/lit/ - Literature

>>22951291


Orin is the on involved with the distrubtion of the cartirdges. Can't remember about Pemulus but I think maybe connected to Mario somehow or maybe who his real dad is.

>>22951297
what the fuck, how the fuck did you come to the conclusion that orin is connected to the cartridges or their distribution in any ways?

>>22951291
this book is an inside joke and not mean to be read, its like finnigan's wake for muttmericans

>>22951348
What a penetrating criticism

hal has some reaction to the dmz likely spiked on his toothbrush related to the time he ate mold as a child.

hal likely meets don G at the hospital after his meltdown in the first chapter leading to those events digging up his fathers grave.

orin has the master cartridge

>>22951304
not that guy, but there are hints that give it away. Orin was obivously aware of the moms being a super slut and so the target against her lovers is one clue. they also mention that the tapes are being distributed by the mail system and early in the book theres a big dialogue between orin and hal where orin is in line at a post office.

>>22951291
Pretty much nothing happened to Pemulis.
April probably got fired from her position.
Hal had an anxiety attack.
Nothing, the wraith failed to make Hal use it. It's still there somewhere.

Don and MP tell him about it. They met in the hospital.
There is one. They just find the body too late.
Nothing because the moms did not pay attention to him met his demands

>>22951291
>What happened to pemulis?
finished his semester and then got kicked out presumably

>What happened to the moms?
what do you mean? just continued on with her life i guess

>Why did hal go crazy and wasnt able to speak anymore?
spiked with dmz from his toothbrush. winow was open, figure outside, hal immediately notices a distorted time which was one of the symptoms the army guy who took it had

>What happened to the DMZ?
taken by lyle/wraith and transformed (presumably) and put on hal's toothbrush

>How did Hal find out about the Master Cartrigde and why did they try to dig it up?
there is no master. not sure why they dug it up. it's possible JOI wanted to show there was no master. to whom? possibly the afr. we know the onana broke up, there's a reference to fighter jets overhead, so it's possible it was done to prevent some kind of war. it's all just speculation though

>>22951376
>hal has some reaction to the dmz likely spiked on his toothbrush related to the time he ate mold as a child.
how do you make that connection?
first the relation between the mold and the DMZ
and then how it got on his toothbrush
was there any indication that it started when he was burhsing his teeth or what?

>>22951386
>and early in the book theres a big dialogue between orin and hal where orin is in line at a post office.
isnt that when orin talks to hal about steeply, that tranny he wants to fuck?
>so the target against her lovers
but thats only true for the medical middle eastern guy is it not?

>>22951393
>Don and MP tell him about it. They met in the hospital.
why was MP in the hospital, and was there an indication that hal was in the hospital?
im aware that one of the kids was in the hospital because of the eschaton debacle, next to don.
>There is one. They just find the body too late.
so the fucking AFR got it then?

>>22951403
Oh, I missed
>If there is no Master Cartridge, where are all the copies coming from?
Number of copies aligns with number of IJ's made in his filmography

>>22951393
>Nothing, the wraith failed to make Hal use it. It's still there somewhere.
but the wraith was his dad.
how did the wraith try to make hal use it, and why did he want him to use it?
was it supposed to be taken with the entertainment?
and if jon wanted hal to take the DMZ how the fuck did pemulis get to it?

>>22951403
>spiked with dmz from his toothbrush. winow was open, figure outside, hal immediately notices a distorted time which was one of the symptoms the army guy who took it had
i completely missed this, jesus christ

>taken by lyle/wraith and transformed (presumably) and put on hal's toothbrush
was there any indication for that?

>>22951304
They're coming from AZ in YDAU. He's the only character there. It'd be a red herring if it wasn't Orin.
>>22951291
>What happened to pemulis?
Possibly got lucky and did not hear the squeak.
>Why did hal go crazy and wasnt able to speak anymore?
>What happened to the DMZ?
Wraith caused it to fall from the hiding place in the ceiling drop tile on to Hal's toothbrush, Hal ingested the DMZ without knowing it. Kenkle asks Hal why he's making exaggerated faces when he alerts them about Stice being stuck to the window, so it happened before then.
>What did Pemulis ultimately do with the dirt he had on the moms?
He never got to tell Hal.

