/lit/ - Literature

>>23136140
no

Dear god no

>>23136140
Fuck no, and the only good ones have a bi-weekly thread on /trash/ where we shit on them and discuss how they'll never get finished and all the husbandos are busted. That should tell you how far from literature they are. litrpg needs the same treatment from /sff/ and /wg/

>>23136143
>>23136154
>>23136158
Newfags. Song of Saya is a /lit/ classic

>>23136140
They are literarily adjacent (if by visual novel you mean manga--otherwise I don't even know what you're talking about)--just as film is both adjacent to literature and to painting.

>>23136189
Looks like worthless pedo coomer shit without even artistic merit, if that image comes from it.

>>23136205
This is going to be a lesson in learning to google before you run your mouth. You know cutscenes in a 90s jrpg? Imagine a 'game' that was made of nothing but that, and a few porn CGs thrown in at the end as a reward for reading a bunch of slop. That's a Visual Novel.

>>23136212
bro but it's like.. edgy AND anime. it's deep, because it like... references philosophy and shit.. while being guro

>>23136221
>>23136220
>>23136212
You read words that carry a story.

It's literature.

Nobody mentioned literature has to be high quality.

>>23136205
>They are literally adjacent

>>23136220
I only google things if I actually care, moron. I'm not interested in visual novels, manga, or other loser mediums. Your post was only a lesson in your arrogance and stupidity. Fuck your pretensions.

>>23136228
You cared enough to reply at all, my third world friend.

>>23136227
Literarily* dumbass ESL. And no, I'm not a tranny.

>>23136224
At best, it has some overlap, but it is not literature.

>>23136241
Is don quixote now not literature because It has drawings?

>>23136232
I'm a natural born American, moron. You're 0 for 2. Care to make it 0 for 3 like a retard?

>>23136246
You can't actually be foolish enough to think that is an argument, right?

>>23136247
>moron
Not with basic bitch insults like that, you autismal faggot.

>>23136254
I'm not talking about quality.

A VN is nothing more than a light novel with some if else in a game engine.

You're overthinking this shit when Fate stay night has been literally ported to a PDF.

>>23136246
is me writing a shitty 30 word story on the wall of my bathroom with my own feces literature? It's literarily adjacent

>>23136269
so are ancient summerian clay scripts, not literature?

No because if they're doing their job properly they're mostly a visual medium. That said they can be high art, though I don't know an actual example that is.

>>23136140
there is not supposed to be a comma there

>>23136276
If I put shakespeare in renpy with some anime pictures made with AI.

Is shakespeare now not literature?

>>23136205
>>23136228
Why are you on this website

>>23136275
no seriously, answer me. Is literary merit a criterion for something to be considered 'literature'? Or are you one of those retards who don't believe in standards

>>23136140
If the Persona series counts as a VN, then yes

>>23136258
>basic bitch insults
>"basic bitch" a trite cliche
>"autismal" another cliché
>"faggot" that's three clichés
You managed to exponentially strike out in a single post, being your third post and a post with three strikes and all. Impressive work, moron!

>>23136290
death to all zoomers

>>23136288
No.

Just like shitty rap of ghetto niggas doesn't stop being music because shakespeare doesn't exist.

I admit that shakespeare and byron are high art, but I'm not a faggot who complains that weebs like to read cheap isekai garbage.

I enjoy harem porn as well as I enjoy 16 century poethry that uses blasion.

Not every fucking work of art has to be fine art.
It's ok to enjoy also porn anon.

>>23136212
>Looks like worthless pedo coomer shit without even artistic merit
Just like 90% of literature

>>23136300
Then you have never read PhD level Herakles modern AU slash fiction in the style of translated poetry fragments. Or southern gothic erotica dealing with the plight and circumstance of a young son of a whore. I pity you, for you have never truly fapped.

>>23136300
That's not even getting into how there's lots of trash-tier literature that makes your average VN look like high art.

>>23136314
I'm less of a gatekeeper.

