/lit/ - Literature

>>23079053
They died spiritually as they lost the grace of god, moron.

>>23079163
Where does it say that?

>>23079053
This story doesn't make any fucking sense. Because evil did not exist until after eating the fruit, good also (indirectly) became an effect of evil rather than something in itself. Romantic love is trust, faith is trust and fidelity. The tree, more specifically the fruit, was something that, if man's faith were corrupted, would ruin his perfect creation, turning it into the worst of hells... without any remedy. Why the hell did God do it?

>>23079194
Of course evil existed before. Before the fall of man, there was the fall of the angels. The possibility to do evil is just the consequenze of free will. Angels and humans have free will, so there must be the possibility of evil.

>>23079244
Where does the bible talk about free will specifically?

>>23079165
Everywhere in the bible.

And as they lost the original grace they eventually died physically. So OP is just a midwit as any other atheist.

>>23079249
Book of Sirach 15, 14.

>>23079252
Quote the verses, don’t know why you are being so defensive and aggressive.

>>23079255
So what about God’s will, does the Bible not also ask you to follow his will, is that not ultimately what he wants?

>>23079274
Yes, but you should do this out of love to him. God didnt create us as mindless drones.

>>23079269
Its just like asking where in the bible it says that Jesus is god.

>>23079283
But he doesn’t need your love, it sounds like your ego won’t accept so you are acting like you are doing him a favour or to show your virtue.

>>23079288
Right again. He doesnt need our love, but we need his love and we need loving him.

>>23079295
Ah, I see. You can’t both love him and fear him so you chose the option that gives you more power.

>>23079053
yeah Eve sleeping with Dayshawn turned out great, look at this beautiful world where everyone cuts their own dick off and can't go outside without a papal bull

>>23079304
Why should it not be possible fearing and loving god alike?

And why i would get power by loving god? Is this a new freudian-atheist take?

>>23079053
God obviously is the good guy in the bible, since Christians wrote it. He sometimes does things we would not associate with good guys, like the whole flood thing, but the book was written with convincing desert-dwelling semites two millennia ago in mind, not us.

>>23079053
The fall in a nutshell.

>>23079318
You obviously don’t know God’s love since there is no fear in love.

>>23079324
How is it not good to wipe out evil?

>>23079331
Romantic love is a reflection of the fear of death though

>>23079351
Did I say romantic love?

>>23079331
Of course there is. As a young boy you can love your father but fear him for his anger and penalities.

>>23079269
>>Everywhere in the Bible
>Quote the verses
Probably because you're asking someone to jump through a bunch of hoops for (almost assuredly) scoffers.

>>23079284
"Before Abraham was I am"? It's all over it.
>inb4 cite every verse

>>23079304
>>23079331
It's not by the love of God that men depart from evil.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

"Progressive Christians" are insufferable. They, and the Papists, will just discard all the verses I quoted (and those I didn't) because it doesn't align with their worldly sensibilities or their religious system.

Are you even aware that God is angry every day? That the wrath of God abides on impenitent sinners, on workers of iniquity? That every day they go on sinning they're storing up yet more of God's wrath?

God isn't some hippie who said "come as you are".

>>23079163
Wow, it really was encoded to be jewish word games capable of retracting and editing claims as needed, all the way back.

>>23079365
Thanks for proving my point, that you're scoffers and nobody should waste their time with you.

>>23079350
I think most people in the west, not even necessarily liberals or atheists, would take issue with a god that decides that most of the earth, aside from a select few, are evil, and wipes them out.
This is very clearly more similar to villains in the modern culture and narratives, than it is to heroes. Why is hard for me to tell, but probably the echo of Hitler and WW2, I imagine this will seem more acceptable in 30 or 40 more years.
Personally, I don't believe that good and evil exist, and just describe things as something I like and something I don't like. That is at least honest.

>>23079354
1 John 4:18 - New International Version

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

>>23079387
It's amazing how Christians don't even know their own book.

>>23079371
>that‘s completely wrong! watch me prove it by running away!
lmao

>>23079395
Is it? Most liberals won't be able to quote Mill or Locke, and most Jews I've met are bad at knowing their Torah.

>>23079400
It is when the people you're arguing with know it better than you almost every time.

>>23079358
jesus implies his godliness dozens of times on top of the pharisees clutching pearls multiple times at his words that clearly mean this, but you'll have these verbatim fallacy erhman types who simply do not want to believe.

