/lit/ - Literature

OP managed to find artwork that's somehow even gayer than the crop from literal gay porn a few threads back.

I like reading Caesar
Now that I'm 70% done book 1 it's starting to make sense now properly.

>>22941511
banausos

>>22941511
This is not gay. They are sibling horses and clearly great friends. Please do not slander this beautiful artwork.

Stopped studying for a few weeks because of a depressive spiral. I'm now having to relearn a bunch of vocab and I half-forgot my declensions. VGH. The struggle continues.

>>22941520
DBG? Such a comfy read. It was great practice for oratio obliqua when I was relatively inexperienced with it, too.

>>22941520
I don't know if I can get through his writing. As a Celto-German myself I despise this man for what he did to my people.

>>22941707
>As a Celto-German myself I despise this man for what he did to my people.
Brought civilization to a bunch of mud-hut inhabiting savages?

>>22941511
Miror qua de causa homosexualitatem ubique invenire possis –etiam cum nulla sit. Fortasse aliquid cinaedi in temet ipso habes.

>>22941707
>waaaah we lost
should've stayed on your side of the Rhine

>>22941699
Yep. I'm a pretty slow reader and it's taken me about a month to get here with 30-40 minutes a day. I reread a few chapters about 3 times then move on, my goal is just to get as much Latin as I can and hopefully understand most of what I've read. I can see very much why people praised his prose, it doesn't get boring or ever repetitive but he manages to keep it simple. I'll probably get to book 3 or 4 before I move onto either the Attic Nights or Livy. Though being able to read Livy properly is my end goal for Latin since as far as I'm aware outside of people showing off, most prose Classical or Medieval should be readable at that point.
>>22941707
I think it's a bit silly to have personal feelings about events which have happened over 2000 years ago.

>>22941763
Equidem eam non ubique invenio, modo in imaginis conditoris fili.

>>22941791
>it's a bit silly to have personal feelings about events which have happened over 2000 years ago.
No culture mcgee

>>22941707
Civilized us and brought us into the future.

>>22941855
>Nooo you can't build out of wood
Lmao wut

>>22941707
>As a Celto-German myself I despise this man for what he did to my people.
t. amerimuttus qui heri suum 23andme legens invenit se esse 0.0002% celtam

>>22941713
At least I could build that mud hut myself and not have too many neighbors

>>22941878
Turns out your neightbors where the Romans, though luck.

ὡς ἀφελόντες μεν πίεσιν γ' ἀποβάλλομεν ἡμεῖς
και μην γαρ τῳ χθες μέλλει μόνος το ἔθος
οὐδε τοσοῦτον ἔνεστι που ἡμῖν ἐξικνέσθαι
ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ δ' ἤδη εἶναι οἱ ὄντες ἀεί
ἔλαιον ἐστὶν ὁ λόγος

Tang poem by 李柯. 艾絲歷六首,一
陌上非相會
彼此同知規
緣分我所思
旁人皆不配

永不汝放棄
此世無相比
永不亂跑歸
永愛不止息

>>22941810
Quare hac in imagine homosexualitatem invenis? Es qui homosexualitatem ubique invenias, quia cinaedus tu ipse es, ergo eam innocenti in imagine equorum invenis.

>>22942309
I recognize “Kai Eliauo something logos.” This is from Aristotle or the Bible?

>>22941693
I think I've gotten to the point now that inflections are so engraved in my brain that a few weeks wouldn't make me forget. Simply get to that point. Even in a depressive spiral, surely you could force yourself to go through some flashcards for five minutes, right?

Sicut et angelus inclementior, fi, puer, lautus

>>22942579
>Sicut et
Why not just say sicut?

>>22942592
For the meter

>>22942603
>vade in roboto

床前明月光。
疑是地上霜。
舉頭望明月。
低頭思故鄉。

處世若大夢。
胡爲勞其生。
所以終日醉。
頹然臥前楹。

How do Greekanons memorize the accents on the words? Also what is a good video where someone speaks either in the Erasmian or Attic scheme?

So how actually bad is to read ancient Greek texts with modern Greek pronunciation? I like the bizarre continuity the language has but from what I've found it'll be about impossible, is it right?

>>22942792
Pitch accent becomes stress accent with very few changes to position. Anons using modern Greek pronunciation just put the accents on the right syllables and then memorize what type of accent it is. It isn't even hard, since most accents are predictable based on morphology, with only a few minimal pairs.
Anons using reconstructed pitch accent just render the word as said. How do you remember stress in English?

>>22942792
>memorize the accents
Good one

>>22942802
It'll sound retarded.

>>22942802
It ruins poetry but is perfectly acceptable for prose.

>>22942809
>How do you remember stress in English
By listening. It's shitty having to remember where stresses go from reading and it gets worse when you realize stress reconstructions we're a guessing game.

>>22942818
>stress reconstructions we're a guessing game
Please stop conflating imperfect but evidence-based reconstruction schemes with pure guesses, especially when word stress is almost always preserved in Modern Greek today.

>>22942809
Not sure if I follow. Users of Modern Greek pronuntiation just stress the syllables as they see the accents? If so, yes, that would be easy, but mostly what confuses me is the pitch since I've heard that the pitch does nothing in short vowels

>>22942811
>It'll sound retarded.
Why?
>>22942812
Ah, really?

>>22942858
>Why?
https://voca.ro/11MwPi7bboko
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me prov'd,
I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd.

>>22942858
Yes. Classical and modern greek have utterly different rhythms. This may not make sense to you as an uninitiated and likely a monolingual, but Latin and Greek poetry is based on rhythm and not on rhyme. You will not be able to hear the meter with modern greek pronunciation.

>>22942832
>evidence based

This is how I know you haven't read the works of 19th century philologists. And modern Greek doesn't "preserve" it. Both Greeks got their stresses semi-standardized at the same time period. This isn't an ancient craft, it's the work of pseuds.

Need evidence? Try to pronounce the uncommon but occurrent macron+rising stress please, particularly that of the omega-iota combination. If that's not evidence enough for you then you're living in a schizo headspace.

Pseuds were all about this so much they literally developed names for each type of stress over each type of letter. No, I'm not joking. Being in year one of Greek is going to fill you with naivete until you get to the history of how Greek was presented after the 19th century.

>>22941363
Thanks, I've read Mary Wollstonecraft. She was pretty based with her whole, 'please oppress us women only a tiny bit less.' I also read Charlotte Gilman's "Yellow Wallpaper" but it seemed more spooky story than philosophy. I've basically never heard of any of the rest of these. Who are the most important and influential?

>>22942951
Had to read both for college. Both were shitty "I'm l'oppressed wealthy woman being asked (not told) to rest and I'm also a schizo with mental health issues but these things are all men's fault" type deals.

Also, stop shitting up random threads with your femschizo bullshit.

>>22942802
It's what the Greeks themselves already do.

I can't stop thinking about learning Old Norse
Feels bad man

>>22943025
And don't they have any troubles with it?

It's just hilarious how the natives use their native pronunciation for their very conservative native language and then the amerimutt comes in with his U LOOSE DA RHOOME.

>>22943215
I haven't heard about any, at least.

>>22943331
So is it basically this >>22943225?

If I have to learn cursive and some 16th century clerical hand in another goddamn language I'm going to shit.

>>22942792

The youtuber Podium-Arts is the gold standard for reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation

>>22943225
It's factually true that you lose the entire poetic meter. It simply has no audible expression in modern greek pronunciation. This is not particular to Greek: 平仄 often has no audible expression in Mandarin, for example. You can decide for yourself how much these things matter, but it is just a fact that the ancient greeks used a quantitative meter that is not audible in modern greek.

>>22942552
It's actually from both

>>22943400
>LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE
>SEE WHAT DAT GERMAN BRO WROTE? ITS DA TRUT
What causes it? Do they actually believe they're sane?

>>22943415
And what about you? You think Greek has not changed in the slightest in 2500 year or something?

>>22943415
So how do you explain Roman and Greek poetic meter?

>>22943415
Sorry, but your ancestors were different from you in all sorts of ways. Your grandparents, if they're alive, likely don't sound the same as you. Stretch this out over thousands of years, and it'd be surprising if your very distant ancestors didn't sound quite different. I don't see what's so difficult about this.

>>22943428
He probably thinks it's a German conspiracy.

>>22943415
What language?
Your language is Ancient Greek?
Fuck off

>lit mi till you about TRVE Grik pronunciation
aight
>https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%BC%CE%B7%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%AF_%CE%8E%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9/XXIII._%CE%95%CE%B9%CF%82_%CE%94%CE%AF%CE%B1
>[play]
wow, such rhythm, very poetry

>>22943427
>>22943428
>>22943438
>>22943440
>>22943446
>instant meltdown
Why are amerimutts so mad on people having actual history?

>>22943496
Mine are older than yours, you drooling retard. Not that you care, you just want to bait people and jack off over the feeling of having wasted the time of people who enjoy their lives and want to learn things. Know that you're below the cockroaches I crush beneath my shoes, and that you'll suffer a fate worse than them.

>BRO ITS DA JOOZ CREATED DA RHOOME OUR GREEK-AMERICAN AND AMERICAN-ROMAN ANCESTORS JUST HAD MAGIC VOWELS FOR POETRY DAT NOW ARE SOMEHOW LOST EVERYWHERE JUST LISTEN TO ME BRO

>>22943525
>magic vowels
There are many living languages that have vowel length, consonant gemination, and moraic timing, and use quantitative meter for poetry. Cypriot Greek even still has consonant gemination. There is even the curious case of Serbian and Croatian, wherein the former retains strong a vowel length distinction and a pitch accent (!) and even educated speakers of the latter, similar as it is, are losing these things.

>>22943446
Reconstructed historical English, French, and German also sound funny to native speakers, because it's funny hear your native language spoken in a novel and necessarily artificial way, and yet most of them don't have any trouble getting it through their heads that their ancestors sounded different. I don't see what your point is. See https://youtu.be/YiblRSqhL04?si=j0sZFuOPCb-jbhwZ

>>22942802
modern greek doesn't follow the prosodic rules of ancient greek, so reading poetry in meter becomes impossible. greek poets also like to use onomatopoetic words to furnish their writing which gets lost in translation when reading it with modern pronunciation.

