/lit/ - Literature

>>23059647
Moderns (everyone desu) like to project their gayness onto everyone if they can get away with it. Do with this what you want.

>>23059652
>>23059647
He's not gay. The myth comes from a play written hundreds of years after Homer, and it was not a prevalent belief anywhere except some parts of Ionia that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers even at the height of the misconception. One should not make conclusions about a source material from fan fiction.
It was literally an ancient-Hollywood psyop.

>>23059652
>Moderns
William Shakespeare is a "modern?"
>Thersites: Prithee, be silent, boy; I profit not by thy talk: thou art thought to be Achilles' male varlet.
>Patroclus: Male varlet, you rogue! what's that?
>Thersites: Why, his masculine whore.

>I shall speak first about Homer, whom we rank among the oldest and wisest of the poets. He mentions Patroklos and Achilles in many places, but he keeps their erotic love hidden and the proper name of their friendship, thinking that the exceptional extent of their affection made things clear to the educated members of his audience.
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 142-3
>Aeschylus talks nonsense in claiming that Achilles was in love with Patroclus (rather than the other way around), for Achilles was more beautiful than not only Patroclus but all the other heroes as well; and besides, he was unbearded, and thirdly, far younger than Patroclus, as Homer says. Well, anyhow, though the gods really hold in very high esteem that virtue which concerns love, they wonder, admire, band confer benefits even more when the beloved has affection for the lover than when the lover has it for the beloved.
Plato, Symposium 179e-180b
>And you did not respect the chaste consecration of the thighs, oh ungrateful that you were for those countless kisses!
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 135
>I honored the intimacy of your thighs by bewailing you
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 136
>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."
Lucian, Amores 54
>That Achilles loved Antilochus you must have discovered in Homer, seeing Antilochus to be the youngest man in the Greek host and considering he half-talent of gold that was given him after the contest. And it is he who brings word to Achilles that Patroclus has fallen, for Menelaus cleverly devised this as a consolation to accompany the announcement, since Achilles' eyes were thus diverted to his loved one; and Antilochus laments in grief for his friend and restrains his hands lest he take his own life, while Achilles no doubt rejoices at the touch of the youth's hand and at the tears he sheds.
Philostratus, Imagines 2.7
>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.
Aelian, Varia Historia 12.7
>Again by your delicious lips I supplicate you. . . . We’ll be to one another like Achilles and his friend.
Theocritus, Idyll 29

>>23059717
How fucked in the brain do you have to be to refer to Aeschylus as "ancient Hollywood"

Anyway OP there is no explicit homosexuality in the Iliad, but here is an interesting essay that argues that Achilles and Patroclus are textually meant to be lovers. I don't know whether or not I ultimately agree with it, but it has some thought-provoking points (pic related)

https://annas-archive.org/md5/86d43a5e0b47462b890ae3386f48fdd4

>>23059647
Because they can't understand manly honest friendship

>>23059647
it's an old jewish joke to make the ancients gay. i don't expect you to understand.

>>23060299
You think Aeschylus the war hero couldn't understand it?

>>23060235
Lmao, all thr brainlets owned in one post

>>23060311
Did Aeschylus write about Achilles?

>>23060328
Yes, see >>23060235
And also
>>Love affairs were such an open and everyday matter that the great poet Aeschylus, and Sophocles too, put sexual themes on the stage in their tragedies, Aeschylus showing Achilles’ love for Patroclus.
Athenaeus 13.601

>>23060225
Yes, he lived over 2000 years after the Iliad was composed.

>>23059647
>Everyone in college seems to be saying Achilles is gay

>>23060332
Just for arguments sake, while the thigh fucking ritual from Crete was a Dorian practice and existed in pederastic mentoring in Crete mostly - the Iliad shares much of its story with the Mahabharata and is an old bronze age story. If Homer did not explicitly state it and if the tale is older than the Greek dark ages it starts to be a stretch tagt Aeschylus, who was born hundreds of years after Homer, knew what Homer intended.

>>23060365
I agree that the Classical Greeks are to a large degree separated from Homer and his culture and cannot therefore be relied upon to give a completely accurate reading of his intentions (although how much more helpless must us moderns be by comparison?), but I was responding specifically to anon's contention that such an interpretation of their relationship must be the result of an inability to understand masculine friendship.

>>23060332
>Plato said
You are missing the fact that Plato was always wrong

>>23059647
he fought with his dick out, so make a guess

>>23060384
>this dude once said this thing (he most likely didnt but whatever)
So?

>>23060428
Well the implication being that Aeschylus, the manliest of all the ancient playwrights (at least by Aristophanes' estimation) as well two-time war hero who fought alongside his brothers (one of whom died in combat) "didn't understand manly honest friendship".
>(he most likely didnt but whatever)
Deny reality to suit your feelings.

>>23060436
>Well the implication being that Aeschylus, the manliest of all the ancient playwrights (at least by Aristophanes' estimation)
lol
>as well two-time war hero who fought alongside his brothers (one of whom died in combat) "didn't understand manly honest friendship".
Yeah, why not?
>Deny reality to suit your feelings.
I looked it up
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2013.01.0003%3Abook%3D13%3Achapter%3D61
Fake quote like all the others

you're all wrong
it's literally just this phenomenon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBaSY00OtqY

>>23060465
>I looked it up
>Fake quote like all the others
The reason you cannot find it on Perseus is because there are two numbering systems for the Deipnosophistae. Here is the reference in the system that Perseus uses:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Ath.+13.75&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2013.01.0003

>>23060523
Thank you but:
>And, in fact, there was such emulation about composing poems of this sort, and so far was any one from thinking lightly of the amatory poets, that Aeschylus, who was a very great poet, and Sophocles, too, introduced the subject of the loves of men on the stage in their tragedies: the one describing the love of Achilles for Patroclus, and the other, in his Niobe, the mutual love of her sons.
See you just posted a biased translation. Or I should say you are biased in the choice of your translation.
Where in this passage do you read anything sexual? Meanwhile the same chapter reads
>He says also that he was in a moderate degree in love with Megalostrate, who was a poetess, and who was able to allure lovers to her by the charms of her conversation.
Now this actually implies an erotic attraction.
I am not a classicist let alone a philologist of ancient Greek, but whenever I look up these passages I find a different translation that isnt sexual whatsoever. Meanwhile everything I ever read in ancient Greek literature was about admiring women and men loving women.
You are the one who denies reality to suit your feelings.

>>23060235
Do you think Patroclus was put off by Achilles's hairy chest?

>>23059647
In Homer Achilles doesn't have a sexual relationship with Patroclos, in fact Homer says they slept on opposite sides of their tent. Perhaps it was an interpretation in Homer's time but he clearly avoided any implication of it. However, that was the common interpretation in later times, 5th century BC onwwards. But taking the 5th century interpretations of Homer as definitive would be silly.

>>23060774
The translation on Perseus is from 1854, so we can expect some level of circumspection. But did you miss its direct use of Greek words for pederasty? Furthermore, he introduces the topic as being about ‘amatory poems’, which unambiguously means love poetry.
>Meanwhile everything I ever read in ancient Greek literature was about admiring women and men loving women.
Even pic related? Which is from an 1800s translation.

>>23059652
this is in response to the very real phenomenon of historians insisting, through tears and gritted teeth, that gay people were straight despite obvious evidence.
>"tongue fucking each other's mouths is just how close friends used to say hi to each other! It's not gay, okay?"

>>23060820
It goes the other way too, some historians interpret any male bonding as homoerotic.

>"David loved Jonathan like a brother"
>That means they were fucking each other in the ass!

>>23060797
What, pederasty is a form of poetry? And a mothers love for her son is also pederasty?

>Even pic related?
Sounds pretty gay but then again what happened to Socrates? Oh yeah they made him drink poison for "corrupting the youth", make of it what you will.

>Which is from an 1800s translation
This gayreeks meme goes back at least into the Renaissance, just the stupid fantasies of pedos and bored aristocrats who were mad at the church.

>>23060474
this is literally every women and faggot professor in classics departments

>>23060820
Sappho also killed herself because a male lover rejected her.

