/lit/ - Literature

ive just started the way of zen. it is rad. gives an overview of buddhism and its history then specialises in taoism. from what i've read, there's plenty of discussion about the disparity between western and eastern thought process, too

i do recommend

Da bible

"Blue Jean Buddha" - Sumi Loundon

Also, there's a couple of somewhat hippie spiritual books by Jack Kornfield that are kinda interesting. He's an American buddhist teacher and humanist psychologist.

>>2295396

gonna recommend some deep underground buddhist shit
you better be experienced cuz it wont make any sense if ur a noob

its straight up hard shit, no superstition, no charms and no bullshit

it may seem mystical but its not, so take it one step at a time

http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/
or google: wei wu wei

>>2295416
ive read the bible
it has good stories with DEEP meanings/philosophy but i was thiking more eastern..such as Asian/Hindi but not "Hindu" readings yet

>>2295396
zen is Japanese right? does explain how its related to Taoism? or just looks into Taoism on its own?

>>2295396
no idea about that, but HORY SHIT, dem legs

Siddjartha by Herman Hesse

>>2295482
korean legs meng

Go to the horses mouth OP. The Pali cannon is a decent place to start. This is a lovely edition of th emiddle length discourses:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Middle-Length-Sayings-Translation-Majjhima-Nikaya/dp/086171072X/ref=sr_1_sc_
1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325578814&sr=8-1-spell

>I don't really care about deities or any of that stuff, im rather interested in the ideology and philosophy.

Don't worry. Half a decade or so of Buddhism should at least get you before the looking glass, if not actually through it. Then you convert to Hinduism.

>>2295396
How about a source on that image, OP?

Forget the theology, who's the owner of dem pins?

bump for great justice

I'd recommend reading zen poetry, but you might need some introduction to buddhism before you can really understand them (you can watch alan watts, shunryu suzuki or krishnamurti on youtube for that) . They chill me the fuck out tho.

check this out for starters: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/poems.htm

Good Question, Good Answer is a very straight forward, easy to understand introduction to general Buddhism.

And it's available free from Buddhanet's eBook library (which is a fantastic resource):
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/gqga-4ed.pdf

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_a_Monk

fifty eastern thinkers published by routledge press is a great introduction. it deals with the main schools and thinkers in each school. its also non fiction, please either read actual scripture or non fiction on buddhism, things like siddhartha and zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance will not give you more than a highly superficial understanding of buddhism. if you want philosophy read some of dogen's writings.

lol, which buddhism, op? The religion is 2400 years old and has gathered lots of ornaments over the years and has split into many different schisms.

For a westerner with no introduction to the religion, I'd start by reading Steve Hagen's "Buddhism, Plain and Simple"(extremely simplified and Zen). Then listen to Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s audio lecture series "Introduction to Buddhism" available free at urbandharma (along with lots of other buddhist(mostly Theravada) resources. Then if you want you can actually start reading buddhist texts. The Dhammapada is a good one to start with, then you can read the Long and Middle Discourses (the poster above linked a good one.)

>>2295428
>zen is Japanese right? does explain how its related to Taoism? or just looks into Taoism on its own?

Zen is essentially the product of when Buddhism was exported to China and blended with Taoist teachings. The legends say that it was brought there by Bodhidharma, an Indian sage. So one could say that it is Indian in origin, but I would say Chinese. The Chinese variant is called Ch'an, the Japanese variant is called Zen, and the Korean one is called Seon. There's nothing wrong with calling them all Zen, but there are differences between countries and schools. The word Ch'an seems to come from the Sanskrit Dhyāna, which means meditation.

I'm seriously looking into Buddhism myself. I've always been interested in the Zen schools, but lately I'm looking into Vajrayana, which is a form of Buddhism most known in it's Tibetan variant. While I like the 'no fuss' minimalist approach of Zen, I do tend to feel lost in it sometimes. When Zen is exported to the west, it seems to me that all that remains is sitting on a cushion a lot (the practice of zazen, sitting meditation) and not thinking. I know it sounds contradictory when I say the following concerning a tradition that is about the absence of grasping, but the whole zen way of doing things often fails to inspire me to practice meditation and live by the dharma. In that way, I find Vajrayana Buddhism a bit more engaging and understandable.

I've gotten my basic knowledge about zen online and from Shunryu Suzuki and Alan Watts. Both are recommended. Concerning the Tibetan variant I've looked into the Dalai Lama, Sakyong Mipham and Trunga Rinpoche.

