/lit/ - Literature

Latin translation challenge: Adherbal's letter to the senate

I wish the online Old Norse community was like the Latin community
>join old norse group
>it's full of women obsessed with the Vikings tv show, larpers and shills

>>23257207
yeah tends to happen I think more generally the more the language is popular or has bursts of popularity, with Latin it's kinda similar as it's probably the #1 ancient language people get interested with in the west; do they at least learn the language?

damn /clg/ is slow in the last few days

>>23257493
Unlike the denizens of /cgl/, who are slow all the time

>>23257255
Yeah but most of them just want to learn how to write things in runes, not to read the thousands of pages of literature that we have in Old Norse
Another thing is that people only want to read the mythological texts

What is/are the best book(s) to learn Sanskrit, in your opinion?

>>23258544
Assimil gets brought up here quite ofte'

bump for cc

>>23259503
This week's CC translation exercise. This should keep you occupied.

>揚子遁居,離俗獨處。左鄰崇山,右接曠野。鄰垣乞兒,終貧且窶。禮薄義弊,相與羣聚。惆悵失志,呼貧與語:

>「汝在六極,投棄荒遐。好為庸卒,刑戮相加。匪惟幼稚,嬉戲土砂。居非近鄰,接屋連家。恩輕毛羽,義薄輕羅。進不由德,退不受呵。久為滯客,其意謂何?人皆文繡,余褐不完。人皆稻粱,我獨藜飱。貧無寶玩,何以接歡?宗室之燕,為樂不槃。徒行負笈,出處易衣。身服百役,手足胼胝。或耘或耔,霑體露肌。朋友道絕,進宮凌遲。厥咎安在?職汝為之!舍汝遠竄,崑崙之顛。爾復我隨,翰飛戾天。舍爾登山,巖穴隱藏。爾復我隨,陟彼高岡。捨爾入海,泛彼柏舟。爾復我隨,載沈載浮。我行爾動,我靜爾休。豈無他人?從我何求?今汝去矣,勿復久留!」

>貧曰:「唯唯。主人見逐,多言益嗤。心有所懷,願得盡辭!昔我乃祖,宗其明德。克佐帝堯,誓為典則。土階茅茨,匪彫匪飾。爰及季世,縱其昬惑。饕餮之羣,貪富苟得。鄙我先人,乃傲乃驕。瑤臺瓊榭,室屋崇高。流酒為池,積肉為崤。是用鵠逝,不踐其朝。三省吾身,謂予無諐。處君之家,福祿如山。忘我大德,思我小怨。堪寒能暑,少而習焉。寒暑不忒,等壽神仙。桀跖不顧,貪類不干。人皆重蔽,予獨露居。人皆怵惕,予獨無虞。」

>言辭既磬,色厲目張。攝齊而興,降階下堂︰「誓將去汝,適彼首陽。孤竹二子,與我連行!」

>余乃避席,辭謝不直:「請不貳過,聞義則服。長與汝居,終無厭極。」貧遂不去,與我遊息。

>>23257207
What's wrong with people who got interested in a language through media? That's probably most of the Japanese learners on this site.

>>23259776
Your post answers itself.

>>23259789
I don't see how. Is my Japanese learning less valid because I first got interested in it through video games and anime?

>>23259796
Not necessarily, because you have the possibility of moving beyond that. Most, especially on this site, don't.

>>23259802
Well, it's what led me to Classical Chinese, via kanbun, so I'd count that as moving beyond. But even if I hadn't, if someone is enjoying cartoons they couldn't understand before, isn't that a concrete benefit they've gotten out of the language?

>>23259812
The existence of a concrete benefit to someone doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with something.

>>23259814
I'd rather be happy that people are getting something they enjoy out of learning a language then judge them for enjoying things I don't enjoy. Hey guys, stop having fun!

>>23259817
That's your belief and if you're happy with it then you'll continue that way and that is what it is. I believe that there is such thing as nobility and that there are good and bad things for the soul.

>>23259831
Which is why you're posting on one of the biggest hives of scum and villainy on the Internet.

do you happen to find little mistakes in the editions you read? I wish I had marked them but I casually found some in few Teubners for Homer, usually little stuff like wrong breathings but still

:)

>>23256983
The Numidians a few days after having been ordered are acting. A letter of Adherbal in the Senate was recited, of which the feeling was this: "Not by my fault often to you do I send a request, Conscripted Fathers, but the strength of Jugurtha impels me, whom so great a desire of extinguishing me invades, that he holds neither you nor the immortal gods in mind, he wants my blood more than all things. Therefore now for five months, I, an ally and friend of the Roman people, am held having been obsessed by weapons; for me, neither the good deeds of my father Micipsa, nor your disputes help; whether by the sword or by hunger I am more bitterly urged, I am uncertain. [...]

Okay I tried a few lines. Now the teacher can correct my mistakes, and someone else can do the next few lines =)

>>23260802
What's this from?

>>23261119
>The Numidians a few days after having been ordered are acting
the ablative "paucis diebus" indicates the time within the action too place, so more simply "the Numidians obeyed to the biddings within few days"
>of which the feeling was this
sententia here just means content

>Not by my fault often to you do I send a request
here "oratum" is an accusative supine of orare, which appear with verbs of movement or like mitto, so "ad vos oratum mitto" is more like "I send to make a plead to you"

>nor your disputes help
I think decreta here just means the actions that the Romans are taking

not bad anon

ἈΝΑΣΤΗΘΙ Ὥ /ΚΛΓ/

>>23263129
᾽ΕΓΕΙΡΩ

>>23261174
Nalopakhyanam

>>23256805
>be me
>go to /clg/
>see a guy meme about duolingo latin
>wtf there's latin on duolingo?
>spend a few weeks on that
>30k xp
>now I feel pretty comfortable getting started with actual books
Thanks random /clg/ memelord!

>>23263494
if that worked, good for you. I am not a fan of duolingo in general. It's okay for vocab but there's so little grammatical teaching.

>>23263494
https://tatsumoto.neocities.org/blog/why-shouldnt-i-just-keep-using-an-app-instead

>>23263510
Grammar basically does nothing for me, it's good to try and stay mindful of it to correct persistent mistakes, but unless I am actually making mistakes persistently and noticing them persistently, grammatical rules just don't stick with me at all. Memorising the flow of language usually helps me more to improve my skills than learning grammar.
>>23263515
Eh, it's been useful for me. I learnt 600 words for basically no effort and I only need a couple thousand more words in order to be able to orient myself through most texts (according to Google). It's useful for vocabulary, which is the killer for me usually. The xp shit is also like crack so it (somehow) sustains my interest just as much as having an interesting text in front of me, if not more.

Does anyone know if there's an Attic translation of the Old Testament? Surely some Byzantine/renaissance scholar made one. The Septuagint is such unreadable Greek Second Language trash that I can't bear it, but I still want to read the OT in Greek.

>>23263515
>AJATT
You can't do this with Greek or Latin unless you go to VR thoughbeit

>>23263777
*VN

>>23263755
>I learnt 600 words for basically no effort
if you do ajatt, you learn 600 words in much less time though

Does AJATT let you use bilingual dictionaries?

>>23263761
why not just read it in koine?

>>23263841
I would be fine if it was NT-style Koine but it's basically the ancient Hawaiian Pidgin bible. I feel like my Greek is probably getting worse while reading through it.