>>23060884
What do you make of the fact that Aeschylus is quoted in numerous sources as having Achilles refer to his “intercourse of the thighs” with Patroclus in his play the Myrmidons, and that a homosexual interpretation of Achilles and Patroclus is attributed to him by Plato and Athenaeus, and I believe also by Plutarch. You will probably deny that Plato was referring to pederasty in the Symposium, despite his argument that Achilles must have been the pederastic object of attraction because of his beardlessness, youth, and beauty, but then you also assert that Socrates was executed for homosexuality (no, for impiety) and that his pupil wrote about the homoerotic behaviour that caused him to be executed. Your mental gymnastics are a sight to behold.

>>23060913
There is literally no good evidence that Sappho was a lesbian. The origin of that view is the fact that some poems attributed to her are written from a man's perspective addressing his fiance. That's literally it, there is actually no homoeroticism in Sappho's poems.

>>23060936
>are written from a man's perspective addressing his fiance
No, that’s your headcanon. Worth noting that “sapphic” or “sapphick” has been a term denoting lesbianism in the English language for centuries

>>23060963
Just like how people were saying Minoans were all feminists. It's because of lack of evidence. All the evidence points to sappho being straight or maybe bi. What kind of lesbian kills herself because a man won't sleep with her?

>>23060918
>that a homosexual interpretation of Achilles and Patroclus is attributed to him
Oh thats it? Well if some dude said so it must be true. Lets just ignore that the main point of drama is a fight over a slave girl between Achilles and Agamemnon, with Achilles being so outraged that one of his dozens of rape toys got taken that he refused to fight. A strange obsession with women for a man who apparently just loved to be fucked by an older man, you fucking idiot.
>You will probably deny that Plato was referring to pederasty in the Symposium
This isnt about Plato its about Greek society.
>no, for impiety
Yeah I guess being a gross groomer isnt very pious.
>and that his pupil wrote about the homoerotic behaviour that caused him to be executed
Yeah, why not? Writing about it isnt the same as doing it, dont need a Roman jurist to figure that out.
>Your mental gymnastics are a sight to behold.
Do you not realise how disgusted a normal person is by the idea of molesting a teen boy? You are absolutely deluded if you think there ever was a civilized society where this was acceptable behaviour.

>>23060963
>it's been like, er, centuries or something
Got a source for that?

>>23060936
There are even poems in which the female beloved addresses Sappho by name
>Honestly, I wish I were dead.
>Weeping many tears, she left me and said,
>“Alas, how terribly we suffer, Sappho.
>I really leave you against my will.”
>And I answered: “Farewell, go and remember me.
>You know how we cared for you.
>If not, I would remind you
>...of our wonderful times.
>For by my side you put on
>many wreaths of roses
>and garlands of flowers
>around your soft neck.
>And with precious and royal perfume
>you anointed yourself.
>On soft beds you satisfied your passion.
>And there was no dance,
>no holy place
>from which we were absent.”

You can read all the poems and fragments here, there are not many:
https://www.uh.edu/~cldue/texts/sappho.html
>>23060970
Bisexuality is certainly not out of the question, Sappho was married to a man. Socrates was married to a woman, and is recorded by Xenophon as being attracted to both women and boys (whereas Plato only describes his affections for youths). Bisexuality should be presumed in the case of antiquity. Anyway, regarding the story of Sappho’s suicide
>A tradition going back at least to Menander (Fr. 258 K) suggested that Sappho killed herself by jumping off the Leucadian cliffs due to her unrequited love of Phaon, a ferryman. This story is related to two myths about the goddess Aphrodite. In one, Aphrodite rewarded the elderly ferryman Phaon with youth and good looks as a reward for taking her in his ferry without asking for payment; in the other, Aphrodite was cured of her grief at the death of her lover Adonis by throwing herself off the Leucadian cliffs on the advice of Apollo.[45] The story of Sappho's leap is regarded as ahistorical by modern scholars, perhaps invented by the comic poets or originating from a misreading of a first-person reference in a non-biographical poem.[46]
The fact that the man she supposedly killed herself for is a literal mythological character should be a hint about the provenance of the story

>>23060982
By modern standards almost everyone in antiquity was a pedo (Greek men aged thirty typically married Greek girls aged 13) and pederasty was common in many cultures, not just among the Greeks. There are tribes where boys are expected to perform oral sex on men in order to become masculine. You must lack imagination if you can’t imagine ancient societies having very different morals to us. The ancient Greeks practiced slavery, infanticide, and public torture. I also like how you refer to Plutarch and Lucian as just “some dude”. You have no real interest in or respect for the ancients. Stop posting.

>>23060994
>There are tribes where boys are expected to perform oral sex on men in order to become masculine.
Yeah, nigger tribes in the jungle living in mutt huts
>pederasty was common in many cultures, not just among the Greeks
No it wasnt. Not among the Romans, not among the Samurai, not among the Turks. You are just so disconnected from how a normal person thinks and feels that you cant understand that.
>You must lack imagination if you can’t imagine ancient societies having very different morals to us.
Lets just ignore that all civilizations share basic principles which are universal (dont murder, dont steal, dont rape, respect your elders, give the sky man his 10% cut, dont be a faggot etc.) how do you explain away that all of modern psychology and psychiatry acknowledges that sexually abusing a child or a teen is one of the most damaging thing you can do to them? The most damaging thing if it involves penetration. I guess that just wasnt an issue back then. In Greece having some older man fuck your thigs was just totally normal, thats how normal people behave.
You are delusional.
>You have no real interest in or respect for the ancients.
Neither do you, you are just a pseud who uses the ancients to justify his perversion. All too common unfortunately.
And saying "some dude" was referring to it being an interpretation, not the person himself. You can interpret it all you want doesnt change whats written down.
I have read the Iliad and there is nothing gay in there, so I dont give a shit what some dude said because I saw it with my own eyes.
Stop posting

>>23060235
>>23060332
Nice

>>23060365
If Homer is just retelling an ancient hand-me-down Aryan tale, then does it matter what Homer intended? There were supposedly two gay generals in the Mahabharata. I don't know what it shares with the Iliad or not, but if the Greeks and Romans cherished and studied and repeated the Iliad for a thousand years referencing how gay these two were and not once saying, "These dudes were only into pussy," nor even asking "Maybe they weren't lovers?" I think it's safe to accept that they were canonically gay.

>>23061428
Repeating lies many times does not in fact make your fragmentary retcon from isolated sources canonical.

>>23059647
The issue is that there are multiple historical levels of interpretation happening at once.
The classical Athenians who loved the Iliad certainly liked boy molesting and frequently read that in to Achilles. Whether homer, or whoever wrote the Iliad let's not get in to it, thought Achilles was gay is less clear. If we are to believe that homer, who wrote the Iliad in an earlier period than the boy molesting fruits of classical Athens and was himself writing about what was considered ancient history even by that point, wanted us to think Achilles was gay is less clear. If he thought so he certainly didn't go out of his way to make is think so. The bronze age Greek who might have existed that the literary figure is based on? Who knows. All we have is the character he inspired. But that character has been continuously reinterpreted by societies that have had wildly different ideas about male sexuality.
Achilles never engages in any homosexual acts in the Iliad. His relationship with patrocles is very close, and they clearly love each other. To the classical Athenians that meant they fucked. But they didn't write it did they? Whatever homer thought about chille's sexuality he didn't feel the need to make it explicit in the Iliad.

>>23061049
>Lets just ignore that all civilizations share basic principles which are universal (dont murder, dont steal, dont rape, respect your elders, give the sky man his 10% cut, dont be a faggot etc.) how do you explain away that all of modern psychology and psychiatry acknowledges that sexually abusing a child or a teen is one of the most damaging thing you can do to them? The most damaging thing if it involves penetration. I guess that just wasnt an issue back then. In Greece having some older man fuck your thigs was just totally normal, thats how normal people behave.
>You are delusional.
All of modern psychology also says that corporal punishment is extremely damaging to a child. Didn’t stop them from doing it. Also I don’t care what your retarded feels tell you, the primary source evidence is overwhelming. You don’t deserve to exist, your dishonesty is repulsive

>>23060235
I can't help but notice how none of these are by Homer.

