/lit/ - Literature

>>23001970
>noo but the good guys need to acktually be bad and the bad guys need to acktually be good!!!!
I'm so tired of this shit

>>23001970
>"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shit, but the more she shit, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."

>>23001970
i shall not take this bait

>>23001970
Wiener, wiener wiener, wiener wiener, wiener wiener

>>23001976
>noo but the good guys need to acktually be bad and the bad guys need to acktually be good!!!!
Stories can be morally ambiguous without doing this

>>23001970
>>moral grayness
What this amounts to is every single character being a mockery of the human race
The only moral character was killed in the beginning and the rest is a competition to see who can be shittier and the moral is... humans are LE EVIL SELFISH!
Very modern indeed

>>23001970
>main character is not only perfect, but the incarnation of perfection itself
>most influential book(s) in history
How’d they do it?

I can't wait from Trump to lose again so that all these assblasted christcucks so collectively suicide themselves and stop bitching about GRRM.

>>23001995
ah yes then you get the old
>and then this happened
>and then this happened
>and then this happened
>and then this happened
>and then this happened
because there is no moral weight underpinning any actions

>>23001994
FAT
PINK
MAST

I get enough complex and grey area shit in real life. I want my fairytales simple and easy to grasp.

>>23002022
You have the mind of a toddler

>>23002060
pure cope, and you see this with all media these days. Shit writers doing one of those to things

>>23001970
You silly, the fact that one side is bad doesn't mean the other side is automatically good.
You can have all three sides (good, bad, grey) in one book. Tolkien had it, too (e.g. Boromir).

>>23001970
There are plenty of morally gray characters in LotR.

>>23001970
Grey morality is, down the road, worthless to the sustenance of the soul. It's little more than a mirror, telling you what you already knew. It's only worth is reminding you, and once you remember, you can safely set it aside and aspire to greater heights.

>>23002002
They literally had to force people to read it.

>>23002410
>>23001970
Isn't frodo the only morally pure character in LOTR? Hence why he's the only one who can bear the ring without it corrupting him?

>>23002527
Wat? Reading it without a proper education was a crime.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-christians-were-denied-access-to-their-bible-for-1000-years_b_3303545

>>23002546
Hmm I didn't know that. Then I guess it's influential because they forced people to go to church every week, where they listened to someone preach about it.

>>23001970
Literally the first time Sam sees war he reflects on the tragedy of it and how the other side are also just regular men dying far away from home for a cause they may not understand or care for.
The truth is Tolkien has all those things and it treats them in a far more interesting way than "lol good guy is bad guy now omg so mature and deep". I have never read this game of thrones faggotry but I am 100% confident its trash.

>>23002560
>I am completely uninformed on the subject, but let me state my opinion confidently anyway

>>23002452
Moral grayness as it's portrayed by G.R.R. Martin is kinda boring
>what if basically everyone is really a power-hungry psychopath deep inside?
However, I find that moral ambiguity can also be used in very interesting ways that can imo provide sustenance for the soul: for example, I find stories about morally questionable characters genuinely looking for redemption very moving.
Inb4 "The Song of Ice and Fire books also have examples of this trope": yeah, those examples are also kinda boring, although, still much more interesting than all the supposedly heroic characters in those books who kill indiscriminately and without remorse (I've read books 1-3)

>>23002600
>what if basically everyone is really a power-hungry psychopath deep inside?
this is true of >99% of people

>>23002001
Pleddit likes it because they are NPCs with no merit so they want to read about NPCs with no merit.

>>23001970
Epic fantasy written for young adults vs. PENISPENISPENISNETFLIXDEALIQUIT

>>23002605
No, actually it's just you and a few other people.

>>23002001
Jon Snow was a very moral character. So was his boy there, the fat one.

>>23002630
No, you're actually very wrong. For reference, see: all of human history.

>>23002622
>PENISPENISPENISNETFLIXDEALIQUIT
bit reductionist, no?

