/lit/ - Literature

>>23052719
If you converted to Christianity you were never really an atheist.

>>23052719
>joins cult
>wow everything is fake and hypocritical
>what shall I do
Anon. Church is for company, not enlightenment. Think of it like LARP'ing.

There is no confident link between the catholic church and the original jesus unless you go so vague that it also let's you say prostantism is directly descended or any other branch.

To be honest the whole concept of a church with priests and power structures and everything seems completely unjustified

>>23052719
well, there was someone else who had some problems with the church once... maybe see things from his perspective.

>>23052733
>>23052748
>>23052754
“Christ is the head of the Church. He is the saviour of his body.” (Eph. 5:23)

“If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” (Mt. 18:17)

"Obey your prelates, and be subject to them." (Heb. 13:17)

>>23052758
He had every right to be scandalized, as was Savonarola. But you do not throw out the baby with the bad bathwater. They do not even believe in the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Consubstantiation is straight-up idolatry. Protestantism is false.

>>23052766
What is the original word used in Greek? So you have proof that by church they mean catholic? Because Jesus and his methods do not resemble the modern day catholic church whatsoever

>>23052780
>Because Jesus and his methods do not resemble the modern day catholic church whatsoever
That is why these verses are so important:

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" [Matthew 28:20]

“And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers. And all they that believed were together and had all things common.” (Acts 2:42, 44)

Have you heard of the discipline of the secret? It is the precept that the Apostle's Creed and other God-given spiritual treasures were not written down, but memorized and passed down from the apostles (the foundation of the Church- Apoc. 21:14) to Church Father to Church Father. St. Polycarp was a disciple of St. John the Apostle, and St. Polycarp taught St. Irenaeus, etc etc.

No, Jesus and his methods do not represent the current Catholic Church. That is why I am looking for the one, true Church.

>>23052719
What do you expect from a cult of human sacrifice and cannibalism which has a history of violently suppressing opposition to it's absurd claims?

>>23052810
look at me im an atheist im so fucking cool bro the muslims and jeeews they are so cool bro yeeee BAD CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!
IM A MONKEEEEE THAT TRANSFORMED FROM A FISH BAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NIGGer Nigger I WILL cuT YOUr throat open NIEGGRE

>>23052843
Typical religion enjoyer.

>>23052877
uga buga christianity baaad muuuuuhh
i will NOT kill your whole family and rape their dead corpses, surely i would never do that to an atheist? i mean why would i right?

>>23052965
You're being overly defensive. All religions are retarded, your childhood favorite doesn't get extra points.

>>23052988
cope & seeth.
post your address if you are so confident. i will kill you and smash your skull in with a hammer. piss on your dead family and friends NIGGERJEW

>>23053015
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500, USA.

Don't mind my security, just run full tilt through the front door, okay?

>>23053024
fearful? amerimutt! doesn't know what his ancestors even are, cultureless, raceless, subhumanoid piggie.
get shot with jagdgewehr with silencer on irl in game by caitlyn ultimate

>>23052719
You have to start thinking more small-scale and locally instead of so large like this. You're not bowing down before the pope when you go to church. It's a local Christian community and place of worship for God, not for the Vatican. Find one of a different denomination if you can't get over the pope thing.
>they deny the filioque
This is minutia. It doesn't change anything in their doctrine.
>all the so-called Christians nearby proximity are all charismatic crazies who read into demonic apparitions and wear colourful scapulars instead of obeying God's commandments
Huh... what are you on about. If all the Christians around you happen to be insane, this is the foremost issue you'd have trying to attend a church before all the other shit about the pope and stuff...

Anyway, you overall seem to be losing the forest for the trees here. You're caught up on stuff that doesn't matter.
The average Catholic is there because it's the church they were baptized into and generations of their family have Catholic tradition. Chances are they don't know much about the church's history, the Filarate doors, all that stuff you mentioned. They're just there to worship.

>>23052733
/thread

Is that by my nigga carlo dolci

>>23052719
What's the big deal about the Filarate Doors, and why is it heretical?

t. non-Catholic

>>23052719

From here, maybe focus on living a morally upright life with active prayer rather than choosing which denomination you want to associate yourself with. It sounds like an SSPX or CMRI might be what you're looking for. Of course, a lot of them don't believe the apostasy goes that far back. Plus they have their own issues. Again, you'd be better off focusing inward and becoming Christ-like yourself before you focus too much on ingroups and creeds. It's not the Church that we worship, it's Christ.

