/lit/ - Literature

>>23216791
Somebody made a post like 6 months ago about how Ligotti's anti-natalism is the ultimate reactionary position, because it calls for a return to a world before life or something.

>>23216791
>protects the environment
Population stagnation will lead to increased resource usage to compensate for declining manpower which will be harmful for the environment regardless, and we're nowhere near population capacity so it would lead to worldwide economic depression and war pretty fucking quickly. "Traditional" social bonds went away over the course of ~150 years following the Industrial Revolution. "Authoritarians" would simply resort to slavery for alternate manpower or possibly even forced reproduction.

As far as environments go extinction is also a part of the natural process and frankly I don't care too much about what happens to it. Everything was dust and everything will be dust. Otherwise what I see as most problematic with regard to the main issue is people not satisfied with life bringing new people into it. Either a profound logical lapse or simply malice.

>>23216853
this is fairly accurate
>>23216791
you're reading far too much into it, on the other hand. ligotti is not antinatalist so much as anti-life altogether. there's no deeper moral or ethical element to his position, its entirely rooted in aesthetics & emotion: he views all organic existence as a nightmare atrocity sadomasochistically killing & feeding on its own rotting remains forever.

>>23216907
>all organic existence as a nightmare atrocity sadomasochistically killing & feeding on its own rotting remains forever
I literally can't argue against this

>>23216910
in many of his stories, he draws a dark sort of idyllic comfort from the imagery of like a desolate, mournful, silent universe empty of all organic life in which (1) there is nothing to do; (2) there is nowhere to go; (3) there is nothing to be; (4) there is no one to know. Thats like his happy place or his version of heaven

>>23216933
I truly hate how well his words resonate with me.

>>23216791
physiognomy is destiny. look at that chin.

it's always doomed to failure because for every one antinatalist on earth having zero children, there are 10,000 people fucking each other and pumping out normal people who also want to fuck and have babies. antinatalism is cringe for ugly tranny redditors who use it as an excuse for their failure to start a family.

>>23216791
>>23216983
All "pessimists" and "antinatalists" are nothing but cowards. Ligotti, in a candid moment, reveals this truth himself (pic related).

Why do beings in the same conditions respond differently to the world? That is because fundamentally, people like Ligotti are weak, cowardly, and unhealthy; thus their tendency towards dissolution, death, pessimism, etc. It is nothing but the life-denial of a botched being. These hypocrites live out long, comfortable lives ala Cioran. While, to compare him to another author, people like Nietzsche are strong, brave, and supremely healthy; thus life-affirming.

And just like Ligotti says, these ways of experiencing the world ("natalist" vs "antinatalist" in their connotations), are incommunicable because they are due to one's own being. The eagle soars while the rabbit runs and cowers.

>>23216791
>revolutionary
insofar as "revolutionary" is synonymous with "jewish interests", yes

>>23216955
i know what you mean, at times it feels quite psychologically unhealthy & unwholesome to consider the world from this perspective. alternatively, alot of his ideas arent terribly removed from general pessimistic or ascetic philosophies. his story "nethescurial" for example is basically a lovecraftian version of schopenhauer's will to life or a spooky malevolent interpretation of the hindu concept of brahman
>Nethescurial is the secret name of creation
>In the rooms of houses and beyond their walls
>Beneath dark waters and across moonlit skies
>Below earth mound and above mountain peak
>In northern leaf and southern flower
>Inside each star and the voids between them
>Within blood and bone, through all souls and spirits
>Among the watchful winds of this and the several worlds
>Behind the faces of the living and the dead

Anti-natalism is self-defeating though

>>23216791
Mankind won't even survive the next 100 or more years, so the issue will sort itself out eventually. I'm child free but not antinatalist. I don't care if people's children suffer.

>>23217002
>jewish interests
what are those?
>>23216983
this is such a cope, in his middle age he looked like a million other boomer dudes
>>23216998
>nietzsche worship
>in 2024
my fuckin sides lmfao

>>23217032
cope? this nigga looks like shit and he's a pussy. it's that simple. for every antinatalist in this thread I will pump out another baby just to demoralise you further.