>>23002639
Well all of human history shows us 99.999% of people just want to be left alone are are forgotten... not power hungry

>>23002639
Sure, the handful of psychos drive human history (not you, but some of the others.) But you're still a tiny, tiny minority.

>>23002646
>>23002649
you're painfully naive

>>23002657
Nope. Most people are normalfags, they just want to be left alone and do their peasant work in peace.

>>23002661
Wrong. The lust for power is an innate human drive, and history is shaped by it. You are dumb.

>>23002669
put down the marvel comics and step away from the computer.
You talk like you have never left your mothers basement.

>>23002605
Yeah I'm not saying it's untrue, it's just that it's hard to relate to characters that have no empathy or self-reflection. It also makes for rather thematically uninteresting prose as there are no moral dilemmas for those kind of people, and little to no character development with those kind of characters. On the other hand, I can easily relate to characters who do bad things but that have an interesting psychological journey coming to terms with their actions and perhaps making amends by the end.

Also, I don't think that being power-hungry is inherently evil, but it's the power hungry people that have no consideration for others or any kind of self-reflection that I find very unsympathetic. Its funny, those types of people always think of themselves as so good and generous .

>>23002676
>le ebin strawman
next time you can just say "you're right, I'm a retard"

>>23002669
Go actually spend some time with normalfags in their normalfag jobs and see if you see any "lust for power" going on there. If anything I'd say most people are masochists who sort of enjoy being pushed around by people like you.

>>23002683
Calm yourself.
Your argument has already been dismantled.

>>23002680
>it's hard to relate to characters that have no empathy or self-reflection
the sales numbers disagree with you

>>23002684
I do, and they do. Even if their aims are limited, they still wants what is their neighbors.
>>23002687
"you read marvel comics and live in your mother's basement" is not dismantling an argument, you retarded fucking faggot. you lost. any further replies from you will be considered another concession.

>>23002694
>I do, and they do. Even if their aims are limited, they still wants what is their neighbors.
I've met a few psychos who are like that, most people don't have it in them though.

>>23001970
All of Tolkien's stories are about human failings and weaknesses. Villains are tragic, and sometimes heroes are too. Also, Tolkien explicitly (though not exclusively) inspired GRRM, and I think some of GRRM's best moments in ASOIAF have a similar tone to Tolkien's writings.

>>23002540
>Isn't frodo the only morally pure character in LOTR? Hence why he's the only one who can bear the ring without it corrupting him?
Frodo's not morally pure either, but he's the ringbearer because he's one of the most noble living beings. The ring does corrupt and influence him, which is why he doesn't actually destroy the ring at Mount Doom.

>>23002600
>what if basically everyone is really a power-hungry psychopath deep inside?
Characters are rarely psychopaths (except for Ramsey Bolton), but they're heavily flawed. Tywin has a massive inferiority complex that he hides through brutality, the northern lords are vengeful and petty, the ironborn refuse to progress, and the Tyrells crave honor. So on and so on.
Rather than looking for power, what characterizes the villainous characters (Tywin, the Freys, the Yunkai) is their pride and arrogance; they care more about their egos than their power. Conversely, the heroes (the Starks, Davos, somewhat Dany) care more about the world itself and thus actually care about power because they want to have an effect on the world.

>>23002694
Describe to me in detail how the 99.999% of people, the peasants, used their "lust for power" and "innate human drive" to "to shape history" and then promptly be forgotten. I'll wait.
lmao retard.

>>23002688
They're not bad books, just sort of boring. And most people aren't looking for moral or philosophical reflection in a novel, but for an "exciting" plot, full of twists and turns; after all, most people wouldn't find the works of Tolstoy or Checkov very interesting. And perhaps the characters of G.R.R Martin books are interesting in a way, they just don't meet my criteria for interesting characters (although I sort of like Tyrion, because he feels so bad about his father not liking him lol) So maybe I'm just a moralfag and a christcuck, I'm not a believer, but I used to be so there's probably some residue from that

>>23001970
If your IQ was higher, you'd realize how completely you've embarrassed yourself with this thread, OP. I'd say ignorance is bliss, but your ignorance leaves you drinking at the trough. You'll never know just how completely shut out of higher things you really are.