>>22951431
>He never got to tell Hal.
hal knew it anyways, he know all about the moms being the super slut

>Possibly got lucky and did not hear the squeak.
why would pemulis hear the squeak, isnt he pretty much unrelated to the AFR and what they plan?

>Wraith caused it to fall from the hiding place in the ceiling drop tile on to Hal's toothbrush
where was that discussed?
i know someone wound the dislodged ceiling plates, but when was it implied that the wraigh did it, and how did it find its way onto the toothbrush?

>>22951404
I believe early on in the book when describing the DMZ itself they mention that it created due to some reaction to mold or some similar reaction. it's been a long time since I read it but there is a connection between the DMZ and the mold hal eats as a child that causes him to have the reaction he does. during that early morning dreamy sequence during the snow storm hal sees a figure running over the field. some people think this was pt krause. but again I don't know. they mention the tooth brush heaps of times in the book and I think there was definitely another reference to it towards the end of the book.

also can't remember what orin was talking about in the post office, i think it was him hooking up with various people. but the point was that he was at the post office and that is easily overlooked.

I think orin was targeting those people that slept with the moms, but I honestly cant remember thre rest. But orin is definitely the one with the master cartridge.

>>22951414
He wanted to "fix" Hal by making him watch the video while intoxicated

>>22951456
>He wanted to "fix" Hal by making him watch the video
yeah i realized that, i know JOI wanted hal to watch the video, he mad eit for him
but i did not realize JOI had the DMZ in mind too.
some people believe hal synthesized the DMZ in his own body because of the mold he ate as a kid

>>22951404
>and then how it got on his toothbrush
The wraith tells DG about his son's inability to speak. The wraith in so many words says he has a plan regarding his son's inability to speak. We are told how wraiths function then. The wraith was moving things all around ETA, which we're told during several chapters. We're also told where Mike stashed the DMZ, drop tile above the sink.
>was there any indication that it started when he was burhsing his teeth or what?
He's carrying his morning bathroom supplies, including his toothbrush in his NASA mug the morning of the snowstorm, when he finds Stice stuck to the window.
>but thats only true for the medical middle eastern guy is it not?
Like anyone with a pulse is the hearsay on the Moms.
>why was MP in the hospital
DG
>was there an indication that hal was in the hospital?
Hal tells us that during Year of Glad

>The wraith tells DG about his son's inability to speak. The wraith in so many words says he has a plan regarding his son's inability to speak.
yeah i relaized that, i know he made the entertainment for him, but i missed:
>The wraith was moving things all around ETA, which we're told during several chapters.
this.

>why was MP in the hospital
>DG
what was the connection between DG and MP?

>>22951446
>hal knew it anyways
Hal abso-fucking-lutely did NOT know for a fact that his mother was fucking around with John (N.R.) Wayne. He heard a Tenuate-influenced Trolsch eat cheese about it over the announcements, but it was likely he probably wrote it off as a joke and didn't take the warning literally.

>>22951492
>The wraith was moving things all around ETA, which we're told during several chapters.
It is also somewhat implied that Lyle is a wraith of some kind too

>>22951492
>what was the connection between DG and MP?
My friend, did you actually read the book or are you just asking questions to satisfy yourself about the book's plot?

>>22951291
I don't remember any of this shit
It's like asking what happened to the farmer that murdered the cow in Napoleon Dynamite

>>22951515
>Hal abso-fucking-lutely did NOT know for a fact that his mother was fucking around with John (N.R.) Wayne.
he literally states that he knew about it. youre saying hes an unreliable narrator in that chapter?

>>22951529
i have absolutely no connection between DG and MP.
i know MPs brother is a fag and whore because he got fucked by his dad, but where the fuck did the DG and MP connection come from?

also, did avril actually fuck orin?

>>22951541
>i have absolutely no connection between DG and MP.
My bad. I took MP as Madame Psychosis instead of Mike Pemulis. Gately might have possibly had a tangential connection to Matty, since Matty almost definitely committed some crimes around Boston, but, correct, there's line between DG and Mike

So is Orin being blackmailed or working with the Wheelchair assassin group. Why exactly is he mass distrubing the entertainment

>>22951541
>he literally states that he knew about it
Interesting, got a page number?