>what are Jewish interests?
see pic

>>23217101
The reality is most people don't care if your child suffers or not. I most certainly do not care. If anything, the antinatalists are very compassionate people. I'm just making it clear that people are more callous than you think.

>>23217109
Compassionate? indeed; and to an extreme which only our sick society could permit. it's a privileged point of view for urban bourgeois middle-classes doomed to die. an opinion which flourishes only when not enough eugenic pressure is placed upon a population through war, disease and famine. Imagine telling an ancient Spartan that having a baby will cause suffering. You will be sent away with a whip and sold into sex slavery for some powerful Arab pederast to play with.

>>23216983
>physiognomy is destiny. look at that chin
When will retards understand that most modern correct chins are the result of braces and not just genetics. some beta could have a great chin but hung low status chad a weak one

>>23216791
There is no reason to reject life and it's hurdles. The underlyin motivation to do so stems from weakness, depression, or ignorance.

Ligotti could be the exact opposite of what he is, but he chooses not to be.

>>23217146
post chin
have sex

>>23217147
>Ligotti could be the exact opposite of what he is, but he chooses not to be.
Yes, he's a miserable guy, but still most likely much more brilliant, talented and successful than you or I will ever be

>>23217139
You are correct, but you are also too optimistic in thinking mankind will survive industrial collapse.

Mankind are just stupid violent chimps as a whole. I don't particularly care for this species or identify as it.

>>23217170
Mankind will survive, but not people like you. Your nature predisposes you to servitude and misery. As things stand, you won't last long, and if you do, it will be of no consequence. Go to the gym and get jacked up and start channelling some chimp energy if you want a share in what's coming.

>>23217201
>Mankind will survive,
Stupid humanist scum. Mankind won't survive, and even millions of years from now, mankind will speciate and diverge.
>Your nature predisposes you to servitude and misery.
And you have servitude to your instincts and biological needs. We all must serve something, whether body or community.
>Go to the gym and get jacked up and start channelling some chimp energy if you want a share in what's coming.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure a cocky retard like you will beat the WEF /Godhead like "based" Gatsu.

You're just a pathetic edgelord cunt who thinks he's stronger than he is..I know my limitations because I am honest and realistic. You're just as much of a slave as others, and you're probably on surveillance already fyi.

>>23217212
>even millions of years from now
And I doubt mankind will survive that long*
>>23217170
Humanists are ultimately the most nice of all people.. Humorously, both you and the antinatalists are humanists.

>>23217212
>even millions of years from now
And I doubt mankind will survive that long*
>>23217170
Humanists are ultimately the most naive** of all people.. Humorously, both you and the antinatalists are humanists.

pic related

>>23217212
>The WEF
ok schizo

>just be gay like me bro
no

>>23216791
>revolutionary
only if your concept of “revolutionary” is to reject things for the sake of rejection itself.
to which I would say that holding rejection itself as a virtue is painfully adolescent.
Also, as an aside: if anti-natalists were serious in their convictions, they would simply kill themselves. They won’t though. Anti-natalism is just the evolved form of the nu-atheism movement

>>23217253
>ok schizo
You're the schizo in thinking the technocratic elite do not consider you and your children as disposable.

>>23216910
>death and suffering is a part of life therefore life is bad
wow, amazing. Stimulating, brilliant, and SO DEEP.

>>23216791
If you care about the environment and want to adopt you don't reject life, you just reject the idea of spreading your own genes. Rejecting life would be advocating for nuking the planet and destroying all life forms that inhabit it.

For real, how do you expect to stop other people from making babies without being authoritarian or genocidal? Philosophizing about the moral goodness of not breeding might prevent a handful of nerds from having kids but illiterate third worlders don't care.

If you care about the environment and want to adopt you don't reject life, you just reject the idea of spreading your own genes. Rejecting life would be advocating for nuking the planet and destroying all life forms that inhabit it.

For real, how do you expect to stop other people from making babies without being authoritarian or genocidal? Philosophizing about the moral goodness of not breeding might prevent a handful of nerds from having kids but illiterate third worlders don't care, they're going to keep pumping out babies while you sit there seething.