Because I started from weeb media until I went to classical shit.

And just because I like classical shit, doesn't mean that stories for fun, so wagies can ignore their miserable lifes to be bad.

Escapism sometimes help miserable people to be happy, even if it's fake.

>>23136318
Sure, I do think the issue is that most of them are made by some weebs without classical studies.

But Imagine if a genius writer was alive today, he would still make quality with the medium.

As stupid as claiming that something like FL studio is not real music.

>>23136283
A visual novel is not an illustrated novel

>>23136140
Anyone have that /lit/ manga chart?

>>23136140
Novels? No. Visual NTR webcomics? Yes.

>>23136140
Umineko is, since it's heavily inspired by Ten little niggers, The Brothers Karamazov, and The Divine Comedy.

>>23136531

>>23136799
I expected to see an absolutely abominable list, but its not bad actually. Good effort, if you're the compiler.

>>23136799
It honestly feels like those charts were made by two completely different people. The manga list isn't bad, but my god the anime one is pure garbage. I don't care what anybody says, having Neon Genesis Evangelion in any chart is a red flag. Monster's also an extremely bad choice, along with Hyouka. The best anime there by far are GTS2: Innocence, Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, The Tale of Princess Kaguya, Porco Rosso, and Kemono no Souja Erin.

>>23136876
Pretentious, honestly.

>>23136876
Yeah NGE is literally anti-art, its an abomination of a series that is profoundly disappointing and boring.

>>23136876
>>23136909
You two are being dishonest. I'm not even a fan of NGE, but it is 100% literary as far as anime go. It draws heavily on the Bible and psychology and is intrinsically philosophical. Vampire Hunter D, while stylish as fuck, is way less literary by comparison--and there are many other things on either side of the list more dubious than NGE.

>>23136905
Pretentious how? By not liking the same anime as you? If I was trying to be pretentious, I'd be playing the same old tired shtick everyone plays and pretend as if Serial Experiments Lain, Angel's Egg, Texhnolyze, and Haibane Renmei are good anime.
>>23136922
>It draws heavily on the Bible
I really hope you're not a Christian. NGE's usage of Christian symbolism is entirely divorced from reality. There's nothing inherently wrong with reappropriating symbols for new purposes in fiction, but it's so tiring to hear people act like the mere usage of these symbols gives NGE value. NGE's Angels are not Christian angels, and neither are its crosses. Lilith is not from the Bible, but from Jewish folklore which Christians would consider heretical. Honestly, the types of people who praise NGE for its incorporation of Christian symbolism most likely actually hate Christianity and don't have the first clue about it. They probably think that all depictions of angels appearing as babies and men are unbiblical, and that the only "biblically accurate" representations of angels come from yet another book they never read: Ezekiel.
>It draws heavily on... psychology
Not in any way that matters. Plenty of anime do it, but just like most books, it's done poorly.
>is intrinsically philosophical
In what way? The artsy stream-of-consciousness style monologues near the end of the series and all the other stuff that goes down then isn't profound in any way. It shares sentiments, and only that. If there's anything I'd compare it to in just how shallow it is, I guess I'd compare it to Slaughterhouse-Five. I'd say you can't expect to just make vague observations and offer vague sentiments on war and death and cap everything off with a catchphrase, "So it goes", but clearly it's enough for most people. But NGE is worse than Slaughterhouse-Five, because it's much more disingenuous. Or rather, Hideaki Anno is much more disingenuous than Kurt Vonnegut.

>>23137026
I'd answer you, but your personality is just too atrocious to deal with. You're so very pretentious.

>>23136922
The creators literally said they put in christian symbolism to look cool. The show is about depression and nothing more. It has no psychological depth whatsoever, it's just moping for 90% of the show and then a fucking powerpoint slideshow for the last 2 episodes.

If you actually want decent christcuck anime watch Angel's Egg.

>>23136799
If these are the best things manga and anime has to offer, then it's already over.

>>23136140
No, please fuck off.

