/lit/ - Literature

>>22953689
You telling me this is what Shakespeare actually looked like?

All anti-stratfordianism is refuted by the simple question of 'why'
Why were De Vere and Shakespeare collaborating to create this facade?
Why did Ben Jonson lie about Shakespeare in his eulogy?
If the true author of Shakespeare was some worldly noble, why did Shakespeare lack knowledge of basic European geography?
If De Vere was the secret author of Shakespeare, why was he creating his own works?
Why did multiple contemporary poets identify Shakespeare as the man behind the plays?
Anti-stratfordians, whether Oxfordians or Baconists, will tell you all it's some grand conspiracy instead of accepting the simple reality that the son of a glove maker wrote those plays

>>22953757
>Why did Ben Jonson lie about Shakespeare in his eulogy?
jonson knew de vere was shakespeare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQThnv8c2uI

>>22953757
>Why did multiple contemporary poets identify Shakespeare as the man behind the plays?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB9_xC_upRs&list=PLJ05UbAScB_QwjCHiu8MF2ycSxxOcocBi
everyone knew it was de vere

>>22953799
>BRO HE LEFT TOTALLY LEFT A CIPHER
take your meds

>>22953811
k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-PWR7-0Hp4

>>22953757
Maybe look at the evidence? One of the few references to Shakespeare from the 1590s is a pun on Edward de Vere's name, outright stating that it is him, and is inexplicable on any other grounds. Why wasn't Shakespeare's body in his tomb? Why does Ben Johnson make a pun on his body not being in his tomb? So many questions and strange occurrences UNANSWERED by Stratfordians.

>Thou art a monument without a tomb
Clearly alluding to the location of the famous monument.

>>22953799
Waugh makes a lot of good points but so often he veers into complete insanity without questioning himself in the slightest. Does he really think the etcher scientifically measured how his left arm would look from the back and then applied it as his right arm?

>>22953841
yes i think he believes that
have you seen one of the longer presentations on this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGn6eJkQlig

>>22953853
I just think Waugh needs, at least a very small portion of caution. I've never heard him say, no matter how wild the claim, 'I'm not quite sure about this but it's possible'. Any connection he finds he believes it 100%.

>>22953868
well he is going to die soon i think
he has some kind of cancer and looks pretty bad

>>22953872
Stratfordians stay winning

>>22953868
i think the problem is that most people can't believe that they used shit like ciphers and steganography to hint at stuff, which i guess is understandable, but at some point the amount of "coincidences" that pile up as you look at this stuff becomes kind of overwhelming

>>22953888
But so often coincidences can be better explained by the 'official' meaning. As in this case >>22953805 the poet Warren clearly supplied a meaning for the usage of 'verbius', in common poetic language for the time, but Waugh ignores it, doesn't even acknowledge this obvious meaning for at least contrast's sake, but simply ignores it and presents it as meaning Shakespeare having a second identity.

>>22953689
bump.

>how could you still be stratfordian at this point?
I'm not.

>>22953757
>Why were De Vere and Shakespeare collaborating
jew claws and whatnot....

>>22953911
ok thats cool but how does the "official" meaning explain this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIS-hNrr0-c

>>22954269
why are the angle measurements + longitude and latitude of the great pyramid at giza embedded into the front page of the sonnets?

>>22953887
hehe

>>22953757
Just an old case of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

So you’re saying that De Vere being the author was an open secret, with seemingly every major literary figure in England during that time being in on it, and yet not one (1) stated outright that De Vere was the true author and apparently used secret hidden messages instead so that posterity could decipher them?

>>22954478
Yes.

>>22954269
Holy schizophrenia!

>>22954478
And he continued to write from beyond the grave.

>>22954501
That’s easily explainable. Many of Shakespeare’s later plays have more revision and collaboration and change in style. It’s possible that Oxford had many unfinished plays and other playwrights stepped in to finish them after he died.

>>22954660
Occam's razor:
>an obscure conspiracy full of collaborative efforts to finish his works for some reason
or
>the real Shakes wrote them

>>22954696
And what does Occam's razor say about the many oddities and coincidences?

