/lit/ - Literature

>>23171865
Because, uh, people who disagree get banished to Australia where they live in our world instead.
It was made in a time when people thought muh freedom was important.

>>23171865
Glowie

>>23171865
Because casual sex is le heckin bad... OK???

soulless, streamlined eden = bad

>>23171880
Muh freedom is important.

>>23171896
>>23171895
Tell me you wouldn't prefer living as a rich citizen in BNW as opposed to your shitty current life that is going nowhere in a doomed world.

>>23171904
I would.

>>23171904
The "everyone belongs to everyone" is a dealbreaker for me. I'd want to belong to one person only (and have that one person just for myself) more than to be superficially happy.

>>23171865
>can do whatever they want,
incorrect
>lots of casual sex at any time they want with anyone they want
also incorrect
>What's so dystopian about this again?
nothing. Mustapha mond was 100% correct

>>23171865
A woman wrote this.
Why do normies and women hate pain?

>>23171904
>doomed world
BNW is balanced on a razor's edge though.

>>23172768
Finding fulfillment in struggle is foreign to them

>>23171865
It’s dystopian because there’s no SOVL. Do we really need to have this thread once a week?

>>23172787
man has never in its entire history found fulfillment through blue collar work

>>23172797
>man loves explosions and breaking shit
>gets a job on a demolition crew
Speak for yourself you slim waisted pussy pleb.

>>23172797
>man loves explosions and breaking shit
>gets a job on a demolition crew
Speak for yourself you limp wristed pussy pleb.

>>23172768 (You)
>>23172787 (You)
>>23172797 (You)

one must imagine Sisyphus yolked

>>23172804
go work mcdonalds or in a grocery store for a week and get back to me, chump

Life is about virtue, not pleasure
>>23172825
Go do a fun thing and tell me it was boring faggot

>>23172825
>I'm so glad I'm a beta...
Lol

>>23172919
how did you possibly get that from my post, imbecile

>>23172927
Don't sign your posts.

>>23172930
dont write checks your ass cant cash

>>23172939
>things I learned being a homosexual prostitute
Lol

>>23172949
your autobiography?

>>23172955
>no you
Weak.

>>23171865
it's not dystopian. it's a novel about finding your place in the world. people who compare this work to 1984 are braindead.

>>23171865
>everyone is happy
Literally all of the main characters aren't genuinely 100% happy and still face the same emotional problems that we do in a "normal world. Bernard is unhappy because others dislike him and talk behind his back and he's seeking for approval from others. Watson is depressed because he's being censored and can't express himself as he wants, also he's too aware of the world, he doesn't give a shit about pleasure. Lenina is sad because she can't have Bernard (I'm excluding the Savage since he shouldn't have been there and is an anomaly). Mond is probably not a mindless happy pleasuremaxxing NPC either because he's one of the world runners and he's way too aware of how the things work.
>can do whatever they want
Not really, did you even read the book?
>pain has been eradicated
As you can see, all the characters experience pain.

>What's so dystopian about this again?
Completely destroying the traditional values, people are bio-engineered to perfection and assigned castes at birth that they can't change, people are born from jars and don't have families everything is soulless and utilitarian to the core.

What is the actual purpose of life? What even is happiness and do people really want it, is it just a made up concept? Is the journey of life just about experiencing as much pleasure as you can?

Did you miss the baby torture scene?

>>23172787
There is no fulfilment in anything these days. The world is nothing but struggle without the gain. We've reached a cultural dead end and beyond an all consuming WW3-type event, there's no way out of this.

>>23172768
>A woman wrote this.
No it wasn't. Why are you being obtuse on purpose? Is your argument so fragile you have to conjure a context for it to even stand on one leg in the first place?

>>23171865
Yes, yes, we know. You hedonist, homosexual third-worlders are so devolved you cannot even comprehend something which even normies could understand fifty years ago. You don't have to remind us.

>>23173562
>hedonist third-worlders
Are you that detached from reality to see that westerners are the biggest hedonists compared to everyone else or has your NPC programming caught a bug where you have to lash out with buzzwords at every opportunity?