>>23137355
this

>>23136799
>no 20th century boy

^^
shit bait

>>23137355
It is indeed overfor the west that

>>23138211
that what?

Sure. It's a form of storytelling which is mostly conveyed through text. Doesn't mean they're mostly good, or of worth. That's the important thing to focus on. Not this arbitrary farting around over the definitions of words.

Could a visual novel be better than the greatest book ever written? Yes. Has that happened yet? No. Will that happen? Maybe in like a hundred years, Idk.

>>23136140
You could take the original text of Crime and Punishment, add some fitting classical music to some of the scenes or ambience sounds like wind blowing, get some actors the speak the dialogues, and maybe find some fitting visuals or photography or else just display the text. In other words, there doesn't seem to be anything technically exluding the medium from reaching higher aesthetic spheres.

>>23137026
I'm not sure if you understand how retarded you sound.

>>23138210
Nah, I am just retarded phoneposter and overlooked it owing to my retardation

>>23138275
What's really retarded is judging anime moreso on literary merit than what actually matters, like animation, art, voice acting, score, etc. The real sin of that anime list is that so many of those anime are downright ugly. But if we're judging based on literary merit alone, then the weirdest pick of all is Aoi Bungaku. A bunch of half-assed anime adaptations of actual literature. The only reason why it's ever included on lists like these is because of what it tries to adapt, not because it has any value of its own. This goes for World Masterpiece Theater as well. It's like someone just googled for a list of anime based on books without even bothering to see if they were good or not. In fact, wouldn't you know it... I did just that, and pic-related is what I got. The only one that's missing is Howl's Moving Castle, and that's most likely only because contrarians on the internet like to act like it's bad because of how popular it is. That's probably why Porco Rosso is there instead of it, really.

About as much as song lyrics are poetry.
Which is, probably not.

>>23136140
Obviously.

>>23138421
My bad, The Great Passage doesn't appear on the list, either. Speaking of The Great Passage, though, I don't know why the hell people think taking teenage rom-com tropes and planting them into adult society is good. The concept is great, and I was very excited to watch it at first, only to be extremely disappointed when Mitsuya turned out to be just another shonen romance manga protagonist, but aged up 20 years. The art is very inconsistent, too, along with the animation being lazy overall, so really just a bad anime.

there were a a few times where I felt like muramasa became lit

What about pulp novels?

>>23140290
what would they be if not literature?

>>23138218
That it is

>>23138261
>Doesn't mean they're mostly good, or of worth.
The same could be said of countless other books.
Unless you mean to tell me all that YA or romantasyslop is "good" or "of worth"

>>23140645
They're as trashy as your average VN

Neon Genesis Evangelion is art because it offers a very deliberately put together, specific expression you can't find in real life. It has its flaws but it's the best visual depiction of human suffering. It's commercial as well as arthouse. It's a deeply misunderstood work though, because it's a far more simpler work than people think.

Visual novels aren't literature or art, save for a handful of titles. They're sleazy porn games designed with one goal: people who don't have any personal ideals will self-insert and feel the emotions the narrative tells them to feel. It's for people who lack a taste. The better titles are games, the worse ones are porn. There are only 3 VNs I'd call literature. I think the best original visual piece of media is a VN, but the medium is as low-brow as films.

>>23141391
Only VN I've read (and still in progress, mind) is Dies Irae. And I've enjoyed it well enough. Probably because it's more focused on action and character study than porn or self-insertion fantasies.

I think a good litmus test for VN's is to see if there's an all ages version and if it's still enjoyable to read without the ero scenes.

>>23136212
Wrong.
Absolutely wrong.
Watch this video, to understand why "Song of Saya" is a KINO, absolute masterpiece of literature and, therefore get enlightened and based-pilled:
>https://archive.org/details/saya-of-saya-no-uta-visions-of-true-god-episode-01-true-god-inverted_202305
Watch it please, even if you haven't read the VN, with this video you are going to reach Buddha's enlightenment and more.