>>23052733

That's quite a Calvinist way of looking at atheism.

>>23053167
There are Greek mythological symbols in it. That said, in Luis de Camoes's The Lusiads there is a note from the Holy Inquisition that says that the presence of Greek myths in the poem is excused due to poetic license. So OP is more scrupulous than the Holy Inquisition, imagine that.

>>23053207
>There are Greek mythological symbols in it. That said, in Luis de Camoes's The Lusiads there is a note from the Holy Inquisition that says that the presence of Greek myths in the poem is excused due to poetic license. So OP is more scrupulous than the Holy Inquisition, imagine that.
You are an apologist for apostate bastards breaking the first commandment. Those doors contain a depiction of false god Zeus raping Ganymede (a child in mythology). No wonder you have the pedo demons running wild in the Vatican.

>>23053196
That apostasy goes back at least as far as Constantine and the Synod of Lateran (313) and Synod of Arles (314).

Fortunately God preserved the church, and His word also, despite the existence of yet more false prophets. They, like the gnostics (Marcionites), tried and failed - naturally - to emulate the church, which is God's institution on earth, and is the pillar and ground of the truth like it says in 1 Timothy 3:15. One of the most important realities of this is that the Scriptures were kept and preserved within the churches, eventually leading to the Geneva Bible of 1560, an English translation which is largely the same as the King James, and similar translations being made in other languages around the same time.

>>23052719
>>Orthodoxy is also a no-go because they deny the filioque
How do you theologically justify the filioque, then?

>>23052719
>Why are they only giving bread and not wine?
I have taken wine at Novus Ordo masses since I was in grade school what are you talking about?

Also not literature.

>>23052843
>>23052965
>>23053015
>>23053073
If 4chan Christians were genuine instead of being just another (particularly obnoxious) variety of shitposter they would not post this way. I know there are some genuine Christians on here but they are in the definitive minority. The rest are prideful, mean-spirited nihilists who think quoting Bible verses gives grist to their petty hatreds and insecurities

>>23052754
>There is no confident link between the catholic church and the original jesus
Several Church Fathers and Councils explicitly refer to the Church as "the Catholic Church" centuries before it was supposedly "created" after the East-West schism. Both Orthodox and Protestants deny this. Augustine, John of Damascus, Eusebius, the Council of Carthage and others all explicitly say "Catholic Church."

>To be honest the whole concept of a church with priests and power structures and everything seems completely unjustified
Matthew 16:18, John 21:16.

>>23053276
> Those doors contain a depiction of false god Zeus raping Ganymede (a child in mythology). No wonder you have the pedo demons running wild in the Vatican.
Michelangelo depicted this as well. Gonna cry?

>believes with no evidence

why?

>>23053276
The Filarete door was also part of the narthex of the church, which in church architecture theory was not considered "part of the church" but a part of the outside of the church if you want to get autistically technical.

If you wanted to get even more autistically technical and anxious about this kind of shit you could look at the image of Hermes Trismegistus in the Siena Cathedral who was considered a wise pre-Christian sage (Augustine revered him) but depending on your interpretation could also qualify as an image of the Egyptian god Thoth. I don't know if this image of Trismegistus is in the narthex or the church proper though.

>>23052719
OP, you should see a professional about OCD. You seem to suffer from scrupulosity. Cheers

>>23054209
The Orthodox acknowledge the church was catholic before the Great Schism. They even say it in the Creed, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church"

>>23054257
>you could look at the image of Hermes Trismegistus in the Siena Cathedral
Yes, the desecrations are everywhere. The doors are the most notorious. Gargoyles (demons) on Cathedrals, naked babies, grotesque/deformed humans, nudity (Sistine Chapel), etc. And also the image of Aquinas next to pagan philosophers Aristotle and Plato, as if they are Catholic Christians in heaven.
>>23054290
The Lord God will judge us all.

>>23052719
>Further discover that Rome has been in full-blown apostsasy since at least the 15th century, markedly since 'Pope' Eugene IV commissioned the idolatrous Filarete doors of St. Peter's

Anon, one set of doors, in one cathedral, doesn't invalidate the Church.

