/lit/ - Literature

>>22997780
I don’t get what’s so great about traveling either. I’d rather be reading a book.

>>22997784
Most great books wouldn't have been good if it weren't for travel

>>22997792
Prove it.

>>22997780
>Nabokov thought anyone who liked his books was "jejune"
Source?

>>22997784
Traveling is for faggots who have zero imagination. Those people who find it hard to imagine or visualize when reading. Those people who think foreigners are significantly different human beings from them. And those who think that third worlders who constantly smile at white people and greet them are friendly instead of desperate, and that the japanese who bow and act politely are not putting up a facade to avoid societal shaming.

Schopenhauer really thought he was gonna make people read Kant who hadn't

>>22997840
>cynical misanthrope is averse to new exciting experiences
Quelle surprise!

>>22997780
Stockhausen thought 9/11 was a work of art

>>22997780
>>Evola was a homosexual
?

>>22997780
>>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept
probably because it's an expression of cultural rootlessness

>>22997857
Traveling is not a prerequisite for excitement unimaginative faggot. I could drink a beer and be excited for a tenth the price of traveling and confirming some already well known fact about some trendy country that you got to know because it appeared on your tiktok feed instead of having already read about it in your teenage years like every other imaginative intelligent person.

>>22997857
By
>new experiences
you of course mean "new devilries". No thank you.
Does nobody know anymore that you're supposed to suffer, not enjoy life? Read Bloy

>>22997780
>>22997864
I'm gonna make chorus.

>>22997861
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1basERlxOJU

>>22997840
You could apply your argument to books: 'All books are just cope, they're the same plot recycled over and over, they don't teach you anything real.'

If someone said that about literature, you would rightly judge that they had no curiosity or sensitivity.

Obviously literature to the non-reader is going to seem like a bunch of whiny Dostoevsky-narrator stereotypes in a bunch of 19th-century houses with nothing going on; and obviously travel to the non-traveller is going to seem like purely an affair of smug Americans travelling through a world of grinning Africans and bowing Japanese while taking meaningless photos of palm trees and pyramids.

In both cases you need imagination to sense that there's something more beyond that, and you need imagination to fully immerse yourself in the experience while it's happening.

And whether you're reading or travelling the experience will also end up feeding and enhancing your imagination in turn. A good book or a good journey will make you realise how limited your imagination was before you began it, and how much it has grown since then.

Just my two cents.

>>22997792
Name ten great (fiction) books that wouldn't have been written/would be worse had the author stayed in his birth country.

>>22997944
Book of Disquiet

>>22997921
What i am saying because you don't seem to get it is that once you are an adult, you should have interacted with enough characters to understand that people all over the world are not very different, that should occur to you if you are sufficiently smart and imaginative. It shouldn't take 10k and a ticket to the end of the world to understand basic human behaviour. You could travel for food and geography, not for the novelty of pretentious people who are in plenty supply back in your country and have been countlessly written about in most of the books in most libraries.

>>22997780
>being a homosexual
>an opinion

>>22997784
having travelled to exotic countries is a good way of impressing ladies
and that's the only justification i can think of for travelling

>>22997944
Moby Dick, most of Conrad, most of Kipling, most of Henry James, all the foreign novels of DH Lawrence, much of Hemingway, early Wyndham Lewis.

>>22998006
I'm not the same guy, but... Herodotus, Casanova, Flaubert's Salaambo & St. Antony, Goethe's Italian Journey, Shelley, Byron

>>22997784
You can do both you know.This morning I visited the Chilean altiplano. Saw some geysers and flamingos and all around great views. Now I'm in my guest house and I'm gonna continue rereading War and Peace before I go to bed.

>>22997874
Yeah, this is definitely not coping. Have fun finding Turin at the bottom of your glass.

>>22998097
I am not trying to find him, you are. I am relaxing with my beer, while you seethe about not being able to travel to meet other similarly mediocre people like yourself who will somehow give you enlightenment, you are trying to justify running away from your problems and you don''t even have the self awareness, intellect or imagination to admit this to yourself.

