/lit/ - Literature

>>22916891
Why are so many linguistics hobbyists so obnoxious
Like just read Olander or Gamkrelidze nigga like we all do and no nobody cares about your theories on ethnicities we have genetics for that

Kristiansen is a faggot

>>22916914
It's called autism and it's a good thing. Let the men have their autistic spergouts in peace.

>>22916914
As a Sakasuna of Saxna, a Scandinavian of Saxony in pleb speak, I refute this fake and gay supposition.

I'm learning grammar with this book. Pretty good so far.

old church slavonic is classical I think but I don't think we ever saw anyone ITT even remotely posting about it
are they the rarest classical language niggas or they don't even consider it a classical language themselves?

>>22916891
Nilus delirus eat in pictura

>>22917017
Is there much literature written in old church slavonic?

>>22916891
>world according to Herodotus

India should be covered with giant ants and Scythia should be transgenders

>>22917099
>India should be covered with giant ants
We call them Indians

>>22917017
>>22917090
The only interesting thing written in it is a bible translation (a pure kino). There are also occasional interesting things translated to it, e.g. modern Tao Te Ching translation.
It's also interesting as it greatly influenced russian language and poetry (can be compared to latin influence on English). There are many church slavonic loanwords in russian, usually they are used for high-pitched words, abstract things or complex ideas. An interesting thing that much of these loanwards have cognates in native russan vocabulary. For example:
>Native russian word - church slavonic loanword
>Voróta (the gates) - vratá (the gates but high pitched and poetic)
>Póroh (a powder) - práh (dust; that into which everything becomes after death, destruction; the corpse of a person; something pathetic and meaningless)

The conclusion is learn it if you are russian, otherwise it's meaningless.

>>22917270
That's really interesting, especially those word pairings. Thanks anon.

>someone on here says learn 25 vocab words a day
>try that for a while
>really difficult
>look up human limit
>it's 20
>switch to 20 vocab words a day
>it's easy
you fuckers

Best Classical Chinese textbook for Mandarin Speakers coming through.

Not sure if it's best to ask here or make a separate bread for it, but do any anons here know what languages would be most important to learn for a deep dive into medieval arthurian literature? Particularly for less well known stories which have not been translated into English.
I know there's a lot in Old French, Middle English, and [some type of] German, and if you go back further it's all Welsh. But is it worth learning something like Latin or will that end up unused?
Also curious about other medieval romances in general, not solely Arthurian stuff.

>>22915860
Isn't any of the stuff on librivox any good?
>>22915992
What about native speakers of the European languages that have pitch accent, like Serbo-Croatian, Lithuanian, or Swedish?

>>22916506
Free recordings of Athenaze? Wait, where can you find those?
>>22916550
Isn't it more precisely a sort of reconstructed Koine?

>>22916887
There are; I'm on a discord server that speaks primarily CC (though in practice it's varying levels of bastardized depending on the speaker). Recently they've started a project to make a new online encyclopedia in Classical Chinese. I'm also on a general East Asian classical languages server with a Classical Chinese conversation channel.

>>22917099
I want to become a modern-day enaries (i.e. get high and talk all mystical-like)

>>22917270
Aren't there some vital bits of the Book of Enoch that are missing from the Ethiopic copies and some parts that overlap but may be slightly different?

>>22917099
>India should be covered with giant ants
This has actually been proven true,they're just not the ants you're thinking of.

>>22916891
هل يمكننا ان نتكلم عن العربية اكثر؟

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QkdM4RvmlI
صاحٍ والخمرُ جَنَى فمِهِ
سكرانُ اللحظ مُعرْبدُهُ
ينضُو مِنْ مُقْلتِه سيْفاً
وكأَنَّ نُعاساً يُغْمدُهُ
فيُريقُ دمَ العشّاقِ به
والويلُ لمن يتقلّدهُ

He was sober and her winey lips filled his mouth
Now the reveller holds a drunken gaze
She draws out his gaze like a sword
and, like that, sheaths it in drowsy eyes.
Thus she spills the blood of lovers with that blade...
woe to the one who holds it.

>>22918737
Lithuanian has pitch? That's interesting.
Anyway, of these I only have some knowledge of Swedish, and it seems to me, though I could be wrong, that the Swedish pitch accent is much simpler than the Greek one is purported to be, which is why I didn't mention it. A significant issue in general would be that pitch accent users don't seem to really be aware that they're using it, naturally, and that this would cause problems in trying to reconstruct it in a different language. Asians do seem to be more aware of it in the sense that it's formalized, anyway, so that you could say "go up here" or such without first having to explain what you mean.
I'm rather out of my depth here, though.

>>22919046
This sounds like a caricature of a language. I would be too polite to tell you this in person but would be embarrassed for you if you recited this aloud.

>>22917775
Didn't that era also have that enormous explosion in use that we call "neo-Latin"? I won't deny that getting away from solely using Latin was also part of it, though, like Dante using the vernacular etc.

>>22919067
what the hell does "caricature of a language" even mean?

>>22919077
Arabic sounds like a group of Romans decided to mock Syriac speakers so they just started making increasingly guttural sounds with an exaggerated w+vowel syllable in the most juvenile manner possible. Now take those mocking Romans and strike them with amnesia all at once so they forget they're mocking the Syriacs and suddenly start intonating it flatly, as if it were a joke they forgot about. That's what Arabic sounds like to normal people around the world.