>>22941707
this is the difference between us and niggers, when someone colonizes us we don't complain about it and act like niggers we appreciate the gifts and lessons and use them to make ourselves better

>>22943525
>>22943415
Kek these look like actual quotes from Erasmitard.

agricola agrum arātrō arat

>>22944002
I can approve of Roman civilization while also thinking murdering and enslaving millions of my ancient kinsmen was a dick move.

dum arātrum ā bovibus vehitur, sēmina sēminat hortulānus.

>>22944395
>murdering and enslaving millions of my ancient kinsmen
kek half your 'kinsmen' were allied with the Romans and subjugated the other half with pleasure
fucking retard

>Here Priam, as he himself now sees the nearby death, deeply moved with ire, exclaims: "And for such wickedness may the celestial gods render thee thy due rewards, who hast foully killed a son before his father!" This done, the weak old man launched the spear uselessly, which could not hurt Pyrrhus, but clung to his shield in vain. To whom Pyrrhus said, "Now die!" and dragged the trembling old man, slipping in the blood of his son, to that area where, holding the hair of his head with his left hand, lifted his sword on high with his right and thrust it into the side of the king!

>>22944395
if we didn't submit and lost, than we deserve it. If your civilization is not great enough to protect yourself from colonization then it needs to be done away with and replaced with said superior civilization. Again this is what separates us from niggers, we strive to better ourselves hence we came out on top, niggers are content with being niggers.

> for...and...for...also...for....one on one hand...one the other...for...
This is like reading an essay paper by some vocablet student that begins every single sence with "Also"

>>22944569
Tace.

>>22942792
To be entirely truthful, I don't.
I don't find it is very important to reading, and where it is important (ἤ/ἦ), you'll remember it. It is important to know the rules of where the accents can be, though.

>>22942809
If you don't use the impossible, retarded modern pronunciation but also are not autistic enough to try pitch, you end up with a situation where often you cannot stress the accented syllable because it's on a short vowel and there are long vowels in the word.

Oh and please desist from being baited, all of you. You already let the last thread become retard-city with the conlang faggot and now you're being baited by the eternal "linguistics isn't real trust me I don't know anything about it" mongoloid. Desist at once.

>>22944919
>the eternal "linguistics isn't real trust me I don't know anything about it" mongoloid
These people are called "Greeks," anon. You know, that one people whose language you imply to be learning.

>>22944930
Only response I'll give you: Do you think proto-Germanic, which is in fact younger than classical/Attic Greek, had the same pronunciation as modern German, Dutch, Norwegian, and English? Note that all these languages sound quite different.
So it is with the various Greek dialects there are now. You're just like a chauvinistic modern Athenian that tells a Pontic Greek or Cypriot speaker he's pronouncing the language incorrectly. There's a 2500 year gap. It is utterly inconceivable that it be pronounced in the same way. Iotacism just is hard proof of that.
I doubt you even know any of these terms, though. You're just baiting and arguing in bad faith. Go ruin a thread that deserves it, you faggot.

>>22944941
>amerimutt calls an actual language "impossible" and "retarded" while being fascinated by a totally made up tokipona-tier shit
It's the peak of the Erasmian retardation, I guess.

You will never be a real pronunciation. You have no speakers, you have no history, you have no literature. You are a homosexual newspeak twisted by drugs and surgery into a crude mockery of nature’s perfection.
All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your teachers are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “derivatives” laugh at your ghoulish phonemes behind closed doors.
Natives are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of speaking have allowed natives to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even reconstructions that “pass” sounds uncanny and unnatural to a native. Your stress structure is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy speaking you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your diseased, infected vowel length.
You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.
Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and plunge into the cold abyss. Your creators will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you with a headstone marked with your birth name, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a newspeak is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a page on Wiki that is unmistakably made up.
This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

>>22944962
gemmest gemmy gem

Why do Erasmian shills think the Greek alphabet was phonemic in the first place? The retard itt himself mentioned that the language has and had a shit tone of different dialects, how the fuck their speakers would pronounce the same letters uniformly? Meanwhile that babble ("hurr durr different letters can't be pronounced the same") is basically all on what Erasmian newspeak is based.
Besides, of course, the even more meme "vi-vi" argument, as English "bark" and Russian "gav" for barking are entirely the same just like all animal sounds in all human languages.

>>22944520
Did Pyrrhus receive a divine punishment later?

What the fuck does a dative aorist participle even mean?

>>22943446
Wait, is it just me or is she pronouncing the rough breathing but otherwise reading it in modern pronunciation?

>>22944943
If Ancient Greek sounded the same as Modern Greek then explain:
>Why did the ancients come up with six different ways to spell the "ee" sound and then consistently spell some words with one and some words with another?
>Why did ancient Greek sheep go "vee vee"?
>Why did the Romans transliterate Φ as PH when they already had F?
>Why did ancient poets consistently place certain vowels in certain positions if they were always pronounced the same?
>Why did they invent three different accent marks if it was always a single stress accent?
>Why did they invent the rough breathing if there was never an /h/ there?
>Why do ΠΤΚ become ΦΘΧ before a rough breathing if the latter were always fricatives?
>Why did ancient authors literally describe the pronunciation of their language in ways that are different from modern Greek?

>>22945133
>Meanwhile that babble ("hurr durr different letters can't be pronounced the same") is basically all on what Erasmian newspeak is based.
So why did they consistently spell some words with one and some words with another, and only start mixing them up later? How did they decide which words to spell with which in the first place? And why did the Romans transliterate them differently if they were pronounced the same? Why does Coptic use them to stand for different sounds that are distinct even today?

>>22944943
Modern Greek pronunciation is impossible (as in, fails to distinguish necessary words from one another consistently) for Ancient Greek, numbnuts. I could impress this upon you if you had any knowledge of the language in question, but you don't and you're just baiting.
I am also not American and I know six languages.

>>22944962
lmao, very nice
However, nobody learns Ancient Greek to speak it, least of all to speak it to Greeks, so it kind of falls flat in that regard.

>>22945190
e.g. ἐλθόντι, "to/for the one who came".
You could profitably regard participles as verbs that fulfil an adjective's function, and then those adjectives sometimes get used in the predictive position. See, for example, "coming", "the coming man", "the man is coming", "the man that is coming". Only, in Greek, this participal function can be used not only in the present, but in any tense. So you can just as easily produce "the came man" as "the coming man" ("the man who is coming"), as "the man who has come (and is still here)" for the perfect.
If you get this, applying the cases to it is not difficult, so you can have "to the came man", ἐλθόντι ἀνθρώπῳ.
I don't know how much of this you actually wanted, but whatever.

>>22941707
you sound like a LARPing faggot. i seriously don't believe you care about what someone did 2000 years ago to your ancestors

How long does the Homeric Greek book take to finish if you bang at it for an hour a day, every day?

>>22945283
>I don't know how much of this you actually wanted, but whatever.
I appreciate it, this helps

>>22945378
3 months if you have a good grasp of Latin
5 months if you're starting from scratch

>>22945190
Read Aristotle's Categories to understand the foundation of modern linguistics.

today i remind them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJZCVemn-4

>>22946207
>over two hours long
Feel free to tl;dr

>>22946207
>2:11:59
TL;DW?

>>22945378
Mentula in imagine ista plane ridicula est.

>>22945378
You might achieve better results if you combine it with Athenaze or Logos, eg 30 minutes a day of each. Homeric Greek does not include enough reading exercises for you to acquire any significant reading speed, no matter how hard you work at that book.
That said, three months is a good number.

>>22946424
Well damn, I was hoping to use it to jump start grammar and some of the vocabulary and go straight into Homer, which was my main goal.

>>22946524
Homeric Greek is a fine book for that, but you still need practice reading to be comfortable reading.
Apply this logic to another subject: can you learn to solve integrals by reading about integration but doing only a handful of problems? How many problems do you think you need in order to get comfortable with 101-level single-variable integrals?
Now bring it back to Greek. How many pages do you think you need to read at a pace greater than 5-10 lines/hour?

>>22946530
I was looking into the anki grind (god help me) to speed it up and go straight in with a healthy vocabulary and good chunk of grammar. It works well enough for modern languages.

>>22946541
If you've got a method in mind, go ahead. I'll just warn you that the Anki grind is less effective with Ancient Greek due to the lack of audio, and add that neither will the Anki grind get you right into reading in modern languages without some serious scaffolding, ie reading The Little Prince or such again.
I do really highly recommend Italian Athenaze and/or Logos as a supplement (not a sole resource) to Homeric Greek. They're more engaging than that book, can be passively read on your commute, and will leave you with a reading speed that's closer to a third of your native language than a thirtieth.

>>22946589
I gues I should go with Athenaze, holy shit Homeric Greek is boring.

生而知之者,上也
學而知之者,次也
困而學之,又其次也
困而不學,民斯爲下矣!

>>22946610
Logos is equally good. Maybe try both.
I found Pharr's digressions entertaining for my own part, but there's no way to go right from his book to reading Homer any faster than 20-30 minutes per five lines. That's a problem.

>>22946623
Next thread 困而不學 edition

tua mater homosexualis est

>>22946795
Qualis mater? Mihi sunt duae

सन्तीह काश्चन संस्कृतभाषकाः?

>>22946811
Igitur, Anone, profecto ambae matres homosexuales sunt? Nisi tibi mater (una, nec ambae) mascula est.

>>22945257
>come up with six different ways to spell
>place certain vowels in certain positions
>three different accent marks
Ghoti.
>"vee vee"
"bark bark"
>rough breathing
Not a thing.
>ancient authors
Neither Erasmitard nor your amerimutt school teacher are ancients.
Now the question, why do you amerishart tell a people how to speak its language?
>>22945261
Ghoti.
>>22945283
>reeeeeeeee
Another amerimutt went insane. Sad.

>>22946964
> Ghoti
Yeah, guess why English spelling is so fucked? It's exactly because every other word was once pronounced differently.

>>22946934
Sed mihi quoque multi sunt patres

>>22946975
So?... Think for a while, mr. amerishit.

>>22946964
>Ghoti
Really bad example. All you're doing is pointing out another case of orthography capturing an earlier stage of phonetics.