A shitty Pope doesn't invalidate the Church, either. You've clearly read some Church history so you must know we've had quite a few shitty Popes, the Church has endured.

I suggest you start praying the Rosary, or perhaps the Liturgy of the Hours. A daily devotion will strengthen your faith.

>>23052719
You can have your own relationship to God. You don't need the church to be saved. Dogmas are human, they'll always be flawed.

>>23052843
Any truthful atheist won't shit on institutionalized religions. There's no harm in gathering the good aspects of all the world's theistic organizations.
Atheism is just not believing in literal gods or creators.

>>23055106
>nudity
So you just think the human body is inherently sinful? Sounds like Gnosticism.

>>23052766
The presence of always online tradcaths are starting to annoy the fuck out of me

>>23053073
And the always online tradcath reveals his hand, and would you look at it, it’s brown, by god!

>>23055343
They're posturing so hard. It's funny that so called religious people need to project outward this much. Truly spiritual people don't need this kind of signaling. Anyone trying to show his 'so pure' Christianity to the world is mired in the tricks of his ego, concerned about his image more than his soul.

>>23052766
You're so full of it. Focus on introspection instead of trying to fight 500 years old wars you pathetic wanna-be saint.

>>23054210
>Gonna cry?
Yes.

>>23055343
They're paid to be here

>>23052719
You are like a leaf in the wind. The one common thread through all of your religious "beliefs" is a need to feel different. You were raised in a Christian country, so you became an atheist. You began to perceive the godlessness of the modern world so you turned back to Christianity, but went with Catholicism because it's different enough from American protestantism to serve your needs. And now you see that even the Catholic church changes with broader culture so you're moving on to the next thing. I recommend you skip to the end. Join or start a schismatic cult and go die in the woods somewhere.

>>23056175
Or choose to believe as few false things as possible and avoid religion entirely

>>23054222
Credo quia absurdum

>>23052719
>there must be Le One Church which traces itself back to the apostles
The whole "traces itself" thing is your problem.
Here are your options:
>The real "church" is a spiritual thing, not an earthly authority such as the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or any other such thing
>The real church is whatever existing one has the policies that you most agree with, and you can just swallow their explanation for why they are The One True Christian Church (For Real)
>All earthly churches are imperfect, so you ought to take it upon yourself to either conquer and reform one or make a new one yourself, so that you'll finally have The One True Christian Church (For Real) (Seriously)
>take that critical thinking which you would use to criticize an improper church and use it to criticize Christianity in a more general way, seeking after the truth even if it means you won't be "Christian" according to the conventional sense of the word anymore

>>23054209
>the catholic church says the catholic church is right
Anon please. You can't cite church fathers. That makes no sense.
The modern idea of church makes no sense. Ornate Jesus bloody on a cross in an ornate ridiculously extravagant building surrounded by poverty where everyone is silent listening to one man raised above them who is speaking in a language most don't understand and they all have these rituals and idols
It makes no sense.

>>23052719
The Reformers noticed many of the same problems. Luther, by the standards of contemporary non-denominationals, was very moderate in his reforms and only rejected the Pope's authority after the Papacy demanded he recant his entirely valid criticisms of indulgences. He later wrote that he had fully expected the Pope to back him up because the practise was so obviously corrupt, in fact one of the 99 theses is that indulgences are bad because they make people question the church's authority.

The Reformers were very involved with Church history and tradition, they often cited Church Fathers and theologians more than the Bible to show that tradition was against Rome's innovations. Read the original "To The Reader" essay of the King James Bible, it repeatedly quotes the Fathers. For Rome, the problem was placing its own authority above all else, especially above combating corruption and false innovations, which continues into modern times. See: Papal Infallibility, only defined in the late 19th century; or the more recent Fiducia Supplicans, internal criticism of which is being dismissed by Francis.

>>23052766
>They do not even believe in the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Consubstantiation is straight-up idolatry. Protestantism is false.
Luther and Lutherans absolutely believe in the real presence in the bread and wine, and reject consubstantian as well as transubstantiation due to their attempts to over-define a divine mystery with Aristotelean philosophy. Lutherans believe that Jesus' body is physically present "in, with, and under" the bread and wine. He railed against the symbolic interpretation of Zwingli and engaged him in a heated debate about it.

