/lit/ - Literature

>>23369740
>>>/his/

>>23369741
no

>>23369740
>IT'S JUST A METAPHOR REEEE!!! MYTHS USE STORIES TO TELL THE TRUTH!!! IT'S NOT FALSE YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

>>23369742
how's summer break going?

>>23369740
Heaven is outside space/time. It's a place for the souls. Atheist Jews wouldn't get it.

>>23369740
According to the Catholic dogmatic treatises of the paleo-Thomist manualist tradition, the term Heaven emphasizes the state, not the place, of the Blessed.
https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Pohle,%20Joseph,%201852-1922/Eschatology%20or%20the%20Catholic%20Doctrine%20of%20the%20Last%20Things_%20A%20Dogmatic%20Treatise%20(3785)/

>>23369740
can we even see the edge of the universe with those telescopes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAPI-6fvRk
offtopic thread btw

>>23369740
Why does he assume Heaven is visible in the third dimension? Heaven, Hell, the spirit world, those clearly aren't three dimensional spaces. All Sam Harris proved is that he's a fucking retard.

>>23369794
There is something seriously wrong with these people, that they can't grasp things that children understand.
Heaven isn't literally just "really really high up" you can't take a space rocket and go there.
If there's such a thing as being spiritually retarded, that's what these people are. The idea of things beyond the physical just doesn't compute.

I dont understand how people like this this can exist. you would have thought they would have at least read some science fiction or something like that which plays with ore abstract concepts so they could wrap their heads around such ideas

>>23369807
Do you think science fiction is real? Do you understand what fiction means?

>>23369740
>>23369759
>>23369794
>>23369801
Atheist proselytizers like Harris always use a child's conception of God, heaven, etc. to argue against. That's how you know you're arguing with a dimwit. That's not even mentioning the utter stupidity of implying that our telescopes can even observe more than an infinitesimal fraction of the universe.

The telescopes can’t nearly see the end of the universe

>>23369740
Who the fuck is this retarded fag and why should I care?

In the Bible Jesus does ascend into the sky though and it doesn't sound metaphorical.

>>23369740
it's up your ass faggot

>>23369839
>Atheist proselytizers like Harris always use a child's conception of God, heaven, etc. to argue against.

The adult conception of heaven is just a rationalization of the child conception, like how you can feed a crayon doodle into AI and get back a photorealistic interpretation

>>23369740
You can't be serious...right? Please tell me Sam Harris isn't actually gaining followers with ""logic"" that retarded.

>>23370082
Jesus's spiritual nature was also revealed physically and the "Heavens" were opened and Moses and Elijah appeared on either side of Him. Do you see my point?

BENEVOLENT MESSAGE TO MY ATHEIST /LIT/ FELLOWS: Please, at the very least, though the Bible is The Word of God, for the sake of its overwhelming and incontestable value to the Human race as the most complete, most influential, most widely translated, and most studied book in human history, take the time to read the Word of God and Actually Think Through It. Don't let the Sam Harrises of society make their easy wealth off your ignorance and have their cheap laughs and mocking toasts at your expense. READ! THINK! Better men than you have spent their entire lives doing so. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

>>23370201

Why do you think we have never read the Bible? White US Christians are overwhelmingly former atheists. There aren't enough atheist parents yet for there to be a significant number of people in the US raised atheist. I myself was forced to read the Bible cover to cover once a year for 4 years in a private Christian school and write essays about what I read.

>>23370201

Why do you think we have never read the Bible? White US atheists are overwhelmingly former Christians. There aren't enough atheist parents yet for there to be a significant number of people in the US raised atheist. I myself was forced to read the Bible cover to cover once a year for 4 years in a private Christian school and write essays about what I read.

>>23369794
>>23369801
I'd like to believe he's being disingenuous

>>23370220
>Why do you think...etc.,.
Because of the silly things you're saying, of course. If you read it, you read it poorly. You need to reread and THINK carefully. In your case, if you read it cover to cover and still think like OP's pic, you're just out of your depth and I'm not sure how to help you without literal paired study, which is of course impossible.

>>23370193
I'm not sure, are you saying that the only way for us to perceive Jesus is in a material form, because we live in a material body, and therefore there also had to be a material representation of his ascension?
That's possible. In general I also don't think that Christianity is illogical, you can always find an explanation. I would still say that early Christians seemed to believe that heaven really was "up there" and it seems that they were wrong about that. Christianity just has those misconceptions about the world over the centuries that make me doubt that they know eternal truths. Usually much later, when we discover more about the natural world, Christianity retreats and becomes more and more abstract and spiritual and therefore also harder to falsify but I still look at the earlier misconceptions about reality.

>>23370234

Look at those goalposts move. I didn't say shit. Do you think Christians don't also say silly things? If I cherry picked only the silly things and came at you implying that's all Christians, and the best you've got, how would that come off?