>>22951563
man youre making me get out of my bed kek
gimme a few mins

>>22951554
>My bad. I took MP as Madame Psychosis instead of Mike Pemulis.
makes sense
>correct, there's line between DG and Mike
what line is that?

>>22951585
>>correct, there's line between DG and Mike
I meant no line

>>22951563
>>22951585
page 957
"John Wayne had been involved with the Moms sexually since roughly the second month after his arrival. They were both espats. I hadn't been able to identify a strong feeling one way or the other about the liaison, nor about Wayne himself, except for admiring his talent and total focus. I did not know whether Mario knew of the liaison, to say nothing of poor C.T."

then he also talks about all the others his whore of a mother fucked,
>Bain, graduate students, grammatical colleagues, japanese fight-choreographers, Ken N Johnson, the Islamic M.D.

>>22951541
>also, did avril actually fuck orin?
Molly Notkin told Unspecified Services everything she knew and more, emphasis on the and more. Molly didn't know his nickname was Filbert, only JVD did, and only if Orin confided this, so Molly is operating completely on conjecture - not to say it's wrong, because we don't know. We do know that it's possible that it happened. We do know that Orin and Avril are not talking to each other. We also know that JOI and JVD feel that they know it happened, and that is a major player in why they bonded during the closing days of JOI's life. Orin's imitation of his mother is also more than vaguely sexual, and immediately after we're told about this impression he can do, we get the scene between Orin and the 'Swiss' hand model, where their breaths intermingle (or some shit), which is the exact phrasing used when Orin describes the all-encompassing nature of the Moms as she draws nearer and nearer until her face is in your face, her breath in yours, etc.

>>22951557
>mass distrubing the entertainment
he only sent copies to his mom's ex lovers

>>22951625
Appreciated

Such a book what a guy wow ghosts n sheeit

>>22951291
>What happened to pemulis?
He got the boot.
>What happened to the moms?
Nothing.
>Why did hal go crazy and wasnt able to speak anymore?
He didn't go crazy, he ceased speaking all together as Himself foresaw, same as Himself did.
>What happened to the DMZ?
Avril used it to blackmail Pemulis so he could not blackmail her.
>How did Hal find out about the Master Cartrigde and why did they try to dig it up?
They didn't.
>If there is no Master Cartridge, where are all the copies coming from?
Himself's mysterious trip right before meeting the microwave, he put his affairs in order.
>What did Pemulis ultimately do with the dirt he had on the moms?
See above.

Plotfags can't even follow the plot, it is all there in the text.

>>22951291
isn't pemulus a thing in rick and morty?

>>22951765
The moms more likely than not are dead by the end of the book.

>>22951809
Based on what? Nothing in the book supports that.

>>22951820
>Luria P.
>Do it to her!
Orin's request to give up the Samizdat is for her mother to be tortured/killed

>>22951841
lol. Pure conjecture with nothing to support it and does not even make sense.

>>22951873
Exactly

>>22951841
1. The Moms is a Quebecois agent. There are (at least) three at the academy. Why would she be dead, unless for some unspecified reason they made her watch IJ on a whim, which is of course kind of in their, the AFR's, wheelhouse sure but there'd be no evidence of it in the text.
2. Are you suggesting that you think Avril=Luria? The timetable on YDAU Nov. 11 doesn't really allow for that.

>>22951291
Man I wish I could write a retarded book like this and get so much acclaim

Everytime I show anything to any workshop, their all like hurr durr this doesn't make sense this story doesn't wrap up this character doesn't make sense yada yada. I mean they criticising it by these modern cringe book standards? How do I get people to evaluate my book by the same standard they evaluate IJ or Ulysses or whatever

>>22952481
Criticism is criticism, even basic plot level analysis is worthwhile, you just need to learn how to use it. Identify where they are coming from and then weigh it against where you are trying to go, apply. The best thing you can do for your writing is try and really understand what criticism you get, if you can figure out how to accomplish your goals in a way those people get you will be doing well.

>>22952572
Would you be able to expand on this with an example? Would like to hear more of your thoughts on this

>>22951291
The real question is if Orin fucked Avril. And the answer is clearly a resounding yes. What's up with that?

DFW deserved to die for being such a dick with Pemulis. He was the closest thing in ETA side of the book to a heroic character, but DFW wants the reader to see him as a bad guy for some reason.

>>22951873
not him but how else does the "do it to her" make sense?

