/lit/ - Literature

>>23290510
Ulysses is enjoyable. Every page is beautiful. But if you read it like a normal book where you just want to get through and find out what happens you won’t like it. You have to read it for its own sake.

>>23290510
It's enjoyable the same way working on a car or learning a language is enjoyable. It's work, but working feels good.

Reckon Joyce is funnier than Pynchon. The brit ex-military dude who gets all sentimental over the royals while talking about blowing pajeets from a cannon made me laugh more than anything in Gravity's Rainbow.

>>23290510
He's not?

>>23290510
Kinda sad the summerly Ulysses read alongs fell apart. It was always fun to see who got to Circe to basically read a completely new book.

>>23290515
None of those things are enjoyable. Rewarding maybe, but not enjoyable. Jerking off is enjoyable.

>>23290757
Yet, less satisfying.

>>23290832
You're not a real gooner

>>23290757
Attitudes like this are why literacy rates are falling.

>>23290837
I agree. Doesn't make it any less true thoughever. 100 years ago a man didn't have a near-infinite amount of ready-made gooning material at the touch of his fingertips. Its all an you can eat buffet for distraction and instant gratification. What kid is going to sit down and read War and Peace when he has all that shit?

>>23291045
all you can eat buffet*

Ulysses is quite honestly one of the most fun reads I've ever had. I finished it faster than I've ever finished a book of that length. I need to read it again.

>>23291305
I cannot imagine someone reading it without having to look things up which makes me wonder if you didn't bother with understanding a lot of it.

>>23292647
Not him but long term Joycefag, helped run the Joyce marathon /lit/ did 4 years ago as well. There is literally nothing, absolutely nothing in Ulysses that is central to the plot, the characters or the "fun" that you need to be looking things up. If you simply take it seriously and aren't a literal retard you will finish the book in a decently quick fashion. The things you will be "searching up" like old references to Irish culture/history, literature, philosophy, science etc. are all secondary. The story is first and foremost the journey of the modern "hero", the lionising of the ordinary and mundane. 99% of the "hidden stuff" is for undergraduates and academics to paw through, and perhaps a little treat for a reader who can catch them out.
What are you going to "look up" to make your way through Sirens? What needs researched to enjoy Molly's soliloquy?

>>23292656
>The things you will be "searching up" like old references to Irish culture/history, literature, philosophy, science etc. are all secondary.
>The things you will be "searching up" like old references to Irish culture/history, literature, philosophy, science etc. are all secondary.
This takes time regardless of how necessary it is to enjoy the book. Or is it part of being "a literal retard" to not immedeately understand it can be skipped?

>>23292669
>This takes time regardless of how necessary it is to enjoy the book
What? Obviously, the point is that why would you do it anyway? You're probably missing more references than you're ever catching, and not a single one you're wasting time to research is going to leave you enjoying or understanding the book as a whole more than you already will. When Mulligan and Haines spot Parnell's brother in Wandering Rocks you're not going to be gaining anything by searching up who Parnell's brother was, who Parnell was, why he was important etc.
This is the trap basically everybody falls into when reading Ulysses, they always think they're missing out on something because of the reputation from academics and book YouTubers or whatever. You don't see people reading the Iliad and constantly stopping to check up about far away Bronze Age geography, or reading essays on the portrayal of the Gods in such a human sense etc. You read and enjoy the story. It's the same for Ulysses. Stephen and Bloom are two of the most if not the most fleshed out characters in fiction and there's a lot to relate to, learn from, appreciate, and emphasise during their ordinary day through the city. It's a day I've lived out a million times and many others have lived out, even if they don't live in Dublin and can't see the exact locations or the plaques on the ground telling you this is where Leopold Bloom crossed the road etc.
Joyce wrote primarily for the normal person, he wasn't some puffed up snob like most of the modernist movement or even the Irish revival. He experienced both ends of the spectrum, but he would spend more time with the ordinary man and living like one than most. Those little episodes, the characters, the vulgar speech, the money counting, the selfishness, the nonsensical attitudes to things etc. are all the main part. The book at its core is Joyce's "love letter" to the Dublin and Dubliners of the late 19th and early 20th century. It's a very human and emotional work in that regard, and it was not made to simply hide some big esoteric secret at its core, or to serve as some mental exercise for academics. If you don't understand everything that's normal, you're not needed or supposed to. Most of the things are present simply because it belongs in the Dublin of 1904. Plums Potted Meat is referenced over and over because it was a product that was there at the time, Bloom says it over and over in his head not just because it was a catchy slogan but because it was slang for having sex and his wife was doing exactly that with another man. How would anybody know this in the modern day? How would you even know there was a joke being made here? It doesn't matter, it simply adds to the character of Bloom and shows his mind working, the stream of consciousness etc.
TL;DR just read the book, don't try and decipher everything because you will never do it, and you will never catch it all. Enjoy the world, the characters, and the simple plot.