In 1,000 years people will be making similar quotes about how Jesus was a transwoman.

>>23061801
>story is literally about how Achilles is the angriest man to ever live because his female war prize was stolen from him
>ideological retards across 3,000 years still try to coopt his story into faggotry
It really, genuinely, and unironically makes you think. The author was dead before he was even born, but he was born none the less, and only there did he make art, while in death only death is begot.

>>23060235
These quotes are hundreds of years after homer...

>>23062879
The part that gets me is people saying "well he was being subtle he needed to keep it hidden" and then pointing to the later Greeks and Romans as though their attitudes prove it. If homer had had their attitude why the fuck would he need to keep Achilles in the closet?

Achilles wasn't gay or even involved in some relationship with Patroclus i.e. pederasty try and literally any fucker who is interested in the period would know this.
You already mentioned the lack of any content alluding to it in the Iliad, and that's literally the end of it. This "Achilles was gay" comes from a play written 3/400 years after the writing of the Iliad and 15/1700 years after the events in the poem.
Pederasty is usually how the relationship was displayed, and this can be stricken off immediately for two reasons:
1) Pederasty has literally no documentation during either Bronze Age or Archaic Greece, and when it does appear in Classical Greece it's confirmed in a few places and also has great backlash against it in a lot of cases.
2) Achilles is always displayed as the older and dominant in this relationship, despite him being much younger than Patroclus. In short, not only does this shit have no basis in historical fact, it also isn't even consistent with the practice.

The whole thing is like using Lear for a history of England, or Hamlet as Danish history. Retards will believe it and push it, and expose their total lack of knowledge in doing so. The rest are all tumblr and reddit faggots who read Song of Achilles and thinks it's real. A massive pushing factor behind this "theory" is from women, and this is because women have a massive problem in seeing comradery. They can't understand a very close male bond without thinking they're fucking.

>>23063223
>Pederasty has literally no documentation during either Bronze Age or Archaic Greece
Yes, it does. Pederasty is attested in the Archaic era in archaeological evidence from Doria and in poems by Theognis, Ibycus, Anacreon, etc.

Also Greek myths are mutable. Notice how your retards always seethe about the homosexual element and never about Achilles being shot in his ankle or the Trojan horse

>>23063259
>Achilles being shot in his ankle
Nice, I actually read an article about that the other day. The very fact that we say "Achilles's heel" instead of ankle should be telling but I think most people don't even think about that.

>>23063259
Literally everyone you named are people living hundreds of years after the Iliad was written, you fucking retard.
>Also Greek myths are mutable
This is so fucking stupid, myths are mutable by the people who are telling them and passing them down, not people detached by hundreds of years writing a play. If someone like Sophocles wrote a play in which Hector was actually married to Helen secretly, it doesn't make it part of the myth you dope.
>Notice how your retards always seethe about the homosexual element and never about Achilles being shot in his ankle or the Trojan horse
>Why do you focus on something that is much more prominant in discussion and relevant to the poems than other things!!!??
God, I wonder why that is.

>>23063259
>never about Achilles being shot in his ankle or the Trojan horse
The horse is mentioned in the odyssey, which is generally attributed to the same author, so while it doesn't make an appearance in the Iliad it being a part of the author's intention is something people simply assume, rightly or not.
But this isn't about people denying that there are multiple versions of things. It takes place in a specific context regarding the social acceptability of homosexuality and you are being disingenuous if you are trying to suggest that the "homer didn't write gay achilles" crowd are the people are the ones with an axe to grind. How Achilles died has no relation to modern issues, which is why there is no discourse surrounding it. Achilles having gay sex does have relevance to contemporary issues, so the discourse revolves around that.
It is unfortunately the world we live in but 90% of people are only interested in works of ancient literature insofar as they can be used to buttress their ideology.

>>23063289
Much of our understanding of what the Greek myths "are" comes from Sophocles and Aeschylus you retarded freak.

>>23063298
>Literally no mention of a homosexual relationship between Achilles or Patroclus in the Iliad with a scene depicting them sleeping on opposite ends of a tent with two women
>No mention in the Odyssey
>No mention in any other scraps we have of the rest of the heroic cycle
>Suddenly popping up in a time when pederasty was popular in Athens exclusively in plays or mentions in Plato.
>We shouldn't ever question this for some reason or mention that Xenophon thought it was complete bullshit either
Based retard, will we also take everything they depicted Thebes as being as fact as well then?

>>23063307
Idiot? I didn't say Achilles and Patroclus were gay in the Iliad you retarded freak. Also Xenophon was a coping retard who thought that the Ganymede myth was also non-homosexual -- which is, now that I think about it, mentioned by Homer in the Iliad.

>>23060474
/thread

Ancient fujos did this to Achilles

>>23063311
*fudanshi

>>23063310
>Idiot? I didn't say Achilles and Patroclus were gay in the Iliad you retarded freak
What the fuck do you think the thread is about, you spastic? Why else would you chime in with a total non answer?
>Also Xenophon was a coping retard
Literally no more than any other wirter at the time.

>>23063311
People who call Aeschylus a fujo need to be immolated. You can't even imagine how much more strong and virile and masculine the Greeks of his time were compared to the human detritus that walks the streets today. You are a lower breed of life. You will never match that level of excellence and vitality. You will never experience those adventures, that ripeness of mind. Attic beaches unsullied by pollution, blue radiant skies, libations poured out onto the sand, staining it purple, kisses exchanged between muscular warriors. You think because he wrote Achilles and Patroclus as homosexual that he is some sort of "leftist degenerate Hollywood liberal". When you die and go to Hades he will fucking crush your skull and rape you and you will never ever ever get relief from it. Your untrained, pathetic, anaemic body will be shattered into a trillion pieces. And you will have deserved it.

>>23059647
Gay af, pure cope to say otherwise. The greatest warrior and one of the central mythological figures in western literature is a booty pirate or Fanny Bandit. Simple as

>>23063320
When I die I will go to paradise with Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) while this asschylus guy will burn in gehenna for having buttsex

>>23063320
This is prime material for ancient Navy Seal copypasta.

>>23063320
>You can't even imagine how much more strong and virile and masculine the Greeks of his time were
Anon you are gay. You like Aeschylus because you are gay, and fantasize about gay sex with him. You are incapable of appreciating or criticizing Aeschylus for any of his qualities other than the gayness you project onto him (which is ultimately your own). The only thing that gay people like you can love are strong virile gay genitals that they desire to fellate, and everything else they hate - including yourself, as we see in your supressed self-hatred and denial of your own homosexuality.

Why are gays like this?

>>23063387
Aeschylus would execute you for your denigration of masculine love. You are a feminised slave. Also homosexuality is not even present in most of Aeschylus' writings, so your accusation makes no sense. What makes him such an accomplished artist is the vitality and visceral poetry of his playwriting, the way he can plunge you into a shipwreck (where all the beams are bending and breaking, woodchips flying, voices clamoring, water pooling at your sandalled ankles) or the spear-saturated tumult of a battlefield with just a few adroitly placed words -- as well as for the subtle humanism of his stories. In this respect he is similar to Homer. But you will never appreciate him, or anything in life. Your mind is poisoned. You see everything through muddy filters. You are incapable with engaging with ancient texts on their own terms. You demand that they prostate themselves before you and acquiesce to your computer-generated Hebrew prejudices. But the classical world has too much dignity to do that. It will not bow and prostrate before you. Try to tame the mighty lion and it will crush your flesh between its jaws, wet gore snapping smacking.

>>23060235
There is zero faggotry in the Iliad and the Odyssey. That is an undeniable fact. Beyond that anyone is free to express his or her opinion.

https://library.gayhomeland.org/0018/EN/EN_Overhauling_Straight.htm

>>23060235

>>23063427
>There is zero faggotry in the Iliad and the Odyssey
"Ganymedes that was born the fairest of mortal men; wherefore the gods caught him up on high to be cupbearer to Zeus by reason of his beauty"
Homer, Iliad 20.230

>>23059647
It’s all Libtard historical revisionism to fit their worldview. In Classical civilization it was about who was in the dominant, who was doing the penetrating. If you were doing the fucking people didn’t care. If you were being fucked it was a abhorrent attack on your honor and dignity and the greatest possible shame you could inflict. since that was something you only did you slaves, and never your fellow citizen. It was not some mutualistic relationship like in modern day, you would have been killed for something like that back then.