>>22997861
He was too based for this world

>>22998124
>why would i experience the world when i can just drink alone in my basement
what a weird way to justify being boring

>>22997998
>having travelled to exotic countries is a good way of impressing ladies
>and that's the only justification i can think of for travelling
That's it. Status signalling. Long gone are the days of the Grand Voyage.
Some even get offended when people the other side of the world have different values and mores than they. A few of these travellers get infinitelly surprised that not everyone is an american.
They see themselves as the ultimate guardians of reality. They want everywhere to be a Mccountry.
Other places have their problems too, but the aforementioned are the absolute champions and pushers of their own incountry mono-perspective, ironically. Don't get me wrong. They want every single culture to survive, but only in a condition of zoo. Everything authentic is dumbed down, disauthorized, meant only fit to be in a museum.
The grass they want us to touch is synthetic, after all.

>>22997944
Salammbo, Gustave Flaubert.

>>22998620
>They want everywhere to be a Mccountry.
There's a McDonalds in the Egyptian pyramids now to please anglo tourists. Fucking gross.

>>22998084
The thing about travelling that helps change your worldview is talking to foreigners and learning about history, not just le pretty views. That's passive tourism.

>>22997780
Socrates/Wittgenstein dichotomy.

I travel all of the time just to witness the Earth and to get away from everything.
There's nothing like reading a good book in a good location far away from the shit in the world.
I think some of you need to get out more

>>22997780
>>Evola was a homosexual
No he wasn't
>also
>evola
>favourite thinker
Fuck off chud

>>22997780
What's the context behind the Nabokov thing because that is the most retardedly smug thing I have ever heard

>>22998637
kek i don't believe it

>>22997874
What does the Sistene Chapel smell like?

>>22998124
>I could drink a beer and be excited
>relaxing with my beer
oops

>>22997780
Based Scruton

>>22997998
If only I could afford it. That’s another strike against me being that I’m short and autistic and can’t drive or own a gun

>>22998637
Owned

>>22998642
Good thing mine is never gonna change

>>22997780
>>22997784
>>22997792
>>22997812
>>22997815
>>22997840
>>22997848
>>22997857
>>22997861
>>22997864
>>22997870
>>22997874
>>22997876
>>22997877
>>22997890
>>22997921
>>22997944
>>22997951
>>22997972
>>22997989
>>22997998
>>22998006
>>22998037
>>22998084
>>22998097
>>22998124
>>22998214
>>22998241
>>22998620
>>22998631
>>22998637
>>22998642
>>22998650
>>22998653
>>22998665
>>22998693
>>22998719
>>22998845
>>22998852
>>22998921
>>22998931
>>22998936
This post is the product of a tranny discord where a bunch of trannys sit around and talk about making up subversive posts like this. Don't worry tho, ya boi is a double agent ;)

>>22999352
Keep us posted, Agent Smith.

>>22999352
Post a screenshot or literally just uninstall the browser

>>22999361

>>22997972
You are retarded

>>22999390
If you had met enough people in your own country and had an imaginative mind, you would have noticed the futility of arguing with me, but you want to travel in order to delude yourself into thinking that certain people are fundamentally different from those who you have grown up around. You are like a retarded romantic who still believes in this day and age and with all the info floating around that there's some innocent woman waiting for them and that once you find them, it will solve all your problems, problems that you keep running away from because you have refused to grow up.

>>22997784
I don't think there's anything wrong with traveling but it's crazy to see how little people appreciate the weather/architecture/people of the places they are actually in. It's like people can't see the beauty in human places unless someone explicitly contextualizes it for them first.

>>22997792
Shakespeare never left England

>>22999668
>You are like a retarded romantic who still believes in this day and age and with all the info floating around that there's some innocent woman waiting for them and that once you find them, it will solve all your problems, problems that you keep running away from because you have refused to grow up.
nta but obvious projection

>>22997780
Tolstoy’s hatred of Shakespeare was petty arrogance

>>22997780
Nabokov didn’t like music. He complained about music as if it was just irritating noise. What a fucking dork

>>22999685
I am going to die because you have proven my projection, save me by procuring some bar wench anon, for I cannot bear the thought of a disagreement btn us

>>22999700
There's no shame, it's a universal belief among young men inoculated in us through our culture.