>>23002709
>what is The Roman Empire
you lost

>>23002766
>what is The Roman Empire
>you lost
99.999% of which were peasants that just wanted to be left alone.
So you obviously concede your moronic position.

>>23002557
the early christians had to hide from persecution in basements and caves nigga what are you going on about
you act like they were killing people for not going to church

>>23002782
>99.999% of which were peasants that just wanted to be left alone.
>source: it fits my argument
nah you're wrong, cope and seethe about it

>>23002790
Then why do we not have any records of these "world shapers lusting for power"

>>23002794
the same reason why will there be no record of your retarded faggot ass when you die. almost everyone is forgotten by history, you nigger.

>>23002060
And you have the mind of an angsty, edgy teenager who thinks he is really clever saying that Satan is akhtsully the good guy.
You can be "morally ambiguous" in a character study not a fantasy epic

>>23002815
So your evidence is "it came to me in a dream"
You dismantled yourself.

>>23001987

>>23002818
Silence, nigger.

>>23001987
Disease is truly a bastard

>>23002976

>>23001970
Morally grey is just how the morally black self identifies

>>23001987
Women shouldn’t poop, this is the biggest faux paux in literature

>>23001987
The only things in his work that is well described is when people are eating or shitting. When he starts rambling on for several paragraphs describing some lavish banquet or the details of the explosive diarrhea later on, I almost feel like I'm there. This is because the guy is a lardass and thus an expert on these subjects. You can really tell when someone writes about something they love, which in GRRMs case is eating and shitting.

>>23003009
I didn't ask about the state of your sex life.

>>23002022
that's literally every fucking single book you piece of fuck

>>23003013
Suuuuure because all the people who considers themselves "morally white" are actually so.

>>23001995
Nah but if it turns out the good guy is a bad guy then the bad guy must appear as if he was a good guy all along.

>>23001976
the mere concept of a "bad guy" and a "good guy" both in fiction and in real life is extremely simplistic and reductive
your child-like reasoning proves to me how wrong you are
hope you someday realize that good and evil are spooks

>>23002571
I know the OP is wrong on LOTR because I have actually read it. I know game of thrones is shit because you like it.

>>23003304
>still a moralfag

The worst kind, in fact.

>>23002022
What stories are you reading where there isn't a sequence of events?

GRRM’s characters aren’t complex either but at least with Tolkien it is done intentionally.

>>23003315
bitch i've masturbated to de sade's writing, calling me a moralfag is absurd

>>23003319
>if the chef intentionally made a shit dish then it's enjoyable
???

>>23003314
>let me to continue to argue from a position of ignorance
>I am very smart
Shut the fuck up, nigger.

>>23003286
who is this bitch looking nigga?

>>23003326

>>23003329
First of all, never wrote it was enjoyable. I’m not fond of the Tolkienfag infestation on this board in recent months.

However, many of Tolkien’s characters (Aragorn, Legolas) are intentionally heroic archetypes with little characterisation. GRRM actively set out to create complex characters but failed. That’s why it’s less egregious.

>>23001970
both gandalf and aragon know theyre somewhat evil, thats why frodo had to take the ring.

heck... bilbo is seen becoming corrupted

given, sauron is 100% evil for seemingly no reason
but saruman was once good but fear made him bad

>>23003367
>many of Tolkien’s characters (Aragorn, Legolas) are intentionally heroic archetypes with little characterisation
That's because they're not the heroes. The main characters are the hobbits, and that's why almost all of the story is told through their POVs.
>GRRM actively set out to create complex characters but failed
GRRM's real problem is that he wrote too many characters. It's great for worldbuilding, but nearly impossible to write a coherent story with a dramatis personae the length of any other book's chapter.