>>23141391
>but the medium is as low-brow as films
i'm really sharing the board with people this dumb...

>>23136140
no

>>23142085
He meant modern films

>>23142088
YES.

>>23136140
They're basically digital, illustrated penny dreadfuls

Is Pacman literature?

>>23136140
They are the shit version of books and comic books at the same time.

>>23142102
Yes?
Pacman actually has a narrative.
Yes really.
Watch this video to know, that:
>https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGPzVlTgZoCg&ved=2ahUKEwietp3rtdiEAxWJVaQEHet9DMMQjjh6BAgWEAI&usg=AOvVaw0GeqIKMXlnot_5sgZbbzvb
So it could indeed be considered literature.

>>23142104
>They are the MASTERPIECE version of books and comic books at the same time.
There, fixed it for you.

>>23142104
What do they share with comic books? They're more like illustrated children's books except for horny teenagers

>>23141582
>>23141391
There’s something wrong here. You have a dissonance between your mind and body and using that constrained situation to draw moral or artistic meaning, it’s not right. The liberals have totally cucked you with their demonic version of the Kantian moral law and Rousseaun social contract. That’s why sexual offenses are the most offensive thing to a ‘free ration educated being’ with their ‘legal rights’. But somehow at the same time the psychic power of the sexual marriage rituals have become incomprehensible to people, they can’t imagine giving themselves up despite the massive egos that’s always been required to get married. Most people can’t give themselves up and those they do think it’s some social act of love instead of sublime psychic bondage. That’s why the couples kiss in front of everyone, a most extreme act of violence
The honey of the oak brings the laurel with its knowledge of the future. Key Visual Arts has easily made some of the highest tier art of the 20th century, they set the tone in 1999 with Kanon. Most people hate the visual novel version of Kanon because Yuuichi is ‘too mean’, thats how much the mythological symbols go over their head. Most visual novel players are like you >>23141582 where they just want a story and play any sort of slop. It’s supposed to have the sexual listlessness, boredom, and the kind of dumb little pocket realms and the logic it plays around in that world from that sort of individualistic indulgent perspective because why else would someone be playing a visual novel if they didn’t have those bad lazy sort of qualities. If the game doesn’t have that none of the morality makes sense and it wouldn’t have any sort of literary content or meaning at all

>>23142624
They wouldn’t get it. They’ve never known any real sort of moral law. Only playing around in their stories. The whole weight of the stars falling down, like a snowflake to the Earth…

>>23142642
>reading a translation
don't tell me...

>>23142642
Ugguuu..
-Ayu-chan.
Kanon is a KINO key vn, a masterpiece.

>>23136799
The appeal of anime/manga for me is that it isn’t high art. Doujin circle culture is so baked into it, so some of the best works to come out of it are made by obsessive nerds, parodying or paying homage to other creations by obsessive nerds, while being overly-indulgent and celebrating the stupid humor that the medium has to offer. So I hate these conversations about “is anime cinema?” or “are VNs literature?” Cause then you end up with charts like this which recommend things that don’t communicate the heart of anime culture.
I love Angel’s Egg as much as the next guy but when I think of anime, I don’t think of that. Arthouse animation and films like Satoshi Kon’s which have a filmic tone to them are all good, but they don’t harness the true strength of anime, namely the ability to simultaneously be stupid, low brow, full of fan service, etc, while also being genuine and endearing with their themes.
Evangelion is probably the closest to this ideal on the chart. You can’t call Gurren Lagann analogous to “literature” or “cinema,” because it’s a celebration of dumb action and tits, but I know the show’s themes about dualism and perennial wisdom would resonate heavily with 90% of the posters on /lit/. I really enjoyed SubaHibi and Fate/stay Night because the porn and shounen battles reinforced the life affirming themes later on in the text.
Tldr I don’t like the attempts to sell people on “high brow” anime. Those works are great too, but that’s not the true appeal of anime as a whole. And people who reflexively use this stuff to “defend” anime are coping pussies.