>>22998637
Tourism is a bigger globohomo force than any NGO.

>>22997784
Scruton is funny; I kind of get it. Travel is a form of escapism, which; some people can have serious problems with.

From there however, i'm at a loss. Escapism is a bit like respiration really; you need to keep moving to get anything productive done to begin with.

>>22997780
>>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept
Interesting, where and how did he argue this?
>>22997784
>>22997840
I'm inclined to agree with this the older I get. I just look at the average traveler or tourist and lose all interest in participating. Beautiful cities are ruined by hordes of these sheep and by stores, museums, other institutions, activities, etc. pandering to tourism, completely shafting the locals. I've never liked traveling, but now I can see why.

>>22999352

>>23000007
>Interesting, where and how did he argue this?
I don't 100% remember, but either in I Drink Therefore I Am or Sould of the World

The basis of his argument is that the global (travel) removes you from the local.

>>23000020
Should have been 'Soul of the World', of course.

>>22997780
I don't have anything against traveling as such but there is a reason spiritual people typically stay in a restricted perimeter.
>All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.
Even without going to those lengths I am surprised by the type of travel. I've met several roastoids that went to some far away shitholes when they had never set foot on the nice small town three valleys over. Many such cases.

>>23000020
>>23000022
Thanks.

bump

>>22997792
Who cares? I’m reading the book not writing it.

>>22997784
It used to be a lot more interesting in a pre-globalized world. Also most travellers of yore, unlike modern ones, didn't just jump from metropolis to metropolis (which are pretty much all the same wherever you might be aside from the language spoken, there's no real difference between New York, Beijing, Paris, or Tokyo anymore) but made a conscious effort to visit more out of the way locations as well.

>live in the 0.00001% of human existence where it's possible to travel the entire planet for a relatively small cost at lightning speed
>don't take advantage of it
I was reading Casanova's memoirs and he talks about travelling between two Italian cities, which took weeks, while the same distance today is covered in a few hours by train. For max $800 or so you can book a return flight to any part of the planet. Imagine not taking advantage of this. It's basically the biggest advantage of modernity. You could be walking around Rome in the next 24 hours if you really wanted to.

>>22997840
Get over yourself. You're one of those autists who say stuff like "why go to a live show?? I get a better view just watching a recording online"

>>22997848
Schopenhauer thinking that the discovery and translation of ancient Sanskrit texts would lead to a new Renaissance in Europe just like the rediscovery of Greco-Roman texts led to the first Renaissance, takes the cake for me. He really bought into it.

>>22997944
Casanova, Histoire de ma vie.

>>23005264
See >>23004720
It's possible now, yes, but all cities, museums, etc. look the same now and everybody is catering to lowest common denominator tourism. If you travel to some completely out of touch, savage lands, and take on their way of life for a while, fair fucks to you, but let's not pretend there's any serious value in visiting any of the mainstream metropolises. Nobody is in it for the culture or some sort of enlightenment anymore, but rather so they can brag they went, take picture and videos, and upload them on social media.

>>23005264
>he talks about travelling between two Italian cities, which took weeks, while the same distance today is covered in a few hours by train
This isn't the positive you think it is, not to mention Italy wasn't unified back then. Sounds like he was on an adventure, whereas you can go "take a quick look" and not actually engage in the local. And regional differences are much less pronounced nowadays.

>>22997780
>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept
I haven't read the piece you're referring to, but I imagine Scruton is just criticizing the fetishistic globe-trotting indulged in these days by vapid narcissists so they can post pictures about it on social media. If so, it's hardly an original viewpoint:


Hoc tibi soli putas accidisse et admiraris quasi rem novam quod peregrinatione tam longa et tot locorum varietatibus non discussisti tristitiam gravitatemque mentis? Animum debes mutare, non caelum. Licet vastum traieceris mare, licet, ut ait Vergilius noster, terraeque urbesque recedant, sequentur te quocumque perveneris vitia.