>>22954704
>>22954376

The idea that Shakespeare could not have been the author of his own work is rooted in smooth-brain English classism and a fundamental misunderstanding of who he actually was. His father was a middle-class artisan and his mother was related to gentry. The idea itself is an embarrassment.

>>22954711
Woah, some complex scientific-neural-psychological theory of behavior or just the coincidences lead to a conclusion? Yeah I think Occam's Razor sides with me.

>>22954798
No one claims Shakespeare didn't write the works because he was a pleb, lol. All the arguments are built on detailed textual analysis, flawed or not. It's in fact more of a sign of smooth-brain English peasantry and class resentment to suddenly bring this up as the assumed justification, as if Shakespeare being an aristocrat would be an attack on yourself.

>>22954810
> I think Occam's Razor sides with me.
Nope. Stay schizo if you want.

>>22954815
>No one claims Shakespeare didn't write the works because he was a pleb, lol.
They do. It's one of their main arguments, actually.

>>22954815
NTA, but you could build a detailed textual analysis to support countless different people being the secret authors of countless different works throughout the archivally patchy Early Modern period. The point is that people fall into obsessive autistic crytography mode about Shakespeare specifically, and specifically for the sake of their aristocratic hero of choice. Imagine if I suddenly started rooting through your garbage bins, and, based on the circumstantial evidence of the items you threw out, I started to fabricate a case for your being a secret pedophile with children in your basement . Obviously you wouldn't bother engaging with my actual arguments or the dossiers I repeatedly mailed to you, and whether they had a surface-level plausibility and internal coherency would be irrelevant to you and to any authorities I tried to rope in to my delusions. Even if I chanced on some superficially suspicious coincidences among the heaps and heaps of meaningless rubbish, the only sane response would be to ask: Why did you pick me as the target of your deranged little project? The same misplaced tenacity applied to the bins of your neighbours would have yielded the same results.

>>22953689
There is nothing more plebian than being proud of discussing alternate Shakespeare authorship. It's literally only done by pseuds.

>>22953689
Ik,r?

>>22953689

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNjPKX-1XPA

>>22955010
Typical Strafordian.
Ad hominem is all they can manage, but anything to keep from discussing the facts lol...
Shaxberd cpuld barely hold pen, needed to have his hand guded probably, and kept mispelling his own name. Inb4 that was how they wrote: compare the Stratford man's signature with actual literary men of the day, and it is obvious that the theater manager and petite bourgeois money lender and wool trader was not used to writing. His parents and his children were also illiterate.

>>22955034
> No one claims Shakespeare didn't write the works because he was a pleb, lol

>>22955034
Yeah we already knew Shakespeare had shit handwriting Ben Jonson said so
>I remember the players have often mentioned it as an honor to Shakespeare, that in his writing, whatsoever he penned, he never blotted out a line. My answer hath been, 'Would he hath blotted a thousand,' which they thought a malevolent speech. .
What is this meant to prove, it just cones across as aristocratic arrogance and spergery

>>22954496
nice argument!

>>22955034
You're a fucking joke.

>>22955108
What is that image supposed to prove, retard? Even Stratfordians don't claim that Shakspere wrote that, beyond "signing" his name.

Isn’t it funny how people so intensely look into Shakespeare whether he was real or a pseudonym, (despite having both family record and friends attesting to him.) but then never go ahead and ask, “what of the various other famous poets and playwrights of the time”, many of which have much smaller historical information to prove them, many which have much more reason to use a pseudonym.

Thomas Heywood was one of the most popular playwrights of the time and considered an equal of Shakespeare, so much so that Jaggard when publishing stolen Shakespeare, lord that the verses of Heywood were also by Shakespeare’s hand, Thomas Heywood is called “prose Shakespeare” by Charles lamb, we have, what, 20 something plays of his? He claims to have written or been a part of over 220 plays. Is no one going to question that? That one of the biggest playwrights of the time has over 200 plays missing, which no one called him a liar for saying, for which we don’t have proof in records of what he did write of anything of the sort, is that not curious? Dafoe has confirmed 150 pseudonyms. All this focus on Shakespeare and never never anyone else.