>>22946987
And why do you think said captured state was not proto-proto-Mycenean but not just a Classical dialect but exactly Attic Classical Greek and nothing else (not saying about Koine that's absolutely confirmed to be entirely the same as modern Greek), mr. amerigolem?

>>22946964
Explain how tens of thousands of lines of Homer, a preliterate poet, plus hundreds of thousands of lines of poets after him all through the classical period, obey complicated rules of quantitative meter that are totally inaudible in Modern Greek pronunciation.
Do not post Shakespeare or Racine as before, because all you are doing is giving another example of language changing. The difference is only that Anglos and Francophones appreciate and even laud those who research the history of their languages and sell out tickets to Shakespearean performances in David Crystal's reconstructed pronunciation, knowing that while it's necessarily imperfect, it helps us to understand just a bit more some of the greatest texts ever written.
Don't pull the Amerimutt thing either. I'm not American: I just have vastly better English than you ever will.

>>22947004
>not saying about Koine that's absolutely confirmed to be entirely the same as modern
The letter Ypsilon. Also vowel length and consonant gemination, the latter of which the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots still realize in all of their speech.

>>22946227
>>22946231
If I remember correctly
>negro professor turns Classics conference into a struggle session
>muh racism, muh dead white males, muh Classics inherently bigoted
>his main grievance being two niggers were asked for ID at a conference somewhere
>the solution being more diversity, equity and inclusion, even at the expense of more worthy students and instructors
>in Q&A attendee takes issue with this
>panel is hostile
>attendee says Classics and academia should be based on merit
>says negro may have gotten job due to being black but she prefers to think he got it due to having earned it
>negro leaps on this
>it's his shining moment, the one he has been waiting for his entire race-baiting career - the Classics ghetto lottery
>attendee is removed
>panel denounces her
>in the following days and weeks the entire Classics world bends over backwards to deplore this horrible incident
>the slurping of nigger toes echoes throughout Classics departments worldwide
>the negro goes on to write an article saying that he should have been hired because he is black and others should be hired because they are black
>cue the applause and laudation
>this incident is trotted out as proof Classics is racist and needs more DEI
tl;dr niggers (and women) ruin everthing

>>22947013
>obey complicated rules of quantitative meter
Lmao they don't you freak. Have you even listen to your own squeaking? It sounds indeed worse for poems than the Greek pronunciation (because it's made up and had been never used by anybody).
>>22947021
>letter Ypsilon
Representing [i], yep.
>vowel length
Not a thing in any Indo-European language.
>consonant gemination
You caught me.
>>22947027
>>negro professor turns Classics conference into a struggle session
>>muh reconstruction, muh dead meter, muh the Greek pronunciation of Greeks inherently bigoted

>>22947027
Huh. Good thing I'm not a part of that community of self-analingus-ing illiterate faggots and thus don't have to deal with their periods and their daily meltdowns.

>>22947004
To answer more completely your question about a subject about which it's obvious that you've willfully studied nothing: we cannot know exactly what Socrates or Plato sounded like, but we can come reasonably close to understanding how the language broadly must have changed over a long period of time. Moreover, we can apply this knowledge to appreciate different dimensions of texts than orthodox adherence to one pronunciation scheme would reveal.
For example, if eta is always transcribed as an e-sound and always produces a long syllable in complicated rules of quantitative meter, then which explanation is more feasible?
>the sounds of the language changed over time, with some phonetic features lost and some added
>every poet for a period of a thousand years, including ones who could not read or write, made up complicated rules with no audible realization, and followed them perfectly for no reason
If you choose to read all these poets in Modern Greek pronunciation, obviating the meter, then that is your prerogative. There are even advantages to doing so.
The headache in speaking with you is that I am all for teaching Modern Greek pronunciation to first-years, and only getting into reconstructions later. I think that is does make the important point that the Greek language is a continuing tradition, and that it standardizes things so that students across different schools actually to understand each other. Reconstructed pronunciations are tools to come closer to certain texts. I have learned Baroque prononciation of Racine and reconstructed pronunciation of Chaucer perfectly well and continue to apply those schemes only to those authors and never to my daily speech, and Greek students can do the same for Homer just as well. The problem is that your insistence that we never try to come closer in this way to certain features of very important texts is anti-intellectual and dangerous.

It's amazing how it only takes a single troll to draw a thread into the mud. And just like that, it's the Latin discussion that's the comfy one.

For Latin, it was the textbook shitfest,
for Greek, see exhibit A in this thread,
for Hebrew, the "medieval language" schizo,
for Chinese, the DONOT bores.
Arabic, Sanskrit, Old Norse, and Ge'ez are still unscathed, but mainly because it's a single guy screaming into the void.

Do any of you guys use a program like FLTR, LUTE or FTR?

>>22947083
>it only takes a single troll to draw a thread into the mud.
This unironically wouldn't be a problem if everybody here exclusively posted in classical languages.

>>22947094
go to your discord if you want that

>>22947074
>yooooooooooooooor uuuuuuuunceeeeeestoooooooors weeeeeeeereeeeeee aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall ryyyyyyyyyyyyyyytaaaaaaards
Thanks for revealing sir. What connection does it have to you making up some horrifically sounding babble and pushing it as something real destroying the actual language though?

>>22947047
>Lmao they don't you freak. Have you even listen to your own squeaking? It sounds indeed worse for poems than the Greek pronunciation (because it's made up and had been never used by anybody).
I confess that if I heard someone using reconstructed pronunciation for Corneille, Racine, or Shakespeare without knowing what was going on, I too would laugh at them and tell them to fuck off. Since I know the research and know what is going on, I instead celebrate their kind effort to illuminate new aspects of these immortal writers for us, and enjoy the inherent strangeness of hearing these languages I use every day rendered in such a way. I do this because I understand that languages change and I am not anti-intellectual. Or do you believe that Racine, or worse still, Villon, Rabelais, Rutebeuf, and Montaigne spoke just like me? Because then you are truly beyond hope, if you will hypocritically try to tell me about my own language.

>>22947047
>Not a thing in any Indo-European language
So I suppose Sanskrit, Hindustani, Serbian, German and fucking French until not long ago, and still in Quebec are all just haha pretending? And that is just to name a few. I would ask you to hear a Quebec person pronounce maître vs mettre, but you are too braindead to speak French.

>>22947105
When have I called your ancestors retards? I am only calling you a retard. And I am only advocating for the destruction of your language insofar as I would like to stop hearing from you specifically.

>>22947105
No, your ancestors were a universal light to humanity. You are a shame living upon their graves.
That is assuming you are a Greek. If not, this is even sadder.

>>22947113
>German
>French
It's qualitative, don't care about amerishart babble.
>Serbian, Sanskrit, Hindustani
Made up by amerigolems in all these languages because there was no tradition of speaking them in actual normal way in Europe.

How much more bait are you going to eat until you're satisfied? Leave some for us too.

>>22947137
He can't help it
This general must be the easiest one to bait in the whole catalogue

>>22947124
>eeeeeeeeeveeeeeeeeryyyyyyyyyboooooodyyyyyyyyy waaaaaaaaaas speeeeeeeeaaaaaaakiiiiiiiiiing thiiiiiiiiiiiiis waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy (liiiiiiiiiikeeeeeee aaaaaaaaa reeeeeeeeetaaaaaaaard) beeeeeeeeeefooooooooreeeeeeee truuuuuuuuust meeeeeee siiiiiiiiiir

>>22947134
I am not American or even Anglo. I nevertheless know much better English than you ever will. Cry.
>Made up by amerigolems in all these languages because there was no tradition of speaking them in actual normal way in Europe.
Thank you for revealing that you are a troll who believes Serbian to be made up. Also, Czech, Slovak, Norwegian, Dutch. Sorry that you have never left your village.

>>22947150
Lmao you're called an amerigolem not because anybody thinks you're a citizen of the JewS or have a good Jewglish but because you westoids are all buck broken by amerimutts and kikes with their globohomo terrorism destroying Aryan cultures, partly through making up such kikish Semitic shit like vowel length for our languages.

>>22947094
Hoc modo nulla de lingua nisi Latina vel Graeca scribitur. Numquam discam linguam Aethiopicam, at nuntios Ethiopanon auctoris libenter legebam.

>>22947165
Okay, so you are just a schizo who thinks that Hebrew has vowel length but Dutch, Czech, and Hindi don't, because you have never heard them. I am sorry that you have never left your village and need to take it out by arguing about the classics that your teachers never succeeded in making you read.

>>22946817
Indo-Aryan family /clg/entlemen are the rarest posters on /clg/ sadly, you are welcome to join friend, though I'm not sure if there's anyone else learning Sanskrit, a few threads ago I think there may have been one, most of us are Greek+Latin learners, some chinese anons, some hebrew anons, Ethiopianon for ancient afro-asiatic ones

>>22947180
>im a kike
Ok, glad it's settled.

>>22947191
I fling what I clean from under my foreskin at you, baboon.

>>22947180
Why do you even keep replying to him? He's either a troll or a drooling retard. Either way you won't convince him of anything and he'll keep ruining the thread as long as people give him attention

>>22947180
you'd be surprised by how realistic the possibility that he's serious is, balkanites are probably only second to indians in how pathetically schizo-tier defensive they get about the "soil-identity" associated to them, which they believe gives them magic psychic abilities to be experts in anything regarding the site just by virtue of living there
the blabbering about americans tells me he's probably precisely this kind of monkey who thinks anyone who is serious about the matter of ancient greek phonology but disagrees with braindead locals must have secondary political reasons for it
just don't bother replying to him anymore

>>22947209
>>22947206
You are right. Good night, /clg/.

>>22947209
> balkanites are probably only second to indians in how pathetically schizo-tier defensive they get about the "soil-identity" associated to them
Honorable mention to Arabs, with the 12 million words shit.
I wonder what causes this. Italians mostly use ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin, but they seem much more chill with admitting that they're only using it because of inertia.

>>22947209
I bet he speaks in demotic.

>>22947251
>the 12 million words shit.
What is this?

I should make my own "translation" of a fragmentary work.