>>22919097
It was never meant for you then :-(

>>22919046
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIC9VRD-ZAk
I think this sounds cool but i know nothing about arabic nor speak it

>>22919002
1 Enoch in Ge'ez is complete. It must've come into Ge'ez via Greek, which cane from Aramaic, and the Aramaic may or may not have come from Hebrew; it's a somewhatdevated topic. Several languages attest to 1 Enoch, but the Ge'ez preserves it entirely. 2 Enoch is likely a later creation found largely Old Church Slavonic. There are some other languages that attest to 2 Enoch. It is not entirely certain who composed it and when. The vast majority of scholars have historically ruled Slavic composition, and the new Coptic fragment totally rules it out. 3 Enoch survives exclusively in Hebrew and is very much a Jewish text, residing within the Merkabah tradition specifically. This is an AD times text, but the exact date is very uncertain.
>t. Ethiopianon
P.S. I have some updates to the MEGA that will be coming soon. I also have the flu. My family has gotten me sick. I had planned on taking a week long intensive course for Old Persian starting tonight, but my illness may prohibit my participation.

>>22918713
> and [some type of] German
It's Middle High German, very much comparable to Middle English, just more standardized and with a larger corpus, even when restricting it to Arthurian literature. (Le Morte d'Arthur is Early Modern English already).
The Historia Regum Britanniae and the Vita Merlini are both written in Latin, but those are well known and have translations to English. Probably not worth learning Latin over the three big languages you mentioned for Arthurian literature alone.

>>22918771
That's nice. Are there any communities that aren't based on Discord though? These two communities alone make Discord worth downloading, just to check them out, but I'm really not in the mood to tardwrangle Discord until it starts working on my PC, and would also prefer a community outside of Discord assuming that one exists.

Scél lem dúib:
dordaid dam;
snigid gaim;
ro fáith sam.

Gáeth ard úar;
ísel grían;
gair a r-rith;
ruirthech rían;
Rorúad rath;
ro cleth cruth;
ro gab gnáth
giugrann guth.

Ro gab úacht
etti én;
aigre ré;
é mo scél.

>I bring you news:
>A stag bellows;
>Winter snows;
>Summer has fled.

>A cold, high wind;
>A pale, stooped sun;
>Short in his course:
>A rust-red fern;
>Its form destroyed;
>The wild-goose cries
>Its usual cry.

>Ice takes hold
>Of birds' wings;
>A time of ice;
>That is my news.

Bros... I think I've uncovered another Latin conspiracy...
I was reading pic rel (L'alfabeto e la pronunzia del latino; Alfonso Traina) and it seemed to me that the so called sonus medius didn't make a lot of sense: it seems like it was either u or i, not something in between. It turns out philologists don't really agree on what the fuck the sonus medius actually was, and after a quick search I found this
>https://www.jstor.org/stable/24891272
you can read it here
>https://sci-hub.ru/10.13109/glot.2016.92.1.227
tl;dr
>Bref, le medius sonus n’a jamais existé en
latin
Opinions on that article? (you can read frog language, right?)
5vowelqualitysisters... did we won?

>>22920188
I'm sorry bro I'm a classicslet who can't read German, French, or Italian. I seriously need to get cracking, so much scholarship is in those languages.

>>22920188
>ma non dice che in optimus/optumus si sente la mancanza di Y
I mean I'm no expert but why would this be a point? in terms of articulation υ/ü would be the same as ι/i except it's rounded, whereas the sonus medius would be more like Russian ы, no? which is not rounded but most importantly is articulated somewhat in the middle of i and u in terms of tongue position, so the Greek upsilon wouldn't be good either especially for a native speaker with ears properly tuned to tell the difference, unlike digamma for /w/
the argument for the sound somewhat shifting based on the preceding vowel I guess makes sense in terms of euphony, I think maybe one would argue a sound that is in the middle will easily tend to go one way or the other i.e less stable hence also the confusion on this matter

>>22920269
>I mean I'm no expert but why would this be a point?
That part is only against the interpretation of the sonus medius as ü; the author in that book enumerates a few interpretations and give a brief explanation, and don't really say anything against the existence of a sonus medius.
>Contro il suono ü si è fatta valere l'osservazione...
I posted it mostly for the Greek transcriptions, which are interesting. (The pic isn't part of the article I linked.)
>the argument for the sound somewhat shifting based on the preceding vowel I guess makes sense in terms of euphony, I think maybe one would argue a sound that is in the middle will easily tend to go one way or the other i.e less stable hence also the confusion on this matter
Yes, that makes sense.

>>22920269
>I mean I'm no expert but why would this be a point?
That part is only against the interpretation of the sonus medius as ü; the author in that book enumerates a few interpretations and give a brief explanation, and don't really say anything against the existence of a sonus medius.
>Contro il suono ü si è fatta valere l'osservazione...
I posted it mostly for the Greek transcriptions, which are interesting. (The pic isn't part of the article I linked.)

Are there any books out there written with Classical Chinese and with an English translation to the side? I'd like to read and be able to check the translation when clueless, so I can know where I fucked up when reading.

>>22920202
Basically
>some fine point of the pronunciation of Latin based on some Quintilian's text
>but the manuscripts show some minor but irreconcilable differences
>we don't even really know what Quintilian was referring to

I hate academic publishers so much it's unreal.

I hate grammar so much it's unreal. No I don't know what a "intransive-possessive verbal subject" means, I don't care to learn either. Just explain it in basic terms instead of faggy complicated words.

>>22920725
The reason why people use these explanations is that they are understood immediately by and are a help for people who learn multiple languages.

>>22920753
I'm a man who knows several languages and I know jack shit about grammar, both that of the languages I know and the general terminology used when explaining it. To me all the extensive writing about this form and that form and the subject of the impassive verbal cuckold is nothing but irritating, meaningless chatter.

>>22920914

I somewhat agree. I was able to read Dr. Seuss to mom at age 3, and I took some test in elementary school which suggested that I was reading at or near college freshman level. I did well in school when I applied myself, but then I took a small unit on grammar toward the end of high school and I failed the test. I didn't know a subjunctive from a gerund. Like you, it was noise to me. I simply understood what works and what doesn't, without knowing the technical terms.