>>2295821
what exactly do you like about vajrayana? from what i've read about it, it seems like the most superstitious, with figures like milarepa, etc. and the spinning poles(?). tsong kha pa seems cool though.

1/2


>>2295835

It's hard to explain, I guess I like the style of it. And I think I would find the different forms of meditation interesting. Not just zazen or samatha meditations but also things like guru meditation or visualization of Boddhisattva's.

I don't think these things have to be taken literal in the sense of interacting with deities. I see them as powerful psychological tools or upaya/skillfull means if you will. Vajrayana is very 'tricked out' as a form of Buddhism, but I like the way of adding all kind of different ways to enlightenment. Some of it might be interpreted as superstition, but I guess when you come to a certain point where you see individual existence of the self as a superstition, the whole thing kind off falls apart and you won't be bothered with the intellectual truth of the existence of some deity. You're concerned with enlightenment after all, not with rational knowledge of the universe. I had the same reservations about it as yourself (concerning the superstitions) but after a while it just seemed like it wasn't really an important issue.

2/2

It's a very rich tradition in general and closer to Hinduism in style I think. It draws me in in some way. Hope I don't sound to vague, but it's a bit like explaining why you prefer jazz over classical music or something like that.

Another thing that is important to me in a practical sense is that the Vajrayana is very much alive where I live (Western Europe). There are lot of meditation centers in different traditions which are donation based and in that way very open. The Zen centers around here seem to be little more than meditation workshops which often charge a lot of money, at least for a poor bum such as myself.

I'm looking into the Shambala tradition at the moment, as it seems pleasantly directed towards westerners without losing the essence. And I like the Sakyong who leads it, which is important too I guess. I've also looked into Diamond Way Buddhism but I can't stand Ole Nydahl.

>>2295742

Very nice. I'm not OP but thanks a lot.

this one

Bump, any more?

>>2295396
Alan Watts was an interesting, charismatic philosopher, some of his lectures were recorded and you can torrent dozens of hours of them. Surprised no one's mentioned him yet, I highly recommend him.

Also, Siddhartha by Herman Hesse.

The Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha was where I started (after learning some Hinduism through the Upanishads and the Ramayana) and it served me well at the time.

>>2296432

>Alan Watts was an interesting, charismatic philosopher, some of his lectures were recorded and you can torrent dozens of hours of them. Surprised no one's mentioned him yet, I highly recommend him.

He's more of an entertainer. I love his stuff though.

If it ain't Nagarjuna, it ain't shit.

>>2296432
I love Watts. My father introduced me to his books when I was a teenager.

OP, what you read should be based on what you want to get out of Buddhism. There are esoteric and exoteric sects. There's poetry, prayer, and everything in between... I'm studying (not practicing) Shingon because I was captivated by Kukai's life. Being Buddhist is like saying you're Christian... that covers a huge range and variety of views and attitudes within.

Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters.
When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest.
For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.

>>2296470

Is that girl supposed to be one of Mara's daughters in the movie?

>>2296490

Could you tell me what you like/find interesting specifically about Shingon/Japanese Vajrayana?

>>2296843

Get out of here, Suzuki. We're still trying to push past that vague mystical nonsense you infected the west with.

>>2298406

How is that mystical?

>it is what it is
>oh shit it's actually of a different nature then I thought
>still is what it always was though

>>2298431

He (you?) didn't finish the anecdote.

>After the lecture the question was asked: "Dr. Suzuki, what is the difference between 'men are men and mountains are mountains' before studying Zen and 'men are men and mountains are mountains' after studying Zen? Suzuki answered: "Just the same, only somewhat as though you had your feet a little off the ground."'

>>2296439
In the sense that he "entertained" Zen Buddhism as an idea. He was not a Buddhist, and was explicit in saying so in all his lectures

>>2298435

I didn't post the anecdote, but I see. I've seen the 'feet of the ground' part on its own though. Actually made me laugh because while I'm from claiming enlightenment or being an accomplished practitioner I do think I recognized the state of mind he refers too after meditation.

>>2298445

He did refer to himself as a 'zennist' sometimes I believe, which must be to seperate himself from the Buddhism in Zen Buddhism. I also had the impression he was quite taken by Taoist principles.

But then you have that whole 'the world is a play in which God plays hide and seek with himself' outlook of him that has more to do with Hinduism than anything else.

Wonderful lecturer and writer I think, but in the end I wonder if he wouldn't have fared better if he actually practiced within a certain tradition. Eclecticism is fine and dandy if you just want to play around or be intellectually free, but in the end the lack of a certain path wears you down.