>>22947209
>>22947251
>LET ME TELL YOU HOW TO SPEAK YOUR LANGUAGE
LMAOOO THEY FINALLY SAID IT FUCKING SUBHUMANS

>>22947256
http://lughat.blogspot.com/2013/12/does-arabic-have-most-words-dont.html
tl;dr: Someone calculated the number of possible Semitic roots, idiots promptly picked up that absurd number as the actual word count of the language, getting thrown around on the Internet ever since.
In the blog post's comments a Greek makes an appearance with an equally absurd word count.

>>22947283
Demotic is very much a different language than Attic anon. Maybe if you spoke in a less debased way you'd have more authority.

>>22947283
Nobody is telling you how to speak your language, because your language is not the language of Plato or Homer. My language is not that of Montaigne or Villon either. Get over it.

>>22947251
A feeling of geopolitical defeat does mysterious things to the brain. It's fascinating how East Asians are right on the brink with this. You have retards and you have normal people with normal curiosity.

>>22947287
> http://lughat.blogspot.com/2013/12/does-arabic-have-most-words-dont.html
> Look man I need proof of wht ur saying ur these word counts are wrong I need proof u think I'm dumb I'll take what ever u say srry man but I can believe this none sense if u have no proof look bro I'm arab.and my grand father was one of the best Arabic teachers in my country so Ik that wht ur saying isn't true
Now I don't know what to believe.

>>22946964
>Ghoti.
What's that have to do with it? (Also 'ghoti' is a bullshit example- 'gh' is only 'f' after vowels, and 'ti' is only 'sh' before vowels and not at the beginning of a word)
>Not a thing.
What do you mean not a thing? It's literally a part of the apparatus of diacritics that's been handed down to us for classical Greek. You can see them on any document. Why do they exist if they never made a sound?
>Neither Erasmitard nor your amerimutt school teacher are ancients.
There are literally ancient authors who describe pronunciation, for example saying that ΒΓΔΦΘΧ are stops like ΠΤΚ.
>>22947004
Late Koine was quite similar to modern Greek, but not exactly the same.
>>22947047
>Lmao they don't you freak.
ΟE are considered short and ΩΗ are considered long. Can you find instances of them being used where the metrical rules say they shouldn't be?
>Representing [i], yep.
Then why did the Romans literally borrow the letter to spell Greek words with Υ when they already had I? They did borrow EΙ as I, because by that point it had already merged, but not Υ or Η.
>Not a thing in any Indo-European language.
There are literally living Indo-European languages with vowel length. Quite a few of them actually.
>muh the Greek pronunciation of Greeks inherently bigoted
Nobody is saying that, stop inventing strawmen. Modern Greek pronunciation is perfectly valid, it's just not how the ancients talked.

>>22947345
This is all very well, but see >>22947206

Is it true Athenaze in English is worthless and I should try to check it in Italian instead?

>>22947348
The point of debate isn't to convince your interlocutor, it's to convince third parties who are watching/reading.

>>22947354
I wouldn't say it's worthless, but rather pointless. There's a guide for how and why to use the Italian edition in the FAQ. Logos now removes the need to do even that: it's a perfectly fine textbook in Ancient Greek only.

>>22947357
We appreciate the effort, bur he's already ended up with a huge egg on his face by being humiliated into making statements like
>Czech and Dutch are made up by jooz

bobby brown in Ancient Greek
Χαίρετε, ὦνδρες, Ἀλκιβιάδης εἰμί
ὃν κάλλιστον εἶναι τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει φασί
ὁ μέν μοι ἵππος ὠκὺς οἱ δὲ ὀδόντες στιλπνοί
πάσας τὰς κόρας τἀμὰ κοχώνα κελεύω κυνεῖν
ἔνθ' ἐν κλεινῇ παιδεύσει πέλομαι
ἐπιειμένος καλῶς δὴ σεμνύνομαι
ὀρχηστρὶς δέ τις ὧδέ μοι ἔνι
εἰς τὴν διατριβήν μοι ἀρῆξαι βουλομένη
ἐάσω τὸ πᾶν αὐτὴν ποιεῖν
κᾆτα βίᾳ πειράσομαι βινεῖν
νὴ τοὺς θεοὺς καλὸς κἀγαθός εἰμι
κοὐδέν, οἶμαι, εἰς τοὔσχατον πρόειμι
καὶ ὡραῖος δῆτα καὶ τὸ ἦθος ποικίλος
ἐργάσομαι καὶ τελέσω εἰς τῶν πλουσίων τὸ σμῆνος
(θητεύσω εὖ θητεύσω εὖ θητεύσω εὖ θητεύσω εὖ)
αἱ Ἐκκλησιάζουσαι
ὑπῆλθον λάθρᾳ πᾶν ἀνὰ τὸ ἄστυ
κἀγὼ ἑτοῖμος, ἠμί, ἦν ἀντικρὺ οὐδαμῆ
ἐπεὶ διεμήρισα τριβάδα ᾗ ὄνομα ἦν Φρύνη
λὀγον τινὰ ἐποίησατο τότε
ἰού· ἐπειράθη ἵνα εἴπω πότε
ἀπήχθετο τοῖν ὀρχέοιν ἀλλ’ ἀφῆκε τὴν ψωλήν
ὅμως ἐντέταται ἀλλὰ προΐησι κατὰ σπουδήν
νὴ τοὺς θεοὺς καλὸς κἀγαθός εἰμι
ἀλλ’ ὄζω νῦν ἐλαίου δή
ἄθλιός τε καὶ κάθαρμα κατέστην
πότερον οὐκ οἶδα θῆλυ ἢ ἔρσην
(θαυμάζω, θαυμάζω, θαυμάζω, θαυμάζω)
ἐξῆλθον τοίνυν κροσσωτὸν ὠνησόμενος
μετήλλαξα τὴν ἔσθην χαρίεις γενόμενος
μισθοῦ ὑπεκυρηξάμην ᾠδὰς ἀοιδῶν
κοὐδεὶς τῶν ῥαψῳδῶν ἔγνω ὡς πασχητιῶ
τέλος δὴ μετά φίλου του
ἐξωκείλαμεν εἰς τὸ ἑταιρεῖν ὁμοῦ

>>22947415
διαρκοίην ἂν ὥραν ἐν τῷ ὀλισβοκόλλικι
ἐφ’ ᾧ οὐρήσουσιν ἐπ’ ἐμὲ ὥσπερ πυρὶ
νὴ τὸν θεὸν καλὸς κἀγαθός εἰμι
ἀτράκτῳ τὴν ἕδραν βεβυσμένος ἕως κεκράγοιμι
καὶ τὸ πᾶν ποιήσω ἵνα τίς με λειχἀσῃ
ἀγρυπνῶ λέγων "χάριν οἶδα τῇ Φρύνῃ"
ὢ θεοὶ ὢ θεοὶ ὡς ἔκπαγλός εἰμι
διὰ τὴν Φρύνην αἰεὶ βινητιῶ
καὶ ὄνομά μοι ἐστὶ Ἀλκιβιάδης
ἴδετέ με, κλέος ἔσται μοι
καὶ ὄνομά μοι ἐστὶ Ἀλκιβιάδης
ἴδετέ με, κλέος ἔσται μοι
καὶ ὄνομά μοι ἐστὶ Ἀλκιβιάδης
ἴδετέ με, κλέος ἔσται μοι
ᾔδειν δήπου ὑμᾶς ἐκπλαγησομένους

>>22947380
>>22947415
https://youtu.be/B1eQooBq10k

>>22947415
Now do it in an actual meter.

>>22945190
the case of a participle just means it matches the target the participle is acting on, ie look for the noun or w/e that has the dative case, that's what the participle is augmenting, like how adjectives have the same case as the thing they augment.

Aorist participle means the participle and participle clause is happening before the main clause. I just add "having" infront of the participle when translating.

>>22947415
shouldn't it be andres not hondres?

>>22947799
It's ôndres. Frequent contraction of ô andres. Read Lysias.

>>22947345
>There are literally ancient authors who describe pronunciation, for example saying that ΒΓΔΦΘΧ are stops like ΠΤΚ
May you post the names, dates, and links?

>>22947345
See this inscription, retard. Ω/Ο were always homophones

>>22947882
Fuck is it real? What about η and ι?

>>22947894
I'm sure you can find one

>>22947896
So is the reconstruction bullshit? Was this anon above right about globohomo pushing it?

>>22947906
Obviously. You know the Jewish playbook.

Reminder that a Jew is behind most linguistics.

>>22947930
>>22947938
Why do they do it?

>>22947944
Guess, you fucking retard. Why do Jews do anything they do?

>>22947882
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greek_alphabets
Learn about the subject you're spreading misinformation about. The fact of many alphabets in use proves how much Greek has changed, not the other way around. See Ἔδοξεν τῇ Βουλῇ καὶ τῷ Δήμῳ spelled Εδοχσεν τει Βολει και τοι Δεμοι on pixel. Try to explain that with modern greek pronunciation

>>22947955
>τοι δεμοι
Iota subscriptum deniers btfo

>>22947955
Kek kikes itt reaching

>>22947955
>explain that with modern greek pronunciation
??? All they sound /i/ in it wtf is neeed to be explained?

>>22947972
Modern Greek ῳ becomes /o/, not /i/. But the real smoking gun is χσ for ξ in. Εδοξεν. Here's also Χσανθιππο for Ξανθίππου. Note that this also suggests ου as /o:/, not /u:/, a likely actual mistake from Erasmus.

Here are also some alphabetic variations proving phonemic /h/, plenty of variation in /e/-type vowels, and eta being a front-mid beyond a shadow of a doubt.

>>22947988
>>22947982
Post foreskin kike

Vos anones efficitis, ut iam meam Latinitatem atque Hellenitatem denuo operari velim.

I took a Latin composition course once and did well in it, but that was a few years ago now and at the time I remember finding it difficult to find resources for translating English into Latin, other than the old textbook we were using. Obviously any English-Latin dictionary needs to be approached with caution, but does anyone have a suggestion?

>>22947982
I thought there was general agreement that ου had become /u:/, or something very close to it, by the classical period. I still read that in Allen's Vox Graeca. No doubt it was a true diphthong in Homer though.

