/lit/ - Literature

>>23255136
Maybe you should ask yourself why Schopenhauer didn't

/thread

>if schopenhauer is right
Oh, that's easy, he isn't. Hope this helps OP!

>>23255136
Schopenhauer said that you can still enjoy life with music and beauty. That's what he did, he was playing flute and walking in nature everyday. Obviously he found enough enjoyment in this and so do I

>>23255146
>>Schopenhauer said that you can still enjoy life with music and beauty
typically atheist full of spleen but who goes back to hedonism as soon as he can.

>>23255150
Exactly.
>suffering is bad so you should avoid it at all costs and just indulge in pleasures and art!
If Schopenhauer was alive today he would be a redditfag basedboy who only lives to play videogames and consume goyslop movies

>>23255179
*soi boy.
/lit/ jannies are fucking troons and their word-filters are retarded

>>23255150
>muh atheism!!
you have a holy war to fight?

Schopenhauer or Nietzsche being right has no bearing on what you ought to do with your life philosophylet. There's a reason why the is-ought problem is still unresolved.

>>23255185
>anon criticized atheists so he must be Christian!
does it ever hurt to be this retarded

>>23255187
Explain what the is-ought problem is and why it isn’t resolved

>>23255188
Yes most likely, the complete anti-atheist stance these days is overblown trendy bullshit pushed by theist retards. They so badly want to stuff atheism inside a clearly defined box, which you can't, because it only means you don't believe in god or believe in god in the mainstream way.

>>23255192
I won't spoonfeed you, there are tonnes of interesting videos and articles for that sort of thing. Come back when you at least understand the basic problem.

>>23255195
>theist
Anyone who says this is a Redditor faggot, you’ve exposed yourself and lost all credibility just because of this, but I’ll still entertain you nonetheless.
>anti-atheist stance is pushed by theist retards
You’re just wrong. A large portion of the people that make fun of cringe atheists like you are also atheist, or former atheists, and they’re simply fatigued with your constant bitching and moaning and the fact that you haven’t evolved past your 2000s nu-atheist phase

>>23255136
if nietzsche is right, why dont you just start fucking men?
if will to power is correct, why not contribute to neo-modernity by transitioning? what's the point of following linear moral paths?

>>23255136
>life bad = death good
Have you tried not being a simpleton?

>>23255183
>>23255179
>/pol/turd out himself as a newfag
everytime

>>23255230
>/lit/fag finds some way to bring up /pol/
everytime

>>23255206
>Anyone who says this is a Redditor faggot,
Look how riled up you are! As if I would take someone like you seriously.

>>23255213
You've never read Nietzsche

It would help if you actually read him. He was all for trying to live a comfortable life

Isn't transitioning a sort of "creative expression"? Suppressing your innate expressive desires is a trait akin to the low or the non-aristocratic class. The true aristocratic creative expression lies in domination and pursuit of power by all means necessary. After all denying your sex is like denying yourself and that is like denying life.

>>23255136
It doesn't take a genius of deep thought to realize that the bulk of life is pain and suffering, competition and struggle is the base level of existance and fuels the afformentioned feelings. To escape this is the highest possible aspiration of any well meaning individual. No this is not an advocation for hedonism, it is praise for peace. Schopenhauer realized this and also realized that conflict is inevitable due to human's nature, but he got kinda bummed about it and doomposted a little much. But he still surrounded himself with stuff he enjoyed and tried to lessen the impact of natural suffering, which we all could emulate. But then we have psychopaths and clinical contrarians who get of by either causing mayhem or disagreeing with even the meekest of axioms.

>>23255187
Schopenhauer solved it, though.
Read The World as Will and Representation.

>>23255136
I fully accept the premise that life is more suffering than not. Even with this roof over my head and enough money to live without work for at least a year, I suffer and feel it's all meaningless.

The human survival instinct is rather strong and at this very moment my life isn't so bad. Of course I know it's going to get worse as my health deteriorates or my living conditions worsens. This is inescapable and will happen to all of us.