Don't be a Buddhist if you're a white privileged American please and thank you.

>>2299532
Why?

>>2295396

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Sutra-Red-Pine/dp/1582432562

>>2299532
Maaaaan, I used to be Buddhist before it was cool.

>>2299714
When did it became cool?

Am I the only one jerking it to OP's picture?

>>2301302

I jerked it to it like a day or two ago when the thread first went up. Those legs are sexy.

>>2301314
Oh I was looking at that ripped Buddhist. Fag.

>>2301333
>ripped

Does he even lift?

Buddhist anon here. I will give you what many consider to be the best Buddhist books out there.

Siddhartha - Herman Hesse. This is just a novel, beautiful book, however. Gives the ideology of Buddhism in a story.

What the Buddha Taught - Some long name I forgot. A short condensed version of Buddhism. I highly recommend this over the others. It has an atheistic leaning, but slightly touches the spiritual. If you want to read more, continue with the next book listed.

In the Buddha's Words - Bhikku Bodhi. One of the first explanations of Buddhism brought to the western world. This book is very complete and well written. It includes both the atheistic side and the spiritual sides of Buddhism, along with explanations on everything else, from meditation to monastic rules. From sources listed in this book, you'll know where to keep reading should you choose too.

>>2301338

Could you share some more about your Buddhism? Any particular denomination/tradition? Part of a sangha? Meditation practice? Other ways in which you practice?

what is it with white people converting to buddhism

>>2301471
Rational and compatible with modern life yet still fulfills spiritual needs and gives structure to life while still recognizing flux and emptiness. I see it as a potentially satisfying way to dealing with nihilism instead of evading it. Also huge benefits of habitual meditation.

>>2301490
Also, excuse my for retarded sentences, I was quite distracted.

>>2301492
Me. This is why people need meditation.

>>2301490
why is faith in enlightenment better than faith in anything else?

>>2299532

>that feel when Gautama himself was the closest equivalent to a enormously privileged white kid of the Indian social system at the time.

>>2301497

I wouldn't call it faith, that reeks too much of Christianity. It also sounds passive. There is a Buddhist way of life that is supposed to deliver people from suffering, which is achieved through practice and insight. When one has reached the desired state of being one is called enlightened.

One actively works to recreate oneself, to achieve a paradigm shift so to speak. This is closer to what the ancient philosophers practiced (stoics and epicureans for example) than a monotheistic salvationism that is mostly based on worship and prayer.

>>2301513
read tolstoy's the gospel in brief, he presents jesus' teachings in such a way that there is little difference between 'the kingdom of god' and 'enlightenment'.
and it is faith. to my knowledge, no empiricist evidence exists of enlightenment, what cannot be stated as a fact can only be held in faith.

>>2301517
>>2301517

This is why I'm a Christian Anarchist and a Hindu/Buddhist-Mystic.

l'étranger because meursault is a buddhist

>>2301517

I've read that work. Interesting, but not the thing for me. The wrong 'flavour', if I may say so. I'm glad to have read it though.

I think the whole question of enlightenment is partly a game of definition. There's also no empiricist evidence of happiness, for example, yet many people strive for it.

> what cannot be stated as a fact can only be held in faith.

Do I hear some Wittgenstein in there? He was the reason I got interested in The Gospel in Brief, actually. Anyway, I agree with you, but crippled as I am by a habit of severe skepticism I would say that this means that there is nothing that can be stated as a fact, and every claim of truth or fact is merely a very strong form of belief or faith.

This leaves me in a weird place of course, because from this position every step towards some sort of system of thought seem both wide open and closed at the same time. From this position of doubt I tend to gravitate to either some form of Eastern thought (mostly Buddhist) or Stirnerism. While the latter seems very liberating at first, it leaves me empty and miserable in the long run. Or at least that is what I've concluded for now. It reminds me of what Bukowski said somewhere in Women: "People with no morals often considered themselves more free, but mostly they lacked the ability to feel or love."

hi >>2298406
>>2296843 here

as I see it:
>we look at the mountains, but we look at them with prejudice.
>we realise this, but can only see 'the truth' briefly
>we actually put this into practice, our everyday life.
but you probably know this already.

btw, this is a poem by Ching-yuan

>>2301648
nice. u know about sufism?
>>2301812
i think we're pretty similar people. im not extremely skeptical yet but i probably will be when i read more epistemology. are you into nishitani btw? your thing relating buddhism and nihilism led me to think that you are

>>2301821
one more thing:
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/filosofia/searching_bull.html

I like this thread. I disagree with some point of views, but I'm not in the mood for debate and I don't know much shit about it either.