>>22952852
why is the answer yes? jesus

>>22953079
what does orin wanting them to torture luria have to do with avril somehow being dead?

>>22953146
it makes no sense saying "do it to her" when its obvious that she is part of the whole operation.
>no, no, do it to the evil villain, not me, stop slapping my balls im mister bond do it to the evil villain instead
makes no sense
i think honestly he was referring to his whore of a mom

>>22953151
>obviously
>but I can't support it in anyway, it is just obvious

>>22953153
alright then, who was he talking about?
its not the hand model, because that would just make no sense.

>>22953156
So Avril has the ability to teleport? Only way she could get there given the time. Not to mention Avril does not even go outside let alone leave the ETA grounds.

But why should someone facing their worst fear be rational and make sense?

>>22953160
she was not there
>But why should someone facing their worst fear be rational and make sense?
hes not being rational, because as you said, avril wasnt here.
but i am 100% sure, he was implying avril, because shes the person he hates the very most

>>22953151
What evidence do you have that "her" refers to his mom in that situation?

>>22953164
everything you've said is just your conjecture.

>>22953164
Even if he meant her that does not mean she got killed. It does not matter who he meant and when you get down to it you can not prove it was not just one of his dreams, we can make a better case for it being a dream than real.

>>22953172
im not the guy who said avril was dead, i think the whore is alive and well

>>22953170
true

>>22953167
im just thinking this:
>it makes no sense to imply the woman whos standing there being part of torturing him and saying "do it to her", also because he was fucking semi-talking to her (his captors in general) when saying this
>he is in the absolute worst situation for him, and he absolutely hates his mom (with good cause!) so it makes sense that his brain sets back to his most cranial desires to make his whore of a mom suffer

>>22953179
>im not the guy who said avril was dead
Then why did you respond to >>22953146? You are waffling now.

>>22953193
>Then why did you respond to >>22953146
just to explain why i think he was referring to avril and not the swiss handmodel, and because the guy i was quoting was initially quoting my post
>>22953079
this is me

>>22953202
I know that is you, but you are either waffling or stupid if you can not see how that response makes it really sound like you think Avril is dead. Either way, you sound like you have mommy issues.

>>22953179
I see where you're coming from now, anon. That actually could make sense. I think I confused you with someone else arguing Avril was killed. I still think it's Luria seeing as she's right there in the room, and also because of the 1984 allusion, but I definitely could see how that works.

Also, do you have any of your own mother issues? Some of your posts....

>>22953212
>Also, do you have any of your own mother issues?
idk how do i find out?

>>22952813
I am about to fall asleep but I will make an effort post tomorrow if the thread lives through the night. Quick bit of advice, use every bit of criticism as an exercise, try and rework it to address their criticism while keeping your goals in mind; even if nothing from it gets directly used you will learn a great deal and it will help you keep the reader in mind when writing.

>>22951291
>>22952864
Pemulis thinks he values ETA as a ticket out of the lower class, but he clearly still serves the master of his hoodlum origins. I think this places him in the column of "back out there" (literally) like Kate Gompert according to the book's logic rather than in the archetype of a true bad guy like Avril. It does seem pretty damning that Hal calls him "the real monster" (lol) to wrap up his character, but I'm not entirely sure we can take everything the protagonists say as the author's voice, as Gately mentally refers to people as "niggers" several times, which I'd think you'd agree, isn't a case of DFW speaking through the protagonist. I'll admit that my point here is hampered by the fact that the endnotes as I recall half-apologize for Gately, while Pemulis isn't really redeemed at all in the endnotes.

>>22953307
>It does seem pretty damning that Hal calls him "the real monster"
where was that?
and where can i find the endnotes?

someone in another thread said hal "betrayed" pemulis, how and when was that?

>>22953265
Based anon with based writing advice

If the thread doesn't make it through the night, I'll create a new thread just for your effort post. Sleep well champ

>>22953323
Hal said something like "the monster for me is no longer a face in the floor but a brass-faced liar who you can't tell is lying" referring to Pemulis saving him from the drug test. It's in the main text in a conversation with Mario towards the end. I would chance that this is the betrayal itself, because Pemulis has done nothing but use his lower class sleaziness to help Hal up to that point, and now Hal thinks he's the devil. Sorry I don't have the book on me right now.