>>23263761
I seem to remember some anon mentioning byzantine era partial Attic renditions but I don't recall the authors

>>23257870
Because the mythological stuff, or more accurately the stuff involving Asatru and Asatruar, is the only interesting portion of the language. The same thing applies to Greek and Latin: once the Christfaggotry starts the language becomes sterile, there's nothing new or interesting to be found in it, it's just hissyfits over the dating of Passover or getting upset about some other bishop disagreeing on how to spell homooiouisiouoiusiaosion. If you were completely unaware of how Christianity works and were coming from a nonchristian background then that might be novel, but you don't need to learn a dead language to get this stuff.

>>23263810
Not if you're not doing the work. Textbooks feel like a chore, so having this support to push me through a textbook feels helpful.

>>23263869
I am going to read the Bishop's sagas, Saint's sagas and the Gospel of Matthew

>>23263869
Christchad literature is more interesting than most other late antique literature, which is just dick sucking whatever thug emperor happens to be in power / Reddit atheism / fanfiction "epics" / formulaic poetry / formulaic philosophy - in a word, sterile. Meanwhile, Christchads felt their literature so deeply that they got into deadly fights over it, burned their rivals' literature, founded new churches, starved themselves, etc. In a word - vitalistic.

>Thangbrand travelled through all the western part of the land. Steinunn, the mother of Ref the Poet, came to meet him. She preached heathenism and lectured at great length to Thangbrand. Thangbrand was silent while she spoke, but then spoke at length and showed everything she said to be wrong.
>‘Have you heard,’ she said, ‘that Thor challenged Christ to a duel and that Christ didn’t dare to fight with him?’
>‘What I have heard,’ said Thangbrand, ‘is that Thor would be mere dust and ashes if God didn’t want him to live.’
This is the pinnacle of the Christian Pagan dialogue in Old Icelandic literature

>>23259831
>>23259843
owned.

>>23263936
sounds like that copypasta of the smug professor, the bold student rebuking him, and the eagle flying in the room, etc..., nil sub sole novi

The more Ancient Greek I get through, the more I become worried I'll have nothing interesting left to read. I'm looking through all the Loebs and most of the stuff I haven't read is just orations/hunting treatises/Nonnus. And considering Greek overall, most of Greek literature outside of Loebs is probably asinine patristic exegesis about how the mention of fish in Genesis predicted Jesus, or medical treatises.
Meanwhile, Latinchads have all of medieval and renaissance literature along with the classics.

>>23263965
But what you have read is comprised of the crown jewels of literature of all times and places, and true reading is deep rereading.

>>23264005
True, I’m just sad more mid tier ancient Greek literature, like the novels, hasn’t survived. Not always in the mood for Thucydides or Plato.

>>23264044
don't a few Greek novels survive? Like some of Lucian's stuff?

>>23263965
I am ngl I am only learning ancient Greek for astrological manuals and Plotinus.

>>23263304
But what book is the vocabulary/translation from? It looks like a good reader to learn from

>>23257207
Is learning an ancient Germanic language even worth it? I love Old English but a handful of primary sources and a few scraps of poetry just don't compare with what learning Latin or Greek gives you.

>>23264209
There apparently is a fair amount of Old English compared to some other languages, and a shitload of Middle English. (I was reading a primer on ME so maybe that's just overblown by the anglophone audience)

>>23264185
Lanman's Sanskrit reader. I'm just modernizing the formatting.

>>23264273
Thank you. Going to check it out. :)

>>23264209
Well do you like Old Norse literature? If you do then it might be worth it
I think people underestimate just how much Old Norse literature we have
It's far more than Old English and the majority of it consists of stories, saga or tales, with many heroes and anti-heroes
People say that they're surprised by just how modern the Sagas feel, they're almost novel like in the way that they're written, but they're clearly medieval in the way that they're obsessed with genealogy and how they will often drop all dramatic tension just to tell you about this random character who is almost immediately forgotten until 5 chapters later where he doesn't really do anything for the story
But the important thing is that you know who his father is, who his mother is and who his mother's father is

There's also Gothic but I don't see how it's worth learning unless you're a PIE scholar or Germanic languages enthusiast
Btw I'm hoping that my knowledge of ON will help me learn OE but if it doesn't that's no big deal

>>23263965
never understood this sentiment. you could spend the rest of your life with Plato alone.

>>23264082
There’s Ethiopian Story and also Daphnis and Chloe. Those are the big ones which survive in full.

Could I write a textbook for an ancient language without putting my real name and degree while still having it get popular/sold? I only have a bachelor's in psychology, applied linguistics, and a language, but I feel like I can write better (and more readable) textbooks than many of the ones I've seen.
So many of them simply present information and do it with a thematical approach, while I wish to establish building blocks to allow the textbook to build upon itself to make it easier to learn and retain the information, all with an easy-to-read design (think like many Assimil books where the headings have a certain distinct color, the text is not usually too small, and there are many subsections with paragraphs that do not usually drag on too much).

>>23265573
Like you said, there aren't too many great learning materials out there for AG, so if you could write a high quality textbook I'm sure it would gain popularity by word of mouth.

>>23265573
Do it, no one is stopping you. If it is that good it will get sold

>>23264082
There are 5 main ones and a few novel-esque ones, but I've gone through them. Very highly recommended btw.

>>23265193
I guess I misstated myself. I'm more just sad that there's not tons of easy CI in Greek once you get through Xenophon, the novels, etc.
Of course there's enough Greek to keep you occupied overall but it's not like learning French where you can just read mystery novels or w.e Most Greek stuff is far more intensive.

>>23265573
It would be much more efficient to petition Assimil to translate their excellent Ancient Greek course into English, or to find a francophone and make an unofficial translation.

The US state department finds that it takes 600 instructional hours for monolingual anglophones to reach B1 proficiency in French or Spanish.
Obviously with classical languages the same qualifiers of fluency are out the window. But how many hours do you estimate it takes to read Caesar, Xenophon, Han Feizi, Bhagavadgita?

>>23267322
Normie language learners will say that if they need to search up more than 2-3 words a page then the book is too advanced for their level
/clg/ posters will be happy to search up every single word in a sentence, except maybe a pronoun or a common verb, and see no problem with this

>>23257870
>people learning old languages
I want to read mythology and epic literature
>me
I want to read shitposting

>>23267322
It took me like 1 year of Greek (1-2 hours every day) to be able to read Xenophon more or less fluently. If you're 110+ IQ it will take you about as long.

>>23267588
Bullshit
That would only make sense if you were focusing on Xenophon's vocabulary and idiom

>>23267591
Ok maybe more like a year and a half (Dec 2022-now)

>>23267322
I learned enough Latin and Sanskrit to translate Cicero into Sanskrit in just 2 months without any dictionary lookups. Just have 180+ IQ, 7+ inch dick.

>>23267591
Most textbooks prepare the reader for Xenophon. Being able to read him comfortably after a year is not impossible.

>>23267322
there's reading and reading, many will be happy if they can go through Caesar looking up every other word and kinda mechanically translate every other sentence, that's doable even within few months I think but kinda horrid and dreadful
I'd say a decent consistent study of a couple of hours a day and graded reading over a year will give someone the tools to read Caesar to a good enough level to call it truly "reading" within reason i.e some words will need to be looked up but the sense of most sentences(which end up being often repetitive give the subject) will be neither grammatically obscure or with too many alien words.

>>23267322
Classical Chinese is a toughie. Do we presume character knowledge or not?
Not having character knowledge at least doubles the time it takes to get from zero to Han Feizi. Probably more than doubles to be honest. Frankly I don't know any westerners who learned CC without a background in other languages other than the pathologically obsessive.

gonna kms if wwiii starts before I finish the Odyssey

Will knowing Spanish help me with Latin?