>>22947990
Lol you are like a cornered animal

>>22948007
Reminder that linguistics was made by this kike

>>22947955
>>22947982
So may you post the grammarians you mentioned? Preferably in English if available.
NTA

>>22948019
No, it wasn't. Also, the question of ancient Greek pronunciation is very far from his theories of generative grammar. What we're dealing with here is very much applied historical linguistics, and it's a matter which must be decided purely with reference to empirical observation of the evidence.

>>22948028
Why did you seriously respond to that post?
Are you stupid?

>>22948031
idk but i am definitely procrastinating on much more important things

>>22948024
NTA either but here is proof enough of ΦΘΚ as stops.

>>22948028
Post foreskin

>>22948041
I'm not about them, I'm about the overall first-hand recommendations from the ancients themselves.

>>22948007
It had by the classical period according to Allen but reading ου as /u:/ in Homer and even lyric poets and early Attic is very likely ahistorical. I do it anyway because I use Modern Greek/Reuchlin pronunciation by default. It's just convenient. :^)

>>22948056
Right, and it's an interesting topic. I'd like to see them as well.

Linguistics is made by kikes to semiticize the West. "Social" "science" isn't science but kike worship and you kike worshippers sound ridiculous when you try to speak Greek and pretend you're speaking it the right way, and real greeks are being wrong. Post foreskin or gas chamber, now

>>22948058
Well we're on the same page then. Personally I'm an absolute autist about reconstructed pronunciation, myself. One of the few people who (usually) does it well, imo, is PodiumArts on YT. I think my way of reciitng Homer, at least, is pretty convincing (but yes, I pronounce it as I imagine an Athenian of the 5th century might have)

I also wonder, there were teachings how to pronounce contemporary Latin from the Roman times but were there such from the Renaissance? Before Erasmus, I mean.

>guys don't get baited
>gets baited

piscātor sum et pastōrēs odiō. ōtiōsī in agrīs, silvīs, campīs, atque rūris remaneant. cūrās nōn habent; sub umbrāculō arbōrum frūgiferārum, carmina fistulīs modulantur, et inter rosās et līlia saltant formōsæ puellæ rīdentēs ante eōs. at ego atrō in mare circumdor ā pīrātīs, prædōnibus et piscibus mortiferīs. sed amō ratem meam fidēlem. nōn infidēlis ut Galatēa. odiō pāstōrēs. dēcollentur ab ursīs.

I'm taking Classic Arabic for a year starting this February. Only a little experience with Persian. Anyone else?

no, i shan't be learning terrorism

>>22948281
Ok Neanderthal blood

>>22947626
It's called prose poetry, just like in the Psalms

>>22948425
Kek the meterkikes btfoed again it seems.

>>22948044
I'm surprised you still have yours. I thought the Turks ripped all of yours off.

>>22947993
Outside of textbooks I use: https://www.online-latin-dictionary.com/
I find the stem then go from there.

>>22945495
Good to hear.
I don't know which textbook you're using, but there might be some profit to be had in downloading Mastronarde even if you're not primarily using it just to haunt the index for grammatical explanations. I actually find myself still using it when I want to look something up about grammar, as it's very concise and to the point.

>>22946646
Do you know both Ancient Greek and Classical Chinese, anon? God help me, I've been getting attracted to CC after lurking in these threads for a while. It seems like it would be retarded to stack the mother of all difficult languages on top of the already precarious stack of languages I casually acquire and maintain, having to memorize a billion puzzle pieces and so on, so I'm wondering how you find the difficulty of learning CC to stack up against Greek? I rationally know there must be some limit to how many languages I can stack and balance without having the whole thing come down on my head, but I don't feel perhaps as discouraged by that as I should be.
How's the difficulty of memorizing little pictograms versus assimilating complex grammatical connections? Is learning CC something you can do without suffocating?

>>22946589
NTA but I'm reading at a speed of about 5-6 pages of Anabasis per 3 hours after having completed Mastronarde and reading for a few weeks. Are you really being serious with the "third of your native language" bit? Should I have done an entirely different course?

>>22946817
From the other anon I'm gathering you're asking about Sanskrit learners, or, anyway, I'm assuming it: I know Pāli but I cannot digest your jungle runes.

>>22948281
If you want to bomb kikes then it's only natural to learn from the masters of it

>>22948117
I'm the original guy who said that (I think?) and I've only responded to him twice, the post referencing proto-Germanic being the last.

>>22949100
I find it interesting how he says that the voiced consonants are in between the aspirates and the stops. As an English speaker I would have said that the stops were in between, especially with the way we distinguish strong and weak consonants.

>>22949308
new schizo theory: they were /bʰ/, /dʰ/ and /gʰ/ like in PIE

>>22949328
please no those consonants practically filtered me out of sanskrit.

>>22948755
Mastronarde is a great grammar. But yes, I am serious, and that's why I tell everyone to use a grammar and a reader together. Reading speed and comprehension cannot be practiced in any way other than by reading and rereading until they approach the limit of your native speed and comprehension. Athenaze and Logos provide very convenient tools for this. They are even useful for grinding once you've already completed another course. Then again, so is Xenophon. If you're enjoying reading now, I won't tell you to stop and pick up a less interesting book.

>>22948750
Yes, I'm the anon who made the CC guide (there are already a few things I'm stopping myself from changing about it) and I know CC and Greek in addition to others.
For my money, I think CC is harder than Greek or Latin, and I think Victor H Mair puts it well in these articles:
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=24459
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=34083
I also think he's however exaggerating, as professors who have seen unmotivated students flunk out repeatedly are wont to do. The early stages of learning CC are inherently harder than those of Greek or Latin, but from there, the key to any of those languages is just reading a lot, and that part has never felt like grueling work because it is such a pleasure to read Chinese texts in the original.
I would encourage you to take a look at Barnes and Van Norden. Barnes in particular gets you to some excellent poetry rather quickly. That will be a good gauge of whether or not you'll find it worth it.

>>22949328
That would explain their fricativization fairly cleanly:
Tangentially: late Middle Chinese voiced stops were aspirated, which is why their reflexes are aspirates in the overwhelming number of modern topolects without voiced stops

Another book recommendation for those curious about CC. It's in no way a language textbook, but a good look at the way the language works and why its beauty tends not to survive translation. It's an afternoon's read, one hour at most, and should help evaluate whether the language is worth it to you.

>>22948750
> on top of the already precarious stack of languages I casually acquire and maintain
What are they and how advanced are you in them? Always curious how far people can take this.

>>22948760
> I know Pāli
That's a new one here, I think. Are you a native speaker of a related language? Are you able to make sense of Sanskrit texts normally?

>>22948760
If you're asking about what the sentence meant, I simply intended it as "Are there any Sanskrit speakers here?" Although now that I've double-checked in the dictionaries, it looks like -bhāṣaka is normally used at the end of a compound to mean "speaking about," when I was just looking for a word meaning "speaker/language user." I guess "Is there anyone who talks about Sanskrit here" would also work, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind. So yes, as you can see, I'm still working on my knowledge. I think the root bhāṣ- should also be familiar to you from Pāli, though.

Assuming you're the same anon, I replied to you in my own thread. You claimed not to be interested in Hinduism, but you are surely interested in Buddhism, no?

>>22947993
if you need to brush up on the fundamentals, do the exercises in Learn Latin from the Romans by Dickey. It has hundreds of exercises that will force the structures into your psyche. There is no way you can finish the book without acquiring an instinct so to speak.

This article has the next steps: https://latinitium.com/latin-prose-composition-books-and-method/

I also recommend D'Ooge's two part Latin composition books. First one is based on Cesar's prose and the second on Cicero's. Can find these books by name on Google books or Archive.

>>22950134
Oh nice, I'll definitely check out Dickey's book when I have the time. I went through about half (alas) of her Greek prose comp book last summer.

>� � alpha drama ������
Why the fuck doesn't A Reading Course in Homeric Greek use normal characters that you can copy paste

>>22949100
>>22949308
>>22949328
Doesn't he just imply these were fricatives? It's impossible for normal voiced stops to be called in-between of non-voiced.

I forgot how much I love Prometheus Bound
That was my favourite play when I started with the Greeks 10 years ago and it still is my favourite play to this day

>When I ...... like a torrent with the roar of a great storm, in the capture of a citadel in Elam ......, I can understand what their spokesman answers. By origin I am a son of Sumer; I am a warrior, a warrior of Sumer. Thirdly, I can conduct a conversation with a man from the black mountains. Fourthly, I can do service as a translator with an Amorite, a man of the mountains ....... I myself can correct his confused words in his own language. Fifthly, when a man of Subir yells ......, I can even distinguish the words in his language, although I am not a fellow-citizen of his. When I provide justice in the legal cases of Sumer, I give answers in all five languages. In my palace no one in conversation switches to another language as quickly as I do.

First recorded /clg/ post, ca. 2000 BC

>>22946610
it gets good pretty quickly after you start translating Homer. the first few weeks of Greek are always dull no matter what

>>22950391
only issue with Dickey's is you won't be able to find an answer key but if you are already intermediate at Latin, it won't be necessary. The exercises are very simple but great in number.

>>22949100
Doesn't he say /ei/ and /ou/ to be diphthongs? Why does Wiki and Logos say otherwise then (the former for both, the latter only for the latter)?

>>22950581
I don't think of voiced fricatives as being between unvoiced unaspirated stops and unvoiced aspirated stops. Maybe that's the case but it doesn't seem obvious to me.

Will I sound retarded if I use p much Hungarian phonetics for Sanskrit? we have all the same sounds.

think im going filter the word "fricatives". Caring about how a dead language is pronounced has to be the biggest cock slurping activity second only to poetry faggots

>>22951662
>second only to poetry faggots
t. spiritually dead
Now that you've ruled out poetry and historical speculation in one go, I wonder what you get out of classical languages. Do not respond. I do not care.

>>22951737
>b-b-but muh untranslated medieval latin gems!!

>>22951737
go fellate some cocks while reciting verses poetry fag. I would would HEEM you irl.

ὁ ἀδόλεσχος πανταχοῦ, ἐν ἀγορᾷ, ἐν θεάτρῳ, ἐν περιπάτῳ, καθ' ἡμέραν καὶ νύκτωρ ληρεῖ.

Garrulus undique est: in forō, in theatrō, in viā, cotīdiē et noctū nūgātur.