>>23003367
Well, put that way, I don't know if I agree or not, now I just want to know your opinion.
Are you saying that an accomplished cartoon is better than a failed attempt at portraying a realistic character?

>>23003375
Nah, GRRM mistake was not writing too many characters, he could handle them all as he showed in the third book. He's just unable to follow a strict plan, he changes and improvises fucking everything.
Something something he's a "gardener", according to him. This amount of chaos is probably what got him in the end.

>>23003385
>he could handle them all as he showed in the third book
The third book is the last one that was well under control. Feast and Dance introduced far too many new characters while trying to manage old ones. It's one of the reasons those books took so much longer to write compared to the first three books.

>>23003375
>worldbuilding
Go away.

>>23003377
I’m saying that Tolkien and GRRM tried to accomplish different things. Tolkien wanted to create the illusion of myth and the feeling of a lost epic, while GRRM is essentially writing a soap opera in a “fantasy” setting.

>>23003396
>"NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T HAVE A COHERENT SETTING, MAKING FICTIONAL WORLDS THAT ARE INTERESTING IS LIKE AUTISTIC"
No, you go away.

>>23001987
This is actually has a purpose and works though, when you consider the context that she's basically been treated like a god for 4 books. Nothing brings a character back down to earth quite like explosive diarrhea.

>>23003392
the 3rd is actually the sloppiest, you're just distracted by a lot of big things happening that you don't notice it
the 4th and 5th are very tight, but not a lot of progress is made as a result

>>23003427
Maybe I misspoke by "under control," since I haven't read them in a while. The first 3 books have a problem where they're a pseudo-trilogy, and so Storm is a pseudo-finale. That means it leaves a lot of loose ends open but closes a lot of others.
Feast and Dance do put a lot of effort into establishing themselves (because they're effectively the start of a Part 2 or a second "trilogy"), but we can see by the delay of Winds that the larger casts are a problem. In the show, they even cut characters and that results in the story diverging entirely from the books.

>>23003427
>>23003392
in any case, my point is that GRRM got his shit fucked not because of having too many characters, but because he's just unable to stick to a plan, to follow a basic plot structure.
He probably has devised more than like 20 different endings for the series throughout the books, with that in mind, it's no surprise he just don't even fucking know what to do anymore.
I once heard he admitted to a publisher he deeply regrets killing a character and that now he doesn't know what to do with that plotline. That clearly is Quentyn Martell IMO

>>23001970
Plenty of ancient literature contains moral ambiguity. I don't know where this meme came from that all old and ancient literature is like LOTR
In the Iliad for example i don't find the enemy is portrayed as evil in any way
Likewise i just read the debate between Odysseus and Ajax based on the Iliad and the discussion struck me as amoral--almost entirety of the discuscion was about matters of reputation and military strategy. With Odysseus arguing that his underhanded activities are justified because they produce positive results
Even in the bible which usually does tend towards moral simplicity, you have trickster characters like Jacob

>>23003450
quentyn's death can easily be retconned as a fakeout, though
most fans seem to think he was probably referring to kevan lannister with that

>>23001970
martin the fat turd literally falls into the exact same trope, literally one house is the good underdog and one house is the baddy machivellians

>>23002557
Read some history of religion you dumb fuck before trying to comment on something you know nothing about
Christianity spread by attaching itself to the biggest empire in the world, and because its teachings were easily synthesized with monistic and neoplatonic philosophy that was popular among the Roman elite

>One side is good, the other is evil.
Yes.

>>23003470
Lmao are you sure you read the book?
House Lannister aren't villains, you not only have Tyrion going around, the book several times makes it clear that they just want the best for their family.
Was Tywin a bad guy? Why? Because he killed political opponents and was ruthless? That's not a cartoon villain, that's an accurate portrayal of a medieval statesman.