>>23079400
>bad at knowing their Torah.

because the real Jews are the Irish, you imbecile

>>23079053
I never understood this story.
I dont even get, how its the first story in the Bible.
It just seems so stupid, and prematurely kills Christianity before we even get to Abraham or Moses or Jesus.
Its weird to me, this one, from all of them is the start.

>>23079387

Look here:
>>23079362

You cant take single verses of the bible as absolutes. They have to be intepreted in the whole context of scripture and tradition.

>>23079325
"take this dick and you finna live forever"
"What, Mr. Snake? I can't hear you over the smoke detector."
"smoke detector?"

>>23079398
>I'm a scoffing retard who bears false witness and thinks I deserve to be baby sat because my parents didn't raise me properly

>>23079424
Yes, because you are not yet perfect and need to be beaten like a dog. Perfect love has no fear.

>>23079416
it sets up why things happen to mankind through out the text of the bible. mankind rejecting god, thinking themselves as gods. how many times did god deliver the israelites only for them to cave to wickedness and false idols? it's a constant theme through out the entire book and why jesus is necessary.

>>23079439
You don't even know the meaning of love, apostate.

>>23079459
Know it better than all you FAKE christians.

>>23079462
Yet you can't prove you do know it with your hateful reply, progressive "love only" apostate.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Is "repent" seen as a dirty word to you as well?

>>23079467
Yes, you are being rebuked. Do you even read the verses you post.

>>23079473
Do you even read what you post or what anyone has posted? And why do you pretend like you care about Scripture when you just discard the dozens of verses that don't suit your progressive worldly sensibilities?

>>23079482
Repent.

>>23079487
So you're just an atheist LARPing to make Christians look bad? It's not like you're contending for the faith as Scripture says to do, you're not ready to hive an answer.

>>23079491
The only LARPers are christians as evidenced by this thread, all their flowery language and they have absolutely no knowledge at all.

>>23079436
My parents raised me very well, I don‘t know how it is you people always find a way to resort to this. I guess this parable about how everything can be blamed on insufficient subordination to jewish volcano demons is a clue.

>>23079365
>>23079398
>>23079502
>My parents raised me very well
They obviously didn't since you're a liar among other things.

>I don‘t know how it is you people always find a way to resort to this.
Because everyone is tired of baby sitting you little brats. You never grew up and you refuse to grow up.

>>23079501
You're in the same boat as the other anon, your parents did a terrible job with you.

I'd belt both of you underage little brats if I could and you'd be better men for it. Not like either of you were ever disciplined.

>>23079514
I'd pummel your head into pulp you little pussy.

>>23079514
Not pointing out your goofy pilpul isn‘t a moral precept, and that you want to make it one followed by blowing a lot of smoke about disciplinary fantasies exposes variably how weak-willed and perverse you are.

ps I lift more than you try it faggot

>>23079520
Sure you would, kid.

>>23079526
Weak projection.

Good to see that discussions on religion still invariably descend to violence. Been like that for centuries, still is. Perhaps something is right with the world after all.

>>23079531
you mean like the vatican going Waco on all the druids? I'm surprised the pope didn't just cut down every tree on earth and replace it with a statue of George Floyd

>>23079535
I was thinking more about the number of times catholics and protestants fought wars with each other.

>>23079053
Of course he's the bad guy. Imagine being such a cowardly faggoty jew of a god you invent a paradoxical thing you call "free will" (still subordinate to your own will regardless, negating its own significance) to specifically alleviate you from your responsibility and shifting the burden onto your subordinates rather than taking charge yourself, despite you being in complete control the entire time. The abrahamic concept of god is literally a pilpulling kike who scapegoats his own creation for his misdoings lol. Why christians scoff at the idea you can bribe and "trick" this shyster through legal loopholes I have no idea. They created him. It's perfectly in character

>>23079643
it's not a paradox at all. god is leaving you with the choice to spend the short time you have on this earth devoted to him and his righteousness so that you can spend eternity by his side, or reject him and spend eternity separate from him. even if you want to misguidedly assign coercion to this, it's still a choice to make. the metoo hollywood sluts still made the choice to fuck weinstein for fame and will pay for that choice in how damaged and alone they are for the rest of their lives.

>>23079663
Psychopaths need followers, you are the slut and god is the jew.

>>23079729
god is a personal being and wants love and companionship. made in his image are we that seek these same things. he leaves this up to you.