I think pleasure sometimes only made us forgott about our selves, Huxley wrotte his novel based on the concept of Fords mass production/ consumption. Now we live on a society where not only the commodity is produced and we have free will of choosing it on the market, but also our selves, our desires are mass produced by the industry. So someone who is dominated by this estructure would not become aware of being dominated beacause it self is manufactured to the requirements of the system.
Besides the role of pleasure is to avoiding the self conciousness of the subject, you only feel your body when it pains to you, when someone is having sex (not making love) or consuming any substance doesnt became aware of its body.
As far as i am concerned i prefer to be Socrates unpleased rather than a happy piggy.

>>23172783
How so? From what I remember nothing in the book implied there was some sort of budding uprising or even feeling of contempt from anyone. The only two main protagonists that are unhappy are being are dealt with by being shipped elsewhere and the brute doesn't even stem from their society in the first place.

>>23171904
I don't live in Russia

>>23171865
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?
>hey have fun forever :)
>but what does it all mean?

Idk anon, you tell me

>>23172768
>>23172787

Pure ideology.

>>23174127
>but what does it all mean?
why does it have to have meaning?

>>23174268
It doesn't "have" to. Enjoy drugs and sex forever!

>>23171904
I think the scary thing is not supposed to be if it's possible, but that we actually would prefer it over any romantic values. That it is preferred is exactly why Huxley wrote it.

>>23171865
The problem with all these dystopia novels is that they ironically give humans way too much credit

>>23171865
>>23174268
It's very alienating to know that some don't see a problem with these scenarios despite them being absolutely horrifying to me. I think it might be an exclusively western thing to value happiness and personal fulfillment so much that being 'wireheaded' does not seem so awful.

>>23174344
>obsessed thirdie can't go a minute without thinking about the west

>>23174350
I live in a western country. I was referring to the popular/accepted opinion of people who live here.

>>23174344
>I think it might be an exclusively western thing to value happiness and personal fulfillment so much that being 'wireheaded' does not seem so awful.

It is education, IMO.
There was a huge failure in ethics education and many people defaulted to Bentham utilitarianism.

if happiness is your only reason for being alive then you may as well just kill yourself. theres no reason why your happiness should supersede your death

>>23171865

The lower castes are not happy just by virtue of not being able to understand how much better off they could be. They live limited existences in a limited consciousness in which they're socially dominated. You want to be born in a society where there's an 80% chance you'll be a shitmuncher with 0 maneuverability or self-determination?

And it's not as if Alpha's live fulfilling lives when they internally discard 80% of the people in the world that generate their 'pleasure'. They'd feel far richer in a social environment where there relations aren't determined by arbitrary subjugation.

Would you not rather exist in a 'harmonious' and interpersonal collective rather than you just being the king and everyone else is a piece of shit? If you find the prospect of pleasure at the expense of people you can empathise with to be inticing your're repressing your drive for human connection. You'll exist in a comparatively limited joy.

>>23173191

Bad take using Bernard as a counter-example: he's miserable due to a generative error not as an inherent flaw of this systems philosophy.

>>23172825
>>23172858
>>23172919
>>23172927
>>23172930
>>23172939
>>23172949
>>23172955
>>23172957

You guys need to take a step back and look at yourselves

>>23171880
>>23171895
>>23172262
>>23172768
>>23172783
>>23173013
>>23173553
>>23174438

I don't know why you guys bother showing up

don't ever mass reply to me again

>>23172768
>A woman wrote this.

>>23174525
The hilarious thing about it all is that they were both right
It turns out you can have a world with an abundance of convenience, hedonism, and censorship

>>23174414
Without brainwashing people have utilitarian ethics.
This is a problem, not an indication that non utilitarian ethics are wrong and stupid.
Lol.

>>23171865
Aldous' book was Julian's non-fiction work Transhumanism from a few years ago rewritten as fiction.

>>23173650
At a glance it might appear that way, but when you thirdies open your mouths and talk, revolting stuff comes out. The kind of hedonist barbarisms that have been so long removed from the people of my country we don't even think about them. In fact, it's only managing to infect our culture thanks to the spread of the English language—permitting you sensualities of your various cultural persuasions to spread your spiritual cancers. Certainly, facets of Western culture are hedonistic—that is why Huxley wrote the book; it is a warning, but ultimately Christianity purged much of the filth from Western culture that is still rife in the Third World and even Europe due to how long atheism has been growing there. I don't expect a thirdie to understand it (having lived your whole life in a storm, how would you know what a sunny beach looks like), but it is what it is.