>>22953347
oh yeah i remember, when he talks about lying.
can you explain why he was so shocked at pemulis telling the doc to give them the 30 days?

>>22953352
Did you start your essay too late pal?
My interpretation is that Hal had a basically Mario like understanding of lying. While Mario can't tell if someone is lying at all, Hal can but thought it was impossible for someone to lie in a way that he couldn't tell

>>22953366
>Did you start your essay too late pal?
no, im just enjoying to read different peoples opinions on a book.

>>22953366
yeah, but still hal should have realized (and he literally did, and said it) that pemulis didnt do it for pemulis, he did it for hal.
so why is he such a fucking bitch about it, yeah the boy can lie but hes lying for him, to help him.

>>22953375
I would say that Hal is just as flawed as any other character and is a sheltered, privileged 17 year old who values moral integrity above everything else, of course only when it is convenient to him; he wasn't at risk of getting booted over a failed drug test anyway, and he already knew about Pemulis's blackmail. Avril learning that Hal hid his addiction from her would have strained things between them but it probably would have helped Hal in the end IMO

>>22953375
I apologize for the remark also. I see that you are probably ESL but I took your straightforward syntax as a short-response prompt. That said, I'm surprised you got so far through this book given your grasp of the language. Did you read in translation? How was that?

>>22953419
i read it in english man

>>22952073
I don't think avril=luria is correct but there are quite a few other chronological issues in this book lol

another thing, why was orin so swooned by a fucking hairy, masculine tranny with the build of a wrestler?

>>22953431
iirc everyone on the football team is, seems like a bit nothing more

>>22953427
what are the others? i’d like to know what quite the few are.

>>22953446
There are several conclusions you can come to on when the Port Washington meet is, where the PWTA kid sings show tunes. The Orin torture scene itself would seem to be Nov 11 based on who is there, but the AFR at a date later than this mentions the "last-resort" option of capturing JOI's relatives. The amount of presidential administrations between HW Bush and Gentle, who presumably is elected in 2000/YW (even keeping in mind Limbaugh's assassination) is quite improbable. Granted, you could say "so and so is an unreliable narrator" but 1. that doesn't help the reader much in a book with so many characters and an unclear point of view and 2. yeah, who is the narrator actually that we are calling unreliable? There just isn't enough solid grounding of truth in the story to be planting lies and expect people to discern them, which may be "the point" or "meta", but you could also consider them errors without really being wrong, I think

>>22951291
Where do you guys rank IJ amongst DFW's work? I've read all his short stories and non-fic but never ventured into his novels. Do they still have the patented DFW magic/autism?

>>22953483
None of those are chronological errors though, i.e. events taking place simultaneously that would conflict with each other. Pemulis gets the day wrong on the PW meet. JOI has multiple relatives that could be captured. Why does the ONANA have presidential terms corresponding exactly to the USA's?

And even if they were, they're extended out to a much further period than the timeline of a day. I can see DFW getting it wrong in regards to a longer time-frame, but the 11th is pretty well plotted out.

>>22953505
Like I said, you can say that if you want, but there are just some aspects of this book that aren't so tightly plotted as some people think. The way the "last-resort capture of JOI's relatives" thing was worded could be an intentional res herring, but if so, it's completely unsatisfying and possibly retarded in helping obscure the fact that the roach torture is way out of place in the timeline being at the end of the book.

Also, ONAN doesn't form until after Gentile is elected POTUS

>>22953522
>Like I said, you can say that if you want, but there are just some aspects of this book that aren't so tightly plotted as some people think. The way the "last-resort capture of JOI's relatives" thing was worded could be an intentional res herring, but if so, it's completely unsatisfying and possibly retarded in helping obscure the fact that the roach torture is way out of place in the timeline being at the end of the book.
It's not out of place. The whole narrative is fractured.

>ONAN doesn't form until after Gentile is elected POTUS
That's largely irrelevant as he then becomes president of ONAN. Why does ONAN have to conform to US presidential terms, even if he was previously president of the US?

>>22953528
It's a red herring though, because at that point in the book it's the only passage that skips back a couple weeks. That's fine, but if this was all supposed to be intentional and not contradictory (which, it's fine if is!) then it's just bad writing to have the red herring be a result of the AFT agent saying something that they have already done is a last resort option "misspeaking", or I can't remember, maybe this was just written plainly in the voice of the narrator?