>>23003528
And they had mf'in' Charlie Dance play him, excellently. One of the best parts of the show IMO.

>>23003528
In the context of the comparative relationship between the houses of Stark and Lannister it is entirely accurate and correct to define them as loyal good guys and machiavellien bad guys

>>23003474
Actually jews took over Rome the exact same way they took over Germany, Russia and the US later on. It's their modus operandi, infiltrate and coopt the biggest empire around.

>>23003577
>it is entirely accurate and correct to define them as loyal good guys and machiavellien bad guys
Maybe if you have a room temperature IQ.
That is an extremely reductive take, and iirc the book also mentions several times of stark soldiers becoming bandits and killing people, which is definitively not something you would see in a tolkien book, but something that objectively happened IRL.

>>23003583
sorry but that was debunked by snopes

>>23003619
Rebunked by Cicero.

>>23003623
From Skyrim?

>>23003610
Well, it's true in the context of his world. Yes, everyone is evil and backstabbing and have explosive diarrhea constantly, but obviously the Stark people are the good guys of the bunch.

>>23001970
Tolkien had more moral greyness than all 5 books of ASoIaF clmbined. People just suck at reading with comprehension.

Tolkien:
>Hmn what should I call this morally gray character. Ah yes, Gandalf the Gray. But he does redeem himself. Better rename him Gandalf the White after.

>>23004987
>all the carefully crafted extra details that refine and deepen our understanding of this imaginary world REALLY only muddle and distance his world from reality
sure buddy whatever you say

>Come, my loyal bannermen! Surely these good men of House Evilton, Lords of the Spookyfort and Wardens of the Dreadlands, shall never betray me!
>What was that? Ah yes, "Our knives are sharp", the noble words of a House that would NEVER betray anyone

>>23004982
he was gray because odins color is gray. him being reborn as 'the white' represents odin being incorporated into early christianity, while jews (saruman) were removed from their place as the chosen for becoming corrupted. gandalf the grey doesnt have grey morality, hes just a bit distracted and busy with a billion quests, which is again characteristic of odins flaws; so obsessed with ragnarok and the coming doom of the gods that he often ignores things right under his nose. gandalf the white isnt morally better than the grey, hes just more action-oriented, less obsessed with ancient lore and side-quest completion and more with the matters at hand, like saving middle earth

>>23005050
Impossible, they are allied with the good guys, aka the starks, they could never be bad guys.

>>23004987
>writing is a destilation processs
>hurr durr keep it simple stupid

>>23002452
Well said.

>>23002452
I guess that reading history is also useless to the soul then since IRL there's no such a thing as idealistic morality.
Like lmao who the fuck cares if you don't like it? Other people find it interesting and that's validating in itself.

>>23001976
>>23002001
Meanwhile in real life: the church diddling kids
Real life is grey, deal with it. There's no such thing as objective mortality. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it real or immune to criticism.

>>23001970
>enjoying moral grayness
the only people who enjoy that kind of pretentious shit are pseudo-intellectuals trying to appear "smarter" than they actually are, 12 year olds trying to be "deep" and sociopaths who want to normalize/project their psychosis.

so which one are you OP?

>>23001976
stick to your animes kid

>>23005795
/thread

>>23003316
>>23003271
>>23005794
>>23005877
This thread is embarrassing, proof /lit/ doesn't read.

>>23001970
Draft dodging is good though

>>23001995
True moral ambiguity is cowardly. If the author has nothing to claim, he should not be publishing the work. Art shouldn’t generally be truly didactic, but a lack of moral clarity isn’t an inherently admirable trait and is usually a failure of creativity or character on the behalf of the author

>>23001970
>What was Aragorn's tax policy, hehe I'm so clever
>The Lannisters are le mega rich because.... their main city is based on top of a gold mine
Bravo, so brave

>>23002605
This is patently false

>>23002657
You are painfully retarded

>>23003405
It is autistic, and it is for children

>>23005794
Embarrassing middle schooler take

>>23005795
what exactly are you arguing here? that all books that contain morally grey characters are bad?

who’s got the real master plan? which one has made more progress so far?