>>23063437
>Gods are humans
When will this silly viewpoint end?

>>23063437
>so jewed he associates cupbearing with buttfucking
There is zero faggotry in the Iliad and the Odyssey

>>23063478
>. If you were being fucked it was a abhorrent attack on your honor and dignity and the greatest possible shame you could inflict. since that was something you only did you slaves, and never your fellow citizen.
Not if you were a boy

>>23063485
>>23063487
>The king of all the Gods once burned with love for Ganymede of Phrygia. He found a shape more pleasing even than his own.
Ovid, Metamorphoses 10
>Boy-love is a delight, since even the son of Cronus, king of the gods, once came to love Ganymede, and seizing him, brought him up to Olympus and made him eternal in the lovely flower of boyhood.
Theognis 1345-8
>Sophocles in Women of Colchis said of Ganymede that he "lit the fire of tyrant Zeus with his thighs"
Athenaeus 13.602
>. . . the fountain of that stream which Zeus, when he was in love with Ganymede, called “desire” flows copiously upon the lover
Plato, Phaedrus 255c
>>And we are unanimous in accusing the Cretans of fabricating the story of Ganymede: because they believed that their laws had come from Zeus, they have also attached this story to the god, thinking that they could reap the fruit of this pleasure and say they were following the god's example.
Plato, Laws 636
>Those gods who did not refrain from the abuse of males as disgraceful, but who practised even this as seemly. For instance, Jupiter himself was in love with Ganymede: Poseidon with Pelops; Apollo with Cinyras, Zacyinthus, Hyacinthus, Phorbas, Hylas, Admetus, Cyparissus, Amyclas, Troilus, Branchus the Tymnæan, Parus the Potnian, Orpheus; Dionysus with Laonis, Ampelus, Hymenæus, Hermaphrodites, Achilles; Asclepius with Hippolytus, and Hephæstus with Peleus; Pan with Daphnis; Hermes with Perseus, Chrysas, Theseus, Odrysus; Hercules with Abderus, Dryops, Jocastus, Philoctetes, Hylas, Polyphemus, Hæmon, Chonus, Eurystheus.
Pseudo-Clement, The Clementine Homilies, Homily V

>>23063501
Wrong pic, meant to attach this.

>>23063501
>Ovid
>Theognis
>Athenaeus
>Plato
>Pseudo-Clement
Odd that you left Homer out considering that is the topic of discussion
There is zero faggotry in the Iliad and the Odyssey

>>23063521
>left Homer out
because I already quoted him.

>>23063501
Gods aren’t humans. They can’t be gay with something they literally aren’t.

>Zeus_küsst_Ganymed_(Böttner).jpg

>>23063575
Yeah and I suppose Zeus never fucked any mortal women either, illiterate retard

>>23063582
:3

>>23063584
When you jizz inside your sock you aren’t gay or straight for doing so.

>>23063489
No, it was the death penalty to fuck a free born boy in Athens. In Crete they had intracural sex (slathering the thigh in olive oil) but aside from that it was not encouraged to penetrate boys butts. You couldn't even vote or speak in forum in Athens if you were penetrated

>:3
Of course the pedo faggot spammer is a German Kohlfag, opinions discarded

Nobody was gay before the gay identity was invented in 20th century.

>>23063596
>No, it was the death penalty to fuck a free born boy in Athens
No, there wasn’t. ESL.
>You couldn't even vote or speak in forum in Athens if you were penetrated
Misreading of Against Timarchus. Aeschines (whom I quoted earlier) literally spells this out, saying that he is accusing Timarchus of prostituting himself, and that there is nothing disgraceful about mere homosexuality, making reference to Solon’s laws, Achilles and Patroclus, Harmodius and Aristogeiton, etc. I hate having to correct your lies in every fucking thread and you people never ever ever change

>>23063526
>"Ganymedes that was born the fairest of mortal men; wherefore the gods caught him up on high to be cupbearer to Zeus by reason of his beauty"
>Homer, Iliad 20.230
You quoted a translation, not Homer, and one that shows no instance of faggotry. Being so beautiful one is selected to enter the pantheon as a cupbearer has nothing to do with buttfucking, cocksucking or thigh pumping. You want it to out of your own twisted desires. Even the translation has no inherent faggotry. You have to rely on other authors hundreds of years after Homer to make it seem so.
How about quoting the actual text?
>Τρωὸς δ᾽ αὖ τρεῖς παῖδες ἀμύμονες ἐξεγένοντο
Ἶλός τ᾽ Ἀσσάρακός τε καὶ ἀντίθεος Γανυμήδης,
ὃς δὴ κάλλιστος γένετο θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων:
τὸν καὶ ἀνηρείψαντο θεοὶ Διὶ οἰνοχοεύειν
κάλλεος εἵνεκα οἷο ἵν᾽ ἀθανάτοισι μετείη.
You can't read Greek but the above says nothing about sex. It says Gods snatched him up to pour out wine for Zeus on account of his beauty so that he might be among the undying. Nothing is written or implied about the faggotry you so desperately crave.
You are projecting your own desires for ass sex into Homer, much like faggots project their seed into unsuspecting young children. Feel free to refute this with quotes in Greek from Homer. Protip: you can't

>>23063604
Yes nothing faggoty about abducting a young male and preserving his youth on account of his beauty. Plato even says that the Greeks thought the myth was invented by pederasts to justify their desires.

>>23060436
Aristophanes was a clown and anyone involves in theater is always a kianidos of some kind.

>>23063601
The laws are clear, they understood butt fucking kids ruined their potential to be good citizens, you weren't even allowed to hold kids after dark at school because the assumption was you were diddling them. Butt fucking a slave was fine though.

>>23063613
>The laws are clear, they understood butt fucking kids ruined their potential to be good citizens

>>23063605
>plato
>hundreds of years after Homer
Prove that Homer intended Ganymede to be involved in fag sex with Zeus using quotes from Homer.
>nothing faggoty about abducting a young male and preserving his youth on account of his beauty
Correct. Only a faggot is so blinded by lust they cannot see and appreciate beauty without devolving to base thoughts of buttfucking.
Prove Homer's intentions with Homer (you can't)
You can't even read Greek and rely on translations to justify your longings for child rape.

>>23059647
Jews.

>>23063619
Why haven't you abducted your own Hebe and Ganymede then? Purely for aesthetic reasons... nothing fishy about it.

>>23063624
I'm not a God
Still waiting for those quotes from Homer. Oh wait - they don't exist.
Admit you cannot and never have read Homer in Greek.

>>23063626
So you would abduct beautiful children if you were a God?

>>23063618
While intracural sex was a thing, butt fucking was a punishment reserved for kinaidos and being penetrated was not favorable. They even had some awesome slurs for people who were penetrated like Kinaidos or gaping ass.

>>23060963
And an old french word for faggot (bougre) came from their word for bulgarian, what's your point

Zeus was just like Michael Jackson. He didn’t do anything to them keeds. He just liked having them around ok???

>>23063628
I don't know what I would do if I were a God, it is incomprehensible for mortals
>changing the subject
Fleeing in disgrace?
Admit you cannot and have never read Homer in Greek
Admit you cannot supply quotes from Homer showing faggotry

>>23063419
>Also homosexuality is not even present in most of Aeschylus' writings
Yes. That's what I said, gay retard - that you project your own homosexuality onto him.

>>23063642
All the other myths are pretty open about Zeus laying with / penetrating women. Some even going into detail. If it's not mentioned why say he was penetrating Ganymede? Also, if the home alone kid says MJ never porked him, I'm going to assume MJ wasn't screwing kids.

>muh giver-receiver dichotomy
This meme is so retarded, if being fucked is shameful then by extension fucking a boy is shameful too, its the act itself that is shameful and which taints the people involved.
Nobody is going to high five you after ruining a boys reputation like that.
Just another pedo faggot groomer lie.