Even so, I strongly recommend the Dharmapada for a good start. But one should be aware of its translation problems. I didn't read it in English, so I don't know about the editions out there. Find one with a good amount of footnotes and a nice introduction. It's worse to misunderstand something than try not to understand it at all, I believe. Some terms are made into an approximate term, but they have multiple meanings, a wide definition and you need to read it with all your care. It was written, if I recall, 50 years after Siddharta's death and before that, it was just spoken. Although I can feel they cared for accuracy, some meaning was lost. In fact, Siddharta himself said this is not something one can explain to the other, some meaning is always lost.

>>2301851
>are you into nishitani btw?

I'm afraid I never even heard of him. Will look into it though, thank you.

You might like Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh. I recommend reading the book, although there's a pretty good doco on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI2lD5Nre08)) based on the book.

The author of the book, Helena Norberg-Hodge, first visited Ladakh before it got westernized and writes about the past, as she experienced it, and the present state of 'Little Tibet'.
The buddhist Ladakhis led very content, self-sufficient lives, with no worries, really. But that changed when they saw westerners that could spent more in a day than they could in a year.
They couldn't envision the amounts of stress we bare daily to earn that meaningless money, so they started to transition their society, gradually becoming more and more like us.

>>2295422
>>2295422
>>2295422
thank you

you need no thing but your Self, OP.

that's the whole point of the Dhammapada.

Pft, nothing else is needed beyond work (your struggle, distraction, or purpose) and friends (cultivating your intellectual and personal growth).

>>2302009

Needed? For what, satisfaction and happiness? I never understood people who have a job and have a social life and are okay with just that. Call me the seeker, or something.

>>2302009
Nothing at all is needed, really.

Supernatural power and marvelous activity -
Drawing water and carrying firewood.

>>2302184

That's a nice one. Alan Watts has a nice way of picking such quotes in the Way of Zen.

The master said, “Shouldering a staf you wander this way and that, East or West, South or North, knocking at the wild stumps as you please.

>>2302287
I should read The Way of Zen...

Yes, you should.

I'm reading Sakyong Mipham's Ruling Your World now, was afraid it would be too self-helpy but he's actually quite a boss.

Am looking into his fathers work, Trunga Rinpoche, too. Anyone got any experience/recommendations concerning his works?

hi,
would someone tell us about their meditation practices?
More in-depth explanation would help me a lot.

>>2304266

I just started getting into it again. I used to practiced shikantaza (form of zazen which is 'empty concentration' if you will, learned by books and internet, no actual personal teacher I'm afraid) for about twenty to forty minutes a day for a while. This didn't last long though and I've gone for years without meditation, reading angry Germans and such.

Now that I'm looking into Shambhala Buddhism (Western offshoot of Tibetan Vajrayana) it rekindled my desire to meditate, so I started to look for the basics in their tradition. The basic meditation they teach to beginners is called samatha or peaceful/calm abiding and doesn't seen to differ much from the zen meditation I used to practice.

I found this video to be a quite pleasant and clear introduction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-SC1je3NZQ

I'm still rather lost myself though. I can get into the basic forms of meditation which don't differ much per tradition it seems, but I don't really know where I want to go with all this. I'm still exploring different traditions and getting an idea of which speaks to me the most.

http://buddhisttorrents.blogspot.com

mite be interesting

Pure land all day errfdsay

>>2302184
>Supernatural power and marvelous activity


doesnt exist

>Drawing water and carrying firewood.

does

>>2302086
No. You misunderstand me. The point is not to seek anything. that would be ignorant and naive.

Just being embedded in your life with it's suffering and it's pleasure is all you can do.

I have a theory that the Buddhist philosophy of renunciation of the physical world is a reaction to the brutally harsh reality of life for most people in asia throughout history.

Why struggle to survive when it's all an illusion anyway? Give up, draw inward and die.

>>2304796
I find the contemporary desire and need for 'personal theologies' through introspection and meditation rather repugnant. The beauty of religion has always been the social organisation. Sharing is caring. the sympathies evoked from recognising our shared experience is much more wonderful. it's amazing that there so many unique people in the world and yet commonalities in our thought remain high. We all have the same ideas because our experiences are so similar and that should be celebrated. Just think of whenever you've been curious of something, chances are no matter how strange and obscure it seems to you, it's already been asked and answered on Yahoo Answers. I don't agree with much of the doctrine. I wouldn't call myself a believer, but the thing that elevates Christianity particularly Catholicism above all other theologies is the crucial recognition of our shared humanity. It's the only religion for which God actually is human. He sacrifices a part of himself to share in what we are.