>>22951737
>the only reason to learn Latin or Greek is to speculate endlessly over pronunciation or read poetry

>>22951737
i just want to read histories and documents dont care about poetry

>>22947865
Wikipedia mentions Dionysius Thrax, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and Aelius Herodianus.

>>22947969
Not an argument.

>>22948019
Not every linguist agrees with generativism. The field as a whole goes back well before Chomsky. In particular we had a pretty good idea how Ancient Greek sounded before Chomsky was born, which makes him entirely irrelevant to this thread.

>>22948750
To me Greek seems harder, though that might be because I've mostly only been exposed to it through retarded methods.

>>22949558
At least in Mandarin, they only come out as aspirated in 平 tone, and unaspirated in the others. I think in Cantonese vernacular readings they come out as aspirated in 平 and 上 tones but not 去 or 入.

>>22950477
Maybe it was digitized (or digitally typeset in the first place) before Unicode was universal?

>>22951600
You do? When I compare them on Wikipedia I see some differences, like lack of aspirated stops, retroflex stops, syllabic laterals and rhotics, and only two sibilant places of articulation vs. three.

are there any historical texts in ancient greek that don't have english translations?

>>22952302
>Dionysius Thrax
Was posted above, yes.
>Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and Aelius Herodianus
What exact works?
>>22949100
He doesn't mention long /a/ and /i/ though (neither do Logos). Why do we think they're real?
>>22952028
>ō ē ū ā
How do you read a phrase when these are unmarked as in most of Latin texts? Do people read Renaissance Latin with Classical pronunciation either?

>>22952544
>He doesn't mention long /a/ and /i/
Ah, he exactly does, I was retarded. How to tell them apart then? I know about the mark below but it indicates a diphthong with a long vowel, not just a long vowel. The flat marks like in Latin seem to not be written.

Learning to read Pali is such a strange experience.
Pretty much all of the translations seem to intentionally exoticize the language.
Maybe I just don't know it well enough yet but the actual text is so much clearer than the complete schizofest that is buddhist translations.
They also refuse to translate certain words in some places but not in other places. Like, half the time you see 'dhamma' left untranslated but in 'dhammomhi', the same word is translated as 'I am subject to'.
Can someone explain to me? I genuinely don't understand and the translations seem so much worse than any other language I've studied. Has anyone translated this like how people translate Plato?

>>22947955
>The fact of many alphabets in use proves how much Greek has changed, not the other way around

This is not indicative of alphabet change. It means they had a variety of spellings.

I've starting going through the reading greek textbook and dikaiopolis keeps repeating articles with genitive cases, ie τα πραγματα τα των Ελληνων. Why is there a second τα?, I haven't encountered this in any of the other greek things I have read so far.

Lads, I want to start learning Classical Greek and Hebrew but shit's so confusing because how do you even start? Modern languages have it easier since you start by "Hello, how are you?" and follow the easy path thereafter, and Latín has LLPSI which is a killer tool, but where do I start with A.Greek?

>>22945261
>Why does Coptic use them to stand for different sounds that are distinct even today?
I am generally pro-Erasmian. I loathe Modern pronunciation. I just wanted to give this one correction. My Coptic professor and my very linguistically knowledgeable friends say that you cannot assume a 1-1 equivalency with the Coptic and Greek alphabets. Sometimes, they say nothing can be assumed, but I disagree with this. Based on Coptic evidence, which has problems, as I just mentioned, Greek had already begun to iotacize. You don't even need Coptic to understand this, as scholars have determined that by the end of the Hellenistic period eta became ioticized. According to Layton, Sahidic Coptic Η and ΕΙ are to be pronounced eeee, and Ε is pronounced like ayyy. Sahidic is an Upper Egyptian dialect that died out before Bohairic. Wikipedia gives the death date as 14th century. Layton's grammar was written primarily for people who would read Nag Hammadi. Nag Hammadi is actually in Lycopolitan, which is very similar to Sahidic. Nag Hammadi is very old, so I would think that Layton's pronunciation guide reflects old Sahidic (and Lycopolitan).

>>22952708
Logos (lingua Graeca per se illustrata), Athenaze (Italian).
>>22952735
>I am generally pro-Erasmian
>>22952544
>>22952559

>>22952735
>Based on Coptic evidence, which has problems, as I just mentioned, Greek had already begun to iotacize.
Begun, sure. Not finished.
>According to Layton, Sahidic Coptic Η and ΕΙ are to be pronounced eeee, and Ε is pronounced like ayyy.
Please use IPA.

>>22952735
>I am generally pro-Erasmian.
Why would you be pro-Erasmian? It has several things in it we now know are wrong or anachronistic. Why not use actual reconstructed pronunciation?

>>22952779
>>22952785
Answer >>22952761 please.

>>22952795
Answer what exactly?

>>22952798
1. How to tell long and short /i/ and /a/ in Greek?
2. For Latin:
>How do you read a phrase when these are unmarked as in most of Latin texts? Do people read Renaissance Latin with Classical pronunciation either?

>>22952256
>>22952109
>>22951746
>>22951737
>>22951662
The point of discussing phonetics is that it's the only part of language that can have different interpretations and so can be actually discussed. If you don't know how to conjugate a verb, check your grammar book, if you don't know what a word mean, check the dictionary, there's nothing to discuss or argue about.

>>22949498
Yes, I'm going through Xenophon fine now and my speed seems to increase daily, but it would've been nice if Logos had existed/if I had been aware of it's existence when I started out.
I basically just went with one textbook because that's how I did things for another language and I couldn't see it being practical otherwise. I didn't know of this thread back then, either. Oh well.

>>22949545
How would you say that the extremely analytic nature of CC weighs up against the extremely synthetic nature of AG? It tickles my imagination just thinking of how a language could function without basic synthetic features even the most analytic of European languages has.

>I would encourage you to take a look at Barnes and Van Norden. Barnes in particular gets you to some excellent poetry rather quickly. That will be a good gauge of whether or not you'll find it worth it.
Thanks for the recommendation, anon. That sounds like it may be exactly what I was looking for.

>>22952779
>>22952785
I like Erasmian because it is an easy to learn system that is in a great tradition. I am not opposed to the reconstructed pronunciation developed by scholars in the 60s, but if you're talking about something that a YouTuber came up with, no, fuck that. Additionally, the particular reconstructed pronunciation you use can be touchy. Someone might brag that they are using something better than Erasmian, yet they are using a pronunciation that is not accurate for the time and place of the work they are reading. With Erasmian, all of that can be ignored because everyone knows that Erasmian is not perfect, and in that sense, Erasmian is perfection--you can read Greek effortlessly, have some vowel differentiation, and people will generally not lose their shit.
The iotacization now seen in Modern Greek was not completed by the time of Christ, but what I had outlined earlier had occurred. No, I will not use IPA because I don't feel like looking up the alphabet and copying and pasting special characters. Go read about Coptic and Greek yourself. You people who start arguments over pronunciation are the latest form of Latin textbook people. You learn nothing and contribute nothing of value to the thread.

>>22952851
>You people who start arguments over pronunciation are the latest form of Latin textbook people. You learn nothing and contribute nothing of value to the thread.
seethe fag

>>22949975
Dutch (native), English, German, Pāli, Ancient Greek, French.
My English is so good that my Dutch is terrible in comparison. My German has gone through a decade of being half-assed, because, being Dutch, a lot of things can simply be divined without properly understanding them. I've been actually reading books in it and improving my formal understanding of the language separately from Dutch for the last three months or so. Reading e.g. In Stahlgewittern I sometimes managed to get through a whole page without feeling the need to check the translation, but because I mostly disdain dictionary work I do make use of that privilege.
My Pāli is good enough to be able to read anything in the early suttas except stretches of the Sutta Nipāta, although I tend to just consult a translation for highly specific circumstantial words as you tend to find them in similes (a particular kind of goat, or some sort of implement relating to a profession from 2500 years ago I've no knowledge of, etc.). I've read everything there is of that varyingly in Pāli and/or English, most of it many times, although there might be some short suttas in the Anguttara that have escaped my notice due to how that book is formatted.
My AG I started on a whim around this time last year, completed Mastronarde in a month and a half, read about 30 pages of Xenophon and promptly burned out my interest. I picked it back up in December and I'm about half-way through Anabasis now. I seem to read about 2,5 pages an hour now.
French I picked up in November because it dawned on me that I already knew like half its vocabulary through English and that it would kind of be a waste not to know it. I found it very easy, finished Assimil in about a month, maybe a month and a half also, and I've almost gotten to the end of L'Étranger by Camus by now. Despite the fact that German syntax is almost exactly the same as Dutch and the fact that I've been acquainted with it for a decade, I seem to skim sentences easier in French than in German. Possibly because it's closer to English somehow. So here, again, mostly a matter of farming vocabulary (which I despise and therefore always set out to do as passively as possible).
I could probably make myself understood in my German patois rather easily, although I've never really had the need to. If I were to actually immerse myself in German, needing to speak it all the time, I think I'd pick it up very quickly. This is not something that interests me very much, however.
Not speaking, you don't ever really get "fluent" in any relevant sense of the word. I'm more of a language fetishist, though. I kind of do it for the hunt (everything after Pāli, that is). I think a sensible person might want to read widely in a language before even considering to add another.

>>22949983
>Are you a native speaker of a related language?
No.

>Are you able to make sense of Sanskrit texts normally?
Bits and pieces, I think. Sanskrit, to me, is basically like someone has put a bunch of consonants into a language you already know, and also the declensions are all slightly different (e.g. -ah for -o in the singular nominative), different enough that I wouldn't be able to parse a sentence without consulting something.
Kind of registers like this to me: Hebhlo Anron caumpbrehend you thraise? Lraukhs difpherraint, nau?
Also, I can't read the pertinent runes they typically write Sanskrit in, so that doesn't help.

>>22950112
>-bhāṣaka
For the anon above, this is probably a sentence I would've been able to understand. The equivalent of this in Pāli would simply be "bhāsaka".

>when I was just looking for a word meaning "speaker/language user."
I believe that agent nouns are productive in Sanskrit, aren't they? Couldn't you, therefore, have made "bhāsitar" (just guessing the form) or something like that? I think I would've gone for something ending in -ī or maybe -vī if I had to construct that (I think -in, -vin in SK), because you would have ended up with "Sanskrit-speaking" ("Pālivādī"?). "Atthi ettha koci Pālivādī": "Is there here someone Pāli-speaking?".