>>23268128
With vocab, somewhat, yes

With grammar, mixed bag. It won't do jack shit for the declension system. For verbs, some conjugations in Latin, like present tense and perfect tense, can be pretty similar to Spanish.

Overall yes it'll help but not as much as you may think.

>>23268148
I think even "somewhat" is an overstatement. Learning Latin as a Frenchman and barely recognising any words when I started Cicero was an experience in itself.

Is this the place where I can get resources on how to learn ancient Greek so I can read the septuigant and antiquity classics?

>>23268182
Yes. Get the Italian Athenaze textbook

I am something of a tirunculus in Latin.
Can I use de + uterne, as in e.g. "liber de utrone Iuppiter nos amet" to mean "a book about whether Jupiter loves us"? If not, what would be a more idiomatic way to say this?

I'm getting really stuck for how to learn Greek vocab. I've been trying since January to learn set lists of the most common prose/epic/tragic vocab using anki, and I feel I've gotten nowhere. When I look at a flashcard (that I've been studying for months at this point), it feels like I have a 50/50 chance of it feeling completely new, and it takes me half a dozen repeats to finally get it right only for it to appear completely foreign to me yet again the next day. Consequently, I feel like I'm wasting hours of my time that could be spent doing something else.

>>23269264
Don't just drill anki. You need to see the word used in context. It's best to learn vocab in the context of reading. Then you can reread the passage as needed, and the context will clue you into the meaning, so you will remember it more often.

If you must use anki, at least write out (or just speak aloud) an example sentence or two using the word in a logical context.

>>23268623
good question, I don't think you'd use uter like that which is an interrogative pronoun(i.e uter nos amat? which of the two loves us?)
but perhaps something like 'de utrum Iuppiter nos amet quaestione' that is, using the indirect question in an attributive position for quaestio

>>23269264
Just read lots of easy literature and use a paper vocab list. Read out the entries once or twice a day.

i can't decide if i should major in ancient greek or just pick another subject which interests me (philosophy) and teach myself autodidactically...

on the one hand there is an abundance of great resources available, but on the other hand I worry about ending up crippled in comparison to uni students who went through a rigorous schedule and were instructed by experts in translating from and into greek (style exercises).

>Quidquid id est, timeō Danaōs et dōna ferentēs.
>"Here, together with ferentēs, et = etiam"

But y tho

>>23270166
mmh yeah makes sense in context, he's not saying just "I fear the Greeks when they bring gifts" but it's double, like "I fear Greeks, and (especially) when they bring gifts"
it would also not make much sense if "dona ferentes" were to be interpreted as generic bringer of gifts so it has to be associated with Danaos

>>23270166
We're on the same chapter Wheelock bro
This shit is gettin kinda difficilis desu

what's everyone's favorite Greek word? ἒμοιγε ἐστι τὸ λιθοβολέω

>>23269982
>went through a rigorous schedule and were instructed by experts
It's not 1870 anymore lol. Tons of classics students suck at Greek now. Unless you're going to the Polis Institute or something there's nothing you'll really learn in class that you couldn't learn on your own. Maybe prose composition is an exception here but you could just get a tutor.

>>23270476
obviously the education is not as rigorous as it used to be, but the professors seem competent and there is a great focus on prose composition here
although you're likely correct, learning on my own should be fine, thanks

>>23270469
I like certain epithets, νεφεληγερέτης, κορυθαίολος, χαλκοκορυστής, those stay easily in memory

Nobody should major in classics in 2024 except those willing to hear that advice from everyone and do it anyway.

>>23270469
Κορινθιάζομαι

>>23270166
Et is like και in Greek. It can be used adverbially and take on the meaning of 'also, even'

>>23267541
Remember when Gaius and Aulus, bros for life, was a meme on /his/? Good times.

>>23256805
Are any of you Latin learners good enough to read Calvin? Can you tell if he writes well or not? Does he have an identifiable style? Is it rigid or beautiful, written with finesse or with severity?
https://calvin.reformation.nl/872-Institutes+of+the+Christian+Religion.+Institutio+christianae+religionis.+Institution+de+la+religion+chrestienne/4/10
>Sic hodie ceremoniarum spectaculo non modo vulgus indoctum, sed ut quisque mundana prudentia maxime inflatus est, mirifice capitur. Hypocritae vero et fatuae mulierculaea nihil nec speciosius nec melius cogitari posse existimant. At qui penitius discutiunt et verius expendunt secundum pietatis regulam, quid tot ac tales ceremoniae valeant, intelligunt primum nugas esse, quod nihil utilitatis habeant: deinde praestigias, quod spectantium oculos inani pompa deludunt. De iis ceremoniis loquor quibus subesse magna mysteria volunt Romanenses magistri: nos nihil quam mera ludibria experimur. Nec mirum est, earum authores eo delapsos esse, ut frivolis ineptiis et se et alios luderent: quia partim ex Gentium deliriis exemplar sibi sumpserunt, partim simiarum more temere imitati sunt veteres Mosaicae Legis ritus, qui nihilo magis ad nos pertinebant, quam pecudum victimae et reliqua his similia. Sane etiamsi nullum aliud sit argumentum, tamen ex farragine tam male consuta nemo sanus aliquid boni sperabit. Et res ipsa palam demonstrat, plurimas ceremonias non alium habere usum, nisi ut populum obstupefaciant magis quam doceant. Sic et in novitiis istis Canonibus, qui disciplinam invertunt magis quam conservant, multum momenti reponunt hypocritae; siquis introspiciat melius, reperiet nihil esse praeter umbratile et evanidum disciplinae spectrum.

>>23271412
pretty damn good classical Latin imho, if you removed the anachronous references and told me this was written by a classical era big shot I'd believe it

How does oratio obliqua work in Latin? Would you recommend any resources to learn more about it?
>t. getting filtered by Caesar of all people

>>23271473
the wiki page is pretty good for a start imho, many examples directly from the literature, look at it case by case,

Why is no one learning Egyptian? Should I do it?

>>23272174
>Why is no one learning Egyptian?
Small corpus.
We have people ITT complaining about the lack of things to read in Greek. What are you even going to read in Egyptian?

>>23272174
I do not see the point

>>23272174
Learn Coptic instead

What's the /calm/est piece of Greek poetry? I just want something very relaxing.

>>23259699
rushed translation
Yangzi hid, left aside social mores and resided alone. To his left were revered mountains, to his right were rolling plains. Nearby him were some beggars by a low wall, they were poor and needy. Their manners were poor and conduct improper, so they united together. In sadness, they lost all determination, and shouted to speak with poverty:
“You live in the six extremes, casting aside the old wasteland. You like common death, and for people to kill one another. You are a bandit, yet childish, you enjoy the theatre of dirt and sand. You are not a neighbour to anyone, you have no room or even a house. Your kindness is light like a feather, your righteousness is thin like a net. Your progress does not stem from virtue, and your retreat is not scolded. You use time to block travellers (?), what can this ideology be called? People are the embroidered cloth, I am the coarse leftovers. People eat rice and millet, I alone munch on pigweed. Poverty has no treasures to play with, how can it be happy? The comfort shrine of the ancestors ends the search for happiness. The worshippers walk bearing bamboo book boxes, come out and change their clothes. My clothes have many servants, they are the calluses on my hands and feet. Some weed, some hoe, they moisten the body and expose the flesh. The path of friendship is severed, to enter the temple is to delay it (??).

and I gave up here, I think this text/poem is above my level.

>>23268178
That’a because French isn’t nearly as similar to Latin as Spanish is.

