/lit/ - Literature

>>23018310
>has the chance to build a utopia out of the ashes of humanity, however he pleases
>invents money and debt
what a stupid fucking anime.

>>23018361
Lol really? How did he enforce it?

>>23018361
How do you pull resources together without violence in your utopia?

>>23018370
no idea, I immediately dropped it

>>23018377
there's like 200 people on their entire continent, there's no reason to fight for resources.

>>23018361
>Imagine a world made up of two villages, a week’s ride apart. Maysville, where corn is grown and eaten, and Cottonton, which produces cotton. The resident of both villages work diligently, but their lives aren’t great. The Maysians eat well but have nothing to wear but tunics stitched of corn leaves; the Cottonites have good fabric but meager lunches.
>There’s one Maysvillian, Banksy, who just sucks at growing corn. At harvest, he barely has enough cobs to fill a single cart. But then Banksy has an idea. He takes the cart and rides out of Maysville, returning after a fortnight with a cart full of t-shirts, jeans, and underwear. The Maysians are happy to trade huge amounts of the corn they don’t need for a pair of MeUndies. After a few trips, Banksy has as much corn as the best farmers in town.
>Some of the older farmers sneer at the young entrepreneur. “In my day, to get a silo full of grain you had to pull it out of the ground yourself”, they mutter. “What did you do to deserve your riches?”
>“I took on price risk and foreign exchange risk in connecting our village to geographically diverse markets”, replies Banksy.
>“Sounds like a scam”, say the elders.
>A while later, two women named Tori and Tilly are walking around Maysville telling everyone about a new idea they came up with. Instead of eating the corn raw, they could dry and mill it into flour, then bake it in flat circles. They named it after themselves: a tortilla. Unfortunately, the tortillas so far are hypothetical: Tori and Tilly don’t have enough corn to pay builders to construct a corn mill, and no one in Maysville is willing to work for free.
>Banksy comes with a proposition: he will lend the two women 10 bushels to pay the laborers, and they pay him back 20 bushels when their tortillery is set up. Tori and Tilly agree, and soon Maysville is booming with baked delicacies of every sort from nachos to cornbread. Unfortunately, Tori and Tilly go out of business after an angry mob accuses them of cultural appropriation.
>Banksy is richer than ever, and the elders are angrier than ever. “You used to pull your cart, now you get rich just by sitting around!” they shout.
>“I took on time risk and credit risk by allowing our village to trade not just across geographies, but also across time,” says Banksy. “We are 99%!” the elders keep screaming as they slowly shrink and transform into corn cobs.
stfu corn cob

>>23018388
Okay, how do you pull resources to you so you can fund bigger projects? What's the incentive for other people to help you?

>>23018310
Release That Witch novel

>>23018370
charismatic fag told cavemen he was rich because he had pieces of paper (that he himself issued) and after a bit of trading paper for services everyone was into it.

it's not that deep of a story so that's as far as it goes

>>23018415
>and scientific accuracy is a must
Thanks for the rec. Are you sure?

I'm aware isekai and progression fantasy is a popular genre, I'm looking specifically for those that are at least as accurate as Dr.STONE. As a kid I built things such a primitive radio receiver out of a length of copper wire wound around a house, a couple transistors, a speaker, a battery and a resistor. Plenty of chemical experiments too, like generating chlorine gas with electricity and table salt. (And observing the effect of chlorine on invertebrates, heh.)

>>23018393
>What's the incentive for other people to help you?
because their lives are also made better

>>23018440
How?

>>23018447
the guy is making shit like electricity and medicine

>>23018453
Okay. I still don't understand. If I get to reap the rewards without contributing anything, based, but isn't that a commie commune? What happens when an evil anime antagonist seizes the means of production?

>>23018474
Huh? The villagers contribute labor and are paid in things like electricity and medicine. This is pure capitalism, the creation of capital. If some commie antagonist seized the means of production to distribute the goodies to himself and his allies, the goodies would just stop coming, and you couldn't steal the technology from neighboring villages since the guy is the only one with the know-how.

>>23018489
>, the creation of capital
That just sounds like bartering. Where is the capital being created? What did the villagers get paid in before he could make electricity and medicine? I still don't get how you do this without money.