Wrt presidential terms I'm talking about b.s. 1993-2000 genuine USA presidents.
DFW references a slew of Media personalities who were pre-ONAN presidents including at least Ted Turner, Rush Limbaugh, Casey Kasem, and Jack Kemp. There's clearly a strong tongue in cheek element to this, and if the ones I remember were all of them, I guess it is not impossible, but you would think with amount of exposition about media corporations DFW would have written something explaining 4 presidents in 8 years? This doesn't concern me too much, it is just another example of the book lacking rigorous plot, which, it does just fine without

>>22953584
Ah ok, I see what you mean now. Again, personally, I don’t see any timeline errors, but I can see how others could. And I’m not saying DFW is infallible. He got Hal’s age wrong that had to be corrected. But even then I still think the detailed plotting of the 11th in regards to time is too rigorous and not contradictory in any way, so I’m still going to go with that disallowing luria and avril being the same person (among other reasons).

>>22953495
IJ's genre is as far as I can tell, beat described as magical autism

This thread again?

>>22951291
>finally gonna read meme trio
can I jump right into infinite jest or do i need some pre-reading or whatever to catch up? just finished ulysses and it was unfathomably based

>>22953265
Tactical bump for my guy before I zonk off

>>22953584
The narrator is the narrator and a single entity that gives us all information even when it is from another perspective, we can not just say that a character misspoke, we have to also question if the narrator is the one at fault. The narrator makes heavy use of free indirect speech and epistolary information and blurs the line between the two.

Turner was not President, who Casey is is unknown and we have nothing to suggest he was President, no idea why anyone would assume it is Casey Kasem. There were two or three presidents during those years, Kemp, Limbaugh and maybe Clinton if the Limbaugh assassination happened when he was in office but I don't recall if we ever get that information. Review the P-Terminal conversation, you assumed a line was listing Presidents when it clearly is not, it just lists the current president and VP and two other powerful people who could be useful in the situation.

>>22955275
Had the bit about Turner and Casey wrong, lists heads of the CIA, not presidents.
>I know Ottawa informed Turner, Bush, Casey, whoever it was at the time, and everyone at Langley bit their knuckle in horror.’
So this would be Stansfield Turner and William Casey.

>>22953307
>but I'm not entirely sure we can take everything the protagonists say as the author's voice
In this case, DFW called Pemulis one of the antichrists of the book. He genuinely saw Pemulis as a bad guy, and I seriously don't get why he had duch a hate boner for him. You could argue that Pemulis could have been even a better friend to Hal, but he wasn't a bad friend by any means, and more importantly, Hal wasn't in any way a better friend to him. I seriously don't get why DFW expects the reader to side with Hal over Pemulis. If the situation had been reversed and Hal was the one about to be booted from the E.T.A and Pemulia was the one with influence over the administration, Pemulis would have 100% helped Hal, but DFW wants us to think that Pemulis is a monster for being kind of sleazy, and that Hal did the right thing by not caring about him.

>>22953092
Because Avril made John Wayne dress up as a football player when they fucked and Orin is the one killing Avril's lover. They definitely fucked.

>>22955358
We don't actually know DFW said that, we just have some guys word that DFW said that and he correctly remembers a conversation and its context from years ago.

>>22955367
Avril is dressed up as a cheerleader, Joelle, mo reason for her to dress up as Joelle to larp fucking Orin, she is larping as Joelle because she believes Joelle is the last person to have slept with JOI. This also works with the entire reason she is sleeping with other people.

>>22955367
>Because Avril made John Wayne dress up as a football player when they fucked
>Because Avril made John Wayne dress up as a football player when they fucked
holy fucking shit, how did i miss that obvious connection.
youre right she fucked him, she fucking fucked her own son
and poor ol hal never got any of the amazing avril pussy action

>>22953329
>>22954861
I did not forget about you, have had a profound lack of motivation so far today. I will get around to it sometime tonight.