Do you guys consider Jesus to be a bodhisattva?

>>2304796
But they are overcoming the shit of daily life through prayer, you get the same in christian thought where life is just a test to get into god's secret club.
>>2304814
Social organization is the byproduct, not the intent. Otherwise you'd see more theology-based governments, when often they just borrow from theology.
Faith is a bit of a foreign concept but I think that people who hold onto something positive simply live better than other people. Doesn't have to be religion. Like in World of Darkness where a guy fends off a vampire because he has faith in money with a credit card.

>>2304844
>Social organization is the byproduct, not the intent.

Doesn't mean it's still not the best outcome.

>I think that people who hold onto something positive simply live better than other people

it's a foreign concept because of the way it's up in religious contexts. it's heralded as something more than hope which is actually all that it is. When you consider that it's just hope, you realise that while you be 'living better' because of it, you may also be deluding yourself into comfort, inviting inevitable disappointment.

>>2304839
im so happy you think that, assuming you do. i think he was.

>>2304796
>renunciation of the physical world

Nope. It's not ascetic Hinduism or something like that. Buddhism states that we suffer, which comes from desire and clinging/attachment. The physical world is not 'evil' as in some strange gnostic dualism. It's empty and in flux, and realizing this we might stop thinking and acting as if it were not, thus ending suffering.

>>2304893
cant stop thinking until dead.

>acting as if it were not [empty and in flux]

ah so it's actually more similar to the typical delusions of western theology then.

>>2304893

>The physical world is not 'evil' as in some strange gnostic dualism.

Pretty much a matter of wording, considering Buddhism still considers material life something one should strive to rid oneself of having to endure.

>>2304894

I think you misunderstood me, or I misunderstand you. I said that the goal is to stop the denying of the state of flux and emptiness, not counter it with some mythical plane of eternity.

>>2304922

Where did you get this from? And which form of Buddhism are you referring too? I've never heard one Buddhist teacher say such things.

>>2304796
But wasn't the first Buddha a prince or had some noble title?

>>2304380

>>2305172

He was. But one day outside of the palace he saw an old man, a sick man and a corpse, by which he was confronted with the suffering of life that /everyone/ has to endure, in other words, the "brutally harsh reality of life" that we all have to endure. So he set out to find a way to deal wit hit.

>>2305029
sorry i read you the wrong way. but in any case. it doesnt end suffering it only accepts the nothingness. maybe you consider that solace. thats up to you. also, its not suffering, its an inconsistency between what we want and what there is. simply, it's absurd. absurdity. camus etc.

>>2305243
it follows that the solution isnt to accept meaninglessness passively and fatalistically. that would be suicidal. instead all we struggle with it. its not suffering, its actually bliss.

Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter.

I'm not even kidding. If you are serious about Zen Buddhism you will read this book because it will bring you closer to understanding the things that matter in Zen more than any book that is actually about Zen (which makes sense, from a Zen perspective - the deepest Zen masters do not practice Zen).

>>2305297
>the deepest Zen masters do not practice Zen
wat

>>2305319

He probably means that they live zen in such a way that one does not 'stink of zen', one does not act holy or perform rituals or meditates in a zendo. It's continual realization during everyday life.

Be prepared to spend a year or more reading GEB two to four pages at a time. I read it when it first came out over thirty years ago and it remains one of the best books I've ever read.

PS The Zen you can practice is not Zen. True Zen comes from within. The practice and rituals exist to help you reach that state. This is why traditional rituals or even motorcycle maintenance can assist you achieve the state.

The Gateless Gate

>>2305029

>I've never heard one Buddhist teacher say such things.

Isn't Samsara the process of being constantly, cyclically reincarnated into, and therefore, having to endure, a material life that's ultimately unsatisfying?

And isn't Nirvana the cessation of said cycle?

Because as far as I'm concerned, those are pretty basic tenets of Buddhism.

>>2305297
What the fuck is this book about? It attracts me somehow, but I can't put my finger on what it is about. Is it hard to read?

Nietzsche said that Buddhism was a form of nihilism and needed to be avoided. Why?

>>2305685
Because he was an insecure twat.