>>23018510
Money is a placeholder for goods and services, retard-sama. People do things in exchange for other people doing things or giving them things of equal value. This is only hard to understand if you're a brainwashed communist.

>>23018510
>Where is the capital being created?
Electricity, medicine, other helpful machinery is literally capital that hadn't existed before. (capital, noun: material wealth.) Money just makes the process easier, and in the anime it comes in the second or third season. A diferent guy introduces the idea of money, not the protagonist, though they are allies.

>>23018519
>of equal value.
How do you determine value without money, dipshit. You need to peg your goods to services to something to be able to compare them to other things.

>>23018520
Without money your process doesn't work.
>>23018522

>>23018526
Do you not have any friends or acquiantances with whom you exchanged favors or items without money? You should make some. I want the village's storyteller to survive, this is valuable to me. To receive this value, I'm told that my labor is needed to collect plants or fuel. I exchange my labor for something I value. Why does this need money? (It doesn't.)

>>23018538
>describes communism
>Nooooo its capitalism look at all the capital that was created
Holy fucking shit.

>>23018543
Socialism, and communism in particular, is characterized by employees of the state forcing people to participate in exchanges that they do not often find to their benefit.

For example, the USSR banned regular people from buying western clothes and food by restricting their import, though CPSU members were allowed to, in Beriozka retail shops. For another example, in the USSR you couldn't freely contract with employers of your choice upon graduating from a university; rather, a factory manager from some town of bumfuck nowhere in Siberia could buy you from your dean with a coveted pair of jeans, and you'd have to move all the way there for a few years as a fresh graduate. This is not free capitalistic exchange.

The villagers and the guy participate in mutually beneficial exchanges which they are free to enter or decline. If I'm not interested in electricity or medicine, I just don't put in the labor, and nobody forces me to. This isn't in any way communism.

>>23018575
> forcing people to participate
>Participate? Nah, I guess I'll just die instead
Yup, sounds not forced to me. Also, loving the notion that every commune is the Soviet Union. What you're describing here
> exchanged favors or items without money
requires trust. What happens when rather than enjoying the living of the storyteller my ambition is to acquire wealth and become the story teller? How do I exchange these favors and items for status without money in this 100 percent certified capitalistic system?

>>23018522
>How do you determine value without money
people did it for thousands of years with trade-and-barter systems, you insufferable nigger

>>23018614
>Yup, sounds not forced to me.
Don't want medicine and abundant food? Feel free to leave and hunt your own stuff.
Actually, in the show you do have a village on the survival of the fittest style that antagonizes the MC village and plenty of the villagers went there.

>>23018614
>acquire wealth and become the story teller? How do I exchange these favors and items for status without money in this 100 percent certified capitalistic system?
You can't do that in a capitalistic system. Capitalism assumes free exchange, there are around 200 alive people in the entire world, and you're in this hypothetical a loser who couldn't gain the trust of these 200 people who have all known you and each other since birth. It's clear that you've got nothing to exchange which the other people would like you for.

>>23018620
>every interaction is a screeching haggle fest
Based. I bet it scales up like a dream.
>>23018652
> Feel free to leave
You think the USSR commies didn't have a similar feel free to leave this plane of existence policy?
>>23018662
>You can't do that in a capitalistic system
What?
>you're in this hypothetical a loser
Not until you made me one. Why are you so assblasted?
>who couldn't gain the trust of these 200 people
Everyone trusts everyone, huh? What a kumbaya existence that's totally based on the real world. No outside forces playing on people's insecurities, just one dimensional happy to help villagers.
>It's clear that you've got nothing to exchange which the other people would like you for.
What are you talking about. We're exchanging ideas right now. If it's not worth your time then what the fuck are you doing?

>>23018685
it seems you're simply making up shit to argue about and presenting it as a gotcha instead of saying anything.

>>23018703
Okay, show don't tell. I am very clearly challenging the cashless society notion as a pipedream not based on how humans behave. I am sorry you're not able to grasp that.

>>23018714
like the other anon said, cashless was a thing for thousand of years and only starts to fail on communities that have both enough size and enough societal complexity for it, which is not the case of the setting presented in the OP.