>>23273601
Nonsense. For reference, Italian is held to be the closest major language to Latin, and among the main members of the Romance family, French is its closest relative, sharing 89% of its vocabulary (the same amount as Spanish and Portuguese).
Classical authors simply used a lot of words that were displaced in the vernacular of the following centuries—you should look up the Reichenau glosses to get an idea. All the modern Romance languages had a reduced vocabulary when they started being written around 1000 AD, and the subsequent millennium fixed this through loans and coinages.
>Num, tibi cum faucis urit sitis, aurea quaeris pocula? Num esuriens fastidis omnia praeter pavonem rhombumque? Tument tibi cum inguina, num, si ancilla aut verna est praesto puer, impetus in quem continuo fiat. Malis tentigine rumpi?
No modern Romance speaker would be able to tell you what any of this means.

Chinese has its characters; Greek has its irregular verbal system; Latin has its word order. What are the primary difficulties of other classical languages?

Realizing while slapping this together how overwhelmingly masculine Sanskrit nouns are. A big part is that the abstract nouns that would be feminine in Greek or Latin are often masculine. Any books or articles on what process led to this?

I know it isn't exactly about classical languages, but is it a good idea to major in classics in university in the current day and age?

>>23274433
No.
Do it only if you can hear everyone tell you "no" and do it anyway with a clear mind, AND you have a coherent strategy for pivoting to something else.
The field may not exist in a short time from now. Classical languages are a very rewarding pursuit and a dying academic discipline.

>>23274442
>The field may not exist in a short time from now.
Absolutely idiotic statement. In Europe many other majors in humanities also rely on Classical Philology – unlike in the U.S., where apparently even history students don't need to prove to possess at least some ability in Latin. Classics are also still greatly respected and work together with neighboring fields such as history, classical archeology, philosophy, theology and sometimes also modern philologies.

>>23274351
Grammatical notes added. All I'm doing is modernizing Lanman's formatting and language. I'll provide a free PDF when I'm done. I'll also make a cheap POD edition if I can figure out how.
Should I do this for the other texts in his Reader as well (Hitopadesha and selections from Rgveda) or just the one?

What exactly is this saying here, in LLPSI Colloquia Personarum?
>Iiulius, qui prima tantum verba Davi audit, ex oppido discedit sine Medo.
Julius, who hears only the first few of Davus' words, leaves the city without Medus?

>>23274500
I read earlier today a news story about the Goethe University in Frankfurt cancelling a Latin professorship, reducing the number of professors in classics from 2 to 1. What used to be one chair for Latin and one for Greek will now become one for both. This is not an unusual story these days. These changes are somewhat slow because once a professor is hired, he will usually stay for a couple of decades; it is not that they are fired, but they are not replaced. I can see Latin staying somewhat alive in schooling for a while, as the middle class still likes to larp as Bildungsbürgertum, thinking that they are buying their kids some social credit by forcing them into Latin classes. But these people tend not to have many kids. It seems likely to me that, within my lifetime, Latin might take the role of what Greek is nowadays (very few kids take it, only a small number of schools even offers it), while Greek as good as dies out in schooling.

>>23274799
/lit/ academy when?

They should just get LLPSI enthusiasts to teach Latin, I am sure they'd do it for free
We can go from the moral and intellectual education that a grounding in grammar can provide to the new modern paradigm, one in which the only important results are the ability to consoooom content

>>23274700
>who hears only the first few of Davus' words
that sounds right, as in, he left after just hearing the first words

Don't worry: the Chinese and Indians will read our classics.

>>23274820
do you think it's easier to instill Seneca's moral values if you can read Latin fluently from having consoomed lots of easy literature, or from having to look up every other word?

>>23274799
Latin and Greek will survive in America due to religious people who homeschool their kids, teaching them Latin and Greek, or who send them to Catholic school, whereas Europeans are all atheists who have no kids.

>>23274865
It's not about the destination, it's about the journey
It's about self-discipline and cultivating virtue

>>23274875
I don't get how you cultivate virtue or self discipline less by using LLPSI as opposed to Wheelock's

>>23274799
>What used to be one chair for Latin and one for Greek will now become one for both.
Jesus fucking Christ, I apologize if I sounded too hostile in my reply. I didn't know the situation was that bad and assumed it to be primarily a problem in the Anglosphere and only lesser so in Europe, as I expected that most departments have at least 2-3 profs. Reminds me of my disappointment when I checked out the classics department of Tübingen recently, as it seemed not remotely comparable to what it once was (Schadewaldt, Szlezak etc.).

>>23274875
That is better done with math, or a noble art or hereditary trade, paired with clear moral examples and strict religious observance. Where texts come in, they can be memorized with meanings explained by an appropriate role mod.
You may not like the chinks and pajeets much but in the US their children turn out scrupulous, industrious, and traditional, where the white kids all turn fat and gay and dye their hair

>>23274871
Tell me more about Europe, Yank.

>>23274871
Euros will be learning Classical Arabic so they can read the Qu'ran

>>23275342
Good. Better than having no culture.

>>23275342
I suppose that's better than speaking in ebonics

It occurs to me that Modern Greek is ebonics.

>Πού είναι το κοντινότερο ξενοδοχείο
WHERE BE THE CLOSER HOTEL

>Λυπάμαι, δεν σας άκουσα καλά
REGRETS, I NUN' HEAR YOUSE GOOD

>>23275342
>>23275366
Pictured: immigrant anxiety caused by how increasingly obvious it is that they will all be killed or deported.

>>23275445
>Yet another philistine disparaging modern Greek

>>23274500
and yet you do not have a Classics degree, curious

>>23275445
Aren't all modern languages Ebonics? Romance ones definitely are.

I've been trying to find Latin classes around me, and there's nothing.

Would someone please remind me what the sub-Saharan African classical language is?

>>23275724
There are several, such as
>Mumbo-Jumbo
>Ooga-Booga
>*click* *pop* *gulp*

>>23275724
You could argue that Ge'ez fills the role of a classical language in Ethiopia. The parts of East Africa and West Africa that had organised society, such as Mogadishu and Timbuktu, would probably fall under Arabic.
Christians in Sudan/Nubia continued to use Old Nubian, Greek and Coptic for liturgical purposes and funerary inscriptions as late as the 14th century, however the Nubians are predominantly Muslim nowadays.
The rest of the continent hadn't discovered writing as of the late 19th century at the earliest.

What version of the Vulgate should I read? I'm not Catholic but I heard that the Vatican II is not good and Nova Vulgata was made by it

>>23274186
Classical Arabic: root system and highly infixing morphology
Sanskrit: highly synthetic

also the difficulty of CC is its high degree of ambiguity and lack of inflection, not characters

>>23274835
ironically almost all Latin classes in China are English-medium because there are no Chinese Latin teachers
(idk about Greek)

>>23276128
>The rest of the continent hadn't discovered writing as of the late 19th century at the earliest.
Swahili has been written since the early 1700s
the Timbuktu manuscripts use several African languages in their writing and some are as old as the 1200s

anyway the classical language of Sub-Saharan Africa is Classical Arabic because most texts were written using it, or imported using it

>>23276522
>Swahili has been written since the early 1700s
>the Timbuktu manuscripts use several African languages in their writing and some are as old as the 1200s
Neither of these fall under "rest of the continent" since I explicitly mentioned them.

>>23274799
There's something a bit similar at my university, although in my entire state mine is the only one to offer Classics and it's rather limited, especially with languages, there's only an intro to Latin class, while the professors all know Latin and one of them Greek these are the kind of guys to live and die on their seat and it seems unlikely they will have a replacement

What happened to the craze for Sanskrit on the other hand? It seems like up until some indeterminate point in the eighties every effete coastal intello was learning it. Why did it die down so when yoga classes and astrology bullshit are as popular as ever?