>>2305685
it seems to preach reduction of suffering via the removal of desires

>>2305685

>buddhism
>epistemological suicide
>listening to some starving curry smelling as paki

nope.exe

>>2305661
At its core, it's about self-reference. It has been interpreted many different ways by different disciplines. Philosophers tend to see it as an examination of the mechanism of "self" or "I am." Mathematicians see it as a deconstruction of the self-consistency of logical systems. Computer scientists have long held it as the principle "artificial intelligence bible."

If you need guidance or a gentler intro, MIT offered a class around the book as an honors high-school math / philosophy course, which they recorded under the creative commons. Here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jFhq3Rj6DI

Note it isn't one of those books you just "sit down and read." It's a book you study, contemplate, and absorb over the course of a year or more. You do not need any prior background, and the book isn't necessarily "hard", it's simply the that the material is thought provoking and takes time to absorb.

>>2305661 - The book is about a lot of things. Thought, consciousness, self referential constructs in mind, math, art and music. Much of the discussion flows towards artificial intelligence. Genuine AI, synthetic sentience, not the expert systems that are commonly called AI.
You don't read this book so much as you absorb it, and there are a lot of like new copies in the used bookstores.

>>2305730
Thank you, good sir. You were more helpful than I could imagine.

>>2305794
Also, holy shit, I look exactly like the guy doing the lecture, like a brother. Maybe a good sign.

>>2305646

Nirvana is generally seen as the end of suffering, not necessarily the end of existence.

Samsara is the constant rebirth, which may be from lifetime to lifetime but is also often interpreted as the rebirth from moment to moment, which is established by clining to the self as a separate entity with an enduring essence of some sort.

I did overstate my point somewhat, excuse me for that. I realise that the way you describe it now is indeed close to the viewpoint of certain forms of buddhism, I think especially Theravada, while I'm more aware of Mahayana teachings myself.

The point remains however, that there is not an extinguishing of material life, because in the end Buddhism doesn't really subscribe to material/spiritual duality as is common in Abrahamic religion.

>>2305685
>Nietzsche said that Buddhism was a form of nihilism and needed to be avoided. Why?
>>2305699
>it seems to preach reduction of suffering via the removal of desires

Yes, this is the way it seemed to Nietzsche. He was right in a way when you look at the more ascetic forms of Buddhism. On the other hand, there are forms of Buddhism who don't see the natural desires as inherently bad, but see the clinging to them as what creates suffering.

There are also forms of Buddhism (like Zen) which to me seem to overcome or at least work with nihilism. One confronts the emptiness, learns to accept it and lives within it. This graceful incorporation of nihilistic experience in a vital way of life seems to me one of the highest achievements of the human mind. It is /the/ way to overcome the nihilistic crisis and despair.

Also, if I remember correctly Nietzsche was quite fond of the Samurai, which where essentially Buddhist warriors of the Rinzai sect.

>>2306550

Also, there are some interesting parallels between Nietzsche's thought and some forms of Buddhism. Nietzsche's idea to the eternal recurrence quite resembles the cycle of rebirth and cyclical life. He states this as a quite horrible perspective for most.

How does one deal with this? One can't make everything perfect, after all. You could see yourself as trapped in this world. But then, there are ways of dealing with this. A Buddhist might say that you should stop clinging to your own thoughts and desires, that you should stop wishing for the world to be something other than it is. Nietzsche would say 'amor fati', one should embrace ones faith and the world as it is, one should accept it all. Are these ideas so different? I actually think they aren't. Both seem to make peace with existence exactly as it is.

And Nietzsche of course would call such a person, someone who would be capable of that—seeing life as it is without inherent meaning or substance, without individual existance and accepting it wholly—the Übermensch.

And a Buddhist would call such a person, who has realised the emptiness, constant chance and pain of life and accepts it as it comes, well, he would call him a Buddha.

>>2306568
>>2306550
>>2306544
You, sir, are quite knowledgeable

>>2305685

>Nietzsche said that Buddhism was a form of nihilism and needed to be avoided. Why?

Buddhism holds that the natural world, the world we live in day-to-day, is ultimately unreal and lacking in value; the true reality, and true value, are found in an "afterworld" (in their case, nothingness, nonexistence, nirvana, enlightenment, whatever). It has this feature in common with many views--Platonism, Christianity, and so on--it just differs over some of the details.

For Nietzsche, any worldview that devalues our concrete, natural existence in favor of any kind of afterworld is nihilistic, because Nietzsche doesn't believe in any kind of afterworld and regards such views as an attempt by the weak to escape or ignore the suffering inherent in life (by claiming it is unreal or unimportant or whatever). Such views devalue life, which is the true reality, by promoting the value of something beyond life, which Nietzsche thinks is a nihilistic delusion.