>>22920914
>wah i have to understand what words mean
piger es

>>22920924
Homer probably didn't either, but that doesn't make it useless. It provides a way to discuss language itself and make comparisons across different languages.

>>22920930
That's what it comes down to, yes. I admit that I am at fault for never bothering to learn the terminology used when explaining a language's grammar, but the whole situation seems stupid to me. You have dozens of long sentences full of shitty jargon, and at the end of the day what are they describing? In this sentence with this specific word and that specific one, "X" thing becomes "Y". That's fucking it. It's not weird for those who research grammar to come up with their own terminology, but there's way too many words. Doesn't help that even the explanations for the terms tend to have a bunch of jargon mixed in. From my perspective it looks like a bunch of faggots jacking eachother off with big boy words, or like a thousand years of detailed research being forcefully collapsed into a single small object.

>>22920983
What filtered you?

>>22921038
No one thing in particular, for the last decade grammar has always been that one thing that I'll learn when I need it™ and I'm still "just waiting for a good reason to begin."

Is this a common career path for the average /lit/inist?

>>22920983
>there's way too many words

>>22920725
You're absolutely right. There's no reason to communicate like this if it is not universally helpful. When I read this, I would assume he's talking about a genitive gerund but since they're nouns it becomes irrelevant, in every language I've seen, whether it was transitive or intransitive before because it's operating as a noun now.

>>22920725
>>22921155
Or he means verbs that connect to personal pronouns showing ownership without taking objects. I can't think of a single one because possessives necessarily always indicate an object and allow for either objective case to be used.

Either way this is a clear case of idiotic self fellating with a hint of hoping no one challenges him on it.

nōlī querī sed labōrā, piger inūtilis

>>22920983
Honestly, I learned the terminology the first time round (just skimming the wikipedia page when a term I didn't know came up) and I've gotten so much mileage out of it. Especially since I've stayed broadly within IE languages. You require so much less explanation, and a lot carries over.

@22921122
Don't pollute a classical language thread by mentioning espe*anto

βάμπων γλυκὺν ὕπνον ἀσπάζομαι

>>22920188
meds

>>22920983
If you don't understand the jargon used in w/e you are reading, it means you don't have the required knowledge because you skipped the basics. Either go back and learn the basics or if you are too lazy to do so try your luck in just reading text in your TL and figure it out yourself. Either way stop fucking complaining.

>>22922143
gn? (i don't recognize βάμπων)

>>22922895
it's bumping I think

>>22920587

>>22916891
/Int/ has been kinda useless.
Are there good books for learning chinese by yourself? I know I will need to study the sounds by other methods but I really learn a lot faster when reading by myself.

>>22923320
have you checked the FAQ and the infographic by our local CC anon? https://i.imgur.com/KepkfBW.jpg

>>22923368
nvm if you are asking about modern Chinese, maybe sinoanon will be able to help you anyway

>>22923379
Yup its modern chinese. I hope one day I might read the I-ching in the "original" format but there is a loooooong way to there.

>>22923368
>>22923382
>>22923379
>that jpg
Huh I was not aware that I could learn classical chinese without knowing chinese first. hmmmm

thread's slow because everyone is studying HARD

Reaching out to other classicists here...where do we go for long lasting print versions of the classics in Latin and Greek? There's Loeb's but they have essentially double shelf space with the facing pages in English.

I started collecting some of the Oxford Classical Texts but ran into the following:
- older print runs have excellent print quality and binding, but acidic paper which is already yellowing and will disintegrate in another 50-100 years
- newer print runs on higher pH paper, but print quality is utter trash and the bindings are just glue

I've started collecting nicely bound, archival quality books for modern Western classics (Easton Press...yes I know, don't start), but there's nothing equivalent for antiquity in the original. It's beyond alarming to think these works may only survive (for a short while) going forward as digital scans.

I'm honestly thinking about getting into bookbinding, to make small runs of leather bound archival quality "forever editions". As we descend into Idiocracy, the leather to ensure the books get passed-on and survive, and archival quality paper to ensure there's something left of the book to rebind in 500 years.

I'm know I'm schizo but at the rate we're going, The Classics may only survive 200-300 years from now on some weirdo's hard drive, with the 70 IQ masses going "hurr durr dead languages".

>>22924427
Outside the internet it's already very difficult to find classics in their original languages. No library or new book store hold them. Most used book stores won't buy non-english works and especially not greek or latin. The best place to find these books is unironically in house junk sales and college art departments which buy old books to use in whatever nafarious art projects

>>22924456
> No library or new book store hold them.
University libraries, at least in Europe, are chock full of them.

>>22924427
>I'm honestly thinking about getting into bookbinding, to make small runs of leather bound archival quality "forever editions".
That's a genuinely good idea and I recommend you actually follow through with this. I would do it too but I'm too lazy, retarded and poor.
>I'm know I'm schizo
You're not. This is a perfectly valid concern, one that has been held by people for millennia now, and there's absolutely nothing for you to lose from doing so.

>>22924427
I remember Teubner's being quite good. Otherwise you can just get new Oxford's rebound
.

>>22924459
I don't know if you're talking about academic archive stuff that's tucked away in the back room avaliable only to people with permission, because that's not what I mean. I mean books that any random person can go in and read, becuase that stuff isn't in university libraries. University libraries are filled with teenage comic books, parenting guides, and books by shitty modern authors that nobody is ever going to read

>>22924625
I'm indeed talking about academic, critical editions in classical languages. Not medieval manuscripts, for those you'll need permission (I guess? Never tried it.), but for everything published in the last 200 years or so, every rando can go in and read to his heart's content without even having to identify himself (I know, because I'm doing exactly that).