>>23256805
I decided to learn Middle English to learn an "ancient" language with as little effort as possible.

>>23276709
Which textbook?

can the nerds at perseus fix their goddamn site, this happens randomly every other day

>>23276709
If you aren't stupid reading middle English as a native English speaker should be very easy

>>23276700
instead of druggy musicians, tiktokers will need to push it along with ayahuasca, microdosing, and crystals

>>23276800
Yeah Perseus has gotten substantially worse in the past few weeks. Sucks.

>>23276800
>>23276918
https://latin-dict.github.io/list_greek.html
Use Verkerk, 2020: Morphologia Graeca

>>23275445
and they speak super fast too but don't actually get more information in than slower languages. aftos aftos stin makidonia inai ellada vro greece 50000 years history

>>23276800
it's been very weird. Often reloading works just a second after it fails. I wonder what's going on.

>>23276800
Perseus has been that way for years. Great resource but terrible implementation. Part of it is due to the complexity of what they are hosting and offer but part of it is ineptitude in design and coding. It has always been an ugly mess to look at and a pain to use. A shame because it truly offers excellent resources

>>23276927
added this to the links in the FAQ

>>23276275
NV is good because it has actual good punctuation, and follows the better manuscripts we have found. Trads will seethe because it strays from "tradition" but if it was a mistake back then, then why continue following a wrongly translated verse or word? Jerome was amazing but he did make a few mistakes. The NV also corrects verses that make no sense in Latin or just rewrite the verse so it has the same meaning but isn't a calque.

Which is easier, Old Greek or Latin? I'm assuming Latin because I don't have to relearn the alphabet

>>23277130
alphabet is a meme difficulty, you learn it in a week
Greek is harder because less cognates and I think the verb system really kicks ass compared to Latin; maybe the latter has arguably a more difficult syntax on average

>FAQ recommends Pharr
>Pharr is just telling me to "learn"
>I am not learning anything
???

>ipsa se virtus satis ostendit; illis artificio opus est, ut turpia facta oratione tegant, neque litteras Graecas didici: parum placebat eas discere, quippe quae ad virtutem doctoribus nihil profuerant
graecissatrices....

does anyone have a pdf of this book?

Is this good if you speak French?

>>23276128
Is Ge'ez the only one with actual stuff to read and imitate in writing?

>>23276752
Fulk, Introduction to Middle English
Turville-Petre, Book of Middle English

>>23277654
I wouldn't know.

>>23277637
J'ai utilisé le cours de latin d'Assimil. C'était pas mal, mais ce serait mieux de l'utiliser après avoir complété un autre manuel.

>>23277637
If you like the Assimil method, yeah. The audio is very bad unfortunately.

>>23277130
The alphabet is literally nothing. You can memorize it tonight even if you're a total retard.

Would older Chinese literature, like the Classics, lose any meaning if the words were in Pinyin? Apparently even the simplified characters are dumb and China should make Pinyin the official spelling, according to pic.

>>23277130
if you choose greek, i hope you like participles

>>23277787
yes it woul be incomprehensible
i.e. this sentence from the analects
子曰:「道千乘之國:敬事而信,節用而愛人,使民以時。」
Zǐ yuē: "dào qiān chéng zhī guó: jìng shì ér xìn, jié yòng ér ài rén, shǐ mín yǐ shí."
even if you are very familiar with CC it would be difficult to understand this and much more ambiguous than were it using characters (because CC is mostly mono-character words)
for instance the word chéng could mean chariot or city (here it means chariot)
the interpretations "state of 1000 cities" and "state of 1000 chariots" are both equally valid and would change the implied meaning of the sentence a lot (1000 cities = all of China/the world, 1000 chariots = moderately sized state)

>>23277756
Is there any better audio for reconstructed Greek?

Anyone have the answer key for Epitome Historiae Sacrae?

>>23277787
First, pinyin for what pronunciation? I am being deliberately obtuse here to highlight that CC, also called Literary Sinitic, is the historical language of a number of nations and an influence on a larger number of living languages. It is read today in the pronunciation of all those languages. It cannot be simply phoneticized without breaking that millennia-long international chain of communication. Furthermore, all possible phoneticizations would add to the language's already very great ambiguity.
All of this has nothing to do with Modern Chinese, which may well trend in the long term towards a hybrid pinyin/sinogram system. We will however see no such strong changes during our lifetimes.

>>23278469
The funny thing is that this particular case of ambiguity arose only because of the erosion of literary readings. In Taiwan, where many literary readings are retained, 乘 is read "chéng" only for the verbal meaning of "to ride," and "shèng" for the nominal meaning of "war chariot."

>>23278488
bald man has them on his patreon

>>23270469
ἀφελληνίζω - to hellenize, i.e. to civilize

It's coming along

In IAST for those of you who are peepeepoopoo and won't learn Devanagari

bitch I just want to read latin why do I need to learn pentamic hexameter

>>23279002
Not like it's hard.

>>23279002
>pentamic hexameter

>>23279002
>>23279245
Anon does clearly not read poems in english yet
For ancient works, much lesser our friend does know

>>23276508
>also the difficulty of CC is its high degree of ambiguity
So you're telling me all CC reads like Hemingway or an ancient Kawabata novel? Thank fucking God I'm not learning CC.

>>23280188
>Hemingway
>ambiguous

>>23280211
Yeah, that's the whole point of his writing style. I don't really like it, but if you actually think his books are just what they appear to be on the surface, then you're mistaken.

>>23280188
There is stylistic ambiguity and there is syntactic ambiguity. Not all CC authors have the former: Han Feizi and Mozi are very clear and direct. All CC authors however have the latter, because that is a feature of the language.
A more direct explanation: 事 can mean
>n. A matter
>v. To make into/consider as a matter
>v. To serve
>v. To cause to serve
>v. To be served
>v. To be caused to serve
>Any nominalized phrase containing one of the above verbs as its head
None of this is unusual, but in other major classical languages, this is often distinguished by inflection. Classical Chinese largely does not inflect, so which meaning is being used must always be taken from context.
Laozi is highly ambiguous and Han Feizi is highly clear. Compare:
>The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. (Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all things.
>Thy servant has heard: "Who knows not but speaks, is not wise. Who knows but speaks not, is not loyal. Any minister, if not loyal, must be condemned to death. If what he speaks be not true, he must be condemned to death, too." However, thy servant begs to speak all he has heard and entreats Your Majesty to convict him of whatever crime.
These are clearly two different styles. However, they both use the same language with the same features.

>>23278429
I love Greek participles so much it's vnreal

>>23278975
>>23278997
Good morning sir be doing the needful and releasing the pdf yes please send pdf saar

以 is the worst part of cc I hate it so much

>Conrad Gessner's Historiae Animalium
Cool book.

>>23280417
>Classical Chinese largely does not inflect
Forgive the layman question, but how would CC inflect at all when it uses logographs?

>>23280731
Through use of suffixing and prefixing
I.e. modern Chinese 们 plural suffix
我/我们 - I/we
Modern Chinese 性 adjective to noun suffix (among others) and 可 prefix "can"
靠/可靠/可靠性 - to rely/reliable/reliability

>>23274433
Unless youre double majoring in something that will make you money, don't.