Do you suppose you alone have experienced this? — Do you wonder at the novelty, that after such long travel and so many changes of scene, you have not shaken off your heaviness of mind? You need a change of soul, not of climate. You may cross vast oceans, so that, in Virgil's words, ‘lands and cities recede’; yet your faults will follow, wherever you go.

— Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, #28 (‘On Travel As A Cure For Discontent’)

>>23005511
>>23005518
There's definitely homogeneization going on but my main point still stands. I went to Rome earlier this year including a day trip to Milan. I saw the Last Supper, lots of Caravaggio paintings, St. Peter's, Bernini sculptures in the Villa Borghese... I travel to see artworks, not necessarily cities themselves, although certain European cities are still beautiful and have retained their own unique character. Sevilla, Barcelona, Venice.
You can't shake the feeling though, walking through Europe, that this is a continent on the way out, an empire in decline. But there is still beauty to be found.

>>22997861
>Stockhausen thought 9/11 was a work of art
So did Bobby Fischer.

>>23005511
>all look the same now
wrong, pleb

>>22997780
>>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept

>He has not learned their ways and laws

>>23005784
>that picture
I wonder what he was thinking at that moment

>>22999352
Thanks trannybro
you're one of the good 'uns

>>22997780
>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept
I mean, if it doesn't serve any purpose outside of seeing something, then yeah, it's pointless. Just google a fucking picture or something.

If you travel somewhere and live there for a longer period to the point of actually getting to know the culture, language, religion and having some real experiences there, that might have some influence on you as a person, not necessarily good or bad.

Modern day traveling is just a business, pure capitalism, zero inherent value. It's basically like going to a cinema but for a longer period of time. Back in the old days nobody traveled if they didn't have a reason because it served no purpose and it was dangerous.

>>23005787
>He was right...

>>23005266
I do lol, live shows are more about meeting others than appreciating the music. You can hardly hear shit over all the normoids screaming and shouting.

>>23005586
None of European architecture or classical paintings really impress me. I like traveling for eco-tourism, but I think unfortunately it does damage the environment. However, paradoxically in some areas, funds from eco-tourism do prevent the growth of industry, given how everything is set up in a capitalist environment.
Also, dislike of European culture does not make one a Jew. I don't like to see Europeans wiped out or their culture replaced. It's just that your culture doesn't impress me because it's too humancentric and feels like it's at war with nature. Also, I don't want you to visit my own country and feel you people take advantage of my own race's hospitality, and neither your praise nor criticisms of other cultures means much to me. I don't like you. I can't help but you see as quasi-Jew is what I'm saying, which is clearly evident in your architecture and classical paintings. For example, I think there is "something to animism" but obviously we don't see this expressed much in 12-19th century European artwork except maybe for Arcimboldo.

>>23006248
Life is a business. America has reduced the experience of life to mere financial transaction. Blood and soil are the only other ways one can impart value society wide. People will favor their family and near-kin by default, but not the family across the street, not without reinforcement and a racial connection.

>>23005706
You haven't been to many cities, I see.

>>23005581
this is such a retarded letter I changed scene and my mood changed. like how fucking stupid do you have not to understand this basic human fact? I would literally feel better if I lived a spacious house next to ocean. I guess you need either to be a retard or a philosopher to not to understand basic shit.

>>22997784
It's a relatively common sentiment. I think it partly has to do with how overrated travelling is, especially among young women, as a sort of status symbol used to advertise oneself as being interesting.

>>23004720
The people make those metropolis different because of their cultures. The English are very different from the French and Japanese. You won't find proper maid bars in London nor you will find proper pubs in Tokyo.

>>23005511
Museums are probably the best reason to visit big cities. Saying they all look the same is absurd. There are works of art all around the globe you will find nowhere else.