>>23001970
Pathetic to even mention some glorified gurps campaign books in the same sentence as Tolken. In 100 years the fat hack will not even be around in meme format and Tolkien work will endure.

>>23005925
A dynasty is... rich because of a natural resource? woah

>One side's bad, other side's good.
It always has been.

>>23001970
Talk to me when GRRM can write a book without randomly deciding to set it in the least interesting time and place in his world building, only to then fuck up his own world building and narrative rules anyway.

Serious why was Tywin literally a teleporting wizard who got to decide how societal and cultural rules worked for the entire continent for like 3+ books. I don't care that he was winning until somebody finally got through his plot armor I care that he's nothing but a pile of plotholes and asspulls prior to then which is a problem when he's a key motivator behind the plot being what it is.

>>23003368
>sauron is 100% evil for seemingly no reason
No Sauron isn't even 100% evil. His motivation is to take over Middle-Earth in order to make it better under his control. He thinks he's doing the right thing, to him the ends justifies the means, but he's a dictator.

>>23003474
Well strictly speaking the fall of Rome is a multicomponent problem but it largely stems, as in the root cause of the fall not what facilitated that root cause to become unmanageable, was the legitimization of divided loyalties and secular power in the form of the whole "multiple emperors" gig, which the Church ruthlessly abused to grow in strength and parasitize the empire, but they were hardly the only ones to do it.

Christianity, beyond doing what a lot of other faggots were doing anyway, mainly contributes by inducing religious strife and heavily facilitating the decay of the roman imperialization system. Prior, new tribes having weird gods was entirely normal and their barbarian cultures would at most live on as trappings in a region attached to the larger Rome which would be developed and enriched. Christianity like Judaism before it calmed the fuck down by getting its ass beat for several thousand years, and like how most of Islam still is now however was always pretty blood hungry for infidels and that caused problems with assimilation, combined with the legitimization of divided loyalties [If Eastern Empire and Western Empire, why not the Church? If the Church, why not hinterlands and tribal priest?] and the size of the empire causing a disconnect between the actually important for making faggot senators understand shit triumphs and such resulting in a shift to an exploitative rather than assimilationist model of expansion, and Rome starts to wither and die.

>>23006514
>dictators are... LE BAD!
real groundbreaking stuff

>>23003528
Tywin's a villain because he's an incompetent dumbfuck who only survived as long as he did because he could magically dictate if the rules of westeros's law and culture applied to him or not and he had a gorillion dollars. In any well written book even if he got a pass on his absurdly stupid backstory he'd have been the kind of fucking buffoon brute who dies at the end of the first novel before the actually dangerous and capable villains show up. He spends more time sniveling about his family pride and legacy trying to improve it and picking fights for stupid fucking reasons while thinking he's some kind of big brained game player when even a stupid bitch like Cersei was able to keep him in the dark for fucking years about what she was doing because he was a fucking idiot.

>>23005050
When you put it like that it almost makes sense that Tywin was able to psychically intuit that the Greyjoys would randomly do the stupidest thing possible for no reason and loosen things enough for Bolton and Frey to randomly decide they definitely had to betray the Starks and would 100% get away with it.

Presumably he gave them his get out of jail free card he used back during the whole Castamere debacle.

>>23001976
With how many people in the world that seem to think its a good vs evil deal I think we need more

>>23006546
Then go read the bible, pleb.

>>23006522
At the time it actually was pretty new. Fascism, Communism, and the rest of the socialist fuckfuck circuses hadn't really had much time to work yet.