>>23142909
would be a good post if you weren't constantly trying to balance everything. truth is, "high brow" anime is dogshit across the board.

>>23142909
VN's are a lot different than anime. My friend that watches a lot of anime recommended something he liked and I dropped it immediately when the main character said bitch at the beginning with this horrible Nickelodeon sitcom guitar music playing. VN's are expected to be a lot more cozy and personal, everything's supposed to be self referential and purposeful. A lot of the art comes from the mystical sexual symbols and contrived tension, the truth of women as spiritual luxury

learn a little bit of syntax! stop separating subject from predicate with commas.

>>23142642
>>23142624
My dog died last year when she was 15 years old. I knew we had to get her put down because she was in pain and occasionally having fits where she would fall over and start yelping. During my last week with her alive, I randomly booted up Kanon after I had stopped playing it two years prior. I had no idea where I was in the story, but apparently I was right in the middle of Makoto’s route.
Everything Yuichi was going through with Makoto was so accurate to my life that it hit me like a truck. I finished the route that night, crying a couple times throughout. It felt like God had spoken to me, through an 18+ visual novel, to tell me it was going to be okay and that it was time to say goodbye to my dog.
Some things in life are simple, and simple stories about befriending a fox girl and returning her to the wild can resonate with you when you’re in a certain mindset. I’ll never forget Kanon for this, and when I’m ready to get a new dog on my own, I plan to name her Makoto.

>>23136140
in the same way that prose, poetry, and plays are separate forms. comic books and video games are separate forms
HOWEVER
in the same way that film studies originated in literature courses and then became its own full fledged department, it makes sense that comic books and video games are big enough that we could see each of them become their own fields in academia
literature in academic study should keep to the commonly accepted forms out of practicality if nothing else

>>23142949
You’re not wrong. Most of the examples on that chart that I’ve seen I’ve generally disliked. Anime excels in melodrama, action, and fetishes, all of which are decidedly not “high brow.”

>>23136140
It's creative work that's written, literature by definition. If you disagree reflect on ego.

>>23142989
Based Kanon enjoyer.
Ultra Based.
I also felt a soul-like positive action from Yuiichi and all the other Kanon characters.

>>23142089
There's more to modern cinema than just Avengers (which is arguably better than japanese capeshit lmao).

>>23136799
why is it that top /lit/ book lists always feature a bunch of genuinely good books, and nobody really gives a shit how popular they are, yet when it comes to anime and manga, apparently they just have to throw in the most trashy faux-obscure hipster shit? just compare these two charts. the ratio of popular classics to hipster trash is way, way more balanced. ironically, the /lit/ top 100 charts get called tryhard, yet not these anime/manga charts.

>>23141391
Ironically one of the most important aspects of Evangelion’s fabled “influence” is the fact that it brought VN culture to a greater anime audience. Moe culture comes from visual novels, and Eva was very up front with its indulgence in moe, ending every episode preview with “service, service!”
This poster probably hates those aspects of NGE because he’s a whining faggot with no sex drive who can’t have fun.

>>23143306
Because anime is literally a medium made by and for incel nerds and most anime fans are self-conscious about that fact and try to obfuscate it.

>>23136241
How are you defining literature?

>>23143328
>>23142624
I'm not a consent culture worshipping leftist retard. The storyline, not the fanservice, is where I find Eva's problems. Although fan service is nice, I don't think pornography is necessary. The self-insert story serves as porn in visual novels, which is what makes it trash.

>>23142085
Film is a medium for normies who are looking for something to quickly self insert themselves into. It's designed for quick entertainment. Very few films are narratively developed well. It's inherently a style over substance medium. If you find substance in style, good for you, but it's a lowbrow medium.

>>23143976
You're just making it clear that you haven't actually watched many films at all. Not surprising, since that's probably the only way you could've come to such a stupid conclusion. If you want to call cinema shallow, you're going to have to call theater, opera, ballet, and so on shallow as well. For whatever reason, it looks like you've just got a thing against film. I don't know if you're just trying to LARP as /lit/ snob or what, but it's extremely embarrassing.