>>23007943
It's all the same. People walk in the same suits to the same white collar jobs in the same glass and steel skyscrapers while sipping the same overpriced coffee and hearing the same normie trash music blare from the same cars passing by. There is only one City on Earth, and every metropolis is but a district of that one city regardless of their location or what language people speak there. Though even language is debatable because English is the mother tongue of all metropolises, as the unanimous global language.

>>22997784
I’ve travelled a lot and the only time I enjoyed it was when I went to meet people close to me. If you have a problem in life it probably isn’t the place you are located.

>>23008147
The part about museums, I should've said they're all the same, not that they literally look the same. If you nitpick, of course there are famous artifacts or artworks only to be found in particular museums, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is that they're just vehicles of commodifying history and art, turning cultural experiences into spectacles. Museums are designed to cater to mass tourism and are just spaces where the authentic encounter with culture is replaced by a commodified and consumable spectacle. Artworks in museums become objects to be consumed and they lose their aura, tourism just exacerbates the problem by reducing the cultural experience to a checklist of famous attractions. All museums simply become spaces where simulated history and art cater to the expectations of a globalized, tourist audience, and the experience removes individuals from the local and genuine context. I also think that museums are just institutions that perpetuate a static understanding of art, rather than being dynamic spaces fostering ongoing artistic development. They're inherently worthless and you would get the same experience looking up a picture of the same things on Google. So in that sense, museums everywhere in the world are all the same.

>>22998653
that place is gorgeous
I assume it's somewhere in the US but I also think it could be Argentina. Would you mind telling where it is?

>>23009367
damn, postmoderned so hard the jews took your soul

>>22997780
Was he against travelling or against tourism? Tourism is utterly abhorrent.

>>23005269
Several generations of writers and thinkers after him were still infatuated with this idea, viz. Joseph Campbell and many, many thousands of boomers.

>>22997780
>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept

>>23009756
Nice rebuttal.

>>23005784
There is no way on this green Earth he did not realize everything he said was wrong bout the important thing being culture and not race.

This pic is like the woman with the mixed race baby trying desperately to present a positive charade to the world.

>>22999352
Uh, I’m a 41 year old dude with a moustache

>>23009367
>you would get the same experience looking up a picture of the same things on Google
You can't be serious man

>>22997780
Freuds concept of Americans and how it neatly aligns Orthodox Christianity’s same opinion. Though it says more about the Orthodox Church than it does Freud.

>>22997840
>>22997972
>>22997998
>>22998124
>>22998620
>>22999668
>>23000007
>>23004720
>>23005511


It's so embarrassing every time I see this kind of attitude. Really, you flew to some famed European city and blew a lot of money for no good reason, of course it sucked. Basically if, while abroad, you spent money on something, it probably sucked. Try hitchhiking through some Arab country, or Russia, or Brazil or Africa somewhere nobody travels to. You might die, but probably not.
I went hitchhiking for a few weeks in the Caucasus after living in Moscow for a year, and I stayed with dozens of these heroically poor mountain-folk, who fed me, gave me a bed to sleep in, I herded goats for one guy, I helped this migrant produce-salesman hawk his watermelons, I drank a lot of homemade vodka and shot AK 47s in the street, I hiked a road for 30 miles and saw a single shepherd the whole time.

they didn't treat me like they could get money out of me, they'd just never met an american before, they asked with horror about my experiences with black people, apparently they think black people are twice as strong and fast physically lmao. I studied Russian though, which meant I could communicate with most everyone I ran into, so that's important. But dude even in fucking ITALY of all places, rural Sicily, I met people who had never dealt with tourists

IF YOU THINK TRAVELING IS SHIT, IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE SHIT, COWARD

>>23009756
I guess Scruton was a postmodernist too.

>>23011530
That's nice. However, why is it embarrassing to you? Do you realize some people simply prefer to stay home or in their local area? People are different. You do understand that, don't you?

>>23011484
I admit that might be an exaggeration, but the rest of my post is a completely valid criticism.