>>23370220
I'd be shocked if the majority of Christians in the US had actually read the bible from front to back, and I really doubt the majority of atheist former Christians have read it either. They probably just didn't like going to church and it's and easy way to rebel against their parents.

>>23370262
>easy way to rebel against their parents
I sometimes wonder how different the situation in the US is compared to Europe. As a European atheist, many American Christians call me an edge lord for being an atheist but the situation here in Germany is really very different it seems. Being an atheist is not seen as very edgy or rebellious, it's really a pretty boring stance.

>>23370262

This is a cope which frames disbelief as a result of laziness and personal shortcomings. Is that also why you reject Islam? Or because you studied it and found it non credible? Are only you capable of that?

>it's really simple see
>there are things that suck and things that don't so--
>THIS IS OBJECTIVE! OBJECTIVE!
>so, we orient ourselves away from the suck toward the unsuck and--
>GO PUT YOUR HAND ON A FUCKING STOVE!
>as I was saying--
>TRUMP HAD TO LOSE! I DON'T CARE IF THE FBI COVERED UP THE BODIES OF MURDERED CHILDREN BEING FOUND IN HUNTER BIDEN'S BASEMENT!
>so yeah, I've solved the is-ought gap

>>23370237
While for us there is a tendency to look at Heaven as either purely physical, spiritual, or metaphor, there is much in the Word to give us clear impression that the distinction between physical and spiritual for God, and even for certain angelic beings, is more gradient—even negligible. God is a Spirit. Angels are spirit. We, however, have a spirit, yet also a body. Whereas certain angelic beings may take on physical forms when they wish, some spiritual beings may not. Likewise, there are spiritual properties to this material realm which are fully apparent to them, but not to us. And what, precisely, were we to put it into our own scientific terminology would spiritual even mean? It is beyond our current knowledge. What is absolutely clear, Heaven is a place and it is a spiritual place.

It isn't about retreat, but advance. The Word of God says explicitly, by the depths of His knowledge God laid the foundations of the Earth. Wisdom was with Him before the beginning of His works. Therefore, everything Man has ever done, every paltry scrap and gleaning we've ever managed to attain in our hunger for understanding is merely the chasing after the shadow of God's Mind. There is a verse in Psalm 19, long a favorite of mine, for to me it is representative of the Philosopher, Mathematician, and Scientist. "Great are the works of the Lord, they are studied by those who love them." There is no end to the study. God is not finite in power or Wisdom. You shouldn't be surprised that Christians are learning about God just as we all collectively learn about His work in Nature. When Moses approached Sinai, to hear and see from God Himself, what did the Word say? "And the people stood afar off, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was." We serve Him, we love Him, we desire Him above all else, or reach for such focus of desire, but God is a mystery. He has revealed Himself in us. He has revealed Himself in nature. He has revealed Himself in His word. He has revealed Himself in His Son, the Messiah Jesus Christ and in our relationship with the Holy Spirit, but until that day when we are changed to the imperishable and prophecy itself ceases for all is known, how can any man hope to fathom the Great and Awesome God who knows every one of the 4 billion actions per second going on in your brain and everyone else's? He hasn't forgotten what was going on in your ancestor's body five thousand years ago. He looks on you and sees every genomic influence you have and knows the perfect balance of nature versus nurture in your person. Do we really reflect on a being like that and say, "Can't see Heaven; must not be there." As if our profane eyes should behold the very House of God without His say so!

If it's not clear, I'm saying God, who spoke this Universe into existence by His brilliant power, may bend it wholesale to His will, and the contemplation of a being so immeasurably beyond our capacity has always required the abstract and spiritual.

>>23370247
Nothing has moved. You are speaking not as you, but for all atheists are you not? You did say "we." Likewise, I addressed you all at once. I've cherry picked nothing. You asked a question, I answered. If you're going to pretend to a monopoly on reason, be rational.

>>23370301
So you've read the bible in its entirety?

>>23370317
>You are speaking not as you, but for all atheists are you not?

You haven't spoken with all atheists.

>Likewise, I addressed you all at once. I've cherry picked nothing.

The OP literally presented an argument cherry picked for its absurdity, which you implicitly treated as broadly representative.

>You asked a question, I answered. If you're going to pretend to a monopoly on reason, be rational.

How would a creationist know what rationality is?

>>23370321

3 times. Reading isn't painful for atheists.

>>23370322
You're out of your depth. I'm sorry to say it, but you are. You need to reread my posts carefully, so we can be certain that you need to reread the Bible.

>>23370326
If you aren't comprehending, what have you really read?

>>23370332

What you mean, with defensive subtext, is that if I did not believe it then I haven't understood it. This is also what Muslims think of you for not concluding Islam is true.