>>23292712
I think my wonder at a someone's quick first reading has been dispelled by your guidance in attitude. I think you agree that it is not obvious after all since you say it is a trap sprung by almost all and I chalk up your insulting of the multitudes to the brash creed of an anon. You've given me some things to think about. Thanks for sharing your insights.

For anyone doing a Ulysses read this year, this is a fairly laid back pace that'll help you finish the book by summer's end.

>>23291045
most if it isn't that good though is it? maybe i'm gay, 99% porn is either ugly or boring to me.

>>23290757
>t. someone who has never done any work in his life
we are biologically programmed to enjoy work for its own sake, being busy pleases us
your masturbation counterargument is also complete shit, do you enjoy moving your hand up and down or the 'reward' each stroke brings? masturbation, by your definition, is not enjoyable but gratifying
stop being a nigger

>>23290510
I thought the first few Deadlus chapters were a blast. Although I admit I didn't make it more than halfway. I plan to reread it soon.

>>23292647
There were a few things I decided to look up, but I went into the book without expecting myself to understand everything the first time (as anyone should when reading any book for the first time). I understood everything that was happening quite easily. Going back through it more carefully and reading some supplementary material beforehand (rereading Hamlet, the Odyssey and the like) will surely be fruitful, as there are absolutely hundreds of details that I missed or did not understand, but it's quite enjoyable to read as is and quite easy to follow once you get used to the style.

Quick question lads: I've seen that this has gone through a number of editions, but is there any substantial differences between them? Or can I just pick up whatever version is cheapest and be good to go? I'm not too fussed about critical editions with footnotes/endnotes, more the content of the novel itself.

>>23294001
Only one you should avoid is the Gabler edition, the editor went a bit retard and messed things around. It's not THAT big of a deal though. Wordsworth Classics would be fine, that was my first ever copy and what I worked through my masters on. I do enjoy the Dover edition that's a facsimile of the first edition and has a lovely blue cover as well.

>>23294019
Ah ok cool. Thanks.

>>23290510
If you don't like reading Joyce, you don't like literature, period. Besides, anon, Finnegan's Wake is the one people usually choose to point out how Joyce "isn't fun".

Why is the protagonist jewish if Dublin supposedly had only a tiny jewish population at the time? That's like writing about Tokyo and making the protagonist a gaijin tourist. Or is the explanation as cliche as I imagine it to be...him being jewish making him an outsider and therefore an ideal PoV character or something?

>>23292712
I have to agree with this anon. People, especially on /lit/, worry so much whether they're getting 100% of the given work they're reading or is a boog that's big on /lit/, so they want to maintain appearances and be in the known and avoid getting "filtered", that they miss the most integral part of the utmost importance to reading the book, enjoying the act of reading itself!
I was like that when I first tried Moby Dick, tried to look up as much references that I caught on, but didn't understand, listened to lectures on it by Melvillian scholars and experts on literature and the American novel, etc., but on my second reading I was surprised to notice just how misguided I was because I was missing the forest for the trees and the book's wit and heart, all the little details that make it such a great novel went over my head, all because I was putting pressure on trying to get it, and in doing so, it lead me to not getting it and missing the fucking point.

>>23290623
I joined the read along in 2022 and enjoyed it a lot, even if we were only 3-5 anons who made it all the way to the end and finished the book. I would join again for a re-read. It was immensely enjoyable to read and discuss.

>>23290510
>Shouldn’t a good book be enjoyable to read?
nah
not if youre trying to art real hard
and that was jimmys whole MO
dude arted hard af

>>23290510
I just bought it and now I'm kinda scared of it. Should I bite the bullet after finishing Fathers and Sons?

>>23294321
Was the read along in 2022? I was certain it was 2020, wew. It was funny seeing how many people started with Dubliners and then by the time Bloom was going to bed it was like 3 people lel. I wrote a lot of essay posts to help people starting off and I hope people actually enjoyed it more because of that, it was nice to have a proper reading thread instead of the usual bait faggotry.

Maybe it's time for another read along, fellers

>>23294372
Start one, they're the best thing about /lit/ and they actually are a net positive for the community.