>>23063419
Aeschylus was 140cm turbomanlet, I would have easily crushed him.

>>23063653
>if being fucked is shameful then by extension fucking a boy is shameful too, its the act itself that is shameful and which taints the people involved.
see >>23063618

>>23063651
>If it's not mentioned why say he was penetrating Ganymede?
intercrural sex is mentioned multiple times here >>23063501

>>23063659
not in Homer, disingenuous faggot
You cannot read Greek
You cannot show any faggotry in Homer

>>23063647
>>23063662
Yes, I cannot read Greek. Every other Greek writer assumes that the Ganymede myth is a gay pedo one, so inductively I assume there is a high probability that it is the same in Homer, especially considering the physical beauty of the boy is invoked in the text.

>>23063657
If being fucked is shameful then by extension fucking a boy is shameful too, its the act itself that is shameful and which taints the people involved.
Nobody is going to high five you after ruining a boys reputation like that.
Just another pedo faggot groomer lie.

>>23063659
Intracural isn't penetration anon. If a god is reluctant to penetrate him why would it be the societal norm to give children anal fissures which require antibiotics to fix in modern people. An anal fissure from butt sex would be lethal to an ancient person, that's why it was illegal to penetrate free born sons.

>>23063666
Was Plato lying?

>>23063672
Is Israel committing genocide?

>>23063679
Yes

>>23063618
None of this pertains to homosexuality as it is practiced today. Most descriptions fags quote refer to pederastic love. If a dozen 20th or 21st cent. faggots time travelled to ancient Greece and tried to pull their fag shenanigans they would be executed on the spot. Now find me one source from ancient Greece stating this would be allowed:

https://www.zombietime.com/up_your_alley_2008/

>Greeks were gay!
>Being gay gets you beat up in Greece
>Romans were gay!
>Being gay is a great shame to yourself and your family in Italy
>Turks were gay!
>Being gay gets you killed in Turkey
>Russians were/are gay!
>Being gay gets you beat up in Russia
>Japanese were gay!
>Being Gay is a great shame to yourself and your family in Japan

>English hate gays, its Victorian protestant morality!!!
>every English boarding school boy was molested by older boys or a teacher, diaries are full of gay shit and Anglos worship the deadly sin of pride in the name of sodomy

>>23063685
I never said it would be.

>>23063642
Since you are gay pedophile you cant imagine not wanting to fuck a kid, the fact is kidnapping kids for non-sexual slavery was not uncommon in history and even now.

>>23063698
>Japanese were gay!
>Being Gay is a great shame to yourself and your family in Japan

>>23060268
that does seem like a compelling argument

>>23063672
Plato said all kinds of homosex was against nature, he is the originator of the argument that christcucks use now.

>>23063702
Yeah and prince Genji raped a twelve year old boy because that boys sister didnt let him score, so fucking what?
Doesnt change how people behave in reality.

>>23063705
Yes, and he also said that Athenians approved of men who won boys.
>>23063706
You realise that morals and standards change. European travellers to Japan noted the publicity with which homosexuality was practiced, and there is no shortage of literary depictions of it.

>>23063679
I honestly wish they were. Genocide and colonialism need to come back into Vogue. Tired of people complaining about their living standards improving.

>>23063710
Pederasty in Japan was a buddhist thing related to certain schools of buddhism.

>>23063715
Not only in Buddhism but also among the Samurai

>>23063699
So, why quote or mention any ancient text from ancient Greece if you know that the idea of homosexuality that we have formed over the last 100 years or so is completely alien to ancient Greece?
What are you trying to prove?

>>23063718
Well a lot of the time on here I'm debating with people who deny that any sort of homosexuality existed at all. Worth noting that pederasty was not only between men and teenage boys, but could be between older men and young adults (pic related). I believe stoic texts refer to eromenoi as old as 22.

>>23063710
Wow what a coincidence that all these societies allegedly were gay once but happened to turn into bigoted fascists who wont let you fuck little boys. Especially with the Greeks, Italians, Turks and Japanese, who are very proud of their heritage and want to preserve it.
Es war einmal....

>>23063720
Yes, because they were colonised by Anglo-Saxons infested with Jewish morals (not fascists, but liberal moralists). Read Nietzsche.

>>23063665
>I assume
Wrongly
There is no evidence in Homer of faggotry, only your assumption based on other authors hundreds of years later.
Homer refers to several people as beautiful using the same term. Nireus is κάλλιστος after Achilles, does that make him a raging faggot? Priam calls Agamemnon κάλος, does he want to buttfuck him? Achilles refers to himself as κάλος, does he want to fuck himself? one of the prizes of the funeral games is κάλλος, does Homer want to fuck it?
There is more nuance to Greek words than shitty translations give you yet you base your assumptions on them.
You have no evidence of faggotry in Homer.
Your sole point is a passage you can neither read nor understand which states that Gods - other Gods - brought a handsome kid up to heaven to pour wine for Zeus. Not get buttfucked by, not to be diddled, simply and literally to pour wine.
nigger

>>23063716
Samurai were buddhist, zen buddhists introduced samurai to pederasty since 13th century.

>>23063725
See this is so funny to me, allegedly these openly "homophobic" cultures once actually were totally gay until the perfidious Anglo-Saxons came to their shores bringing the word of their Dark Lord and thus suddenly all of society unanimously chose to abandon this honoured ancient tradition of systematically molesting little boys.
Meanwhile in reality Anglos are the most degenerate, faggy people in the world and Tel Aviv is the gayest city in the middle east (the world if it wasnt for Anglo cities like SF or London)

You live in a fantasy world

>>23063702
>a story

Lots of seething leftists in this thread. Why does the left hate male love so much? Oh yeah, it's because they hate men and are Jewish.

>>23063719
homosexuality is not an abstract idea, it is a practice. The way the "homosexuality" of the ancient Greeks was practiced is completely alien and utterly unrelated to homosexuality as we know and define it today. As I said, 99.99% of modern homosexuals would not survive in ancient Greece. They would literally execute them the minute they expressed themselves openly and in the same provocative manner they do today. Try to have a gay parade in ancient Greece, and you'll get a literal bloodbath.
It's insane to watch fags point to ancient Greece to legitimize their faggotry. It's like advocating for their own extermination.

>>23063738

>>23063742
>As I said, 99.99% of modern homosexuals would not survive in ancient Greece. They would literally execute them the minute they expressed themselves openly and in the same provocative manner they do today.
What makes you think that? Agathon and Pausanias didn't get executed, and Aristophanes says there were lots of famously effeminate Athenians.

>>23063738
hmmm

>>23063746
>Aristophanes
Aristophanes was a comic who ridiculed society in his plays.
Also 30 years after his death the Macedonians subjected the Greeks and Greece never recovered, right after that the Romans enslaved them. Guess being effeminate didnt work out too well for them.

>>23063744
I accept your concession.

>>23063738
hmmmm

>>23063738
hmmmmmm

>>23063750
Then why do Arabs murder faggots? The Taliban became a massive, nationwide movement because they reliable hung faggots off the barrel of their tanks.
Did the Muslims also magically got infested with Jewish morals?

>>23063760
Yes, they got colonised by European bvlls. Also the pressure to modernise meant adopting European legal codes. Then you have fundamentalist movements which are not truly traditional but are alienated moderns trying to recover an idealised version of the past.

>>23063765
>Also the pressure to modernise meant adopting European legal codes.
Ah yes, not civil laws, corporate laws, laws of obligation and public law, no the most pressing matter was banning faggotry. Thats the secret to modernisation! If it wasnt for the Europeans, they would have never figured that out.
>fundamentalist movements which are not truly traditional but are alienated moderns trying to recover an idealised version of the past
What an ironic cope
Why does sharia say to kill faggots?

>>23063779
Not sure how I'm the one coping when I'm the only person posting primary source textual evidence from the societies you're inventing headcanons for.