>You claimed not to be interested in Hinduism, but you are surely interested in Buddhism, no?
I didn't respond to this at the time because I don't want to antagonize anyone or derail any thread, but I'd certainly not look favourably on any Buddhist scripture written in Sanskrit. I already reject the entire Theravādī tradition, so perhaps you could understand that anyone that writes in Sanskrit would be still farther removed from my proclivities.
Interestingly, the Buddha himself specifically forbids any translation to Sanskrit in the Vinaya, making it a dukkața, although that definitely wouldn't be the reason for me to abstain from Sanskrit Buddhist texts. I also don't think I could enjoy with a detached literary air something so close to something I find significant. Perhaps like how a calvinist wouldn't be able to read St. Aquinas without throwing a fit.

>>22950740
lmao
Where's this from?

>>22952836
Chinese vernaculars are very fun for their analytic nature, and tend to be pretty wordy. Classical Chinese is a different beast altogether. I bring up vernaculars because it's quite a contrast, despite both being analytic and of shared provenance.
Classical Chinese has as wide a variety of styles and genres as any language, but can be maddeningly ambiguous. Difficult passages can stall for longer than Greek, and much of that stalling is figuring out whether a certain character is a noun, active verb, passive verb, or causal verb. It can also be highly allusive, making extensive reading crucial. Proems and heavy parallelism are common or even expected.

Song Ci translation

檻菊愁煙蘭泣露。羅幕輕寒,燕子雙飛去。明月不諳離恨苦。斜光到曉穿朱戶。
昨夜西風凋碧樹。獨上高樓,望盡天涯路。欲寄彩箋兼尺素。山長水闊知何處。
晏殊
The chrysanthemum chokes on vapor; the orchid sobs its dew.
Through the screen blows a cold breeze; swallows fly off two-by-two.
Old Moon, not knowing parting’s sorrow,
Lights this red dwelling ‘til the morrow.
Last night the west wind roused and shook the jaden trees askew.
Alone I climbed the tower—and to heaven’s borders cast my view.
Would I send this parcel—for its silken letter a vivid pair:
Past mountains so high, waters so wide: ah, I know not where.
Yen Shu

>>22952659
it's the attributive vs predicative role of, in this case, the partitive genitive of 'the Greeks'
this is one example where position in Greek matters, basically the rule is this
attributive: ὁ καλὸς ἀνήρ = ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ καλός(you can think about it as the adjective sticking close to the article)
predicative: ὁ ἀνὴρ καλός = καλὸς ὁ ἀνήρ

attributive position: the adjective individuates a specific class of the noun it modifies: ὁ καλὸς ἀνήρ = of the 'men', I'm talking about the kalos one; in your example, τὰ πράγματα τὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων = τὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων πράγματα the genitive here is like an adjective i.e you are individuating and specifying that you are talking specifically about those deeds of the Hellenes

predicative position: the adjective as the name says predicates the noun i.e it gives it an attribute which can be accessory
e.g μισῶ τοὺς κακοὺς βαρβάρους 'I hate bad barbarians'(but maybe I like good ones) vs μισῶ κακοὺς τοὺς βαρβάρους I hate those shitty barbarians i.e 'I hate barbarians'(who are shitty)

>>22952825
nta, generally you'll have to memorize it, that's what it boils down to, and poetry is what makes it much easier to do since the rhythmic nature of ancient poetry tells you length almost automatically once you reach a good level
but often the accent system helps you as well, for example, I know the ι in μισέω is long because the abstract noun related to this verb is μῖσος and it has a circumflex accent
for Latin the basic idea is the same but quite harder due to all 5 vowels subject to different lengths and the lack of an accent system; I'd say unless you are reading some Renaissance Latin text which specifically exploited length for poetry as in ancient times, it's not a big deal, although if you have already put effort into the vowels length difference you should pronounce them accordingly anyway out of habit

>>22951266
In Classical Attic, they're generally taken to have already become monophthongs /e:/ and /u:/. Earlier than that, they were indeed diphthongs, like they're written, so an /e/ sliding into an /i/, and an /o/ sliding into an /u/, which is actually pretty much how English and Dutch tend to do it. Think "hey" and "hoe".

>>22952761
>Athenaze (Italian).
Why do people always recommend the Italian version? What's the difference?

>>22952945

>agent nouns are productive in Sanskrit, aren't they?
By "agent noun" I see that you mean those ending in -tṛ, in which case the answer is yes, but only to a point—although from the dictionaries it looks like -bhāṣitṛ could indeed work in the desired sense. But such forms are less common than agent nouns ending in -aka or -in. And the reason I didn't want to go with -vādin was that to my mind it has a very strong sense of "affirming a view," which at least in part rūḍha (not derived from its etymological sense). In modern Indian languages, in fact, Hindutvavādī is how you would say "Hindutva-ist," for instance. Anyways, it now occurs to me that a word meaning just "applying/using" (prayuñjāna/prayoktṛ, for instance) might be a little more idiomatic.

Also, I guess you are some kind of Buddhist fundamentalist, but I don't really get the resistance to learning Devanāgarī. After a little while, it actually becomes easier to read Indic languages in Indic scripts, I find, because vowel length tends to be more conspicuously marked. And on a practical level you would be able to make use of a much wider range of editions. Also, if you like Aśoka, then you should have some respect for the descendents of the script he invented, I would think. But you do you

>>22953371
The English version is an inferior textbook with short readings. The Italian version takes those readings and expands them into an entire well-scaffolded reader à la LLPSI.

>>22952028
ἐν πρώτῃ ἔγνων σε λέγειν ὢς ένθάδε πολὺς ΔΌΛΟΣ ὤν λῶλ

>>22952559
Occasionally they're listed with the flat stripe in dictionaries and such, I think mainly when it affects the accent. Otherwise, at least if it has a circumflex accent you know for sure that it's long.

>>22952585
Pāli is very hard to translate sometimes, which is why it's worth learning.
Dhamma as a word is a whole can of worms and you might get an indication of what exactly it means when you've read it in context hundreds of times and start to get a vague inkling of what the Buddha's actually talking about. In this instance, "dhammomhi" means "I am of the nature (to)", because dhamma means something generally similar to nature, not in the sense of trees and green fields, but like German "Art", i.e. the nature of a thing. So "Maraņadhammomhi" means "I am of the nature to die", "I am a death-thing".
The venerable Ñāņavīra discusses this word profitably in Clearing the Path.
People translate in all sorts of ways. If you thought it to be clear-cut one-to-one translatable, what would the point be of trying to learn it?

>ancients getting into etymologies
oof madon

>>22953372
>vādī
Yes, the implication of "supporter of x doctrine, -ist" is also present in Pāli, but it's not exclusively that way. You have sassatavādī for "eternalist", but also "bhovādī" as a funny term for Brahmin, meaning "bho-sayer" (I don't know if you guys have got "bho" as well, but it's sort of slang from bhavam).

>but I don't really get the resistance to learning Devanāgarī
I have none. I simply have not found any reason to, since it has no relevance to Pāli. All the best resources, if not all the resources, are in Latin script. Historically the Theravādino would just write in whatever local script they had, so in the Sinhalese, Burmese, Thai, etc. script. Export this to the internet and it naturally takes a Latin shape.
Vowel length is very simple in Pāli; ī and ā are always marked if long, e and o are never marked because they're always long. I wouldn't know of any reason to prefer Indic scripts here, which is why the field in general hasn't, I think. Sanskrit has India influencing its study, inclining it towards an Indic script, whereas Pāli does not have a singular cultural nexus and has an influential power base in western countries with PTS and western monks.

>Also, if you like Aśoka
I don't have a very strong opinion here. Seemed like a nice fellow.

>you should have some respect for the descendents of the script he invented
I have always liked the way some of them look, especially Devanāgarī and the Tibetan script.
Did you interpret my "runes" comment as disrespectful? It's just an old 4chan-ism, and I meant nothing by it.

>>22953500

In fact the Sanskrit form is bhoḥ, and yes I've seen it classified as a frozen form of bhavat/bhavān (I assume bhavam means the same). Anyways, I was being a bit facetious with the script thing, but I'm surprised to learn that Latin script is most common for Pāli nowadays. For Sanskrit, even the corpus of digitized texts in Latin is definitely smaller than the corpus in Devanāgarī, despite transliteration being the international standard in secondary literature.

Where the fuck did we get shit like IV and IX from when Roman authors just write IIII or VIIII

>>22952544
>How do you read a phrase when these are unmarked as in most of Latin texts?
through experience you mentally insert where the macron should go. the easiest ones to recognize pertain to morphology (masc pl 2nd decl ōs & 1st pl 1st conjugation āmus).

>>22952833
There might be uncertainty about the meaning of some hapax legomena, at least.

>>22952836
>It tickles my imagination just thinking of how a language could function without basic synthetic features even the most analytic of European languages has.
English isn't very far from it. If you replace '-s' with 'many' and '-ed' with 'did' you can nearly eliminate the need for inflectional morphology entirely.

>>22952851
>No, I will not use IPA because I don't feel like looking up the alphabet and copying and pasting special characters.
>not having an IPA keyboard

>>22952907
Why did you learn Pali? Are you a buddhist?

>>22953673
It's probably because it's easier to distinguish at a glance. Humans are good at telling the difference at a glance between groups of one, two, and more than two, but between different groups of more than two it's harder.

>>22950740
is this you?

>>22948146
>I am a fisherman and I hate shepherds. Let them remain idle in the fields, woods, plains, and countryside. They have no cares; under the shade of fruitful trees, they play tunes on pipes, and among roses and lilies, beautiful girls dance and laugh before them. But I in the dark sea am encircled by pirates, robbers, and deadly fish. But I love my faithful raft. Not unfaithful like Galatea. I hate shepherds. May they be beheaded by bears.

Is this correct?

>>22953945
BENE
NUNC VERTE NUMERO LATINE HEXAMETRIS IN VERSIBUS, AGE

>>22952945
>Where’s this from?
ETCSL 2.4.2.02, one of the self-praise hymns of Shulgi of Ur. They get a bit repetitive but the concept is pretty fun.