Buddhism is particularly nihilistic because the afterworld that supposedly transcends our earthly existence is literally nothingness. So, they hold nothingness to be more valuable than life; hence, nihilism.

>>2306762
Seng Ts'an

Verses on the Faith-Mind

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences .
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised .
Make the smallest distinction, however ,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart .
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything .
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind .
When the deep meaning of things is not understood
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail .


Buddhists, as far as I know, are not concerned with the value of things. Their only goal is the end of suffering and realising nothingness is just a byproduct of it.

>>2306762

Nirvana is no magical afterworld, it's the cessation of suffering. Also, nothingness in Buddhism is rather voidness or emptiness. As stated in the Pali canon:

>Ānanda: "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" The Buddha replied, "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ānanda, that the world is empty."

So, the world of phenomena has no intrinsic identity, no intrinsic value. This is the very same form of 'nihilism' that Nietzsche subscribes to. There is no fleeing from life to emptiness in Buddhism, it's rather the realization that everything is empty as it is.

Also, Nietzsche doesn't believe our world to be 'concrete'. He regards it as a flux of phenomena, Nietzsche was no materialist in the ordinary sense of the word. He thought, much like the Buddhists, more in terms of forces than of stuff. He indeed thinks that putting all the value in the afterlife is nihilistic, but the Buddhists do no such thing. Nietzsche however thought they did, but that is because he had a rather shallow knowledge of their philosophy I'm afraid. I love the man's work dearly, but on some subjects he was very misinformed.

The claim that Buddhist deny suffering from some kind of cowardice is rather unfair, since they 'deny' happiness or joy in the same way: Not actually denying it, but seeing it for what it is: Mere fleeting phenomena.

I do think you capture the way Nietzsche saw it very well it that post, only I think that you must be misinformed in some way about Buddhist philosophy if you agree with him on this.

>>2306799

Glorious poem. It saddens me to see that there are no schools in the West (or anywhere?) that teach according to the ways of the early Ch'an masters.

i'm serious when i say this, having read so so much about Buddhism (east asian history major) that it is a religion...

if you wanna get down right philosophical, like how to serve yourself and mankind, as opposed to wondering about the afterlife and restraint as a means to satisfying a spiritual cause, read Confucius...i'm very serious, read Confucius

tldr - READ CONFUCIUS AND MENCIUS

>>2306916
>>2306916
>>2306916

me again, suggested reading in Confucianism time
The Analects
Mencius
Confucian Moral Self-Cultivation by P.J. Ivanhoe
Confucianism and Moral Rights by Wm. Theodore de Bary
Lives of Confucius by Thomas Wilson

>>2306927
>The Analects
>Analects
>Anal

>>2306803
>I do think you capture the way Nietzsche saw it very well it that post.

He didn't at all.
Nietzsche didn't say that Buddhism was another attempt to escape suffering into the refuge of an "afterworld".

>Buddhism is a hundred times more realistic than Christianity: posing problems objectively and coolly is part of its inheritance . . . Buddhism is the only genuinely positivistic religion in history. This applies even to its theory of knowledge (a strict phenomenalism) : it no longer says "struggle against sin" but, duly respectful of reality, "struggle against suffering."
He then goes on to say that Buddhism follows from two physiological ailments, "excessive sensitivity" and "overspiritualization", and declares: "These physiological conditions have led to a depression, and the Buddha proceeds against it with hygienic measures."

He says that Buddhism is nihilistic; not nihilistic because it devalues reality by placing some transcendental paradise above it, but because it's predicated upon a sick, tired and weary physiology that experiences reality as suffering, and tabulates its values according to the treatment of suffering. Nietzsche describes himself as an advocate as suffering, saying that one must accept suffering as a necessity, as Buddhists do, but also embrace it as useful and healthy.

>>2306947

Ah, you're right of course. It wasn't a case of an afterworld, but it was one of 'escaping into nothingness' in the sense of taming the highs and lows and in a sense damage control.

I should've been more critical where I tried to be to pleasant.

Would you agree that probably the main difference between Buddhism and Nietzsche in the case of suffering is that Buddhists merely accept it (albeit wholly), whereas Nietzsche tries to passionately love it?

The problem with the latter, I find, is that it depends on emotions and passions and is relatively unstable. I've more than once fried to incorporate the creed of Amor Fati into my life, but found it a lot more difficult than mere acceptance, and a lot more prone to frustration.