>>23079738
So he's a lonely creepy old guy?

>>23079751
just one childish remark after the other. you'll probably scoff once more at this recommendation but try not being this way for a week and seek some character you're obviously lacking in prayer; vocalization of flaws and insecurities you have. just try for once removing a cynical lense to all things that don't currently line up to your views. there is a lot of strength to be gained in accepting you are not alone in this life and realizing you can't control everything; nor do you have the answer or explanation. instead of snark or snide, use more wholesome language. get hobbies and spend some time outside and really appreciate how beautiful this this world and these lives we lead can be.

>>23079779
>no one deserves to believe unless he has
served an apprenticeship of doubt

>>23079663
So if someone holds a gun to your head and says "do my bidding or be shot", do you believe that they have not in any meaningful way restricted your freedom?

>>23079779
> there is a lot of strength to be gained in accepting you are not alone in this life and realizing you can't control everything; nor do you have the answer or explanation. instead of snark or snide, use more wholesome language. get hobbies and spend some time outside and really appreciate how beautiful this this world and these lives we lead can be.
I don't see how this has anything to do with christianity, but this is actually good advice.

>>23079903
Touch grass faggot.

>>23079244
But evil is stricly defined by God, it wouldn't be evil otherwise. Evil is arbitrary.

>>23079880
i'll explain to you how that is a false equivalency after i humor you. it might not seem like a choice if the foundation of the example is operating outside of the existence of an afterlife. presuming god exists and eternity also exists after death, it's clearly a choice and furthermore, what if the bidding in question is wickedness? would that be your excuse to god? i "had no choice" but to commit this heinous act? secondly, a vivid description in hell is never clearly given. jesus spoke in metaphors and parables. this damnation or "bullet to the head" is a place of fire, weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness; what i think of as a separation from god in league with your peers who have also made the same choice you have.

>a small child in a fit of rage, sulking and hating his parents, may feel their hugs and kisses at that moment as torture. by the same principle, the massive beauty of an opera may be torture to someone blindly jealous of its composer. the "fires" of hell may be made of the very love of god, or rather by the damned's hatred of that love. the thing the damned wish for- happiness on their own selfish terms- is impossible even for god to give. it does not exist.

according to the scriptures, the fire that consumes sinners at the coming of god's kingdom is the same fire that will shine with splendor in the saints. "for our god is a consuming fire" and those who love god and who love all creation in him, the consuming fire of god will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. for those who do not love god and who do not love at all, the same fire will be the cause of their weeping and gnashing of teeth. it's up to you, anon, and i pray you open up your heart.

>>23079790
i myself spent 20 years in that apprenticeship and just hope to help others on their path.

>>23079903
feeling the holy spirit is going to happen outside of your normal senses. i hope my advice helps you. god will always walk beside you and never give up on you.

>>23079194
Without evil there is no incentive to improve. Paradise 24/7 makes one lax and lazy.

>>23080083
>i myself spent 20 years in that apprenticeship and just hope to help others on their path

“Truth is a pathless land.”

>>23079163
>grace of god = being an unaware, lobotomized unconscious drone

sounds like paradise indeed

>>23080083
>>23079880 and >>23079903 are both me, so I'll try to answer both.

> if the foundation of the example is operating outside of the existence of an afterlife.
Yes, but that's kind of the point. It's a pretty tenuous proposition for me, and believing it would force me to accept a position that is less dignified than I'd like.
That doesn't necessarily make it bad. Ultimately the typical human experience consists of telling yourself (or being told and believing) fictions that make reality bearable and acceptable. I genuinely have no gripe with that you choose this kind of fiction for yourself, if that makes your life better go ahead. It just doesn't resonate with me the way it does with you.

The fiction I prefer, which is why I said that this
>realizing you can't control everything; nor do you have the answer or explanation. instead of snark or snide, use more wholesome language. get hobbies and spend some time outside and really appreciate how beautiful this this world and these lives we lead can be.
is good advice, sees the world as pointless, senseless chaos. A ship that sails through uncharted (and perhaps unchartable) seas with nobody at the helm, at the mercy of the totality of weather, sea, and the actions of everyone on board. I see a kind of beauty and a kind of liberty in that - I owe nothing, I know next to nothing, and nothing I do will be of any consequence, so I might as well have some fun with the time I have. If that belief means that after I die, I will end up in a totally opposite reality and one where I have to suffer, so be it - I would have gotten there of my own accord, and will have some kind of experience to deal with that reality. I don't plan to be concerned with it until then.