Ancient Greek false beginner here, what are your favorite texts? So far I've read The Anabasis of Xenophon's and book 1 of Herodotus, Herodotus is so fun that I don't want to stop reading him. Plato is easy to read but hard to understand, maybe I should read The Apology?

>>22952353
We have the /h/ sound, and many other sounds sound the same or very similar. Also we have long and short vowels with different quality. Our a and á is a similar difference to Sanskrit

>>22954063
Ne sis tam plagosus, o Jocke. Conabor! Ad laborandum jam festino.

>>22941707
The Celts didn't cry and whine about being invaded, they became accustomed to Roman culture. I suggest you do the same.

>>22953387
πάνυ γε, πανταχοῦ εἰσίν οἱ φλύᾱροι, μάλιστα οἱ ποιηταί

>>22953547
>I'm surprised to learn that Latin script is most common for Pāli nowadays.
In fact, the only time I've ever seen Pāli written in anything other than Latin script, other than images of palm leaf scrolls, that is, was in a 19th century grammar. It was Burmese. I believe this was right around the start of when the British started to take an interest in it, before the Pali Text Society was founded.

>>22953832
Yeah, English is definitely rather analytical. I was under the impression that Chinese languages are more extreme in some ways, though.

>>22953850
Yes. I don't think there'd be any purpose to learn it other than understanding the early suttas.

>>22954826
Modern Chinese is not terribly more extreme than English. Today's Language Log post comparing CC and MC is a good example of this.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=62230

what do you think of Esperanto as a language?

>>22954223
I mean yes but you're lacking a lot of phonemic distinctions that Sanskrit has.

>>22954339
>Who was Boudicca?

>>22954892
It's fine but it's not really relevant to this thread.

>>22952708
> Hebrew
Aleph with Beth

>>22954826
How long did it take you to get to a point where you could sight read? Any textbooks or other learner materials that stand out to you?
I fear we won't see another Pali student any time soon, and one for whom it isn't in some way a heritage language is even rarer. I hope you stick around, or (like Ethiopanon) drop in from time to time.

>>22953285
hmm i knew about the difference between "the handsome man" and "the man is handsome" but it isn't so obvious that τῶν Ἑλλήνων is an adjective and how that changes "the deeds of the greeks". Would τὰ πράγματα τῶν Ἑλλήνων = the deeds are of the greeks?.

>>22954987
Neither is Arabic nor Hebrew yet they get shilled all the same.

>>22955011
I don't think so. You'd probably have to use a demonstrative instead of the definite article to change the emphasis to deeds in general, and then use the singular nominative.

>>22955048
How are they not relevant? Arabic is one of the five great classical languages of the world, and Hebrew is the language of the Bible and of centuries of Jewish scholarship.

I wish my memory and attention weren't completely irreparably busted so I could actually consciously follow my progress in language learning and not just have vague feelings that since I'm putting effort into learning, I'm probably getting results at a decent pace. It'd be a lot easier to bask in the feeling of achievement that way.

>>22955195
>I wish
You know that you have agency, right? If you don't feel like you do, then I would unironically suggest therapy, meditation, something, because the problem is bigger than languages.

>>22955238
Can't get any medicine for it due to reasons(assuming that they would even help) and cutting out activities that hinder attention span doesn't do anything. I've been ignoring it for a good decade now and it doesn't have "real" negative effects so I've just gotten used to and accepted it. I don't think anything can help it, really.

>>22955006
When you say Pali is only useful for the Pali Canon, is that because the later Buddhist literature is less interesting or for some other reason?
Sri Lankan Buddhist literature is largely written in Pali and classical Sinhala is essentially comprehensible for a Pali reader.
You mentioned an aversion to the Theravada tradition and not knowing any Indic scripts. It seems a bit odd to learn an entire language and not put the minuscule effort to read a script that most of the native literature is written in.

>>22955302
Meditate. Go on a retreat for it. Many places don't demand payment. Do not give up on yourself. The ability to be comfortable in life is a worthwhile and achievable goal.

>>22955515
>>22954826
Sorry, meant for you.

Gentlemen... I have decided. I will learn Greek through Mastronarde, LOGOS and Athenaze for good measure. I will read Plato in the original. Yes, I will write as closely to Thucydides as possible. Indeed, gentlemen, I have learned from my mistakes learning Latin, and I know how to mend them. I'll see you fellas in a few years.

>>22955785
well at least with Thucydides you'll have your ablatives.

>>22952945
>I'd certainly not look favourably on any Buddhist scripture written in Sanskrit. I already reject the entire Theravādī tradition, so perhaps you could understand that anyone that writes in Sanskrit would be still farther removed from my proclivities.
>Interestingly, the Buddha himself specifically forbids any translation to Sanskrit in the Vinaya, making it a dukkața, although that definitely wouldn't be the reason for me to abstain from Sanskrit Buddhist texts.
You do realize that the Buddha's prohibition of Sanskrit translation could be a much later attribution, right? What's the reason for your prejudice against Sanskrit? Seems perfectly good to me.

>>22955785
I have just been using aniki and a couple of pages of https://pressbooks.pub/ancientgreek/front-matter/introduction/ every day and I already have about 1000 words down and can read texts at a decent pace when not looking up new words or declensions im not familiar with yet, and this is only after about a month or two. Not sure why people need these fancy textbooks.

>>22952945
Some readings in Pali versions of Buddhist text are believed to have undergone greater revision when compared to the Sanskrit version of those readings, but like with the Quran, Buddhist textual criticism is still more underdeveloped compared to that of the Bible.

>>22955058
Aramaic and Greek are the languages of the bible (supposedly). Hebrew and Arabic are medieval.

>>22956269
That definitely isn't true, unless you are referring to Rabbinical/Israeli Hebrew?
Essentially all of the Old Testament is written in Biblical Hebrew, which is what he'd be studying.
The New Testament is written in a pretty simple Koine Greek.
You might also be talking about the theory that the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic but were only translated into Greek. Unfortunately, we don't have that version, if it ever existed, so there's no point learning the language for that purpose.

>>22956615
>Essentially all of the Old Testament is written in Biblical Hebrew, which is what he'd be studying.
It was first written in Greek. Hebrew didn't even exist at the time, only imperial Aramaic.

>>22956630
Genuinely, what is the purpose of this.
The Septuagint is obviously not the original.
If you choose to call Biblical Hebrew imperial Aramaic you're free to but it isn't a valuable comment, is it.

>>22956684
>The Septuagint is obviously not the original.
It's the first written record. And yes,Hebrew is a medieval reconstruction of Aramaic with missing parts and others tacked on from Syriac.

>>22956697
What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

>>22956706
Faked. All of them. That's why they borrow from either the Greek but it's clearly reconstructed or it borrows from materials that will not exist for another 1400 years. I mean they were "discovered" in 1947, what's that tell you? Three of the largest suppliers of them were all later found to be con artists and the problem got so bad the Vatican had to step in during the 80s.

>>22956711
Assuming that's true, the reconstructed language we call Biblical Hebrew is still an important artifact of Western culture and worth reading for that reason alone.

>>22956736
But not classical, and not western. The Aramaic would be considered valuable to the west. Even the Syriac.

>>22955006
>Any textbooks or other learner materials that stand out to you?
Warder is a gem, nothing comes close to it as far as I know. Duroiselle's grammar is very nice and concise once you've worked through Warder

>How long did it take you to get to a point where you could sight read?
Hard to say. I spoiled myself with suttacentral side by side translations for a long time in order to easily get to where I wanted to go in texts and be able to ignore words like "brewer's sieve". Eventually I got some volumes in print, which really advanced my ability to parse large amounts of it quickly.
So, I think, being generous, anywhere from half a year to a year or so, depending on your exact definition of "sight read".

>>22956269
>>22956630
>>22956697
>>22956711
>>>/x/

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>>22957098
>>22957098
>>22957098

>>22955515
>is that because the later Buddhist literature is less interesting or for some other reason?
I did not learn Pāli out of scholastic or literary interest. I'm not interested in any later tradition etc. simply because they're wrong. I'm not going to argue the point or anything, though. If you're interested, read Ñāņavīra's book (CtP) and/or watch Ñāņamoli Thero's youtube video's at "Hillside Hermitage". To be clear, if you're not interested, that's okay too. I have no desire to be unnecessarily abrasive.

>It seems a bit odd to learn an entire language and not put the minuscule effort to read a script that most of the native literature is written in.
There is no "native literature". Pāli is a literary register of middle Indo-Aryan specifically designed for the sake of preserving the early suttas and vinaya by serving to unite the orally transmitted texts that had drifted into various dialects. In other places, Sanskrit or other varyingly Sanskritized Prakrits were used for this purpose. Pāli is the one that survived as host to an as complete as could be expected collection of the early texts. This is corroborated by linguistic/text comparison methods and various archaeological findings (I'm anticipating the other anon I'll also reply to here).
To directly address your point: Yes, it would be. However, everything I'm interested in is in Latin script in a dozen different places on the internet and in print. I have no idea where one would even find anything written in Pāli in a different script. Like I said earlier, I've never really encountered it. The script situation with Pāli is not analogous to that of Sanskrit at all.
I think even the commentaries, Visuddhimagga and whatnot can more easily be accessed in Latin script than in any other. Even the rather old-school white Theravādī-ordained monks (50s, 60s), of which Ñāņavīra is one, did not know any Indic script, as far as I know. Even then, monasteries catering to western monks carried the full library of Pali Text Society books (i.e. in Latin script). I have the four Nikāyas in print myself, though not PTS because they're far too expensive, and it is in Latin script. Again, in my attempt to locate suttas in the original language I did not once come across anything in another script.
To come back to your first question, the monk (Ñāņamoli Thera, but not the one whose youtube I mentioned above; names get recycled) who translated the Visuddhimagga to English, which was apparently a Herculean task and widely lauded, translated it out of pure linguistic indulgence; he started out just wanting to find out whether it was useful or not. In the process, he found that it was not at all useful, and very much disliked the text. Yet, since he completed the painstakingly high quality translation, it must be assumed that the text is at least linguistically pleasant. Scholarly distractions were his main vice, after all.