>>22924427
This should be done. Honestly some rich guy should dig a bunker somewhere and have valuable books laser-etched into steel plates or something.

>>22924625
>University libraries are filled with teenage comic books, parenting guides, and books by shitty modern authors that nobody is ever going to read
le what? I live in fucking brazil and I can find classics in their language + old and modern foreign and national books.

>>22924747
Americans aren't allowed to read the classics without supervision.

>>22924747
Yeah, really wondering where the guy lives. I can imagine that his university library doesn't have a Classics department, but then they simply don't have the books on hand. It's not a matter of
> tucked away in the back room avaliable only to people with permission

>>22924456
>No library or new book store hold them.
Where the fuck do you live

>>22924519
>You're not. This is a perfectly valid concern, one that has been held by people for millennia now

The validation is greatly appreciated...I read Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" recently...so much of the ancient corpus was lost last time around. If you don't subscribe to a Fukuyama-ist End of History take on events, and instead wonder if history is a bit more cyclical than we realize, the mind starts to wonder: what happens the next time the Ostrogoths or the Sea Peoples come around, and again only 2% of ancient works survive?

What if this time around, we're in effect the barbarians, slowly razing our libraries not with fire but with neglect and ignorance?

>>22924735

Or you could engrave/impress the whole Loeb's collection on ceramic plates, similar to cuneiform tablets, then bury it all like some literary equivalent of the Terracotta Army...or you could buy the whole print collection and gift it to your local Benedictine monastery. Perhaps the most bat shit idea of all is that *anything* can be done to protect our little printed scraps of wisdom, short of creating Asimov's Foundation.

>>22924846
>and again only 2% of ancient works survive?
That's honestly what I expect to happen. I do not think of this(death and rebirth of the world) to be too bad either, as it is we are essentially late Rome on steroids, but this time also encompassing the whole world. Economy, education and culture have been in freefall for ages, the world is moving via nothing but the increasingly weakening stream of new technology. Oh, and bread & circus too. At that point it'll be a downward cycle.
Note also that all it takes is a big ray from the sun to obliterate 99% of electronic gadgets and render their contents unintelligible.
>this time around, we're in effect the barbarians, slowly razing our libraries not with fire but with neglect and ignorance?
I do think so, yes. I doubt any "sea peoples" or anything similar to them in role will be any better though. Talks about doom aside though, what you're thinking of truly is virtuous. Those 2% of ancient works only survived because people felt a sense of fear and thought to copy down the books, or to hide them somewhere in an attempt to preserve them, which is the same as what you're doing now. Any attempt on your side to preserve things might prove to be unfruitful and meaningless, but there's also just as good a possibility that it'll help people in the future greatly, even if only in the form of giving your great-great-grandson a big book that he can pawn off for a lot of money.

>>22923320
DO NOT

>le zoomers are the end of le world
lmao every fucking retarded boomer in history thinks the world is ending. No, the economy has not been in "free fall". No the classics won't be "lost" in your or your grandchildrens lifetime. No we are not in "late rome", if you think that you know nothing about history you fucking idiots.

>>22925057
>reddit filename
don't even need to comment this little bioleninist's shitpost further

>>22925057
I do not see what Dow Jones has to do with any of this.

>>22925057
>"line go up"
>retardnoises.mp3

In trying to reassure us, you have only proven our point. Please stop.

>le line going up is le bad

What things would I be able to read if I learned Aramaic

>>22925480
Usually. Everything comes at the cost of something, the higher those stocks go up the higher general inflation is. We would expect it to rise or fall dramatically when inflation or deflation is dramatic. Too much rise or fall in this case is a bad thing for the average person- only super invested corpos benefit at all and everyone loses.

>>22925505
>this is what communists actually believe

>>22925057
Not even CPI inflation adjusted, much less indexed to something with fewer lies like the price of an acre of farmland.

>>22925702
if it was the end of civilization the price of an acre of farmland would be fuck all

>>22925717
I'm not familiar with that valuation. Is it many dollars? I'd think it would be very many dollars.

>>22925736
its 0 dollars retard, nobody is going to buy a farm if "Sea people" are pillaging it

>>22924758
my university has all the loebs in its library, but the octs and other books we have are with the classics department, which is usually locked.

>>22924846
the truth is that the ostrogoths weren't the primary party responsible for the destruction, it was people who didn't copy the old works.

>>22925873
>yes goy remain in the big cities those are safe and you can produce food there

>>22919065
>and it seems to me, though I could be wrong, that the Swedish pitch accent is much simpler than the Greek one is purported to be
True, but I believe the Serbo-Croatian and Lithuanian system are more complicated.
>A significant issue in general would be that pitch accent users don't seem to really be aware that they're using it, naturally, and that this would cause problems in trying to reconstruct it in a different language.
I mean obviously you'd want to try it with a linguistically-aware speaker of the language. (Though I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to get a layman to notice the pitch accent.)

>>22919607
I don't know of any, but they probably exist on the Sinophone internet. (Also you know you can use Discord in browser, right? That's what I do)

Why is everybody talking about the end of the world instead of the much more terrible fact that we were lied about the fucking sonus medius?

>>22920404
I have a copy of Sun Tzu like that which is from Chartwell Books; if there are others like it they're probably from them. Your options are broader if you can read a modern East Asian vernacular.

>>22920753
Grammatical terms rarely map exactly across languages, though. Like Latin and Turkish both have something called an accusative case, but the set of circumstances under which they're used is roughly similar but not exactly the same.

>>22921122
Esperanto estas bazita.

>>22926126
I read somewhere (I'll try to post the source later) that the real difference between intensive and pitch accent is that the first affects the entire syllable while the second only a specific mora or morae, thus giving the impression that it can raise or fall inside a syllable with a long vowel and therefore being interpreted as musical.