When it's worse I'll reevaluate my decision and will always leave the option of suicide open.

>>23255136
Because if pessimism is correct, all people should commit suicide, not just one.

>>23255587
Because if optimism is correct, all people should be happy, not just a few. Do you understand how retarded you sound?

>>23255136
I would rather be put to death by God

>>23255602
If optimism is correct, everyone should also commit suicide.

>>23255136
>if schopenhauer is right, why dont you just kill yourself?
I am a procrastinator.

>>23255136
>what is self preservation instinct
>what is potential afterlife
Are you legit retarded?
By the way, i have same questions to you?

>>23255138
>i said so
>reddity passive agressive tone
You sure showed everyone, the fact that you really need to learn to shut up.

>>23255150
Life has no meaning with or without existence of so called god.

>>23255179
>>suffering is bad
Yes it indeed is, retarded faggot.

>>23255230
>turd
>muh /pol/
Unironic reddit refugee.

>>23255260
Transaberrations want to impose social acceptance stemming from their resentment towards organic social customs. I think there is absolutely nothing of this vileness in someone who simply expressed thus in a subjective way, indifferent to the acceptance of others and society.

>>23255136
Because, even though suicide is rational, we don’t live only by reason. We are mind and body, one pulling toward reason, the other toward nature. Life is denied, but it is also desired.

>>23255661
>one pulling toward reason, the other toward nature
That's mental illness and unlike Schopenhauer. We don't will our will and always do our will. Imagine an alcoholic raising the bottle to his mouth while thinking he shouldn't: complete lunacy.

>Life is denied, but it is also desired.
That's the same. Denying = affirming. Antinatalists love life more than anyone else because they're preoccupied with life as much as a malnourished person thinks about food.

>>23255700
Restraining passions that would lead to social incompatibilities is mental illness? Do you do whatever you feel like doing for pleasure, curiosity, etc.?
I’m not addressing whatever Schopenhauer believed, but a justification of pessimism and avoiding suicide as in OP.
> Imagine an alcoholic raising the bottle to his mouth while thinking he shouldn't
This is literally common, not only with addiction but normal people as well. What the fuck are you on about?
>that’s the same
Wanting to live is the same as wanting to not live? Yes, they love life and hate it, but for different reasons.

>>23255602
>Do you understand how retarded you sound?
Do you?

>>23255780
you are too retarded to even offer a counter, are you a child that repeats words because you think they are the best insults?

>>23255602
I think I could consider myself a pessimist but what you said has nothing to do with optimism. It is grounded more on metaphysical, theological and eschatological considerationd than hedonistic ones.

>>23255732
>This is literally common
Yes mental illnness is common. People are brainwashed with duality.
>Yes, they love life and hate it, but for different reasons.
No for the same reason: they're comparing inadequate ideas of what ought-to-be with inadequate perceptions of what is.

>>23255798
Lmao more useless word games. So now being happy is metaphysical, what about being sad, is that metaphysical too?

>>23255812
Wow you are really, like, REALLY retarded. I’m just saying that the arguments in favor of optimism are not grounded on pleasure and psychological states, they implicate future promises, pragmatic reasoning, metaphysical and theological issues. These justify not being happy here and now and still being optimistic about the world and its metaphysical implications.

>>23255817
I could say the same thing about the arguments in favour of pessimism not being grounded on despair and psychological states and what a retarded thing it would be to say, but you talk like a christcuck so i understand why you would say that.

>>23255803
It is common to be contradicted by two opposite inclinations. Thinking that you want something but considering the objections and displeasures it can cause afterwards. You should try reading the Republic and thinking a bit more, especially on the Leontius tale. If you have never experienced this then you are closer to an animal than to man.
>duality
Do you really think that because contradiction exists therefore there must needs be grounded on two foundational principles? People are brainwashed by any phony metaphysics.
>they are comparing inadequate ideias of what ought-to-be with inadequate perceptions of what is.
I don’t know how being aware of suffering (individually, collectivelly or historically) is an inadequate perception.