>>23294068
Technically, according to some stricter Halakhic interpretations of Jewish law, he’s actually not since Judaism is supposed to be matrilineal (passed down through descent from the mother). Bloom’s dead dad is Jewish, not his mother. His father then converted to Protestantism anyway. So there’s a double-outsiderness here — to outsiders, he’s seen as ”a Jew”, even though he’s an entirely non-practicing Jew, and in fact even outwardly (but perhaps not entirely committedly and seriously) converted to Catholicism to marry Molly. So even among Jews he’s not a typical “Jew”. He’s an outsider to both Gentiles and Jews, in his own way.

Jews are also one of the most famous diasporic populations in the world, so it seems the idea of Jews in diaspora also mirrors Odysseus’s wandering.

>>23294374
Oh I've never done one, but I can make a thread to see if anyone's interested

>>23294411
It's easy to set up, just pick a book, make an announcement thread to see who is interested, if you get a group of 10-20 people you set a date with them and do a reading every week and then discuss it.

>>23294400
>>23294068
(Continued)
His mother is also an Irish Catholic, so Bloom is at least half ethnically-Irish, and the other half Hungarian-Jewish, and he grew up in Ireland, of course, so is culturally Irish. It’s not that insane.

>>23290510
you a bitch nigga for this one crying bitch ass faggot. yeah you one stupid white boi faggot cracka, you shouldn't read nigga if its too hard for you boo boo. I know plenty nigga in the hood that dont read n they got plenty of pussy nigga. put the books down my nigga they aint for you dawg

>>23294400
So the cliche explanation, then.

Halaklic law is one thing, but to most jews and non-jews alike a jew is someone, converted or not, who has jewish ancestors, converted or not, on either side of his family up to at the very least the level of grandparents. Jews were an ethnicity before judaism became a religion of its own, and when it did so, it became a religion as a result of the ethnic conscience of its followers, rather than the religion forming the ethnic conscience.

>>23294418
Alright then let me do the honors

>>23294435
The only way it could get worse was if he hamfisted an extra "being deracinated and jewish is like, a metaphor for modernity, man...we are all spiritual jews because we are all rootless and cursed to wander aimlessly in the modern era, dude" metaphor in there.

>>23294400
>Jews are also one of the most famous diasporic populations in the world
Why not gypsies? Or the irish themselves, for that matter. Or perhaps armenians. Or germans in eastern europe. Vikings, the chinese, mongols, turks...

>>23294400
>>23294424
>>23294435
Joyce also thinks that the Jew is the protagonist of the western world, writing a book that thrives on universality it makes sense that his protagonist is ethnically a Jew, or at least had prominent lineage.

>>23294479 see
>>23294494

>>23294352
Yeah I remember it was 2022 cause it was the 100 year anniversary of Ulysses. Might have been reading groups before that though. I remember one anon effort posting a lot for each chapter and found the posts helpful.

>>23294372
I'm in

>>23294651
Starting on July 16, brochacho get hype

>>23290510
If you think Ulysses is a grind wait until you crack open Finnegans Wake

>>23292712
Based

>>23292647
Just read it, you'll drive yourself insane if you try to understand every random reference and allusion in it. If you like it, you'll want to reread it anyway to dig deeper.

>>23292712
>You don't see people reading the Iliad and constantly stopping to check up about far away Bronze Age geography, or reading essays on the portrayal of the Gods in such a human sense etc.
That’s exactly what I did. Though I agree that this kind of approach should be limited to books like the Iliad or other cornestones of literature. Ulysses just doesn’t warrant that kind of work and thus one should, like Anon said, just read and enjoy the story. Different books, different ways to extract the most of each one

>>23295222
Your post number is the amount of pages I've read of it, 222, but I enjoyed some parts very much before I dropped it. It was almost a decade ago, in my early 20s. You and others here have convinced me. I'll read it all when I'm done with my current book.

>>23292712
If you don’t know who Parnell is you probably shouldn’t be reading Joyce

>>23295283
this lmao
all the references are in there for a reason, otherwise he would have just written a simple gay ass story for normals
if you're not getting them you're missing half the novel

>>23295283
Parnell is not important in Ulysses, Portrait yes, not Ulysses. Anything about Irish nationalism can be picked up from The Citizen episode.
>>23295368
You have missed more references than you've ever recognised, your enjoyment of the book is not hampered because of that. You don't need to know what "Photo bits" is, why everybody was lounging about on a Thursday, who Haines or Mulligan actually were, who Cranly was, what A.E.I.O.U means and so forth. Ulysses is entirely readable and enjoyable on its own.

>>23296146
>Ulysses is entirely readable and enjoyable on its own.
Exactly this. The musicality of the prose for the sake of the prose is worth the read and the investment.