I have a dual in Classics/Philosophy and an M.A in Phil. Biggest waste of time ever. Also, if you are in the U.S, all of the classes in Classics besides the basic language learning classes are "Hermeneutics of Female presenting persons on their monthly biological cycles in Antiquity" or "Deconstruction of the Whiteness of platonic forms". Its all garbage, its all shit, and after the 70's generation dies or retires you are left with women, and only women, who are into the classics because they were nerds and losers in high school. Unironically, this forum is the only place for classicists. Europe might be different, can't say. But stay far the fuck away from the humanities in the U.S anon, its over, its dead.

>>23274433
1) if you are going to a prestigious uni, yes
2) if you know people, yes
3) if you are working class, no. Study on your own time.

>>23256805
ask me anything about ON

>>23259776
in the case of "Vikings" and similar media, it's completely irrelevant to the language they approach, and they decide to hop onto the bandwagon for retarded reasons, as the media is completely ahistorical to the point there's no "artistic freedom" argument to even be made; every single part is just pure, distilled misinformation

>>23264209
Old English the largest body of verse in a vernacular language from the early medieval period (~30,000 lines) as well as a prose corpus of almost 2 million words.

>>23280985
hi Norsefren
if you could provide some basic resources to add to the FAQ for ON that'd be nice t. OP

If you're working class, major in something safe and upwardly mobile. You will not be able to integrate into the effete intellectual crowd, nor would it be worth it if you could. Those people do nothing but collect neuroses, and rarely reproduce. The babies they do make end up sick and unable themselves to continue their line. Edify yourself on evenings and weekends and take solace in the fact that your children will inherit the earth.

>>23281024
I don't know of any good English-language resources, but NION is supposedly the best (can't verify as I've never used it myself), albeit not beginner-friendly. If you're a thinking man, like me, Fritzner's dictionary is the thinking man's dictionary.

>>23280985
I was interested in learning Old Norse but the translations into Europeans languages like French or the Germanic ones seem quite excellent. How much does Norse literature lose out in translation in your opinion? I know that that much poetry exists, but most of Norse literature seems very simple (although in a very charming and pure way).

>>23281036
meds

>>23274442
>>23280851
>>23280862
>>23281036
Thanks for the advice anons, I suppose I'll go for a degree in engineering and milk it to nourish my pursuit of classical studies.

>>23281108
>How much does Norse literature lose out in translation in your opinion?
Prose? Nothing really, if I were to venture a guess, but I can't speak for languages I don't speak, nor specific translations; different authors and their own understandings and perceptions matter too, and not just the languages they transfer contents between.

Poetry? Yeah, nah, maybe a Scandinavian language (Brate's translations are actually good, as he preserves the meter), but yeah, nah.
The incel poem is a classic. Can't transfer that well.

>>23281179
kek that img. reminds me of georgics.

>>23281179
thank you for the reply
i might give brate a try someday once my swedish is sufficient

>>23281200
based

>>23281179
>The incel poem
?

>>23281024
There are 3 textbooks which are relevant for English speakers
The first is E.V Gordon's Introduction to Old Norse
The second is the New Introduction to Old Norse
The third is Old Icelandic an Introductory Course
Apparently the E.V Gordon book is very good if you know Latin or Ancient Greek already but I don't get it
It's a reader + a grammar but the grammar is less than 60 pages long and contains no example sentences outside of the discussion of metre
The bulk of it is just showing the inflections

Do any anons here understand why this might be good?
I still feel like someone who knew a highly inflected language would want to learn the basics by being hand held through example sentences and simple texts before diving into real Old Norse

>>23281335
There's this excellent pair of lines recurring in Gamanvísur ("verses of joy"), that basically end every stanza, and they go like this:
>þó lætr Gerðr í Gǫrðum
>gollhrings við mér skolla.
Which can be translated roughly to:
>and yet, the wealthy woman in Kiev ridicules/denies me.

>>23281521
While I cannot vouch for any English language resources apart from NION (well, not me, but my mentor, as I'd like to call him), I'd say such grammars are sufficient as long as they're accurate. You need to know declension paradigms for various stems, and the exceptions there are, and then you're good to go to navigate a text and a dictionary on your own. So when you see "hvn setr eína stora ponnu a elld" ("she places a big pan on the fire"), you know that the lemma is 'panna' and that we're dealing with a feminine ōn-stem, and you can consult the dictionary accordingly.

This is, after all, how you learn any language, pretty much.

>>23264338
for me, it's going through disputes over who owns what land

>>23264229
Ιs it by Charles Jones? I was reading a bit of his introduction and it mentions that.

>Cornēlius, quī sōlus equō vehitur, interrogat equum: “Cūr servus mē nōn salūtat, sed tacet neque respondet?” Equus verba dominī audit neque verbum respondet, sed tantum “Hihihī!” − nam equus verba nōn habet!
KEK

>>23281948
I don't get it.

>>23281730
I prefer a progressive kind of textbook with lots of modern Old Norse text and repetition so that you can acquire the basics of the language and hopefully get to the point where you're only required to search up a few words/phrases per sentence and not have to parse it in order to understand it
>>23281748
The only one I've encountered so far is Egill's idiotic and pathetic money-grubbing

>>23281998
>modern Old Norse text
?????

>>23282073
Old Norse written by the authors of the textbook
Old Icelandic an Introductory Course has some but nowhere near enough

>>23282073
I think he's not talking about "authentical" texts but rather new Old Norse texts composed for didactical purposes

>>23282086
>>23282091
but for what purpose? why internalize that? just pick up a dictionary and start reading native texts
you wouldn't learn Old English by reading something Anglo-Saxons didn't write
okay, Tolkien's OE is crazy good, but that's because he knows what he's doing

>>23281948
Bet the guy who wrote this is a hundred year old fart.

>>23278566
Bump

>>23281097
>>23281521
ok lads I think I will add the following then for starters?

A New Introduction to Old Norse, by Michael Barnes
Introduction to Old Norse, by E.V Gordon
Old Icelandic: An Introductory Course, by Sigrid Valfells

as for dictionaries, I think I found this Fritzner's dictionary but is there an english version?

>>23283136
Apparently all the English dictionaries are inferior to the German/Scandinavian dictionaries
There are two English dictionaries which are popular
A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic and An Icelandic-English Dictionary by Cleasby and Vigfusson
I have been using the 2nd one and it's pretty decent

>Greek subjunctive is just a lengthening of the theme vowel
honestly I'm enjoying Greek so far, it feels less arbitrary than Latin

>>23280424
nigger

>>23283209
I do not expect that will last.
What's the subjunctive like in Latin? In Sanskrit it is also just a lengthening of the theme vowel, so I'd rather expect that to be pan-IE

>>23277159
https://commons.mtholyoke.edu/hrgs/

>>23283258
In broad terms, latin changes non-a stem verbs into something like an a stem verb. And a stem verbs turn to an e stem. The conjugation changes a little bit too in the first person to -m

>>23283392
amat (he loves) vs ut amet (so that he loves)

>>23265573
Just put it out there on the Internet, and as >>23265660 said if it's good then word of mouth will spread.

>>23267541
>If anyone does not believe in Venus, they should gaze at my girlfriend.
Aww, that's actually really sweet.

>>23273704
French has a lot of vocabulary in common with Italian, but it's very innovative phonologically and grammatically (I've heard it may be starting to evolve polypersonal agreement).

>>23274820
>>23274865
>>23274875
This is silly. The point of learning a language is to know that language. If you want to teach morality, teach morality.

>>23283562
go consoom harry potter in latin elsewhere

>>23275445
Every later form of language looks dumb to those familiar with an earlier form, because it's not what they're used to. And yet humans have been speaking for hundreds of thousands of years, so if all languages was did was degenerate we'd all just be grunting at each other by now.