>>23018730
Which will stagnate and remain frozen in time for eternity. Got it. Thanks.

>>23018733
>it seems you're simply making up shit to argue about and presenting it as a gotcha instead of saying anything
I'm not even the anon who made this comment I'm copying, you're just that much of an obnoxious nigger.

>>23018733
>you NEED usery to progress as a society!
go choke on a foreskin, rabbi

>>23018741
Any opportunity to spam your inferiority complex. Got it. Thanks for sharing your blogpost.
>>23018742
As opposed to what a kumbaya society that operates on trust beyond a single village? Sounds real to me. Let's all holds hands and sing.

>>23018748
>yeah, but what about that thing you never said? heh, checkmate
get some bitches, dog

>>23018749
It's the only plausible inference, retard. Don't let me pigeon hole you. Speak your mind instead of whining about it.

>>23018748
>opportunity to spam your inferiority complex
Ah so that's what's forcing you to argue like a retard and try to one-up everyone. Thanks for projecting so obviously.

>>23018753
>racist doesn't connect inferiority to racism. Yeah, that checks out.

>>23018522
>How do you determine value without money
Remember when you were a kid and you traded 100 pokemon cards for a bayblade? it's like that, except with food and services.

>>23018788
I'll trade a (You) for you to read the rest of the thread. Remember, I am trusting you to do this. If you fuck me on this the fundamental linchpin of the system collapses.

>>23018809
i decline your offer

>>23018823

>>23018361
It’s like a commentary on human nature dude

>>23018310
Release That Witch is a cultivation manhwa where protag is isekai'd and uses his knowledge of science and chemistry and shit to get an upper and on all the other medieval kingdoms. As far as I recall he trains an army, builds bunkers and artillery to hold his land. Witches who are being hunted down by others he liberates and utilizes their potential as technology advances, for example the fire one is now a furnace for iron making and so on.

>>23018370
He told the illiterate people there was magic black goo they could use to power machines and their money would be backed by it

>>23018361
You haven't watched it and are basing it purely on the description of anon. The antagonist of the story thinks exactly like you, that's why he makes an army to fight the protagonist.

>>23018391
What about the part where Banksy then died and gives all of this power and wealth to his retarded kid and creates a pseudo aristocracy

>>23020075
Are we assuming the same biology as in the actual world? Then the retarded kid loses all the wealth and we are back to where we started. Gregory Clark in his 2014 book "The Son Also Rises" uses centuries of surname data in England to build an argument that there is no substantial intergenerational wealth transmission net of genetics. Since 2014 and especially starting with the watershed papers by Okbay on GWA studies of educational attainment, new genomic research on the heritability of intelligence has only strengthened Clark's argument.

Another point you might be missing is that wealth does not sit idly, it is always invested into something. In the case of generationally intelligent people, even if they are not running beneficial businesses themselves, that wealth is invested into causes that benefit all of us such as SpaceX or retail chains — while if we cashed it out and redistributed to ordinary people, it would be invested into drugs and pyramid schemes.

But mostly Clark's argument makes this a non-concern.

>>23020832
Even if they lose the wealth in their life or a just some big portion of it thats an entire generation you will have to live through with some random with all of his dads accumulated power deciding the whims of your life. We can just see examples of this in today where people develop huge business and then hand them to their kids who at best sit idly by and at worst create a worst experience for the customers by focusing on the short term and cutting costs and not innovating products. Even a lot of retail chains are like this, some rich person will own a lot of chains and just give them to their children to manage with zero percent effort, a lot of times those eventually fail.

>>23020832
>social darwinism part 2
you can really convince some people of anything

>>23020845
They lose the wealth if they are actually retarded, and the usual alternative is not better. Think in terms of incentives. When you ban people from becoming billionaires, what you are in fact banning is the creation of any business with more than a billion in expected value. So, no Intel or SpaceX or anything of the sort. Banning the transmission of wealth to retarded children — which they lose anyway — is to the parent a massive disincentive to create the wealth in the first place. Everyone is worse off.

