades, the universities are always critical of Europe and "the West" from a left-leaning perspective (even though universities are government funded corporations that produce an ideological governing/managerial class which itself constitutes a miniture empire). Empire is a slur, and the most powerful people dislike it.

>>23384332
>>23384417
>words words words
>surely if we can just agree on the right words the world will be a better place!
Get real retards. Ditch diggers produce more value than this endless sterile discussion or 'movement' ever will, on both a material and spiritual level.

>>23384448
>Ditch diggers produce more value
only if they toss you in

g-guys? the book is pretty good

>>23384562
Ill be honest with ya. Im not gonna read a generic history book from some random guy about a subject I already know just to have somebody to talk to. If you produce work of your own, then post that. Ill gladly offer constructive criticism or pose clarifying questions if I fail to understand. I'm all for new takes but you are going about in a extremely roundabout way.

>>23384417
well presented, well argued
>I am sure you are aware, has also colored Western academic culture going back decades, the universities are always critical of Europe and "the West" from a left-leaning perspective (even though universities are government funded corporations that produce an ideological governing/managerial class which itself constitutes a miniture empire). Empire is a slur, and the most powerful people dislike it.
I am fully aware of this, and I know it is going to be an uphill (if not currently impossible) battle, one of the reasons I'm even trying is that I'm seeing encouraging signs in the academia groups I'm involved with irl, but we will see
I'll be hard at work on my own essay, but in the meantime I am going to keep up the threads, because aside from this long debate about its name, I really want to just read through a bunch of history and talk to people about it
>>23384562
I'm glad you like it, anon
>>23384665
that's not me, and I'll be looking forward to critique when I do post my work, it's probably going to come as an essay draft pdf and until then I'll just post a simpler, revised pastebin that summarizes some key points from our discussion

>>23384665
you just made me realize I should probably have a short paragraph in the main thread about why we're reading this specific book (this is not a generic book about the Mediterranean prehistory, it's one of the fullest, up to date, and most comprehensive looks at the period)

>>23379248
in preparation for tomorrow's thread
is anyone trying to read along? I don't expect so, I expect more people to come for Burckhardt's Greeks, but if anyone is reading now, do tell if we're going too fast/slow, if there need to be extra materials with the book (I find it almost entirely self-contained)
someone correct me, but I believe there were people interested in this initiative because of its self-improvement aspect, right?

>>23385421
I'm reading it, but definitely not per the assignment. It's not that it's too fast, I'm reading other stuff as well, and I also have to work. Its a good initiative, OP, I'll hop in one of the threads when I read by something I want to discuss. I'm sure other anons will too. I personally like the whole "try and do better" aspect, maybe if you put more of that in the main thread text? I dunno

>>23385617
I'm glad you're with us, anon, and thank you
>I personally like the whole "try and do better" aspect, maybe if you put more of that in the main thread text?
I've been thinking that, too, I realize I got sidetracked and shifted the focus onto the name and the conceptual part of my idea rather than the "action" part, so I'll bring it back to that
I might've jumped the gun with the reading assignment, and if that's so I'll shift the generals back to more open discussion until I assemble much better resources to offer
I'll curate some short, interesting essays in the meantime

Updating everyone: the most recent edition of /clg/ seems back on track with only Greek and Latin posting. Hopefully it lasts. Let us know if you need anything for the initiative.

>>23379248
Europa needs to be in the genitive. Last thread you made was correct.

>>23386269
Europaeum is acceptable too. As it is it reads "Europe Empire," which is awkward.

>>23386269
>>23386318
oh yeah, we will be back to the correct one for the next thread, thank you for the help! I'll definitely need help soon, so I'll visit you guys

>>23379341
>So why go for the imagery of IMPERIVM EUROPAENORUM? What's that about? Am I stupid for noticing the obvious?
>uses v in imperium but u in "europaenorum" which doesnt even exist
What a retard you are. No wonder you are larping on /lit/. Most likely not even European either. Virgin retard

>>23382489
Stop arguing with identarians your IQ will suffer. Do you honestly believe that anyone unironically in this thread is capable of intellectual honesty?

>>23382812
>t. late millennial/zoomer, most likely American, who decided to browse /pol/ ironically in 2016, takes a hit or three of Evola and fabricates his own pan-euro identarian fiction completely ignoring several thousand years of endless bickering and genocides.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're American looking at Europe from an idolized view.

>>23388058
>Do you honestly believe that anyone unironically in this thread is capable of intellectual honesty?
yes, OP

>>23388026
>doesn't know he is being mocked
this thread keeps on giving

>>23388058
>Stop arguing with identarians
Every. Single. Time.

Buy your open admission that you do not think anybody here is capable of honesty you forego the ability to even understand the word.

>>23379248
new thread is up >>23388583
won't be replying here anymore