>>23011539

no look, if someone doesn't want to experience another culture it's fine, but to call it some depressing global tourist trap the whole world over, or that the golden age is finished, is mere cowardice. Just say that you don't care to leave and it's fine. But then there would be no need to post that on 4chan would there

>>23009367
>The part about books, I should've said they're all the same, not that they literally read the same. If you nitpick, of course there are famous concepts or words only to be found in particular books, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is that they're just vehicles of commodifying language and art, turning cultural experiences into spectacles. Books are designed to cater to mass readership and are just things where the authentic encounter with culture is replaced by a commodified and consumable experience. Concepts in books become objects to be consumed and they lose their aura, readership just exacerbates the problem by reducing the cultural experience to a checklist of famous best-sellers. All books simply become items where simulated language and art cater to the expectations of a globalized, reading audience, and the experience removes individuals from the local and genuine context. I also think that books are just objects that perpetuate a static understanding of art, rather than being dynamic things fostering ongoing conceptual development. They're inherently worthless and you would get the same experience looking up a summary of the same things on Wikipedia. So in that sense, books everywhere in the world are all the same.
OK I get it. Museums bad, traveling bad, everything is a simulacra. What do you do all day? Sit in your house and mope? Certainly not read, see above

>>23011539
>some people simply prefer to stay home or in their local area
>people are different, leave them alone
>some people prefer to travel and visit new places
>WRONG. Unacceptable. Here are a dozen posts explaining why that is WRONG and BAD.
The irony

>>23009367
What? You may be suprised to learn that a large amount of museums conduct research on the specimens or artifacts that they store. They don't just exist to collect money from visitors

>>23005264
>For max $800 or so you can book a return flight to any part of the planet.
I have $50 in my account desu.

>Roger Scruton was against traveling as a concept
he's british. british people have everything in the world in that fucking island
>nabokov jejune
This is easy if you know nabokov
>evola homossexual
if he could choose i bet he would choose be heterossexual

Reminder /lit/ has a bunch of rich trust fund kids in their 20s and 30s on it who had the money to travel and the time to do it. That's why they're so content to defend travel and derail the thread and also have the time to respond to every post.

The anti travel posters might be a bit of sour grapes but they have good points.

Kant never ventured more than 50 miles outside of Koeningsburg his entire life.

I think people that work for a living and travel for vacations are very low IQ. Tremendous waste of money and time off work that could have been used to invest to escape the need to work.

>>23012099
>>some people prefer to travel and visit new places
>>WRONG. Unacceptable. Here are a dozen posts explaining why that is WRONG and BAD.
Your reading comprehension really is shit. A world can exist without museums being what they are today, and traveling can exist as an adventure, not as a part of mass, globalized tourism that we have today. Another thing I didn't mention is the environmental impact mass travel has, so not just the cultural aspect.
>>23011591
>>23012084
See above. Like I've said, I have no qualms with someone who goes into some obscure part of the world and takes on their way of life there, but if you're arguing in favor of tourism as it exists today, then you're hopeless and there's no need to continue this.
>>23012276
That doesn't really change much about what I've already said. It doesn't suddenly make them inherently valuable.
Looks like museums, tourism, traveling in general are a few more in a long line of touchy subjects people will seethe over if you critique them one bit. Curious.

>>23012084
And to answer this
>What do you do all day?
I read, work on my garden, and take walks in the nearby forest and fields. I don't need much more than that. Why are you taking it so personally?

>>23005264
The lack of journey and everything being centered around the destination isn't necessarily a positive when traveling, the next city like 50 kms away or so was also like another isolated civilization, now you can eat a McRib in both Rome and Tokyo, everything has become a lot more homogenous and uniform due to how interconnected the world has become.
It's easier to travel but there are less substantial experiences to be had and the people you encounter will be more similar to those back home than ever before, which is why people are obsessed with backpacking in Guyana or living with goat herders in Afghanistan and whatnot because the people, the locales and the journey in these more detached, less globalized parts of the world still hold some of the old magic.