>>22923386
Of course you can, just like you can learn Latin without knowing French first.

>>22926143
>thus giving the impression
I mean it gives the impression of raising and falling inside a long vowels because indeed the first and the second mora can be differently accented.

>>22924625
You can request an interlibrary loan at your local library, that's something at least.

>>22924735
If you're going for maximum durability, wouldn't the even more valuable thing than classical texts be scientific and technical information about how to re-kickstart civilization in the event of catastrophe? Not that classical texts aren't valuable.

>>22926139
troon language
>unnatural
>pretends to be something it is not
>dead

>>22926155
lmao the catastrophe affects only the west and it's actually a suicide, chink bugs are going to thrive

>>22926156
It literally has native speakers. By no conceivable definition of the word is it dead.

>>22924427
>>22924456
>>22924519
>>22924735
>>22924846
>>22924905
>>22925914
In terms of preservation, could there be some role for memorization and teaching the text orally to people? There are some Confucian texts that survived the Burning of Books and Burying of Scholars that way, for instance, and a lot of Indian classical texts were also transmitted orally for a long time.

>>22926161
: having the appearance of death : DEATHLY
in a dead faint
: lacking power to move, feel, or respond : NUMB
my arm feels dead
: very tired
Our legs were completely dead after the hike.
: incapable of being stirred emotionally or intellectually : UNRESPONSIVE
a heart dead to pity
felt dead inside
: grown cold : EXTINGUISHED
dead coals
: INANIMATE, INERT
dead matter
: BARREN, INFERTILE
dead soil
: no longer producing or functioning : EXHAUSTED
a dead battery
: lacking power or effect
a dead law
: no longer having interest, relevance, or significance
a dead issue
: no longer in use : OBSOLETE
: no longer active : EXTINCT
: lacking in gaiety or animation
a dead party
: lacking in commercial activity : QUIET
The city is dead after five o'clock.
: commercially idle or unproductive
dead capital
: lacking elasticity
a dead tennis ball
: being out of action or out of use
The phone went dead.
specifically, electrical engineering : free from any connection to a source of voltage and free from electric charges
a dead electrical circuit
sports and games : being out of play
a dead ball
croquet : temporarily forbidden to play or to make a certain play
: not running or circulating : STAGNANT
dead water
: not turning
the dead center of a lathe
mechanical engineering : not imparting motion or power although otherwise functioning
a dead rear axle
: lacking warmth, vigor, or taste
The fire was dead.
a dead wine

>>22926162
Sure, in a situation of total chaos where the entire infrastructure of civilization is collapsing to the point not even books will be spared people will start memorizing and transmitting ancient epic poems, thousands and thousands of verses, not to mention obscure treatises and philosophical works.
I assume you've already learned by heart at least the Odyssey and the Iliad and a few dialogues of Plato, right?

>>22926130
Searching for 筆談をする, 漢文で話す etc leads to absolutely no proper hits. I blame the shitty modern search engines.
>>22926134
Couldn't find that book on pirate sites, sadly.
>Your options are broader if you can read a modern East Asian vernacular.
...I probably should have realised this by myself. I'll look into it later.

>>22924905
Yes, the sun storm ray thing effect and/or magnetic pole shift really are a big deal especially when it comes to how much we really on electronic storage nowadays. I feel like we, as a culture, might just kind of end up forgetting that storage is vulnerable at all, since we've grown to assume that whatever we want is always "somewhere", always auto-preserved in the great invulnerable cloud from which I pilfer pdfs. We might lose everything just because we've forgotten that it's possible to lose something.

>sir, it seems there's no trace of st. Augustine anywhere at all
>have you tried restarting the computer, son? have you rebooted the internet?

>>22925057
I'm glad the aristocratic inhabitants of this thread have already responded entirely adequately to your Klaus Schwab argument, but I do want to pile on and call you names.

>>22926155
The thing is that I don't really doubt someone would be doing that already. You've got to think of what would be left out by a dying culture, and it probably won't be nintendo technology or goyslop engines that people will forget about.

Hey guys, the stock market went up again today, should I etch my favorite classical texts in latin and greek into a stone slab for preservation from the impeding collapse since rocks have the longest durability?

>>22926162
Definitely, yes, but that's very much a community thing. You'd need to beget a culture that'd have incentive to orally preserve a text for thousands of years, and such a text would likely be religious in nature, such as e.g. the Rigveda was.

Using clay tables like the Sumerian did would be the only realistic way to do it:
>Cheap
>Durable
And most important
>Useless for anything else
Valuable materials like metals or stone will be repurposed sooner or later.

>>22926268
Etch it into your bones if you're a real man.

>>22926198
And none of those describe it. It is full of life. Just try actually observing an Esperanto convention some time instead of sitting in your armchair and guessing from first principles.

>>22926210
Not yet, but I have memorized some Chinese texts and am interested in memorizing more.
>>22926227
Seems like you know some Japanese at least.

>>22926267
Eh, plenty of science and technology has been lost before. Roman concrete? Greek fire? Damascus steel?
>>22926268
You might etch them in clay and bake it, that's how a bunch of Mesopotamian texts survived to our day. (Though the Latin script isn't really made for etching in clay.)