>>23063782
oh ok
>Both of them – fornication and homosexuality – involve immorality that goes against the wisdom of Allah’s creation and commandment. For homosexuality involves innumerable evil and harms, and the one to whom it is done would be better off being killed than having this done to him, because after that he will become so evil and so corrupt that there can be no hope of his being reformed, and all good is lost for him, and he will no longer feel any shame before Allah or before His creation. The semen of the one who did that to him will act as a poison on his body and soul. The scholars differed as to whether the one to whom it is done will ever enter Paradise. There are two opinions which I heard Shaykh al-Islam (may Allah have mercy on him) narrate.” (Ibn al-Qayyim in Kitab al-Kafi, p. 115)

>>23063796

>>23063800
>me
>religious text
>(you)
>some book nobody has ever heard about
Oh man, I bet you have entire folder of this shit dont you.
But again, why does sharia order the execution of faggots?

>>23063804
>>some book nobody has ever heard about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qabus-nama
Religious people seethe about all kinds of shit in society, doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that most people don't do it. Most men masturbate even with religious prohibitions on it.

>>23063810
>Religious people seethe about all kinds of shit in society, doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that most people don't do it.
Poets and degenerate fantasise about all kinds of shit in society, doesnt mean it happens or that most people do it.
>Most men masturbate even with religious prohibitions on it.
Oh yeah thats the same as systematically abusing boys. Also where is the proofs? I dont think Muslims and Jews are masturbating all that much at all because the Imam/Rabbi made sure of that after they were born lol

>>23063810
Gays are disgusting and they just should go silent.
Stop talking you absolute gayshit.

>>23063816
>>23063820
Facts don't care about your feelings

>>23063836
Why does sharia order the execution of faggots and why is being a faggot absolutely not ok in Muslim countries?

>>23063836
>poem
>facts

>>23063861
Christianity also orders the execution of homos, so why aren't homos executed in the West today? There are differences between what religion says and how society actually operates. Intolerance of homosexuality is a relatively modern phenomenon in the Muslim world. In the Middle Ages you required 3 independent adult male witnesses to prove someone guilty of sodomy, very different from the lawless shenanigans of the shithole Muslim world today.

>>23063871
>Christianity also orders the execution of homos
Where in the NT did you find that?

>>23063875
I thought the death penalty for homosexuality was part of the moral law and thus not voided by the new convenant (certainly Christians in the early modern era decided this was the correct interpretation)

>>23063871
>There are differences between what religion says and how society actually operates.
In the middle ages? In Muslim theocracies?
>yeah all the evidence points to faggots not being tolerated in Islam but I am just going to pretend its the opposite because some poet wrote a poet about a boy or something
You are deluded and incapable of logical reasoning.

>>23063875
>" Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

>>23063879
>In the middle ages? In Muslim theocracies?
Yes. The Islamic Golden Age was not Wahhabist.
>You are deluded and incapable of logical reasoning.
"All the evidence"

>>23063878
>>23063883
>but to fulfil
In what way?

>>23063871
Christianity doesn't order the execution of homos. It is very tolerant of sinners, and it's why the west has such a problem with homosexuals.

>>23063878
>part of the moral law
Exactly. Capital punishment is part of Criminal Law, a concept that doesn't exist within the Church.
In Christianity homosexuality is a sin not a crime / capital offense.

>>23063890
>gay history is enslaving and raping children
kek

>>23063871
>you required 3 independent adult male witnesses to prove someone guilty of sodomy
This is still how it is in Islam, the countries like Iran and Yemen just bypass these laws.

>>23063890
It’s quite weird to me how pederasty just went away, this common phenomenon all over the world suddenly ceased in every culture and whereas back then pederasty was synonymous with homosexuality nowadays homosexuality is exclusively thought of in terms of adult relationships. Also you are a depraved ingrate for celebrating pederasty as admirable acceptance of homosexuality in history

>>23064655
Thats because it never was common, which is why the faggots proposing this have nothing but the same dozen short excerpts from the same old poets and writers. No history from below or archeology. Thus you get nonsense like idiots saying that Islam is actually pro gay because gross faggots bought slave boys to rape.

What it actually was, was pedos taking advantage of their social standing like being a noble or a patrician to abuse boys of lower standing, hence why raping "free" boys was always penalized with death. And of course nobody gave a shit what happened to slaves, so they were free to use and abuse.
Its not really much different from what is happening today with Epstein taking young girls of a lower class to a sex island to be fucked by his elite buddies, or a pedo targeting a dysfunctional family because they know they can control the "relationship", its only that social structures have changed so they cant be quite as brazen anymore. And teachers molesting their students still happens on the daily.

It was never widespread let alone celebrated and I hate all these pedophile dickheads itt who want to sell you on the idea that molesting and raping boys is actually good and wholesome, perverse evil fucks.

>>23064758
>No history from below or archeology.
This is a patent falsehood. Physical relics of art and graffiti depicting pederasty dating back to the early Archaic era have been found all over the Greek peninsula.
>raping "free" boys was always penalized with death
You still haven't explained why sexual relations between men and free boys was approved of and tolerated in ancient Greece (you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary). You seem to think that just because a thing is unpleasant it did not happen. But ancient societies were rife with slavery, infanticide, torture, mob justice, poor sanitation, excessive child discipline, genocide etc. And in many cases they were indifferent to these things or approved of them. Very few people ever questioned the morality of slavery -- even the most penetrating moralists of antiquity rarely touched on the question. And why do you single out pederasty as particularly unbelievable? We know that the ancient Greeks practiced heterosexual hebephilia too, as did most societies before the late nineteenth century. Are you one of those pedophiles who thinks heterosexual pedophilia is okay?

>>23064803
>>23064812
>>23064817
>>23064824
>>23064829
Notice that these are opinions, and polemics.
Try finding one account of anyone saying
that he got buggered up the ass, and it was normal and wonderful.
This is what homosexuality is. Getting fucked up the ass.

>>23064925
You're a weirdo.

>>23064930
No u.

>>23064933
Cute reply.. I lost all negative feelings towards you

>>23064781
>And why do you single out pederasty as particularly unbelievable?
I dont, in fact it is still happening more often than we want to admit.
What I am saying is that it wasnt a good thing, the majority of society didnt participate in it and found it disgusting.
The problem I have with it, is that its used to justify child molestation and an attempt to normalize it by portraying it as something normal, with the condemnation of it being a historical abnormality. Its a good thing "pederasty" and child marriage is illegal and I hope it will forever be, its primitive barbarity.
Do you think we should bring back slavery because the Greeks practiced it?

>>23064925
People couldn't be buggered up the ass regularly back then. 1 anal fissure could be fatal. Due to modern medicine and antibiotics the gay lifestyle is possible but back then even Kinaidos had to engage in homo stuff way differently.

>>23064925
greeks didn't do buttfucking, dummy, they did intercrural frottage. it's just dry-humping

People said Renly Baratheon was gay in Game of Thrones and I just read the part where he died and far the gayest thing he did was eat a peach and decide his kingsguard should be called 'rainbow guard'. People love to say anything is gay. You ask the average person and theyll think every single male in ancient greece was a homosexual

L9l.

>>23060345

Homer didn't compose anything, he galvanised and committed to writing a poem out of dozens of legends which prexisted him for a long time (centuries probably) and may have even had their origins in distant cultures. Like every myth, there were probably a thousand different versions which he picked and chose from, and in some they were probably lovers (which was commonplace in Greek culture obviously) and in others they weren't

>>23065453
No, the Iliad and Odyssey are long form poems that are memorized and performed with the accompanyment of a drone instrument in Hexameter and kind of sung out loud. There were herders in the Balkans still doing that about 100 years ago. His composition was mostly in the Homeric Simile which was an improvised section of the performance.

>>23059647
There is some kind of overshooting.
There was some time where people denied clear gay relationships.

Now, things went to the extreme in the opposite way and some academics basically turned into anime fujoshi.
Some people right now think Ancient Greeks and Romans were similar to promiscuous San Francisco men in the 1980s.

>>23065314
>the majority of society didnt participate in it and found it disgusting.
you need evidence

>>23065314
I find it funny gays want to be associated with kid fucking. Everytime gays try to use history to justify homosexuality it is an old man raping a young boy.