>>23080155
i hope hitchens came to his senses before his passing. i truly doubt he led a happy and fulfilling life and hope, as often happens with atheists near their end, he made peace with god. there are no atheists in the foxholes.

>>23080192
i think you are on your way, then. it reminds me of myself when i was younger. have a great weekend, anon.

>>23080230
Thanks. You too!

>>23080200
>there are no atheists in the foxholes.
Somehow this is always said as if it's a takedown of atheism. I never really understood why. If I you need to kill someone, you need a rifle, if you need to write a letter, you need pen and paper. Pen and paper are badly suited for killing people and rifles are badly suited for writing letters. That doesn't mean that rifles or pens and papers are "bad", they just have their time and place. Atheism is one of the beliefs best suited for when life is fine and plentiful, christianity is one of the beliefs best suited for when life is hard and nasty.

>>23080293
so life is easier than ever before in history for most of the world and we get more and more secular by the year, why all the dysfunction? why does "human flourishing" seem so nebulous and contradictory in so many ways?

>>23080442
>why does "human flourishing" seem so nebulous and contradictory in so many ways?
Because it benefits subversive parasites more than anyone else. it's a double-edged sword

>>23080442
> why all the dysfunction?
I'd argue there's much less dysfunction now than there's ever been. Sure, mass media are crap, mass entertainment is crap, and for me (and I'd wager for you too) it's hard to relate to modern culture. But we have alternatives and they're pretty much at an arm's length - you can grab whatever classical book from the internet, you can lead a hermitic existence, you can pick and choose the vidya and films and music that you like and live in the world of information you've curated for yourself. Same with socialization - if this was the 1950s, mine and your social circles would have been limited to the people that physically live close to us. I'd probably go mad from loneliness or be forced to pretend to be someone I am not for all my life to have companions. But in 2024, here we are, discussing religion and the meaning of existence on a Javanese airborne basket weaving forum, being maybe half a world away from each other.
Same with relationships - a few decades ago not being settled and married as a man would have raised questions about whether you are "deficient" or not to most people in society. You could be denied a job because the boss thinks you're a weirdo longer and we don't want your kind in the office. Your parents would think there's something seriously wrong with you. Right now, who gives a shit? Yes, there will be twitter users laughing at people like you on their blogs that nobody reads, and you'll have to deal with not being able to relate to the 14th of February, but isn't that, in perspective, much easier?
I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

>>23080557
Now that I read what I wrote, I'd probably start the first sentence differently. I should better say not
> there's much less dysfunction now than there's ever been
but there's a much broader range of things that would have previously been considered dysfunction, but are perfectly sustainable as a way of life now.

>>23080111
Lmao are you trying to use a cope to say that our world is better than Eden? Eden is the highest mass ideal, no one would be lazy because laziness is a sin and sin is evil.

>>23080557
i think you might still be referring to the "ease" of life while i'm referring to mental health and those types of dysfunctions. finland, the "happiest" country in the world is experiencing people ages 18-24 with as 30% suicide rate. i'm talking about record levels of depression in the western world based on obviously self reported happiness metrics that have plummeted since the 50s. divorce rates are sky high with the chances of children being raised in a nuclear family(i gigantic factor in determining a child leading a healthy life) quickly diminishing. there is a massive push in the united states for sexualizing children and even considering children as a legal sexual preference in minnesota. the last 100 years has brought more murder and death than the previous 2000 years combined; millions and millions of people under atheist regimes in russia and china alone, the same china currently maintaining uyghur muslim camps.

>>23080666

>>23079053
Maltheism is an option, yes.

>>23079053
Adam and Eve do not have the knowledge of Good and Evil when they choose to eat the fruit (this is axiomatically true since the fruit is what bestows the knowledge of Good and Evil). That very knowledge is what is required for moral culpability. Despite this, God punishes Adam and Eve for an act they categorically cannot have responsibility for. Literally the first few pages of the Bible and it's morally incoherent and God acts in a retarded and evil manner.

>>23079053
Yeah, he’s like Frampt from Dark Souls 1

>>23080624
What exactly would you *do* in Eden?

>>23079514
>I'd belt both of you underage little brats if I could and you'd be better men for it
Because they'd be primed for taking it up the ass?

>>23079487
Why?

>>23081270
I don't know, much more than I can do now since I could at least talk with God.