>>23144295
It's OK, anon. You can love film and accept that they have poor, underdeveloped plots at the same time.

>>23144353
Now that I know this is green screened I can’t unsee it

>>23144353
>poor, underdeveloped plots
You just described the bulk of our beloved classics. What are you judging films by, Freytag's pyramid? Really, everything you said in your last post could just as well be applied to literature. Most of it is designed for quick entertainment, marketed towards normalfags looking for something to self-insert into, and is written in a way which prioritizes style over substance. Very, very few books are actually good, especially compared to how many are released each day. That doesn't make literature lowbrow.
>inb4 but that's not literature, only the stuff i like is literature
I expect another witty one-liner from you, or nothing at all.

>>23144405
Well it'd be nice to take recommendations for movies with good plots from you then. For some information I currently have Dune, Moonlight, Mad Max and The Lobster on my watchlist.

Generally speaking, I love things that explore themes of religion, esotericism, horror, existentialism, or conspiracy. Some favorites are Eyes Wide Shut, The Exorcist, The Thing, A Serious Man, etc.

>>23144422
You've probably heard of these before, but these are some good movies which released relatively recently which you may have already watched.
>The Fire Within: Requiem for Katia and Maurice Krafft (2022)
>The Lighthouse (2019)
>Parasite (2019)
>Good Time (2017)
>Summer 1993 (2017)
>Silence (2016)
Then here's just a smattering of films I think are good.
>Honour of the Knights (2006)
>Nobody Knows (2002)
>Mondays in the Sun (2002)
>All About Lily Chou Chou (2001)
>Rosetta (1999)
>Swallowtail Butterfly (1996)
>Sonatine (1993)
>Lessons of Darkness (1992)
>Hanabi (1997)
>Kids Return (1996)
>The Civil War (1990)
>Testuo: The Iron Man (1989)
>Wings of Desire (1987)
>The Death of Empedocles (1987)
>The Mission (1986)
>The Name of the Rose (1986)
>After Hours (1985)
>El sur (1983)
>Fitzcarraldo (1982)
>Excalibur (1981)
>Nosferatu the Vampyre (1979)
>Fox and His Friends (1975)
>Moses and Aaron (1975)
>Barry Lyndon (1975)
>Lancelot du Lac (1974)
>Vérités et Mensonges (1973)
>The Spirit of the Beehive (1973)
>Aguirre, the Wrath of God (1972)
>Throw Away Your Books, Rally in the Streets (1971)
>King Lear (1971)
>A Man for All Seasons (1966)
>An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge (1961)
>Yojimbo (1961)
>Fire in Castilla (Tactilvision from the Moor of the Fright) (1961)
>The 400 Blows (1959)
>Rio Bravo (1959)
>The Seventh Seal (1957) You'd probably like this one.
>Paths of Glory (1957)
>Rififi (1955)
>Ugetsu (1953)
>Alice in Wonderland (1951)
>Diary of a Country Priest (1951)
>Macbeth (1948)
>Under the Bridges (1946)
>The Mascot (1933)
>Die Nibelungen: Siegfried (1924)
>Destiny (1921)
>The Golem: How He Came into the World (1920)

>>23144534
Thanks, anon. I didn't know Werner Herzog was still alive. I will check your list out. Have you read Subarashiki Hibi? It's pretty much the visual novel equivalent of Love Exposure / All About Lily Chou Chou. It's a recommendation.

>>23136140
I would say so, if choose your own adventure books are considered /lit/ then I dont see why VNs would not be considered such.
That said, Visual Novels are mostly just awful so its probably better that I say it isnt literature

>>23141262
The best VNs are literarily closer to YA than any classic

>>23141391
What 3?

https://youtu.be/jbdxiuXVJpc?si=iCJLz07hVZDFtZSo
Got me reading Subahibi and I throughly enjoyed it so why not it could be considered literature. Why are people so enraged...?