>>23020848
No? An argument that intelligence and wealth are not substantially genetic would not convince me because it would not be true, would not be consilient with the reality I saw and everything I would have read. Perhaps you are missing that some people, unlike you, do actually read textbooks and papers and are not swayed by sleazy substanceless appeals to emotion and attempts to tar by association, such as your own "social darwinism part 2"? Some people think reality can be understood, theirs is not a reality entirely of slogans and soundbites.

>>23020866
>everything i have read
one study about surnames from 2014 is apparently enough to assuage any worries you have about there not being a proportional link between ability and wealth despite such a concept having implications for every single aspect of your life. pretty clear that you're begging the question here and just want to hurry up and bend over for the status quo. at the same time let me guess why everything is suddenly "slop" and everything is in decline, the jews and black people right?

>>23020870
>one study about surnames from 2014
You're a liar, and you lie knowingly, because clearly by singling out Okbay's papers I show awareness of the literature, meaning I have read dozens and followed it for years.
>why everything is suddenly "slop" and everything is in decline, the jews and black people right?
You're a liar. Some things are in decline, some are not. Most are not. Black people haven't much of an effect on anything. The effect of Jews is overwhelmingly beneficial.

Now, please fuck off to your English class or wherever.

>>23020885
>by citing one single study of surnames in england ive somehow implied ive done extensive research to accept that the current ruling class should be unilaterally respected and are in their "natural place"
>also i write with proper punctuation on 4chan, so im correct!
complete and utter pseud

>>23020885
>Some things are in decline, some are not. Most are not
American mortality is no longer in decline, that seems pretty important, you'd think that the best example of your ideology in action would have the best results for something as significant as lifespan.

>>23018522
You are surprisingly retarded.

>>23020910
I don't know what ideology you attribute to me, but if it's my pro-markets position, then it can't be helping that US healthcare is one of the most regulated industries, and to top it off, the real customers are insurance companies rather than patients. Besides, the US is famously weird from an economic standpoint, and in other countries more economic freedom correlates with lifespan. If it's my acknowledgment of genetic factors, then I point out that lifespan is also substantially genetic (and genetically correlated with intelligence, as a side note), and the population makeup of the US hasn't at all been static. More generally, I'm not at all ready to try and figure out to which of the thousands of US policies we must assign credit for the decline in life expectancy, and to what degree.

>>23020928
>yeah its pretty complicated so lets just assume rich people deserve whatever they say they deserve

ayyyy you guys just hate capitalism because you have no money to begin with
buy some onahole and see how much you're willing to die for israel now!

>>23020010
You're right. I read the manga.

>>23018388
>there's no reason to fight for
The Human Resource.

https://youtu.be/ePgFlPjB97k

>>23021043
go back to your containment board pseud

>>23021053
Pointing out the glaring mistake of his equation IS my board.

Everything you like I know it better than you and you know it...otherwise you would "defeat me" with it.

>>23021067
theres no defeating you because youre an autistic retard who will just post nonsense until you die

Why are you taking about economics?
Isnt it a science anime?
Im confused.

How to Invent Everything: A Survival Guide for the Stranded Time Traveler

>>23018620
Then they developed money which has also existed for thousands of years. Different, unrelated civilizations have developed money on their own. It only takes a little inductive reasoning to arrive at money.

>>23018788
Money was developed because a simple barter system does not work on large scales or between civilizations. It works until complete strangers disagree about the value of good and services.

>>23020943
Usually the same people who criticize capitalism do not even have a working definition of it.

>>23021068
Words of wisdom.

>>23021195
I wonder if that was because of some kind of fraud, this was a way you couldnt "fake make it" because it was or wasnt.

>>23018310
A bit on the pulpy side, but you might enjoy "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen".

>>23021094
It's a civilization anime. Financial technologies are also social technologies that boost prosperity. Money, sure, maybe only English majors find it difficult to understand just how cumbersome bartering is, and how wildly money slashes transaction costs. But newer and more complex financial technologies that we see in Mesopotamia and Ancient Rome, commodity markets, forward contracts, futures contracts and so on, they also help us coordinate and create more wealth than there has ever been! These financial instruments are a significant driver of the affordability of wheat, corn, or rice at any nearby store. >>23018391

https://youtu.be/0RCIdOp5GHg