>>22926299
>try actually observing an Esperanto convention
>convention
fucking lmao, so no real use whatsoever? just a fucking larp? not even some random courses in some europoor university? i bet english is more used in those conventions than that joke of a language...
it is as alive as frankenstein's monster was, i give you that. let it be forgotten once and for all and put it out of his misery kek
ps. interlingua is superior in every aspect

>>22926325
>fucking lmao, so no real use whatsoever? just a fucking larp?
It's used for communication by people with no other language in common (i.e. who couldn't understand each other otherwise). There are websites and books and movies in it. If that doesn't count as real use what does?
>not even some random courses in some europoor university?
I think a few universities have courses somewhere?
>i bet english is more used in those conventions than that joke of a language...
It's discouraged to use a national language when "in Esperanto-land", because it's rude to people of other nations who might not understand it.
>it is as alive as frankenstein's monster was, i give you that.
The whole point of Frankenstein is that the 'monster' wasn't born inherently evil but was made that way by being hated and shunned by society.

>>22926335
>The whole point of Frankenstein
The whole was that it was ugly as hell and stank as the mash of corpses it was.
What kind of mental illness compels someone to learn that shit and then shit up a thread about classical languages?

>>22926341
>mash of corpses
That was something later movie adaptations decided on. The original novel is intentionally vague about how exactly the creature is created.

>>22926341
>a thread about classical languages
Esperanto IS a classical language, with its own history, evolution and literary cannon. If anything, Esperanto should be the only language discussed here, since its classical period and literature are well known and immediately comprehensible, unlike your disgusting l*tinx, which is nothing else than a random phase of that language, which can't be grasped natively and therefore, to some degree, gone forever: you're not discussing classical languages, your discussing RECONSTRUCTED languages.
How did people reach the conclusion that REconstructued languages are better than constructed ones, I wonder? Logically, it is clear than the opposite is the case, since the knowledge of one is absolute, while the other is purely speculative.

Nolite cinaedo esperantistae respondere

>>22926425
cope chud

>>22926424
Mius je spesmiloj vet' je kelkdek, ke neverdas vi.

>>22926478
Classicality is a social construct; the Esperanto community recognizes foundational and classical authors; Esperanto is a classical language.

Tupi-guarani languages are classical languages.

>>22919097
The language itself can sound fine theoretically, but the way poetry is typically read (like in that video) and Quran recitation sounds like complete dogshit, I don't understand how people can stand listening to that shit

>>22925481
Aramaic texts

Where do I start with classical Esperanto? Can I learn it without learning modern Esperanto first?

fortem fierī cōnfiteor sed nesciō quōmodo accidat. dēbeōne sanguinem leōnis, ut Sinēnsēs, bibere vel cadāveribus hostium meōrum, ut Pellēs Rubræ, vēscī?

>>22919097
god hated the romans so much they got turned into italians as a punishment

>>22926865
I wish God hated my people, too.

Esperanto will never be a real language. It has no corpus, no notable authors, no native speakers, no community past or present, unused in any government in any capacity. It is merely a mockery of a real language which it can never be

>>22927027
>Esperanto will never be a real language.
wrong
>It has no corpus,
wrong
>no notable authors,
wrong
>no native speakers,
wrong
>no community past or present,
wrong
>unused in any government in any capacity.
wrong
>It is merely a mockery of a real language which it can never be
wrong

>>22927027
>l*t*n will never be a real language. It has no corpus, no notable authors, no native speakers, no community past or present, unused in any government in any capacity. It is merely a mockery of a real language which it can never be

FUCK LATIN YOUR KIDS WILL SPEAK ESPERANTO

>>22926424
Lmao no it is not classical. Hebrew and Arabic are not even classical.

>>22926865
I love Italians.

>>22927027
You know you're trolling because he's going to over react. I think it'll honestly be cool when the corpus of Esperanto grows and ages into fine wine.

>>22927039
Alright settle down now

>>22926515
Alnias de vi mok'; se vias je mialikred' vol', esprime tion verdu.

>>22927027
>It has no corpus
There are tens of thousands of volumes, and metric tons more on the Internet.
>no notable authors
Auld? Kalocsay? Baghy? Schwarz? Sekelj? Boulton?
>no native speakers
I've literally met native Esperanto speakers.
>no community past or present
Most estimates say about a million speakers.
>unused in any government in any capacity
That's the majority of languages on Earth, because there are about 6000-7000 languages on Earth and only about 200 countries.

>>22916891
>the Nilus
SPACEMAN SAYS EVERYBODY LOOK DOWN

>>22927297
>Auld? Kalocsay? Baghy? Schwarz? Sekelj? Boulton?
Who? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?

>I've met
Who?

>Estimate is half what it was ten years ago

>That's the majority of languages on Earth, because there are about 6000-7000 languages on Earth and only about 200 countries.

Okay good point

>>22927297
>tens of thousands of volumes
More like a few millions actually

Ah, Esperanto, the language invented to be used at Esperanto conventions.

>>22927326
Latin was invented for Latin conventions, to be fair.

You just don't like Esperanto because it was created by a Jewish person. Latin lost, Esperanto won, get over it, chuds.

>>22927364
wtf I hate Esperanto now. I can't believe I defended you

>>22927352
There aren't any l*tin conventions. It was artificially created in the middle ages by the church purely as a circle jerking language. Honestly its teaching should be banned from public school and universities.

>>22927376
I was referring to the forums of Latium. The forum is the cultural hub of Rome and early Latium, much like how 4chan is now only they were less polite and used hand gestures instead of memes.

But no, I don't think it's medieval. There are literal stones going back before the immediate classical period written in Latin. It's about as old as early Aramaic. I don't know why you'd want to ban it considering the number of quality Latin authors. If we're splitting hairs here, I think most are going to take Tacitus over Schwarz (again, who?).

>>22927364
natürlich

>>22927304
>Who? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?
How many languages with a million speakers or so have produced globally known writers?
>Who?
Stela Besenyei is one- you can see video on YouTube of her talking about growing up with Esperanto. There's also a short film, also available on Youtube, called "Esperanto: Like a Native".
>>Estimate is half what it was ten years ago
Estimates are highly variable depending on who you ask, and depend on what level of knowledge you count as "a speaker".