>>23255823
You could say whatever you feel like saying about anything I’m not addressing in my posts, just like you weren’t either. But here we go:
> I could say the same thing about the arguments in favour of pessimism not being grounded on despair and psychological states
And some really aren’t. Like the optimistic counterpart it can also be argued for through philosophical issues. Philosophical materialism can ground pessimism too.

>>23255136
I have to fuck a 10/10 girl before commit suicide

>>23255849
Arguing about it philosophically doesn't change anything, are you too thick to see this? You can write 1000 page books about it and you will still shift btn the two views depending on the trials you struggle with through life. You need to get out of your nicely constructed juvenile philosophical cocoons and live in the real world.

>>23255136
>LIFE BAD
>tries to seduce a 16 year old girl with fucking grapes
>fails
>WOMEN BAD

>>23255834
>opposite inclinations
You want to be healthy but you want to go to McDonalds. That's ignorance, delusion, dishonesty. There's nothing in your sensory experience that is conflicting. Your mouth doesn't salivate and dry up simultaneously. What's happening is thoughts labeling sensory experiences and more thoughts labeling other thoughts as conflicting.

>I don’t know how being aware of suffering (individually, collectivelly or historically) is an inadequate perception.
Suffering involves a lot of ignorant judgement. It's how thoughts label sensory experience as if thoughts are of a higher truth than sensory experience itself.

>>23255862
I’m not addressing the merit of these philosophical, metaphysical, epistemological considerations, of whether they assure belief in an special way or not, I’m just saying that they form foundations for some people to posit whatever they believe, be it an optimistic or a pessimistic view. The point is: pessimism and optimism are not only supported by psychological states.

>>23255876
>That's ignorance, delusion, dishonesty. There's nothing in your sensory experience that is conflicting
I literally said that the contlict is between reason and senses, mind and body, not between senses and senses, body and body. Genius.
>suffering ignorant judgment
What is the ignorance in the judgment of a person agonizing with metastatic cancer that she is suffering?

>ignorant judgement
>thoughts label sensory experience as if they are of a higher truth than sensory experience
You should decide yourself, ironically, in your contradiction (!). Do judgments hold true of experiences or do experiences themselves have nonconceptual imprint? I believe both are the case but you are conflating the two to make your, single, dumb point about the factuality of suffering.

>>23255853
That sounds difficult

>>23255136
I'm a coward and death + pain is scary.

If I could just smash a button I would. Orchestrating a 'kill-me' button would be as scary as just doing it without the button; It'd need to be deus ex machinaed into existence.

Death is one of the reasons for pessimism so it wouldn't make much sense.
>X is one of the reasons I am sad, therefore I will do X

>>23255136
he said that suicide isn't actually a denial of the will to live, but an assertion of the will to live

didn't understand why

Schopenhauer just needed to smoke the ganja, he would have done a 360 on his views jah

>>23256176
because suicide is self expression

>>23256176
Not only that. He said that suicide is the biggest affirmation of will of all because it is the manifestation of will when it is unable to fulfill its desires or some shit like that.

>>23256199
but le not wanting to affirm le will is also le affirmation of le will? it is a bit like that retort against buddhists and the desire not to desire. i mean, this is not an impasse, but the resolution would be affirmation of nihilism as the only way to express this view without contradiction?

I read Schopenhauer as someone almost like a Western Buddhist. He wants you to stop wanting. He doesn’t necessarily want you to stop living. After all, you’d have to want to stop living in order to choose to stop living.

>>23255877
>The point is: pessimism and optimism are not only supported by psychological states.
And i am saying that they are, you are treating them as some sort of teleological metaphysical concept while i am saying that these viewpoints exist in people who don't even need to understand these definitions. There are people who are born naturally happy because of some tweak in their brain and some people who are born predisposed to depression, these are psychological facts.