>>23081177
>god says "eat the fruit and you will die"
>wow god is an asshole, they didn't know the snake was a liar and that disobeying god was wrong

>>23079053
>kills millions of people
I'd say so

>>23081849
Okay, why did he make childbirth painful and men's work hard?

>>23081642
That's cool and all, but also kind of pointless since there'd be no real reason to talk to God at that point other than being bored.

>>23081177
It's a creation myth. Broadly the origin story of humanity. And imo specifically an origin of freewill in which the creator is intentionally duplicitous to test his creations capacity for independent thought.

There is no point assigning morality during creation because it just is.

>>23083095
What?
So "Genesis" its not a story with morals as the point, then?
Then what's the actual point of the story?
Being just a "creaton" story, is not a good answer.
Lik, what im actually suppose to take away from it, then???

>>23079053
>>23079194
>evil did not exist until after eating the fruit [of the tree of Knowledge]

They were not yet free/conscious but chose to become so.

>>23083106
Every single culture has amoral creation myths with stuff like ocean being a woman raped by the moon and whatever the fuck. They're just stories to scratch the itch of big questions at a minimum and at a maximum they're propaganda that supports the culture's practices.

>>23083140
But then what's the importance of Genesis to Christianity???
If its just an "amoral" story, then i don't see even a point to it.
So im confused as to what is the point of it, then.

>>23083150
Not every story in the bible has a moral point to it. Genesis is there to explain where the world came from and why we are the way we are, that's all.

>>23083095
Why personify a "creator" if he is going to be amoral or even outright immoral? It makes no sense. It really just plays into the idea that this only resonates with people who have father issues.

>>23083153
But then how do you explain,the tree of knowledge the fruit and Adam's and Eve's and God's action in Genesis?
It is clearly indicating some sort of moral conflict.
So im confused, how such a story, could be considered "amoral", just a "creation" story.

>>23079284
If it's everywhere in the Bible, it should be easy for you to quote a couple of verses, right?

>>23080111
>actually, Heaven is bad
This is your brain on Christianity.

>>23083153
I prefer the Greek idea. The gods were bored and decided to make little automatons out of clay but once we automatons gained fire and power they became afraid of us. That, at least, maps more directly on to how we arose out of the natural order to a level of power to rival that of gods. This whole business of a father figure who set a test for us and then punished us for being very bad little boys and girls smacks of psychopathology. This is a story for people with very specific complexes.

>>23080111
>Bro, we need children to starve or die of bone cancer, bro, hear me out bro, we might get lax and lazy otherwise
Is this your brain on religion?

>>23083166
It's your brain trying to rationalize evil and misfortune. Everyone wants the misfortunes and tragedies in their life to have a "point", to make themselves believe their suffering means something.

>>23083169
Try reading "The Plague" by Camus before going down that particular path. In short, if you try to make Evil have some redeeming feature, you begin to justify adding more Evil, since, if the Evil already present has a point, why wouldn't more Evil add to the point? It's self defeating.

>>23083176
Not saying I believe it myself, just explaining why other's might.

>>23083166
>mankind should feed the starving
>mankind should cure cancer instead of making an industry off bullshit chemo

The bible is a work of fiction written by actual psychopaths for the sole aim of conditioning humanity over thousands of years to willingly submit to the authority of countless psychopaths throughout the world.

Nowhere in the book does god show mercy to the main characters, instead he sadistically tortures them all and repeatedly sets them up to fail.

This book is mind control, it conditions you to see good as evil and evil as good, slavery as freedom and knowledge as stupidity.

The first story is man being punished for learning about good & evil. What type of person would not want you knowing about such things? How else would you differentiate good from evil? If knowledge is power, the powerful would certainly want you to remain ignorant.

>>23083300

>>23081270

Nothing.

>>23083377
>A fat guy with a fedora is more rational than most christians
How can christfags ever recover?

>>23083407
So you basically just sit on your ass or nap all the time? How is that any different from what I do now?

Christians are narcissists.

>>23083492

>Just making shit up and clearly not getting the point of the bible
>more rational

Ok.

>>23083492
The fedora guy broke them.
Lol.
They been using that image for 10 years now, as an strawman for anyone that slightly expresses just the tiniest dislike of religion.
Its amazing how much the christfags, broke.
Lol.

Aren't Christians worse than Jews since they only sacrifice chickens?