>>23065873
You just have to examine the laws, death penalty for penetrating a free man's son, calling pathics Kinaidos, banning penetrated men from voting and speaking at forum etc

>>23065892
>death penalty for penetrating a free man's son
post a source
>banning penetrated men from voting and speaking at forum
Didn't happen. Pic related

>>23062870
>>23062880
So what? Achilles isn't Homer's original character, you know.

>>23060235
To be the devil's advocate, how could you prove that these people are not just back-projecting the homosexual zeitgeist of the era they lived in back on homeric times? This line of argumentation seems weak to me because it relies on external evidence. A more cynical person would probably call it the ancient equivalent of claiming that Shakespeare or this or that famous literary figure from centuries ago was actually gay.

>>23065947
Obviously it's only evidence about what Classical Greeks thought of the myth. The bisexual nature of Shakespeare's sonnets seems difficult to avoid, however:
>It is the story of a man torn between passionate affection for another man and reluctant passion for a woman whom he neither trusts nor respects. No reading of the sonnets can obscure that amount of ‘plot’ or ‘situation’… The difficult which faces us if we try to read the sequence like a novel is that the precise mode of love which the poet declares for the Man remains obscure. His language is too lover-like for that of ordinary male friendship
CS Lewis, Poetry and Prose in the 16th Century

The funny thing is that in the middle ages islamic and christian attitudes towards homosexuality were the complete opposite of what they are today. Christian Europe did not tolerate it at all, not even the usually sexually degenerate elite, while it was a completely normalized thing in islamic realms. Just compare how heterosexual troubadour poetry is with how almost all great muslim poets of the middle ages wrote about their bottomless lust for other men.

>>23063259
>Theognis,
Literally no-one remotely reputable credits these as actually belonging to him, and they are widely agreed to be a forgery added on to his works at a much later date.

I can't speak for your other examples but given this obviously spurious component, I imagine you're just as full of shit elsewhere as here.

>>23065977
The fragments attributed to him which speak about Cyrnus are considered authentic

Can you aesthetically enjoy ancient love poetry that was definitely not written with your sexual orientation in mind?

>>23065988
>source: my gender studies professor
Cyrnus talks about a lot of things, 99% of it has nothing to do with fags, there's 1 shitty line about Ganymede that is very out of place and probably fake. The fact the rest are real or at least corroborated elsewhere doesn't make it real by association. The works of Theognis are well known for being adulterated.

>>23065966
>bottomless lust for other men
You need an editor anon, seems like a poor choice of adjective.

>>23066005
Cyrnus doesn't "speak" about anything, Cyrnus is an object to which some of the fragments are addressed, not attributed.

>>23066014
I'm obviously referring to the work here dingus. Saying Cyrrnus is a lot easier than Elegy and Iambus Volume 2 Book 1 or whatever, it's not an anthropomorphization.

>>23066048
Nice try freak

>>23066076
t. literally did the same thing here retard >>23065988
although I will concede don't know if your insistence is ideologically motivated or just stupidity, either is possible in these parts, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're a fag pretending to have low reading comprehension

>>23066076
t. literally did the same thing here >>23065988
although I will concede I don't know if your insistence is ideologically motivated or just stupidity, either is possible in these parts, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're a fag pretending to have low reading comprehension

>>23066184
Every time they want to be associated with pedophiles. I don't get gay people.

>>23060785
In case you missed it, Patroclus was the hairy one. Achilles was a muscular twink (eromenos)

>>23067726
Achilles definitely wasn't a Twink since he was bigger than Ajax and Hector.

>>23060918
There's nothing homosexual or even homoerotic about rubbing inner thighs with your bros

>>23067736
Intracural isn't in the Iliad, plus that's a Doric Creten tradition, not an Achaean tradition.

>>23063600
This is true but it doesn't reduce the oily pederastic intercrural sex that wasn't necessarily widespread among the ancient Greeks but also not unknown among them

>>23067729
How would you describe a hairless youthful "bottom"(not buttsex though). I'm not familiar with gay lingo

>>23065912
And?

>>23067966
Achilles in the Iliad was the largest and most fearsome warrior. Just because something written 300 years after the Iliad doesn't mean it's true and Greeks hated bottoms. They were called Kinaidos and weren't even allowed to vote.

>>23067986
He wasn't assfucked, anon. But he was still eromenos to Achilles despite also being huge. I don't think that he is necessarily gay(a modern idea) but there's certainly some homoerotic understanding of it. Do you really think you have a better grasp of the Iliad than Plato?

>>23068019
Yes, because Plato was antagonistic to Greek society and lived 300 years after the composition of the Iliad.

The people pushing the myth that everybody in ancient Greece was gay misuse and mistranslate Greek terms. Most notably erastenes and eromenos.
The important thing to note is that the ancient Greek conception of love wasn't limited to sexual love. In fact, the Greeks made very explicit distinctions between sexual or vulgar love and intellectual or spiritual love.
To say that Achilles (or anybody else) loved his friend doesn't imply in any way that they were having sex, just like if you today someone says that they love their mother that doesn't imply incest.

>>23059647
Thread theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4KLOm7pO0

>>23063259
>and never about Achilles being shot in his ankle or the Trojan horse
I do seethe about the ankle thing.
The Trojan Horse is actually mentioned in the Odyssey btw. How did you not know that?

Here for everybody to repost whenever someone mentions this myth in the future.
When Greeks talk about actual sexual intercourse between same-sex couples their opinion is rather negative.

>>23068071
If that’s the case then why is it when Xenophon argues (contra Plato) that they weren’t homosexual he says that Achilles WASN’T his eromenos.

>>23068116
Plato is not a Greek conservative, but a radical reformer of society.

>>23068323
>when Xenophon argues (contra Plato) that they weren’t homosexual
What actual Greek word did Xenophon use?
>>23068332
I'm not claiming that Plato's text implies that such a law did exist. The quote by Plato does refute the idea that all Greeks, and Plato specifically, supported same-sex sexual intercourse.

>>23068366
>refute the idea that all Greeks, and Plato specifically, supported same-sex sexual intercourse.
No one in academia claims this. Perhaps people with a superficial pop cultural understanding of antiquity think this, but it’s a distortion of the more nuanced truth that homosexuality was more acceptable and visible in Ancient Greek society than it was in many others — or at least compared to many of the Western cultures that claimed descendance from Greece and recognised it as a cultural forebear, and for whom the homosexual element represented a strange and alien ingredient in their public life
>What actual Greek word did Xenophon use?
I will have to look at it later

>>23068323
The text makes no hint that they were eromemos or that institution was in play in the Greek Dark ages.

>>23059647
>does a victory lap around Troy dragging Hector's corpse because he got tilted
Pretty fucking gay bro

>Achilles refuses to fight because Agamemnon stole his female slave waifu
>Oh, but he he's totally gay because he has a strong bond with a cousin

This unironically says a lot about society. Male bonding has been so thoroughly pathologized, people cant imagine two men having a brotherly bond without them shit-packing each other.

>>23068393
>No one in academia claims this.
ok
>but it’s a distortion of the more nuanced truth that homosexuality was more acceptable and visible in Ancient Greek society
you just made the claim you said no one makes

jew

>>23069443
Even before he left for Troy he knocked up a girl unwillingly. According to Ovid he'd press his manhood against her until she relented.

>>23059647
Achilles is gay? Ong?

>>23069776
You’re stupid if you can’t tell the difference between those two assertions. The latter is true, no matter how much you dislike it

>>23070833
>you're unintelligent because you disagree with me
>look just accept what I say it's true even if you don't accept it so accept it
lol
some serious polemic power behind your brain

>>23059652
And American tradlarpers do the exact opposite

If the Greeks approved of homosexuality then why did the Ciconian women murder Orpheus for turning their husbands gay? Checkmate homos.
https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph11.php

Homosexuality and bisexuality has always primarily afflicted the bourgeoisie and the upper classes. When we judge how ubiquitous non-heterosexual relations were in antiquity it should be taken into consideration that practically every text that survives from antiquity was written by the greek and the roman bourgeoisie, whose tastes and opinions are not reflective whatsoever of the overall societies they inhabited. Just like the sexuality and opinions of your average upper-middle class twat from NYC is not representative of the society of the united states in general.