>>22927383
The total literary value of Latin is probably still greater but like... have you read La Infana Raso?

>>22927406
No and I'm not going to because I have just been informed:>>22927393
>>22927364


I am washing my hands of this mess!

>>22927406
Wait a second...

>look up poem name
>look up influence
>(((Ezra))) Pound
>Okay here we go
>"Angered by the carnage of World War I, Pound blamed the war on finance capitalism, which he called ((("usury")))."
>based Ezra??

>>22927436
Every poet has a lot of influences, I'm not sure what your point here is.

>>22927480
You're replying to a /pol/ tourist who didn't know Pound and expected him to be Jewish, based on the name.
For some reason, this general really took a nosedive with the current thread, and it wasn't especially good before.

>>22927497
thank the esperantists

>>22925873
The only items of value in a bronze age collapse, or civil war, are weapons, food, and shelter. It should concern you that you didn't realize this.

>>22926275
Clay would eventually get used up as well, since it has a few uses, like as part of making new pots. But no one would bother to dig it up I don't think.

>>22927511
Esperantists, plural? I'd be thrilled if there any others here besides me, but I've seen no evidence of this.

>>22927511
No, it started at the latest with the guy who lamented the state of university libraries, evidently without ever having set foot in one.

Post your favourite passages
Tum uero exoritur clamor gemitusque meorum,
et feriunt maestae pectora nuda manus.
Tum uero coniunx umeris abeuntis inhaerens
miscuit haec lacrimis tristia uerba meis:
"non potes auelli. Simul ah!, simul hibimus:" inquit,
"te sequar et coniunx exulis exul ero.
Et mihi facta uia est, et me capit ultima tellus:
accedam profugae sarcina parua rati.
Te iubet e patria discedere Caesaris ira,
me pietas. Pietas haec mihi Caesar erit."
Talia temptabat, sicut temptauerat ante,
uixque dedit uictas utilitate manus.
Egredior,(siue illud erat sine funere ferri?)
squalidus inmissis hirta per ora comis.

>>22927572
He isn't the one who's shitting up the thread with retarded offtopic shit, you fucking retard. This specific thread has gone to shit exclusively because of that little shit sperging about his conlang cult.

>>22927575
Balnea, vina, Venus corrumpunt corpora nostra,
Sed vitam faciunt balnea, vina, Venus

>>22927575
Recently a friend called my attention to 蒹葭, and damn it's actually really good.
蒹葭蒼蒼、白露為霜。
所謂伊人、在水一方。
遡洄從之、道阻且長。
遡遊從之、宛在水中央。
蒹葭淒淒、白露未晞。
所謂伊人、在水之湄。
遡洄從之、道阻且躋。
遡遊從之、宛在水中坻。
蒹葭采采、白露未已。
所謂伊人、在水之涘。
遡洄從之、道阻且右。
遡遊從之、宛在水中沚。

>>22927601
I am vomit

>>22927601
Just three white blocks and a z over and over. How much do you have to zoom in to read that stuff?

>ὣς Ἀχιλεὺς λαιψηρὰ πόδας καὶ γούνατ’ ἐνώμα.
>Τὸν δ’ ὃ γέρων Πρίαμος πρῶτος ἴδεν ὀφθαλμοῖσι
>παμφαίνονθ’ ὥς τ’ ἀστέρ’ ἐπεσσύμενον πεδίοιο,
>ὅς ῥά τ’ ὀπώρης εἶσιν, ἀρίζηλοι δέ οἱ αὐγαὶ
>φαίνονται πολλοῖσι μετ’ ἀστράσι νυκτὸς ἀμολγῷ·
>ὅν τε κύν’ Ὠρίωνος ἐπίκλησιν καλέουσι.
>λαμπρότατος μὲν ὅ γ’ ἐστί, κακὸν δέ τε σῆμα τέτυκται
>καί τε φέρει πολλὸν πυρετὸν δειλοῖσι βροτοῖσιν·
>ὣς τοῦ χαλκὸς ἔλαμπε περὶ στήθεσσι θέοντος.

>>22927595
Some late stage decadence right there.

>>22927615
The font size on 4chan is optimized for Latin script, which is less visually complex on the level of individual characters. That said, you don't necessary have to see every stroke clearly, just the overall shape of the character.

>>22927591
Isn't he the same guy who was always shitting the thread with LLPSI and the natural method and then turned out he didn't even started studying Latin?

>>22927611
Seconded and checked

>>22927636
>>22927591
This is two different people talking about three other people lmao

per aspera

hic hac hoc
huius huius huius

>>22927739
> hac
It's haec.

>>22927782
>>22927782
Hac is ablative feminine so it is a word.

>>22927782
hæc

>>22927535
No, land prices are based off of security. Go look up the 5 year land prices for farmland near the ukranian front. In a civilizational collapse nobody is buying farmland, thats WHY its a civilizational collapse. Your idea of how society functions is incredibly shallow

>>22927782
yeah i just looked it over
after three hours of latin my brain is just fried
at least class starts again on the 17th and not the 15th
>huic huic huic

>>22925002
why not?

Any of you guys know where I can get a good anki deck for ancient Greek?

I think Luke Ranieri should make a Latin anki deck and charge $20 USD for it
He could read out the word and then the example sentence for that word

>>22928138
No want a dictionary of Goebbels speeches read by Dagoth Ur.

>Γέρων ποτὲ ξύλα κόψας, καὶ ταῦτα φέρων, πολλὴν ὁδὸν ἐβάδιζε.
Senex aliquandō ligna scissum, et hæc ferēns, longam viam ībat.