God in the Books of Moses is embarrassing, and I find it bizarre how the Psalms sing about how amazing God, how kind etc when he regularly killed the Israelites in the desert flippantly and gave them a hard time. The God depicted during that period does not match the one in the rest of the Old and New Testaments and doesn't make any sense.

>>23083606
Exactly.
Its like there are different (God's) in the Bible.
And im not talking about the pagans or the enemies of Israel,no, im talking about the main (supossed) trinity. So Yahweh/holy spirit/Jesus.
1 for Adam, 1 for moses, 1 for abraham, 1 for paul, luke, 1 for romans.... you get the point.
There all supposed to be Yahweh/holy spirit/Jesus, but they act completely different each chapter.
There is like 5 yahweh's, like 5-6-7 Jesus'es in the apostles that act completely different+romans+every ot Jesus (supossed) prophesy, and the holy spirit is a complite mess, that changes the most of the 3,in uses, and in characterization+whatever the fuck is happening in revelation.
I dont get how anybody sane, can't argue that the bible are it's characters are not a mess.
It's the most inconsistent book ever, know to man.

>>23079400
Mill and Locke are just points of historical interest that help gain some insight into the origins of ideas we've come to accept, no one thinks their words are infallible.

>>23083626
>It's the most inconsistent book ever, know to man.
That's because it's not a book at all, it is dozens of free-standing books stapled together.

>>23083626
>>23083682
I think that's the crux of the matter, whilst some books fit well together and make more sense, there are others that are nonsensical. Because people have been told it's all the word of God, hoops have to be jumped through to make it all fit.

>>23083682
Yes, i get that's probably why.
But Christians act as if everything makes sense, as if every Yahweh is the same, or if every Jesus in the apostles is the same, or as if there's actually a concrete version of the holy spirit.

>>23083712
The relationship between Christians and the Old Testament is fascinating and a bit odd, it probably varies by denomination but even within denominations the importance of it varies.

>>23083720
And that just makes it weirder to me.
Its like they stiched together a religion from an already stiched religion and then that also broke to its own branches.
But the result of that, is that now the bible is a complete mess in terms of its characterization of the triunal god.
Its so weird to me.

>>23083733
The Trinity definitely is a mess

>>23083742
Yeah, i can actually see why some people that are Christians don't actually believe it.
Because it really is a mess.
But even without the trinity, each of the characters are still a mess, themselves.
Like i said There is like 5 yahweh's, like 5-6-7 Jesus'es in the apostles that act completely different+romans+every ot Jesus (supossed) prophesy, and the holy spirit is a complite mess.
So even without the trinity, there is still no continuity in each chapter of the bible in terms of characterization.
Its so confusing.

>>23083769
I'm not sure if Jesus varied that much in the Gospels, I think the authors chose to highlight different aspects or teachings of him. Personally I don't see what's wrong with the Father being the creator and the main God, the Holy Spirit being how he interacts with this reality, and Jesus being his human avatar, part God and part man, which would just keep it as a monotheistic religion without any of the trinity stuff.

>>23083493

No, since "sitting" and "napping" are instances of doing.

>>23083509
Crucifixion absolutely was not the most excruciating way to kill someone, spending two minutes reading about torture on wikipedia will tell you this. Crucifixion actually kills people fairly quickly, a few hours maybe, they tire themselves out and lose the ability to draw themselves up for a breath and suffocate. Sure, that's not fun, but it's nothing compared to some of these ridiculous ways you hear about. Most of the time they didn't even use nails, they just tied them up, and quite often they just killed the person beforehand to save themselves the trouble, the point was really just to display their body.

>>23083150
if i had to guess at what the Jewish writers of this tale had in mind it is that the tree of knowledge represents their religion and that the lying god that kicks them out of paradise represents the god-kings of lands they were being expelled from.

>>23084370
Jesus had the shit beaten out of him beforehand so it wasn't just that

>>23084381
Does it not represent free will? That before the fall of man it was impossible for us to sin?

>>23084388
sure that a framing that can work too....

....but you gotta make sure your framing makes sense with the whole Adam's rib thing

>>23084403
He removed his rib so he could suck his own dick

>>23079053
He looks that way because the book was written by Jews. Of course they would try to make a morally perfect being look evil.

>>23084381
Close, it's literally just the story of your typical jewish psychopathic family.

>instil guilt & shame in kids
>blame them for everything
>it was perfect until you came along
>tell them you regret having them