>>23071158
Because they wanted dick.

>>23071173
So the upper Indo-European steppe warrior element in Greek society were the gay ones, not the EEF/Minoan/Pelasgian subalterns?

The Indo-European mannerbund has always had a homosexual element to it. The roving warband that fights together, away from women on campaign, fucked together.

>>23071186
Next you'll try to tell me that Odin swallowed his semen for magic powers.

>>23069443
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8vzIRQLLM

>>23071173
>Homosexuality and bisexuality has always primarily afflicted the bourgeoisie and the upper classes.
Conservatives nowadays like to say this because they have been infected by populism, whereas back in the 19th century the meme was that sodomy was a working class phenomenon produced by racial degeneration. make up your minds

>>23071158
Women naturally seethe when they realise men don't need them..

>>23059652
>>23059717
It's mostly about his attachment to Patroclus in the Iliad
>Achilles and Patroclus quarter together in a tent
>In Book IX (lines 225 to 241) the diplomats, Odysseus and Ajax, hear Achilles playing the lyre and singing all alone with Patroclus. They both spring to their feet in surprise as the guests enter.
>Patroclus' death at the hands of Hector throws Achilles into deep grief. The earlier steadfast and unbreakable Achilles agonizes, touching Patroclus' dead body, smearing himself with ash and fasting. He laments Patroclus' death using language very similar to the grief of Hector's wife. He also requests that when he dies, his bones be mixed with Patroclus' in a vase
>The rage that follows from Patroclus' death becomes the prime motivation for Achilles to return to the battlefield. He returns to battle with the sole aim of avenging Patroclus' death by killing Hector, despite a warning that doing so would cost him his life. After defeating Hector, Achilles drags his corpse by the heels behind his chariot.

various Greek texts presented Achilles and Patroclus as lovers particularly in the works of Aeschylus (in The Myrmidons), Aeschines, Pindar (in Olympian) and Plato.

Shakespeare's play Troilus and Cressida portrays Achilles and Patroclus as lovers in the eyes of the Greeks.

as for the Troilus Legend (which was popular in ancient Greece and depicted on many vases etc), there are version of that were Achilles falls in lust with Troilus and Achilles was enraged because Troilus refused Achilles's sexual advances.

>>23059647
It is gay

one of the oldest extant works of literature still widely read, and it's about a gay superhero

>>23073558
Yeah.

>>23071432
Any sources for the latter claim? The idea that material comfort and unchallenged power turns people soft, weak, effeminate, and degenerate is a far older meme.

>>23059647
How old is Achilles?
The wedding with the apple that starts the Trojan War was between his parents so he wasn't even born yet.
But then Philoctetes and his bow is convinced to return to the war by the son of Achilles.
How did Achilles go from parents wedding to being born to becoming an adult warrior to having a son to his son being an adult warrior all within the span of the Golden Apple to before the end of the war?

>>23074269
The simplest answer is to imagine that Achilles was born well before his parents were married.
There's no textual evidence for that, of course.

>>23074269
Achilles was in his 20s when he died.
Neoptolemus is said be 12 when Achilles died. So you can assume Achilles would be around 25 at death to be old enough to have a 12 year old son.
Helen of Troy was I believe kidnapped at around 12 years old so by the end of the Trojan War (25 years) she would be around 37 years old and 27 years old at the start of the war with about 15 years between kidnapping and the ships sailing.

>>23074299
The evidence shows that he must have been born after the marriage because the entire purpose of the marriage centered around a prophesy of the bride giving birth to a powerful son.

>>23061049
>>23060982
Pederasty was institutionalized and commonplace among all the cultures you pointed out as counterexamples.
>No it wasnt. Not among the Romans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
>not among the Samurai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan#Pre-Meiji_Japan
>not among the Turks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_sexual_minorities_in_the_Ottoman_Empire
>how do you explain away that all of modern psychology and psychiatry acknowledges that sexually abusing a child or a teen is one of the most damaging thing you can do to them?
It doesn't. Not a single study has even shown that consensual sexual relationships between adults and children/adolescents is correlated with negative outcomes. Child sexual abuse theory is a discredited pseudoscience.

James Cantor PhD:
>The research is much more consistent with the conclusion that harm is caused instead by coercion, manipulation, secrecy, and by courting kids who already have problems, not the sexual interactions per se.

Michael Bailey PhD:
>Indeed, the best scientific evidence suggests that the most typical experiences considered childhood sexual abuse may not be as harmful as most people think. Specifically, sexual activity that children engage in voluntarily (albeit illegally) with adults is nearly uncorrelated with undesirable outcomes

Studies which purport to show a causal link between minor-adult sex and psychological harm use clinical samples and don't control for confounding factors, such as family environment and whether or not simple consent was present. The belief that minor-adult sex always results in mental trauma comes from combining all outcomes of child-adult sex and averaging them, refusing to examine separately outcomes where minor-adult sex was not forcible or coerced, for ideological reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rind_et_al._controversy
>The most damaging thing if it involves penetration
Empirical studies show that adolescents react most favourably to penetrative sexual encounters involving adults, because they are likely to involve more intimacy than sexual encounters which do not involve penetration, which is the same as with adults. Adolescents as a group do not react more negatively towards sex with adults than adults do.

Source:
Rind, B. (2023). Subjective Reactions to First Coitus in Relation to Participant Sex, Partner Age, and Context in a German Nationally Representative Sample of Adolescents and Young Adults.
Rind, B. (2022). "Reactions to Minor-Older and Minor-Peer Sex as a Function of Personal and Situational Variables in a Finnish Nationally Representative Student Sample",

>>23074382
>faggot pedophile's every post is about pedophilia
post a picture of your living quarters with timestamp

>>23066014
being able to quickly reply like this is the difference between actually studying the literature and being a speedreading wikipedia faggot like>>23066048

>>23068027
So Achilles isn't gay because Plato say he is, and that is the case because Plato goes against Greek norms.
You could not have made it any easier to prove how little you know of Greek history

>>23074704
>he's still bumping the thread and seething after getting btfo

>>23074710
>So Achilles isn't gay because Plato say he is, and that is the case because Plato goes against Greek norms.
>You could not have made it any easier to prove how little you know of Greek history
so just so I understand your argument, Plato's beliefs are counter to the Greek norms yes?

>>23063223
Thank you Anon. "Achilles was a fag" is just cocksuckers rewriting history. Ties in nicely with the dumber people are, the better agenda.
Also Madeline Miller is terrible at writing.

>>23075391
I don't know how you can get more homosexual than Achilles as portrayed in the Illiad.

above posted summed it up nicely if you've never read it:
>Achilles and Patroclus quarter together in a tent
>In Book IX (lines 225 to 241) the diplomats, Odysseus and Ajax, hear Achilles playing the lyre and singing all alone with Patroclus. They both spring to their feet in surprise as the guests enter.
>Patroclus' death at the hands of Hector throws Achilles into deep grief. The earlier steadfast and unbreakable Achilles agonizes, touching Patroclus' dead body, smearing himself with ash and fasting. He laments Patroclus' death using language very similar to the grief of Hector's wife. He also requests that when he dies, his bones be mixed with Patroclus' in a vase
>The rage that follows from Patroclus' death becomes the prime motivation for Achilles to return to the battlefield. He returns to battle with the sole aim of avenging Patroclus' death by killing Hector, despite a warning that doing so would cost him his life. After defeating Hector, Achilles drags his corpse by the heels behind his chariot.

stop bumping this garbage you troons

>>23060820
wow its almost like humans are shit gay or straight

>>23076159
They quarter in their tent with their war brides anon on opposite ends of their tent anon.

>>23076159
I've literally done all those things with my mates and I am not gay. What man hasn't gone to a karoke booth with his mates to sing and drink, and gotten into a fight with a neighbouring room? They don't have security guards there just to stop Asians stabbing eachother.

In 3000 years we'll have people arguing Mishima wasn't gay. I suppose the problem point is identifying classical homosexuality with modern gay identity, which is obviously anachronistic and incorrect. Manlove was a course in the banquet of classical life, be it side or main it was typically had amongst other dishes.