>>23256741
>you are treating them as some sort of teleological metaphysical concept
I’m not, my point is that some apologists of optimism / pessimism defends optimism / pessimism through these metaphysical considerations. Therefore not only through the empirical feelings of happiness or sadness people have.

> i am saying that these viewpoints exist in people who don't even need to understand these definitions
So let’s go back to your first post: >>23255602. What are you saying here? That the only justification for optimism is a psychological state, the empirical feeling of happiness. But I’ve shown this is false because this is not the only way optimists have advocated their optimistic philosophy, point of view.

>>23256773
I was obviously parodying your attempt at suggesting that pessimists all need to kill themselves.

Schopenfags just haven’t read Nietzsche

>>23256784
I’m not the poster which that post of yours is replying to. My first interaction with you is here: >>23255798. But well, you took it too far for a parody by trying to justify your claim for hours of discussion with me.

Schopenhaur is like a baby versian of Cioran

>>23255136
Because he whines precisely because he is too afraid to kill himself because survival instincts n sheet...

>>23255138
no one asked

>>23255150
You believe in fairy tales your opinion has no value whatsoever

>>23255136
>what's the point in living?
Spreading misery to others, for example, by spreading awareness of Schopie's ideas, through anonymous vandalism, or by shilling blackpills and pinkpills in r/teenagers under several sockpuppet accounts

>>23255136
>In the evening a letter from Prof. Nietzsche, which pleases us, for his mood had given us cause for concern. Regarding this, R. says he fears that Schopenhauer’s philosophy might in the long run be a bad influence on young people of this sort, because they apply his pessimism, which is a form of thinking, contemplation, to life itself, and derive from it an active form of hopelessness.

>What about myself in relation to Schopenhauer’s philosophy—when I was completely Greek, an optimist? But I made the difficult admission, and from this act of resignation emerged ten times stronger.

>Why! Even to-day the German nation knows no better of him than what one railway-passenger may gather from his neighbour, namely that Schopenhauer's teaching is to shoot oneself dead.

>>23257510
>they apply his pessimism, which is a form of thinking, contemplation, to life itself, and derive from it an active form of hopelessness
interesting, I'd like to know more about this difference between pessimism as a contemplation, temperament and the distance it takes from tainting the world
>when I was completely Greek, an optimist?
what, pessimism is very much one of the marks of Greek spirit too

>>23255136
> why not just kill yourself

How do people still not understand how any of this works.
No animal can will themselves into being suicidal through pure internal thought. All animals have an inbuilt survival instinct that overwrites absolutely everything. That is the "natural" state of life that 99% of organisms exist under. The survival instinct can get overwritten but only through what you can think of as a freak accident via external factors. Suicidal ideation is an uncontrollable mutation not something you can choose to have no matter how much you suffer.
The irony is Schopenhauer is right but you don't understand why because you don't understand this and this is exactly why. The never ending desire is your survival instinct. You are literally like a machine that cannot break its programming. You are fully trapped because there are aspects of your being that are beyond your control and beyond anyone's control. It doesn't matter if there is a point to living you are forced to live or forced to die and can only delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

>>23255136
>waaah bad things exist, so nothing should!!
Schopenhauer was a bitch nigga.
His "philsophy" (i.e. endless verbal manifestations of his shitty personality) has been BTFO not only by Nietzsche and other philosophers, but also by contemporary complexity and life science.
Reading Schopenhauer will literally accomplish nothing beyond making you an insufferable depressive cynic.

>>23255136
>what's the point in living?
Spite.

>>23255136
Because having suicidal feelings and acting out on them is extremely painful. It's better to just wait it out if you can then to experience a suffering so severe.
Of course some people don't get to choose and experience so much suffering that a suicide is nothing in comparison. But no one talks about them because they are already dead.