>>23052733
there are very few "real" atheists

>>23052719
>"Wait, hold on, why are they giving Holy Communion to a tranny?
If you go to any church and there are no sinners you are in the wrong place, run
>Why are they only giving bread and not wine?"
They don't want to spill the blood of Christ
>some nonsense
The Catholic Church is the only true church btw

>>23052754
There's the 5 different Sees, Rome just being one of them (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem)
>Five patriarchates, collectively called the pentarchy, were the first to be recognized by the legislation of the emperor Justinian
Tracing the history and relations between them is interest

Then there was the Great Schism or 1054, between the Greek East and Latin West, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
>today there are 23 Eastern-Rite churches in full communion with Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Then there was the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, but all the mainstream "high liturgy" Protestant churches, while they disagree with Rome on a lot of the finer details, you go to a service at any of them (Anglican/Episcopal, Luthern, Methodist, etc) they are still pretty similar to a Catholic service and the lectionary they use is based of the one Rome uses

Then you have all the non-demonimational churches that pretty much do whatever they want and a lot of those are cool too

All of the above is pretty cool to learn about and hang out with, in addition to your own personal relationship with Jesus and Scripture

>>23057131
You didn't respond to the Bible quotations explicitly pointing out the need for a Church. You just ignored the Church's history and arguments and spouted dumb Reformation-style propaganda against the Church, which is still the most active charitable institution on the planet.

>speaking in a language most don't understand
Almost all masses are in common language. Even if not, no one is stopping your lazy ass from learning Latin or Greek.
>they all have these rituals
So did the Israelites of the Old Testament.

>>23052719
Fake christcucks are annoying. You should consider Calvinism if you want to stay religious but don't care for Catholicism's apostolic authority.

>>23052719
Catholicism is a joke. I tried to be a Catholic too, I even got confirmed, but like you I learned all of these things and didn’t feel like committing intellectual suicide like some popular Catholic apologists. But where does one go from here? I say do not doubt God. God is real, there are many reasons to affirm this, whether it’s on rational grounds, NDE evidence, or from mystical experiences in general.

Also, there is one Church, do not think it is a defined institution though. The Body of Christ is far exalted above what they say of it. Enoch was in the Church, as was Noah, as was Abraham, Isaac Jacob, Moses, etc. My point is that the true Church consists in union with the Logos, no matter where one is. The God revealed in Christ is not so capricious that he will send people to hell for denying certain propositional truths fossilized in man-made dogmas or for not being part of a given man-made institution.

>>23058695
>Israelites are given extensive rules for human institution (entire book of Leviticus)
>Jesus says that he is not destroying these laws or institutions (Matthew 5:17)
>Jesus explicitly uses the concrete terminology of a human institution in describing the Church to Peter (Matthew 16:18)
>Peter obviously understands this to mean a defined entity or he wouldn't be administering sacraments like he does in Acts 2:38
>"dude the Church and the sacraments don't matter lol"
God demanding belief in him but offering no concrete instructions or guidelines on what that belief entails honestly sounds even dumber than atheism.

>>23053276
I laughed. Why are these monotheistic religions so autistic?

>>23052719
Quakerism is the only answer. Your relationship with God is all that matters, nobody else. The Vatican has been operated by jews for centuries now and Orthodoxy is outdated.
Face it, any organised religion will never meet your religious needs as an indiviual and it's ridiculous to expect them to. They're huge socities dedicated to the mainstream, dimeadozen Christian who doesn't think too deeply about his beliefs as they've been ingrained so deeply into culture that it's all he knows. They're not dedicated to someone who wants to expand their theological knowledge. If you said what you've said to a priest you'd be branded as a heretic. Therefore Quakerism is a natrual development for you, as you don't need some fraud who fails to understand you dictating your spiritual journey. That's for you and God alone

>>23059375
How do I take the Quakerpill?

>>23057183
Every human worships a God.
If God doesn't exist, then it would be necessary to make one.
-Voltaire

>>23052719

If you reject Vatican II you reject God's true Church. Sorry but that's how it is.

>>23059555
Depending on what country you live in, there's usually a Friends meeting centre you can pop into, they can tell you everything you need to know. Failing that, just search it up. I'm not a Quaker myself and not exactly knowledgable about the sect other than some surface level information, but I was introduced to it through a family friend who gave me some literature from the Friends centre he would frequent.
Good luck, anon!

>>23052719
sticky says
>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/
please go there