>>22954798
>The idea that Shakespeare could not have been the author of his own work is rooted in smooth-brain English classism and a fundamental misunderstanding of who he actually was.
The only smooth-brain here is you if you think some grain merchant who spent most of his life in rural 16th century England, never traveled beyond London, and who's parents and children were illiterate, could write the Shake-speare canon with nothing more than a grade school education (if that). It doesn't matter how much an alleged genius you are, you can't just fabricate knowledge out of thin air. I guess retards like you are so desperate to latch onto this guy from Stratford being the author because it allows you to retain your deluded belief that you can achieve greatness without putting in any effort.

>>22955409
Nothing in Shakespeare's writings allude to any special knowledge that only a noble would possess. He very rarely used latin phrases, had pretty poor french, and a loose grasp on geography. The most unusual knowledge he had was the geography of Scotland, a place he could have easily traveled to and studied. In fact he made many mistakes that a learned noble man would not
And why the spiel about hard work? Shakespeare devoted his entire life to the theatre, lived with his troupe and often acted in his own plays, and was constantly interacting with contemporary poets and playwrights under the Crown's patronage. He emersed himself completely in his art
If you're going to pretend to not be elitest you can at least try.

>>22955409
> never traveled beyond London
That explains why his geographic knowledge is mistaken sometimes. Such as Italian geography.

>>22953689
Shakespeare only seems impossible because Anglos have pedestalized him to infinity. He became a playwright because there was no money in poetry. The plays show both vulgarity, humor and violence for the audience and the soul of a poet still trying to create beauty in his work. Playwrights from the period came from similar lower backgrounds than an aristocrat. Shakespeare was the son of a glover, Marlowe was the son of a cobbler, and Ben Jonson was the son of a bricklayer. Playwrights were kind of like that, they came from a lower background since being one was considered lowly or whatever.

>>22955647
> William Shakespeare has been known as "The Bard" since the 19th century
>Francis Bacon died on April 6th 1626

>>22955625
Oh noes! You mean he didn't have perfect geographical knowledge in the 16th century? Let's just ignore his intimate familiarity with Northern Italian customs, courtly life, law, the classics, English history, sailing, botany, hunting and falconry, etc. And I guess it's all just a coincidence that the commoner William Shakspere wrote plays populated with aristocrats, set in places where Edward de Vere was known to have lived (such as Venice and Windsor), exaggerates the achievements of John de Vere in Henry VI, parodied people who de Vere knew personally, based plot details on de Vere's personal life (such as being left naked on the shore by pirates), and dedicated works to close associates of de Vere?

>>22954704
Such as?

>>22955667
Bacon used his science to predict that

>>22955796
>coincidence
Yes.

>>22955796
>you can’t bullshit your way through writing a play
Anon, you’re embarrassing yourself. Shaky Shakes was a top tier shitposter

>>22955796
He also wrote plays set in Denmark, Lebanon, Egypt, Greece, Spain, Scotland, Turkey, Yugoslavia. De Vere only visited France, Germany and Italy. Another case of hyper-focusing on patterns that aren’t there.

>>22955905
So you concede defeat? We have all these direct connections to the life of Edward de Vere. Meanwhile, Stratford-upon-Avon isn't mentioned once in the plays and commoners are depicted as a bunch of buffoons. But yes, it makes total sense that Shakspere, who at the time of his death didn't have a single book or manuscript to his name, wrote them. Just keep repeating "muh classism! muh imagination!" over and over. It's all so tiresome...

>>22955941
>Another case of hyper-focusing on patterns that aren’t there.
he says as he continues to hyperfocus on geography, as if that's the only relevant issue

>>22955943
Shakespeare was larping as a noble, which accounts for his portrayal of commoners, as he thought he had rose above them. Stratford is never mentioned because nobody knew or cared about it

>>22955943
Plenty of writers never mention their birthplace in their work. I’m not sure this is relevant.

Shakespeare and de Vere were fucking, which is why de Vere used his name as a pseudonym.
https://graymirror.substack.com/p/the-return-of-the-earl

>>22955948
Since you brought it up, it's an issue, thoughbeit. I never said my reply was meant be comprehensive.

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