>>22955406
> she is larping as Joelle because she believes Joelle is the last person to have slept with JOI.
she was whoring around her whole life, suddenly she wants to pretend to fuck her husband lmao?
why?
she didnt give a shit about JOI

>>22955729
>she was whoring around her whole life
Nope, she started sleeping around when JOI stopped sleeping with her, it was revenge because she believed JOI stopped sleeping with her because he was sleeping around when it was really just his guilt about there being a finite number of erections achievable in the world at any given time. It is all spelled out, you need to figure out motive and not just reduce characters to their actions.

>>22955275
>>22955323
Damn I'm a political and memorylet I'll take the L.

>>22955790
I don't know the politics either, I just remembered that Bush was CIA director and the mention of Langley suggested CIA so looked up past CIA directors. My memory is not amazing either, hence my having it wrong the first time, I control-f'd the ebook, all I really remembered was that it was from the P-Terminal bit but none of the details. Download the ebook and use it.

>>22955406
This. Avril haters really are desperate to find reasons to hate her. Some men can't stand a woman that owns her sexuality. She dressed herself as a cheerleader to larp as Joelle and John Wayne was dressed as a football player because JOI had been an athlete too when he was younger. It's not meant to be literal. It's symbolic. But people have no media literacy anymore.

>>22955935
>fucks everything that moves just to hurt her husband and because of the thrill it gives her
>"Some men can't stand a woman that owns her sexuality."
way too obvious, you need to veil your ragebait better.

look at him for instance:
>>22955787
>"you need to figure out motive and not just reduce characters to their actions."
now thats good apologetic writing, im not even sure if i should be annoyed at it or not.

>>22951291
Another sacred cow like Fisher. People love riding their dicks don’t they?

>>22955946
lol, So motive does not matter? All that stuff in the book regarding why Avril cheated should be ignored because of one allusion? Even if that why ties nicely into theme? That anon going on about owning sexuality maybe baiting but he has 10 times your understanding of nuance, he just hasn't read the book and made some guesses for the sake of his bait.

>>22955983
If being unfaithful was the only thing going against Avril, you'd have a point.

>>22953427
Tolstoy made chronological errors in War and Peace by accident too, shit happens when you write a book that long with that many characters and settings and time periods.

>>22956304
Nov 11 YDAU is pretty plotted out. I find it hard to believe that he'd fuck that up on one of the most important dates in the novel.

ctrl + f map
ctrl + f territory
0/0 results
I hope he's okay.

>>22956337
I meant that comment in general. I don't remember enough about IJ to start poking holes in specific plot points. But just because DFW was deliberate in what he wrote doesn't mean it came together perfectly or as he wanted it too

>>22956163
He provides the context for it all, sort of the point and why he spends so much time in the characters pasts.
>>22956341
I am here, thread has been mostly plot despite my best efforts (figuratively speaking) to nudge it over towards theme or structure or the mechanics of the novel. I don't put much effort into posting until someone gives me a reason to, just correct the odd details and hint at other things to see if the conversation will shift.

>>22955674
No worries my friend
I'm sure our autist frens will keep this going well into the night

>>22955823
I happened to order a kindle a couple days ago because I ran out of space for physical books lol. I'm looking forward to the seemless endnote experience for my next reread

>>22956341
what do you think about the broad use of the slang "map" throughout? the made-up slang can feel extraneous sometimes but it is interesting that map can in reality mean face and it is transmuted here to be a kind of symbolist metaphor for your face, your life, your person, the fact that what you think is irrelevant to how you act...

>>22957117
It is not made up, at least not made up by Wallace, comes from philosophy but he is not tying in any specific philosopher or idea with its use and this is just a bit of trivia. All those maps and their respective territories are fairly important to understanding IJ but there are not as many as it seems, 63 occurrences of 'map' in 1100 pages and probably a quarter to half of those are literal use and not the slang.

I want to be Mike's husband and cook for him. He is so strong minded, I love him.

>>22955965
Gtfo

>>22957146
Seems like there may be more than that.

>>22956341
map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories map territory maps territories

I hope that helps.

>>22957659
Make sure to include a space before or after the word in the query (“map”), because otherwise it would also flag instances of Wallace using million-dollar-words like plasmapheresis, semaphore, or hermaphroditic which also include the three letters “map” in them in that order.