>>23001976
>>23001995
>>23002001
>>23002452
>/lit/ is a manichean board now
Retards. "Moral greyness" matters especially in literature involving politics (like Tolkien and GRRM's books do) because POLITICS IS FUCKING BRUTAL.

If you're a leader you have to make tough, practical decisions. Being totally humanistic only gets you run over. Have you cunts ever read Machiavelli?

A good leader has to be ruthless because you have to know that at the end of the day they're going to put aside humanistic concerns when the cold hard reality of the situation calls for it. ESPECIALLY in a time of war, which Tolkien's books are all about.

You retards should go watch Naruto or some shit.

>>23006535
>tywin is a villain because he's rich
>something something he's stupid therefore he's a villain (???)
>in an actual story he would be replaced with an actual villain, be hes an actual villain
leftards never sease to make me cringe, wtf is this schizopost even?'

>>23006594
>You retards should go watch Naruto or some shit.
Naruto is defined by moral greyness though? Virtually all of the major antagonists are mirrors and foils to Naruto, who more often than not seek to achieve peace in a war torn world with rampant usage of child soldiers through means the protagonist finds unacceptable. A consistent theme in the narrative is the threat of Naruto's becoming as corrupted and evil as his enemies, and the idea that the great capacity for love brings with it the possibility of its being transformed into hatred. Have you actually read it lmao?

>>23006843
Lemme rephrase it.

Tywin is a villain because he's a vicious idiot who exists pretty much purely to create and facilitate conflict by being an immoral jackass who picks fights he doesn't have to for reasons that barely make sense,, and he's a badly written one because he's unbelievably stupid for someone who magically has his reputation and influence in the way that he does by the start of canon

>>23006865
Ye I watched Naruto when I was a kid and don’t remember shit from it. My example may have been poorly chosen but the insult was: watch some baby shit

>>23005794
>real life is grey
and
>there's no such thing as objective morality
have nothing to do with one another. But more importantly of course real life is gray. The grayness allows for stories of moral perseverance and heroism. Stories that show the dark side of humanity are not inherently bad, but neither are stories of greatness. Reddit NPCs will eternally hate on stories with an unambiguous hero because they have no trace of heroism in themselves, and feel it to be too remote from them.

>>23006876
Tywin has no motives? What about becoming king of westeros, which he fucking achieves in practice? What about protecting his family and securing his lineage?
asoiaf i esccencially ya conflict of interests between medieval houses, and that's it, there's no goodies and baddies. Also I don't thik he's as stupid as you think he is, Cersei on the other hand, yeah, fucking crazy bitch.

>>23006520
That's really interesting anon, appreciate the effort post

>>23006096
Based and Saud pilled

>>23006899
>watch some baby shit
"Moral greyness" describes all of that baby shit, the end product is ALWAYS bland drivel that isn't worth reading (or in your case of Naruto, watching) again

The most realistic stories are when good isn’t perfect at being good and evil isn’t perfect at being evil.

>>23007075
The fall of Rome is pretty complicated so when I get the chance I enjoy explaining the fact that it's really a multitude of factors with most of the memes having *some* truth to them. But it really does boil down to "Setting it up so that people had the idea that you could be loyal to Rome but like, only a part of rome over the rest of it really fucking backfired" along with inventing what faggots call colonialism [a degenerated, parasitic form of imperialism] due to human monkey brains being shit at understanding numbers without shinies [Triumphs marching riches back through Rome itself helped the faggots back home understand how the riches were pouring in from the new conquests better than just being told because they got to look at it, so they were less prone to being greedy faggots that got lazy and just sat around jerking themselves off. More complicated than that but this is the shorthand], lead poisoning, and religious strife. Those are basically the 4 pillars of why Rome fell, but the moment you could say you were loyal to the Eastern Empire or the Western Empire openly and legitimately before the empire as a whole is the root of the problem because it opened up a huge can of worms

>>23007056
>What about protecting his family and securing his lineage?
That motive only holds superficially. If Tywin really cared about his family, he wouldn't abuse Tyrion or raise Cersei and Jaime into what they became. Even right before he dies, Tywin is a deeply flawed man coping over his father's legacy, who wants others to see him as a strong and great man yet is neither of those.