Old Norse and especially Old English are not classical languages. There's no actual living tradition.

>>23276512
And apparently a lot of CC classes in the west are Mandarin-medium, because it's essentially treated like advanced Mandarin rather than the distinct language it is.

>>23283577
>we'd all just be grunting at each other by now.
Anon...I have some news for you...

>>23277787
If you Romanized it in Mandarin pronunciation, it would be too ambiguous. If you Romanized it as it was pronounced when it was written, however, it probably wouldn't be, as many words that are homophones now were distinct at the time.

>>23283392
Does Latin have an optative? That looks similar to the way the optative forms to me, or maybe it also originates in a simple theme vowel lengthening that became a different vowel as time went on.
Compare:
Bhavati, bhavāti/bhavāt, bhavet (ind., subj. and opt. in Sanskrit), the theme vowel "a" in the optative eats an ī and so becomes an "e"; Greek also does this but generally abstains from digesting the i.
Since Greek later lost the optative and mixed the functions of both into the subjunctive, and Sanskrit lost the subjunctive and mixed its functions and conjugations into the imperative, it would make sense for the Latin version to be a muddle somehow.

>>23278576
>It cannot be simply phoneticized without breaking that millennia-long international chain of communication.
Some sort of diaphonemic spelling could at least be equally pronounceable for everyone who reads the text as it's written rather than converting/glossing it.

>>23280188
Not necessarily. It is possible to be clear in CC, to someone with a good grasp of the language. There were even treatises on logic written in it. Also parallelism often helps with syntactic ambiguity.

>>23283597
the optative mostly doesn't exist. Sum has an obscure old form that's optative but I think that's it.

>>23283581
this definitely isn't a universal thing because there are lots of English-language CC textbooks, and my CC lessons are in English

>>23283583
The fact that you are even able to specifically communicate the proposition that we are only grunting at each other implies that we are doing something above the level of grunting.

>>23283613
Yes, it's not universal, but it seems to be somewhat common. It's also common to have Mandarin as a prerequisite for Classical Chinese, where they'd never have Italian as a prerequisite for Latin.

Sorry I'm at chapter 8 of Athenaze where Philippos dreams he's in Athens and I can only roughly parse this sentence. Any help?

from Ἀεὶ γὰρ to ἀποβλέπουσιν please.

>>23283589
I thought that we only have educated guesses about what the pronounciations of the words was back then?

>>23283580
They need love too anon

>>23283646
>It's also common to have Mandarin as a prerequisite for Classical Chinese
I think this makes more sense, because of characters and shit, you want students to progress through it fairly quickly rather than spending ages teaching characters to them. and 90% of anyone who wants to take CC classes is also taking Mandarin so it would just be 10% of students who have no experience with characters and no vocab holding everyone back

>>23283666
For Old Chinese, it's on somewhat shakier ground. For Middle Chinese (which already has minimal homophone issues), however, we have the phonemic system laid out in rhyme books, it's just the exact phonetic realization that's less certain. But my thinking was spell with as many distinctions as possible, and let people ignore the distinctions their variety doesn't make, kind of like English spelling.
>>23283694
I dunno, the state of things seems to be kind of bad. See e.g. this piece
https://web.archive.org/web/20190731185954/http:/www.umass.edu/wsp/resources/classical/primer/front/satire.html

>>23283653
liberally:
"For these kind of women always inspect themselves carefully, and are on the look out for anyone looking towards them, often they even turn their eyes towards their own shadows"
I actually recall this passage giving me some trouble as well, mostly I guess because of the finer difference between these two composites of σκοπέω

>>23283796
ah thank you, that makes more sense that what I had in mind.

>>23283565
Who needs Harrius Potter when we've got Hobbitus Ille

>>23283735
>https://web.archive.org/web/20190731185954/http:/www.umass.edu/wsp/resources/classical/primer/front/satire.html
lole
anyway, as I already said I think there are very few people who would want to go straight into CC classes without studying any Mandarin, so it makes little sense for universities to offer starting-from-zero CC classes
my university has mandatory CC classes in second year, and optional in 3rd and 4th with much more depth
ironically only a few people in this class enjoy CC and most of them see it as a chore forced on them that they have no interest in

>But my thinking was spell with as many distinctions as possible, and let people ignore the distinctions their variety doesn't make, kind of like English spelling.
this exists btw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Chinese

>>23283871
>anyway, as I already said I think there are very few people who would want to go straight into CC classes without studying any Mandarin, so it makes little sense for universities to offer starting-from-zero CC classes
You could at least offer it as an option for those studying an East Asian language besides Mandarin.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Chinese
Yes, that's mostly what I was thinking of, though there's some aspects of it I'd have done a bit differently.

>>23283871
>anyway, as I already said I think there are very few people who would want to go straight into CC classes without studying any Mandarin, so it makes little sense for universities to offer starting-from-zero CC classes
This is a function of the fact that there are few people who want to study classical languages anymore. I once had an unpleasant one night stand with a girl who was the only student in her entire year taking Ancient Greek. Just one on one with the professor in the dusty skeleton of a department left to him. Automatically won every award since it still had to act like a department for some reason.
This wasn't the case when classics thrived. There are stories of Harvard professors who knew no modern Chinese writing rigorous commentaries on the classics. Whether or not this is a good thing is to be debated.

>>23283917
>I once had an unpleasant one night stand with a girl who was the only student in her entire year taking Ancient Greek.
Can I ask what made it so unpleasant? It seems like the sort of girl who would take Ancient Greek ought to be pretty cool.
>Just one on one with the professor in the dusty skeleton of a department left to him.
I was in an Ancient Greek class with one other person; there was a third at the beginning but she dropped it pretty quickly.

>>23283597
The Latin subjunctive appears to be a descendant of the PIE optative.
https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/1996
This is why it has optative functions (pure optative, expressing possibility or contingency, fear clauses [something the subjunctive can also do in Greek], expressing conditions in dependent clauses). Besides these, it mostly mirrors the Greek subjunctive.

>>23283945
>Can I ask what made it so unpleasant? It seems like the sort of girl who would take Ancient Greek ought to be pretty cool.
Totally unrelated factors. I wasn't living my best life then and neither was she.

>>23283866
I got this book years ago when I first tried to teach myself latin in high school. I never got around to reading it since by the time I could, I just wanted to read more authentic stuff. Is the translation half decent? If it is I might read it for a little bit of extra practice.

Any Ankichads here with cool setups?
Found this which I thought was pretty cool but of hardly any use with classical languages in mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4t7HYS73ZQ

>>23280696
>ancient Latin only used the letter V, this only has U
Also, why do later authors use u/v and i/j in such autistic ways, sometimes opposite than what I would expect, i.e., vniuersum instead of universum?

>>23284865
sosekiproject.org is a good application of classical language methods for the dekinai-tachi

>>23284999
Because there was zero conception of standardization other than "this is how X wrote", and basically no one had Latin as their first language and as such they parsed grammar and phonology through their first language, leading to gazillions of different schemas.

>>23284999
U and V were just considered typograhical variants of one letter, as were I and J. Sort of like what long S used to be in English.

How difficult is pic related?
Who are the Cicero/Caesar of Greek Christian writings?

>>23285212
I'd also like an answer to this

>Verba Mēdī ā Lydiā laetā audiuntur.
Newb question. Does this mean "Medus' words are heard gladly/with joy by Lydia", or "Medus' words are heard by Lydia (who is glad)"?