>>23370330

I wonder if Christians ever have epiphenal moments of self awareness about how insufferable they are to people not similarly brainwashed

>>23370413
That's not at all what I mean. I mean what I said.

>>23370420
Cope. I was just as insufferable before I was a Christian, and just as loveable. Personalities like mine create strong reactions.

>>23369740
Reality is anything you want it to be. Dreams, myths, hallucinogenic drugs, whatever you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjF4ZHuIko

>>23370186
Wow, you're so smart! I wish I could be as euphoric as you must be at all times!

>>23370231
How is he being disingenuous? You literally can't refute his argument. If you can't even point to heaven's location then it doesn't exist. Simple as. That's like saying Atlantis exists even though you can't point to its location.

Most people grow out of religion around 14. Some people are so intellectually stunted they never grow out of it.

>>23369740
>Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the kingdom of God come?" Jesus answered, “God’s kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you will be able to see with your eyes. People will not say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ because God’s kingdom is within you.
Luke 17:20-21
> Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
From the Gospel of Thomas

>>23369740
>Materialists can't comprehend the immaterial
I'm not even a christcuck, but damn. I guess alcoholics can't comprehend someone who doesn't drink and a coombrained retard can't comprehend someone who doesn't watch porn. So, this tracks.
>>23369754
Oh... It is, isn't it? Damn.
>>23371077
>Most people grow out of religion around 14
citation needed, m'nigga. :^)

>>23369751
this but unironically

You don't need to refute a solipsist to believe in the external world.

You may as well ask where all our beliefs and desires are, considering we've got all these machines to perform brain scans and yet we've never found any.

Obligatory sage.

>>23370220
>I myself was forced to read the Bible cover to cover once a year for 4 years
Lol.
Come on.

I'm a fairly pious Christian and there are plenty of books in the Bible I have never read.
I think this Atheist lie that they have read the entirety of the Bible multiple times is silly

>>23369740
>christ ascends upwards into the clouds
>early christians actually knew it wasn't literally in the sky, tho

>>23369801
>Heaven isn't literally just "really really high up"
It used to be until this got disproven. Jhwh flied around the israelites as a cloud. This is invisible spacetime shit is jsut more cope.

>>23369801
>Heaven isn't literally just "really really high up" you can't take a space rocket and go there.
That's LITERALLY what it is though
The modern English word heaven is derived from the earlier (Middle English) heven (attested 1159); this in turn was developed from the previous Old English form heofon. By about 1000, heofon was being used in reference to the Christianized "place where God dwells", but originally, it had signified "sky, firmament"[2] (e.g. in Beowulf, c. 725). The English term has cognates in the other Germanic languages: Old Saxon heƀan "sky, heaven" (hence also Middle Low German heven "sky"), Old Icelandic himinn, Gothic himins; and those with a variant final -l: Old Frisian himel, himul "sky, heaven", Old Saxon and Old High German himil, Old Saxon and Middle Low German hemmel, Old Dutch and Dutch hemel, and modern German Himmel. All of these have been derived from a reconstructed Proto-Germanic form *hemina-.[3] or *hemō.[4]

οὐρᾰνός • (ouranós) m (genitive οὐρᾰνοῦ); second declension

the vaulted sky, on which the stars were attached and the sun traveled: sky, heaven

>>23371570
>>23371592
Augustine wrote that heaven is immaterial in his Confessions...

>>23371592
Do you think a person could get to heaven (or hell) by physically crossing the distance to wherever it is? Could we all be in heaven right now if we had the coordinates and the gasoline? Doesn’t it make so much more sense to regard heaven and hell as being on other planes of existence, discontinuous with the physical space we live in? Or is God hiding heaven somewhere in the back pockets of the universe so we can’t move there?

>>23369740
What a moron.
Science hypothesizes multiple dimensions. Of course Christians have thought os this Platonic perfect-space for centuries. Get out of here with this angle, dipship. "Telescopes"

>>23371658
that's how it works in Motherload so I think it's probably the case

>>23371592
anon neither of those languages are the origin of the creation narrative

>>23372246
Similar story for Hebrew and Greek AFAICT

>>23371747
lmao

>>23369740
Based Harris redpilling the goyim.

>>23369740
Prebunked by Belina Carlisle.

https://youtu.be/j2F4INQFjEI

>>23369740
The afterlife is in a different dimension of the universe and science is too corrupt to look honestly to it. Which doesn't mean science has not found it yet, indeed it has. Researchers on different states of consciousness and our of body experiences (like Robert Monroe) have found scientifically what has been known by the religiously esoteric all the time.
The neo abrahamic religion of capitalist science is simply too corrupt to accept the evidence.

>>23369740
Not sure what an "Sam Harris" is but I avoid religion out of principle; following people is for children and morons. I'd probably suggest you refrain from using other people's arguments lest you become as pliant as the fools you critique.