>>2307007
>Would you agree that probably the main difference between Buddhism and Nietzsche in the case of suffering is that Buddhists merely accept it (albeit wholly), whereas Nietzsche tries to passionately love it?

More that Buddhists see it the defining problem of existence and Nietzsche necessary means.

>2012
>not putting the name of the slut in the filename of the pic.

ISH

>>2307033
>>2307007
>>2306947

>More that Buddhists see it the defining problem of existence and Nietzsche necessary means.

Is it wrong of me to think one does not contradict the other? I think existence requires "problem" (suffering) and I fucking love existence, but I'm also very cool about not existing, for that is to be "complete" if you take this word as "not incomplete". To exist is to be incomplete, to need, to desire and therefore to suffer.

Am I off?

>>2307033
But what, then, do you see as Nietzsche's goal? This is something I've been questioning for almost a decade.

>>2307138
Seems pleasant enough, loving life and not despairing the absence of it.

>what books do you guys recommend?
any translation from Keith Dowman

the problem of existence is not very well handed in the ultimate by philosophy, in India and tibet the intellectual tool to try to grab this always had been the so called maha-madyamaka, or the highest middle-way, concisely expressed by Nagarjuna in the 4 limits:

Neither from itself nor from another,
Nor from both,
Nor without a cause,
Does anything whatever, anywhere arise

this is deep mysticism, so words always will be just a pale shadow of what the knowledge holders are pointing to, and if you want to look at a very practical tradition very impregnated about this non-duality, look at dzogchen.

This exists also in other mystical traditions, yet not as much as apparent as in maha-madyamakha or dzogchen. Some of this traditions are the mystic side of catholicism(cloud of unknow, Theresa of Avila, St. john of the cross, Meister Eckhart, Frater Keiting, etc)

Also in taoism(not in folk taoism), Advaita Vedanta, Gnosticism, Islamic Sufism, etc.

But do not believe me, do your own research and/or practice.

>>2307544

Any books you suggest on dzogchen? I've looked into it before but it all seems rather opaque. This probably has to do with the whole esoteric tantra vibe of it all, but I'm curious.

Also, as you seem to be pretty well versed on the subject, do you have any actual experience practicing one of these paths?

>>2309062

Also, does anyone know if there is something as practised taoism in the West, apart from uninteresting folk religion rituals by Chinese immigrants?

So, as a tl;dr, what are the best books on buddhism, hinduism and taoism?

>>2295396
I've spent ten minutes trying to decide if I'd rather bang that girl or be as awesome as that guy.

The few "Buddhists" I've known have been thin-skinned, unable to take any criticism and unwilling to discuss their beliefs for fear of it. Why is this?

>>2310083
Because your friends (Probably, not saying I know them, really) are spoiled kids that have "realized" that their white people problems are what Buddha called the great suffering.
It's not like you are friends with a monk or someone who has actually took time and read a book and spent time thinking/meditating on it.

tl;dr Your friends that are trendy and hipster as fuck aint buddhists, son.

>>2310120
>friends

Yeah... No. I find Fundamentalist Christians less condescending.

>>2310160
Whatever, bro. My point remains, I highly doubt that they are truly buddhists and that they call themselves that because it sounds cool for them.

>>2310341
One said something very similar to that actually.

>>2310355
One of the so called buddhists told you that s/he picked the religion because it sounded cool?

Probably got that one wrong, but, wat

>>2310548
No, they said that others called themselves it for that reason and she was a "real" buddhist.

>>2310083
why do you give a fuck?

>>2310557
Yet she wouldn't defend her belief or way of life.

My point stands up there like a motherfucker. The one that truly believes in something not only can defend his shit, he is willing to. Nigga you see muslims defending their religion out there.

>>2312071

Buddhists usually aren't the evangelizing or defensive type in general, though. They will probably happily talk about it if you are genuinely interested, but they're often less interested in arguing aggressively than Abrahamic folk.

So, besides Alan Watts (great guy) what are some writers that write about buddhism, tao, hinduism and theology in general with humour and shit?

WHAT THE FUCK HER LEGS

>>2312642
check out poets ikkyu and basho.

you might also like krishnamurti.

>>2314773

Relevant glorious Ikkyu poetry:

http://thegreenleaf.co.uk/hp/Ikkyu/00haiku.htm

bump

Seriously, who is this woman, and how does she have such stupidly long legs. Anything I can find about her is all in moonspeak.