>>23174268
There is literally nothing wrong with it.

Eternal orgasm vs. fleeting pleasures of short term dopamine rush and a miniscule lifespan full of pain and hardship.

GEE, HARD CHOICES.

>>23174268
It could be worse

>>23175791
>screams without a lung

>>23171865
I read this article. Reminded me a lot of this book. Also reminded me that it's hardly even dystopian fiction, it's literally just a prediction of what the world will become and what Huxley's own family helped to create. God, the next 100 years are going to be awful.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trans-rights-biological-sex-gender-judith-butler.html

>What does this freedom look like in practice? Let anyone change their sex. Let anyone change their gender. Let anyone change their sex again. Let trans girls play sports, regardless of their sex status. If they excel, this means only that some girls are better at sports than others. Let people use the gender-segregated facilities of their choice; desegregate whenever possible. Do not out children to their parents. Do not force anyone to change their sex or their gender. Give everyone health care... That trans kids’ access to care will in most cases be mediated by parents or legal guardians is an inescapable fact of the way our society regards children, rightly or not. For now, parents must learn to treat their kids as what they are: human beings capable of freedom.

>If we are to recognize the rights of trans kids, we will also have to accept that, like us, they have a right to the hazards of their own free will. This does not mean shooting testosterone into every toddler who looks at a football. But if children are too young to consent to puberty blockers, then they are definitely too young to consent to puberty, which is a drastic biological upheaval in its own right.

>>23171865
You're forgetting the best part where everyone stays young until their 60s.

If i had a choice, I would choose BNW. Probably would be a gamma though. But as long as the girls are good looking.

>>23174503
>The lower castes are not happy just by virtue of not being able to understand how much better off they could be. They live limited existences in a limited consciousness in which they're socially dominated.
We live in an IQ segregated society already. There are people living less consciously right now, think about how /pol/ views the world.
>If you find the prospect of pleasure at the expense of people you can empathise with to be inticing your're repressing your drive for human connection. You'll exist in a comparatively limited joy.
Again, we live in that now. I'm typing this on pc built in sweatshops in 3rd world country. The clothes you wear, the food we eat, and your home.

>>23174268
The ultimate redpill is that the bluepill is the ultimate redpill.

>>23174525
>>23174543
Both wrong. Orwell was warning of the future while Huxley was one of them

Modern versions of this have somewhere in the region of 50 pages of forewords that spoil the ending of the book multiple times and carefully explain what you should think about it without the slightest hint of irony. It's been ruined by it's own success.

>>23176428
What relevance does our current state of affiars have to do with determining whether BNW is dystopian?

'we live in BNW now and therefore BNW is not dystopia'

What?

Huh I never thought of it like that

>>23171904
Hope your life gets better, thirdie.

>>23171865
Don't know, but I think frequent group-chanting the orgy-porgy may have something to do with this, or, in modern terms, jibing along with t*k t*k. What the herders have in mind ultimately is unstated too, which is a little disconcerting. I think it's important to keep in mind that BNW is also a physical analogue for a spiritual (i.e. invisible) process; I mean, it is 'literature,' correct?

>>23175284
It's spelled "minuscule". Do you think you even have the right to opine on this subject with that level of education?

>>23174503
>he's miserable due to a generative error
I don't really think so. There was a rumor about him being flawed because they've added too much of something, but this could have just been a random occurrence, not a generative error. He was still an alpha plus and wasn't retarded or anything. He was just really insecure, and a bit of a manlet for an alpha they couldn't bio-engineer that part out of him.

You could technically say that everyone there is miserable due to generative errors. Watson shouldn't have attempted expressing himself and just conformed, Lenina should have left Bernard and John and started looking for another guy to fuck. Were those generative errors? They shouldn't have been like that.