>>22957303
>He is so strong minded
He really isn't, he is just arrogant beyond belief and lacking in anything resembling self awareness.
>>22957806
>before or after the word
While that will prevent it from finding words that 'map' is in the middle of like your examples it will not exclude words like 'maple' if you only have the leading space so we need spaces before AND after to include words which have it at the beginning, ending, or in the middle. But this also excludes forms of the word such as 'maps' and 'demap' which you would generally search for individually but in this case I just ignored because stating 'a quarter to half' was good enough for the needs and builds in the needed fuzz.

Even anon's 139 is hardly anything for a book of over half a million words, would be something like 0.0002%

Fuggit, I'm going to read it.

if avril wouldnt be described as such a tall, hot bitch, i would picture her as skylaar white

>>22958988
You’re going to identify with Mario as a heads up.

>>22959069
we all are

Gravity's Rainbow is 800 pages of genius symbolism about western civilization
infinite jest is 800 pages of symbolism about how depressed and insecure DFW is. the whole book is about DFW and his depression. that's why it's so contrived.
this book fucking sucks

>>22959112
i started gravitys rainbow and it was so shit that i deleted it 20 pages in
infinite jest i couldnt put away

pynchon or whatever the fuck his name is spelled <<<<< DFW

>>22959112
the internal microcosm can be just as beautiful you dumb fuck

>>22955674
Still holding out for you chief

>>22960654
I have not forgotten about you, it has been sort of eating at me. The problem is I thought about it too much after that first post and now I have far too much I want to say on the topic and everytime I try to respond I have a lengthy essay worth of stuff which I would not mind writing all down but I can't really justify that sort of time commitment right now so I try and boil it down to a post or two but it just saps my energy. I have done what I can to keep this thread alive and my shame with it and have started to reply multiple times but it goes nowhere.

Feel free to shame me, keep this thread alive until I respond. I will give it another go after I drink this beer and eat something.

>>22951414
>jon

>>22961199
*joi

Someone please explain the map/territory meme to me. I don't get it but I always see it being brought up.

>>22961209
>>22961209
Look up Simulacra & Simulation by Baudrillard. The shorthand is: don't mistake the representation of a thing for the thing itself. Korzybski's shorthand is "Whatever I say a thing is, it is not" (the word/label cannot be the same thing as the referent).

You could reproduce a map so detailed and at a 1:1 scale, but it's still not the territory. It'll always be something other than what it represents. So in IJ, when it snows on the tennis court, it shouldn't affect the game-world (map), only the real world (territory). The kids were arguing over levels of abstraction.

Also pic related.

>>22960859
Don't be a faggot anon, this ain't a lit class where you gotta prove yourself or some shit
Just give me 4 based examples of how to use criticism to improve my creative writing and let's carry on

>>22961209
The meme comes from my doing some effort posting on map/territory in IJ and about a week later an anon poorly regurgitated those posts getting a fair amount wrong and clearly showing a complete lack of understanding, when I called him on it he doubled down so I humiliated him and the thread mysteriously got deleted about 5 minutes later despite being one of the threads in the catalog that was on topic. He tried again about a week later but was more terse in an attempt to not be so wrong, he was even more wrong this time but he did not delete the thread. After that he tried to turn it into a meme, that what I was saying about the map/territory was the meme and he was calling me out on it. He kept it up for about 6 months but it never quite caught on probably because I generally just tied the map/territory meme into the discussion which is easy enough since it is a fairly major part of how he conveys theme.

The other anon explained the philosophy background and touched on Wallace's use but it is more than just the Eschaton scene and by that point Wallace had given us a fair amount of maps/masks/cages (things that obfuscate and separate us/the world from the world/us) and the filmography which is the general theme of Himself's work but gave us nothing to tie it to the idea and when he finally does tie it all together about halfway through he does it in the least subtle way possible short of literal narrator exposition, he has Pemulis jumping up and down and screaming 'map not territory' and explaining it.

>>22958996
I picture her as Elizabeth Debicki.

>>22951291
So we all agree the Pempster is the best character in the novel, maybe with Gately, right?

>>22951693
this but unironically. by the time you get to the end and now there's fucking ghost. pure fucking kino.

>>22964071
Ayo wtf there's ghosts and shit in this mf?

>>22963753
Hey Poster?
Hey Poster?
I think Mario is the best character in the novel, Poster.

>>22958608
That's what I like about him then.

>>22959069
HAHAHHAHAHA this must be the funniest post I've read in an IJ thread that actually was about the book