>>23257615
>I'd like to know more about this difference
I suppose Wagner's essay on Beethoven demonstrates it best. Compared with the outward view of the world, the inner world comes further into perspective in the Schopenhauerian philosophy. It lends itself to mysticism. The artist and the saint are the ideal figures, whose art and religion are imperishable sources of inspiration and strength.

>what, pessimism is very much one of the marks of Greek spirit too
Wagner idealised Greece as a life-affirming culture. Nietzsche viewed them the same way, in which their pessimistic outlook was transformed through tragedy into an affirmation of life.

>>23255136
Killing yourself is highly impractical and will worsen your situation overall. Study how the spirit world works and you will get it.

>>23255136
I lack the constitution and my entire system is actively working overtime to make sure I keep breathing by pumping me full of chemicals.

>>23255136
Reincarnation, unironically, suicide or death in general doesnt extinguish the will in itself, instead it merely moves on to a different representation with simply the memories of the last life being erased.

Death is literally just amnesia, which makes you forget that you lived before, thus by killing yourself when your life was mostly good, youre just exchanging a mostly good future, for a future which you cant control the outcome of.

Schophenaur had a weird metaphysics, that nobody believes in (although everyone still praises him as this genius thinker while rejecting his central ontology as flat out retarded..) where the world/universe is essentially a singular will, like a force or some shit. In humans this is localized and self represented. By introspecting we can feel this will and glimpse the fundamental nature of the world (will).

Suicide doesn't work because there is no escape from willing, via a willing desiring act like suicide. Essentially he advocated some type of buddhist meditative flow state where one exists in a state of willinglinessness instead.

>>23255136
No one actually believes in total pessimism or nihilism on an instinctual level. It's just philosophical emo larp.

>>23255136
>if schopenhauer is right
lets not waste our time was fantasy, shall we?

>>23259719
You're on copium

>>23255136
>why not just kill yourself? what's the point in living?
for the time being, my collective pleasure is equal to or greater than my collective suffering; were this to change, i would have to reassess my behaviors accordingly

>>23255136
Schopenhauer misread Buddhist non-grasping as meaninglessness and nihilism. The Buddha was very clear in his denunciation of pessimism as an ideology, so that the state of 'nothingness' becomes no-thingness, indicating that nirvana is not a thing you can find, but rather a state where you experience the reality of non-grasping.

TLDR sucide is a misunderstanding of the end-state of Buddhist thought

>>23255525
only right post ITT. There's a section refuting suicide in the fourth section of The World as Will and Representation. If OP actually wanted an answer they'd get off of 4chan and actually read but no one here reads.

>>23255136

>>23260330

It isn't greater. Your pleasure is a fleeting thing constructed by the delusions of your flesh. Your natural states are boredom and suffering. Joy is the thing to string you along before you pass alone and in agony upon your dying. It isn't real. It's a neurochemical release. There is no receptor nor chemical for the angst of suffering and boredom. These are your natural states.

>>23255179
Hey I found an 18th century philosopher that wrote that being a neurotic schizophrenic always furiously obsessing over made up things is based, and that life should be lived arguing on message boards and trying to turn people over to your side of the culture wars.

>>23255136
The Schnauzer Man is wrong. Classical rationalists and deists, however, are right.

>>23261115
eh... might as well do it

>>23255136
Stop posting this loser. Just look at his face. He was unhappy. You can be smart and unhappy. You can be smart and happy

>>23255187
Obviously not but that’s a bit of a silly thing to say. You get inspiration from different things. Nietzsche is very inspiring if you relate to what he says. Schopenhauer is the opposite of inspiring to me. I don’t think either of them are telling you what to do. They’re just telling you what they think

>>23255136
To get to the source of suffering

What the hell is 'pure pessimism'? I think you should really read Schopenhauer before talk about his tought. You have to try to understand his philosophy which is quite different from whatever you think 'pure pessimism' means.

>>23261299
Depends on what you mean. The only way to be happy is either by being ignorant or delusional.