>>23285404
Joy as a noun is “laetitia”, “laetus” is always an adjective, so the latter

imagine some modern Greek going to ancient greece.
>που ειναι αι λευκαι γυναικες νιγγα;

>>23285425
That makes sense. Thanks.

>>23285212
I don't think it's that hard once you get used to all the Christian theological terms
Cicero: Demosthenes + Plato
Caesar: Xenophon

>>23285212
>edited and translation by Bart D. Ehrman

>>23283635
fr tell this yboi mf ass

How does one get learned in regards to poetry? French, English, doesn't matter. Just the fundamentals of how it works.

>>23285440
lmfao
I have an older edition done by a Kirsopp Lake, would recommend choose it instead of Ehrman's gaytheist slop.

>>23285447
Why are you asking the classics thread and not the poetry one?
In any case, learn your own language's tradition first, then learn another and learn its. Identify major figures and then read their influences. Asking how to get into poetry is kind of like asking how to get into music.

>>23285440
Is that a problem?
I didn't even notice it
>>23285432
Does it make sense to study the vocabulary separately or in context with texts like these?

Who are the best poets in Latin?
I am 89% sure I will learn Latin as my next language but I haven't actually read any Latin literature before besides the Eclogues

>>23286793
>Does it make sense to study the vocabulary separately or in context with texts like these?
Studying in context is probably always better. I recc you write down sentences with vocab you want to memorize them down in a book. Memorizing poetry is an effective way to learn vocab too for this reason. Still you might just want to write down specific words, and especially for the more common words, this doesn't hurt.
If you're interested in Xenophon I would recc the Cyropaideia first instead of the Anabasis. Bedwere has a very good audiobook.

>>23286831
I like Horace and Lucretius.

>>23286831
which subjects do you like?

>>23283961
ah, right, thanks for the confirmation anon

>>23285440
>>23285448
What's wrong with Ehrman? As in what specifically does he do wrong in that edition?

Everyone in here needs to read Palladas ASAP. Probably the most based Greek author ever.

οὐδὲν σωφροσύνης τεκμήριόν ἐστι πρόδηλον:
τοῖς ἐμπαιζομένοις ἀνδράσι ταῦτα λέγω.
οὔτε τὸ δύσμορφον πάντως ἀνύποπτον ὑπάρχει,
οὔτ᾽ ἀκολασταίνειν πᾶσα πέφυκε καλή,
καὶ γάρ τις διὰ τὴν ὥραν τοῖς πολλὰ διδοῦσιν
οὐχ ἕπεται: πολλὰς δ᾽ ἔστι γυναῖκας ἰδεῖν
οὐχὶ καλὰς τὴν ὄψιν, ὀπυιομένας ἀκορέστως,
καὶ τοῖς χ;χρησαμένοις πολλὰ χαριζομένας.
οὐκ εἴ τις συνάγει τὰς ὀφρύας, οὐδὲ γελῶσα
φαίνεται, ὀφθῆναὶ τ᾽ ἀνδράσιν ἐκτρέπεται,
σωφροσύνης τρόπος οὗτος ἐχέγγυος: ἀλλά τις εὕροι
μαχλάδα; μὲν κρύβδην τὴν πάνυ σεμνοτάτην,
τὰς δ᾽ ἱλαρὰς καὶ πᾶσι φιλανθρώπως προσιούσας
σώφρονας, εἰ σώφρων ἐστὶ γυνή τις ὅλως.
ἡλικίᾳ τοίνυν τάδε κρίνεται; ἀλλ᾽ Ἀφροδίτης
οἴστρων εἰρήνην οὐδὲ τὸ γῆρας ἔχει.
ὅρκοις λοιπὸν ἄγει τε πεποίθαμεν ἀλλὰ μεθ᾽ ὅρκον
ζητεῖν ἔστι θεοὺς δώδεκα και † νερεου.

>>23287635
Yeah, in a thread on classical languages, I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison or argument about his tranlations than an "oh but he's a atheist" dismissals.

>>23286831
>Who are the best poets in Latin?
Catullus
Vergilius
Ovidius
Horatius
Those are the poets that almost all other poets imitate.

>>23288112
You forgot Propertius

Certain uses of τις in Greek and Man in German make me hate English. You always have to translate them so awkwardly, and the English equivalent people colloquially use, "You" sounds retarded.

>>23288037
>>23287635
Idk I don't even read the translations (the Greek is easier to read most of the time for the earlier translations and the new ones are mostly 5th grade reading level slop), but he's a gaytheist so that's enough for me to dismiss him. His edition is probably all fucked up too, omitting all references to Jesus as God / whatever else he wants to deboonk.

>>23288135
"He probably makes shit up" is some pretty lousy shit to make up

>>23288128
Why not just read it, then, and don't bother translating it to English?

>>23288128
"One"

Why is Πλάτων when Anglicized have the ν dropped to become Plato? Platon is easy to say. Same with Ἀριστοτέλης dropping the ς.

>>23288235
because Plato in English came via Latin which dropped the n
idk why for Aristotle because his name was rendered correctly as Aristoteles in Latin

>>23288128
One
As in, "One does not simply walk into Mordor"
Or "what does one do in these situations"

>>23288244
So why was Plato Latinized without the n? It's not hard to say Platon, and Platon doesn't sound like Plato.

Ok so which greek pronunciation should I learn ?

>>23288294
>So why was Plato Latinized without the n?
Why was Cicero Hellenized with an n in Greek texts naming him? That's just how languages work, people follow the arbitrary customs according to how they would speak their own language.

>>23288352
classical attic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345vhzHBimQ

>>23288196
>>23288284
One does not get across everything that τις does

>>23288352
Just use modern greek, it has sounds like both english THs, is a convenient standard so you don't have to focus on autistic dispute about different reconstructions and erasmian, and gives a nice med flavor. It's kind of like what italianate is to Latin

>>23288389
Face it, you're just geeking out over your TL.

>>23288441
What about issues with homophony?

>>23288456
the only serious one is ἡμεῖς (us) and ὑμεῖς (ye), which can mostly be resolved by the conjugation of the verb. Unless you want to be a speaker (in which case use reconstructed as that's what most speakers use) it won't be an issue, the words will still have their original orthography on the page.

>>23288472
What about the inflected forms of verbs that are merged?

>>23288476
Only an issue really if you're a speaker, in which case use the reconstructed so you can talk to more impootGODs

>>23288488
What's wrong with speaking? It helps with reading fluency.

>>23288494
I mean in terms of talking, I had the lone reader who might read aloud in mind. I just know not everyone is one of the "Living Language" sort.
Also pronunciation debate killed the thread, coincidence?

Is there any pronunciation that's completely different from the others ? Like with latin if you undersand restored you can understand ecclesiastical just fine.
I don't want to learn a complete meme pronunciation.

>>23288294
Latin doesn't natively have third declension non-neuter nouns ending in a m or n and when they translitterated names they tried to keep it as close as possible
Aristoteles doesn't cause the same problem as -s is fine

>>23288542
Completely different? The first thing that comes to mind is traditional English pronunciation, in which the Lord's Prayer begins /ˈpeJtəɹ ˈnɑstəɹ kwaJ ɛs Jn ˈsilJs sæŋktJfəˈsitəɹ ˈnoʊmen ˈtjuəm/

NOVVM
>>23288574
>>23288574
>>23288574

>>23288352
Ideally, you should have a sense if not a command of multiple schemes. Poetic meter is very important and modern pronunciation excises that almost entirely. It's also important to know how the language evolved.
I personally use modern for prose and reconstructed for poetry.