I think that what Huxley also wanted to say is that you can't remove certain key aspects of a human, like the strongest feelings that we feel or pursue, lust, pride, sadness, jealousy, even through heavy education and bio-engineering.

>>23171865
Huxley was promoting the age old idea that suffering is necessary for the formation of character and thus necessary for identity and the real works (?) that spring from that process of identity.

From what I can recall, he doesn't do a great job of outlining why the second form of living is actually better than the first.

It's a deeply upper middle class idea... that we ought to be concerned with our freedom ahead of everything else. Freedoms are hugely important for a number of complex reasons, but it's annoying when Liberals replace God with the idea of freedom and just expect everyone to accept it.

>>23171865
it's the hallmark of a lesser soul to be content as nothing more than a function of a greater whole.

if you find peace in this book, you cannot be at peace with yourself. tranquility only aggravates alienation.

>>23178052
Suffering leads to natural reaction to remove the suffering. If suffering is within limits, so it doesn't break a human permanently, it leads to an attempts. Initial attempts within available skills, resources and knowledge will most likely be failed, which would lead toward the search for more knowledge/skills/resources to remove the suffering, which leads to development from simpliest forms into more advanced. Freedom allows for such development in various ways, which allows for more resources/skills/knowledge to be obtained by various individuals and later shared/spied out/conquered/otherwise united into bigger pool for further advancement. No-freedom provides only a single specific way of development through the suffering, which leads to prevention of the advancement past the certain point. More than that, no-freedom for the sake of the status quo forbids to be attracted to the further advancement, which leads to the people, who like to learn, to become unhappy. Freedom is critically important for anyone, who can and want to keep learning, it is a grave danger for retards because it will create even more potentially more advanced people, who can cheat retards or cause the suffering to this retards (as only way to escape suffering known for retards is to comply to rules given from "above). Retards think, that an abyss willbe taken care of by their leader and don't understand, that leader just puts a paper screen and a guard with a rifle, who prohibits everyone to go past the screen - that it is not an abyss is being dealt with but retards themselves.

>>23177995
It would have been cool if Shakespeare spelled it like that.

>>23178117
You seem to be labouring under the impression that I had asked for an explanation of why freedom was important. I hadn't. I was stating that Huxley failed to demonstrate in his book why freedom, despite intense suffering, should nevertheless be treated as paramount.

>>23178143
I wasn't exactly sure, that you hadn't. Nevertheless, it is still an important (at my opinion) basic information, that is to be repeated from time to time to ensure, that at least some people will acknowledge/reacknowledge/remember this ideas.

>>23177995
Get off your high horse, you ass clown. Nobody cares about your 10 dollar words and failed literature degree.

>>23177995
owned!

>>23178707
>samefagging in 2024

>>23178143
I can just imagine your smug reddit söy expression as you typed that post.

>>23178862
OK, ESL. Sorry the big words scared you.

>>23178891
>big words
buzzwords*

>>23172787
>>23172768
tell me about your bane and suffering

Freedom really only matters for a small segment of the population. For instance the segment that comes to a website dedicated to free speech. If you spend your time on a website where free speech isn't allowed then obviously it isn't important to you. So what percent of the population is that, maybe 1%? Everyone else should have all of their rights taken away and be made to live as comfortable and productive lives as possible.
Jesus understood this, that most people simply need a good shepherd.

>>23180889
A world full of happy retards will eventually decline, of only because of amount of incompetent people will overcome amount of competent people so vastly, that retards will take most of controlling positions. Only way to avoid this is to create as many competent people as possible, and make them as competent as possible. Which can only be achieved through learning in various ways. I knew, that posting >>23178117 was important.
Captcha: PAST

>>23180889
>For instance the segment that comes to a website dedicated to free speech.
You're on a website dedicated to anime and porn, whose mods decide not to ban 14 year olds who say nigger because of apathy and laziness, not high minded ideals like preserving the first amendment. Get over yourself.

I really hate 2016frogs, they all believe that the very existence of this website is a huge statement on freedom of speech. In reality it's just anarchy by circumstance.

>>23171904
shut up cypher

Now read "The Island", also by Aldoys Huxley :)

>>23178117
>Suffering leads to natural reaction to remove the suffering.