>>23217170
>I don't particularly care for this species or identify as it.
Kill yourself then.

>>23217270
Never said it was deep, nor does it need to be so to be true

>>23217282
I don't need too. I routinely connect to my "projection body". I view my body as a temporary form, but there are aspects of the mind that are not fully embodied by this transient form.

>>23217292

>>23216791
>They all pose as though their real opinions had been discovered and attained through the self-evolving of a cold, pure, divinely indifferent dialectic (in contrast to all sorts of mystics, who, fairer and foolisher, talk of "inspiration"), whereas, in fact, a prejudiced proposition, idea, or "suggestion," which is generally their heart's desire abstracted and refined, is defended by them with arguments sought out after the event. They are all advocates who do not wish to be regarded as such, generally astute defenders, also, of their prejudices, which they dub "truths"...
anti-natalists feel free to seethe and cope and even dilate

>>23217297
Ofc it sounds asinine to physicalist scum like you.
Lankavatara Sutra talks about the projection body.
I have communicated with Rakshasas, tree devas, and much more. You're a moron if you think the mind is completely confined in your skull..look up "extended mind hypothesis" and panpsychism.

There are many good arguments in favor of panpsychism in modern philosophy of mind.

>>23217308
>You're a moron if you think the mind is completely confined in your skull
I don't.
You're shadowboxing.
You have no real argument against anything I've said, thus you assume me to hold certain positions that you feel you can easily attack.
Its like I said "I like the color green" and so you decided that I must hate the color purple. Maybe I also like purple.
Anyways, shit thread. My previous point still stands that if you weren't a coward then you would simply kill yourself as proof of your anti-natalist, life-denying positions.
Nietzsche BTFO'd you fuckers over a century ago yet unfortunately we still have to deal with your estrogenous bitching.

>>23217268
>you're the schizo

>>23217292
>>23217308
sure thing pal. Touch grass faggot

>>23217329
I'm not an antinatalist though. I made that clear, illiterate faggot.

I am simply making it clear that mankind has no future. The issue will sort itself.

>>23217147
>Ligotti could be the exact opposite of what he is, but he chooses not to be.
do you think this logic applies to africans too?

>>23217335
Both you and Ligotti share humanism in common. You and the antinatalists are two sides of the same coin.
Mankind is a failed species that will go extinct soon. Only naive humanists believe in the "power of humanity and friendship". Stick to sappy JRPGs.

>>23217146
>When will retards understand that most modern correct chins are the result of braces and not just genetics
>>23217101
also most people who talk about physignomy look like this lmao

>>23217371
I really doubt it will go completely extinct. The best you will get is a probable recess into a sort of global neolithic. The cat is out of the bag now that potatoes and other resistant crops are widespread. Nearly uncontacted tribes in Papua aren't really going to feel much of a change. Maybe a positive one, if any. Not because of any humanistic idea. Just because humanity seems to be rather apt at adapting to and changing its environment for its own benefit. Even long before there was agriculture. Many worthwhile things will be unfortunately lost, however.
And I would like to hear your argument for why it is a failed species, with minimal spiritualism.
>>23217372
Self refuting statement.

>>23217514
MAD as a deterrent to worldwide devastation is nonsense for one thing. Weather modification technologies are probably already being weaponized too.
>And I would like to hear your argument for why it is a failed species, with minimal spiritualism.
"Spiritualism" is just codeword for you for anything that does not fit into the present physicalist model of reality.

>>23217543
None of that guarantees human extinction.
>"Spiritualism" is just codeword for you for anything that does not fit into the present physicalist model of reality.
Whatever, I'm asking you to explain why it is a failed species without retarded shit about the Dharma and nature that I do not believe and will thus dismiss as the nonsense I believe they are. Don't get me wrong, I believe you have had the experiences you say, the conclusions differ, though.

>>23216791
it's such a whiny little fag defeatist "philosophy", it's not something you come to believe via study or research, it's something you're drawn to because you're a miserable cuck with no intentions to improve your life but are also too pussy to kys