He's not incompetent, but is not great either. He's much like Edward I, who clearly inspired Tywin's character.

>>23001970
>>inb4 hurr durr le tolkien fought in the war while grrm was le draft dodger
Didn't Tolkien just play hookie for most of it?

>>23003484
The Sun being a giant nuclear fusion reactor is a myth.

>>23007326
I'd argue he's incompetent. If he was smart, he'd have not had Cersei and Jaime give him the run around and would have used his flagrant disregard for societal conventions to basically just cut them off [married to a king and a kingsguard respectively, his job is already fucking done there if he doesn't obsess over it], had Tyrion fuck one male heir into a woman or done it himself, and then just moved the fuck on rather than the stupid shit he does.

>>23007417
>dad gets taken advantage of by uppity vassals
>seething begins
>never recovers
Was Tytos Lannister really as incompetent as Tywin claimed him to be or was that the seething coloring his view?

>>23007453
His seething. Tytos pretty clearly realized that money meant literally nothing to the Lannisters and slowly absorbing a potentially troublesome vassal was probably the way to go without breaking the King's Peace.

Tywin pretty clearly holds grudges and has like zero regard for anything he doesn't like, and we see in canon that he more or less categorizes everyone regardless of the truth of the matter as either like him, but stupider, a loyal tool, or a naive idiot 99% of the time and not being the second kind of person was a suicidal idea unless he wanted you alive or he couldn't reach you, which Maester Beldon doesn't qualify as.

Honest to god, Ellyn Reyne could have been a pre-series Sansa level naive bimbo and Tywin would have presumed she was a power hungry bitch just for having some success in life at his perceived expense. This is a man who wasn't able to figure out his favorite children were fucking in his own house for like a decade.

>>23001970
You made this thread out of butthurt from Martin’s retard blogposts in his defense.

>>23006876
>picks fights he doesn't have to for reasons that barely make sense
Huh? He "picks a fight" because his son got kidnapped, and even his odious little midge son getting kidnapped is a massive affront to his pride and reputation. What about this doesn't make sense?

>le wojak
frodo and gollum are literally the human heart in conflict with itself. grimdark nigger.

>>23001970
GRRM bases his self worth as an author on how many votes he has changed (to democrat), which he is worried is none.

>>23007620
>Cynicismus Maximus is shocked his writings fail to inspire
ahahahahahahahahahah

>>23007702
He said "change", not "inspire", you know, to change things like perspective.
A cynical book can change your worldview, for example, if you are a retard who for some reason enjoys reading idealized versions of the world that do not actually apply to anything aside from fantasy and myth.

>>23007795
Not really want to get into a semantic argument but I reckon that the catalyst for inner change is a desire to better oneself, and without the inspiration to do so no amount of logic or reason any argument has is sufficient.

>>23007816
Woah... The world is... LE BAD!?!?! omg time to vote for mass castrations and the racial displacement of my people!!! Jewish kritocracy LARPing as democracy is soooooo much better than feudal aristocratic monarchies!

>>23007840
>reading comprehension

>>23007620
if I told him that his writings inspired me to be more racist, do you think that would cheer him up?

>>23007620
How can a guy that writes so much about machiavellian shit have such a baby tier view of contemporary politics?

>>23007620
>democracy is under threat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJ1JKMcGM4
gee I wonder why
maybe it's the jews and shabbos goyim

>>23001970
based
>>23001976
cringe

Fat fuckin faggots turn off CNN and write

>>23005794
In the same Church you do get popes and certain figures trying to stop it.
Corruption=/=everyone within said church is evil.

>>23009113
>write
Why? No one reads anymore.