Totally absurd.

>>23181053
Do you not remove your hand away from a hot kettle after experiencing pain of touching it? If no - you are either broken, insane or otherwise crippled mentally - in this case "natural reactions" would be absurd to you.

>>23171865
>What's so dystopian about this again?
It's artificial order and we live in it.

>>23181065
Is this what you people consider suffering?

>>23181135
Yes.

>>23171904
>that is going nowhere in a doomed world
Literally BNW, humanity just waiting for death

>>23171865
The most ominous part about the book is all the retards like you asking what's dystopian about it.
Get an opioid habit, it's way better than anything you currently like to do.
>>23174166
How do you know retard? Why are humans different from all other animals? Why are you so fucking braindead? Have you ever even had a thought in your life you pathetic piece of shit?

>>23171865
>forced to have sex with a unibrow rothschild
>happy
bernard was redpilled. the state can enforce anyone to sleep with you, but they'll still - even if in secret - laugh at you being a manlet. it's more than about getting sex. crazy that huxley knew this back in 1932. nothing has changed.

>>23181303
>Literally BNW, humanity just waiting for death
At least it isn't suffering horrendously while they're at it.
Like I said, as far as dystopias are concerned, BNW is like a stroll in the park.

>>23181942
It's the worst dystopia by far because it's realistic. The human animal is actually tempted by the idea of being a mindless vegetable with no hope of ever doing anything remotely interesting.

>>23181970
A lot of dystopias are realistic, they come from a place of fear of a possible future after all. And I'm not saying I want to live in a BNW scenario, I'm just saying I'd prefer it over an opposite world where everyone is subjugated and tortured 24/7 like in I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.

>>23174268
>the pill is green-purple

>>23171865
Because there are not animal torture. Normalfags love torturing animals.

>>23181991
Your instinct to oppose suffering is a result of organisms evolving to exert power over the world. Hedonism is a perversion of that which leads to reducing your ability to exert power which translates directly to the real kind of suffering, the thing you evolved to oppose.
You say you fear time in hell but if your memory is reset every minute then to you it's only one minute of torture so what is it you actually fear? Knowledge of the pain you suffered before? In reality you already suffered for billions of years and those billions of years repeat forever. We are eternally what we do. By choosing to shitpost I am eternally and metaphysically a shitposter.

>>23171865
Love, free will, and humanity don't exist

>>23182308
There is growth though struggle and suffering and then there's non-stop pain and misery that doesn't foster anything but suffering.

>>23182323
It's the same type of thing as hedonism except less tempting. The emotions as they normally express rest on context, the meaning is more painful than the emotional signal of pain itself. The signal for pain is the same kind of signal we enjoy just a very intense version. The delusion hedonism is treating the emotion as fundamental, something you can access directly without first building the context. A successful hedonist will keep raising the stakes until he's back to overcoming the same kind of difficulties life offered anyway.

>>23182488
"Successful" hedonist is a masochist, who, instead of rejecting the suffering, ends up changing his nature to enjoy it. Which can lead to either very perverted self-development in chase of more suffering or to self-destruction. In both cases there is a very dangerous moment, that might eventually lead to sharing the joy of the suffering with others either through altruism or through a part of an experiment, which puts "successful" hedonists into the category of "deranged maniacs, dangerous to themselves and society". All of the above also means, that at some moment this "succesful" hedonists had run out of ability to enjoy non-suffering things - they broke themselves, now they suffer from boredom and mild sensory deprivation they have brought upon themselves, but their way of intensification of signals only leads them further down the spiral.

>>23182706
>further down the spiral.
The hedonist always goes down that spiral. The "successful hedonist" pretty much figures out that hedonism doesn't work. The hedonistic playpen he would construct would have all the hardships of life anyway so it's pointless to build it.

>>23173774
>om what I remember nothing in the book implied there was some sort of budding uprising or even feeling of contempt from anyone
Lenina accidentally kills a few thousand people in a far off corner of the world because of mild emotional confusion.
>The only two main protagonists that are unhappy are being are dealt with by being shipped elsewhere
Do you still believe that your childhood pet went to live on a farm up north where he'll be very happy?