>Διὰ δὲ τὸν κόπον τῆς ὁδοῦ ἀποθέμενος τὸ φορτίον τὸν Θάνατον ἐπεκαλεῖτο.
Sed, ob lassitūdinem viæ, onus dēpositum, mortem invocāvit.

>Τοῦ δὲ Θανάτου φανέντος καὶ πυθομένου δι’ ἣν αἰτίαν αὐτὸν παρακαλεῖται, ὁ γέρων ἔφη· «Ἵνα τὸ φορτίον ἄρῃς.»
Et mors appārita, et rogātus [senem] quā de causā se invocāvisset, senex dīxit, “ut onus [ā mē] tollās.”

>Ὁ μῦθος δηλοῖ ὅτι πᾶς ἄνθρωπος φιλόζωος, [ἐν τῷ βίῳ] κἂν δυστυχῇ.
Fābula indicat omnem hominem cupidum vitæ, etiamsī īnfēlīcem sit.

Translation for the day done. I chuckled when I finally got it.

>>22927401
>or so have produced globally known writers?
Espranto has the same literary output as Tongan, so, the majority of languages have done more.

>>22919269
Today is Day 3 of Old Persian. The class is mostly composed of boomers, and my friend, the one who begged me to take this class, and I are the youngest people in the class. The tutor often gets sidetracked by questions and Sanskrit linguistic evidence, and we clearly are not going to make it through the textbook. The tutor is clearly very passionate and knowledgeable about Indo-European linguistics, which is a great benefit to the class. If you are an almost autodidact, one of these MALS summer school classes would be a good introduction. The class occurs in the evening in America, and there are plenty of breaks. Homework is not required. A non-NEET could easily take this class.
I have made a few updates to the MEGA and will continue to do so. One of the things I did in the past week, which is reflected in the MEGA, was download and collate the entirety of the journal Aramaic Studies. I will soon upload my collection of the journal Aethiopica. Aethiopica is open-access, but there are several articles that are only available in the print version, a few of which I have made scans of.

>>22928558
huh?

>>22928558
>The class occurs in the evening in America
sounds like the begining of a nice day, anon.

how do you pronounce words that start with ξ in greek, like ξυστοφόροι? Also why is there 20 different words for "come" and "go", aren't πορεύω and ερχομαι stems enough?

>>22927977
Probably because they're a /pol/tourist.

>>22928517
The majority of languages? You know there are about six or seven thousand languages on Earth, right?

>>22929390
>how do you pronounce words that start with ξ in greek, like ξυστοφόροι?
As they're spelled, with /ks/. This may be tricky to get used to if your native language doesn't allow sounds to go together like that.

>>22929394
ksystoforoi? how do you even pronounce that?

>>22929505
Try looking up some Ξ-words on Forvo.

>>22929505
Also if you wanna be technical, in Ancient Greek φ was pronounced as an aspirated P, not F.

>潘章少有美容儀,時人競慕之。楚國王仲先,聞其美名,故來求為友,章許之。因願同學,一見相愛,情若夫婦,便同衾共枕,交好無已。後同死,而家人哀之,因合葬於羅浮山。冢上忽生一樹,柯條枝葉,無不相抱。時人異之,號為共枕樹
GITWM

What's the best textbook for Ancient Greek
Just out of interest

found my first ecum in place of equum

>>22929942
tl; dr there isn't, there are good or popular choices such as those in the FAQ
good luck

>>22925481
It depends on the dialect, and there are many dialects. Knowing one dialect makes learning another much easier, but they are separated by different grammar, vocab, genre, time period, and script. Do you want to read Syriac theology, Old Aramaic inscriptions, Talmud, Mandaic, etc?

>>22916891
There's apparently major drama going down on the accepted pronounciation of Ancient Greek, anyone familiar can fill me in?

https://twitter.com/noemonas/status/1744822639636455622

>Luke Ranieri and several academic departments have recognised 3 massive issues with reconstructed: 1) Lingual retention is impossible for them. 2) Root identification is harder. 3) Exegesis is much harder. 4) Chroma is missing from the language due to missing 6 basic chromatic consonants. 5) Babel Tower problem, every Erasmian is another dialect on their own person. Intelligibility is near impossible and only achievable for the real masters but never for the students.
>Link: gervatoshav.blogspot.com/200... Please read the comments
>Recognizing openly these issues and identifying that we need a solid globally fixed system of teaching Greek, there is a debate between Randall Buth and Benjamin Kantor (supporting the living Greek) on one side and Luke Ranieri on the other supporting literally the average between his Erasmian and proper living Greek. Luke has youtube (where the one-eyed man leads the blind with pop quotes), Buth and Kantor have the academics and the Religious studies on their side as well as the actual epigraphical legwork, as they rely on real evidence while Ranieri, Allen et al rely on misinterpreted jokes and misquoted Grammarians. The matter is effectively closed. People have not caught up yet.
>youtube.com/watch?v=XUkoNiyR…

>>22930746
>major drama
>on the accepted pronounciation
Just ignore it. Ignore.

>>22929393
I'll have you know, every one of the thousand languages created by the illustrated people of New Guinea has an immense catalog of written works!

>>22929390
X as in eliXir (rendered as ks)
I as in hItler
S as in niggerS
T as in Talmud
O as in Ominous
F as in Friend
R as in Rape
OI as I

You can remember it as Friend, Ominous Talmudic Nigger Rape Hitler Elixir

>>22930749
Considering that it's about which one is going to be taught as the official, and some have already shifted, I'm very much interested thank you.

>>22930773
There is really no reason to care at all about what a bunch of virgins think about how X or Y should be pronounced. All the more when both sides are just desperately vying for attention on social media, and their actions are going to have a grand total of zero meaning and result. Feel free to ignore them.

>>22930810
Actually good point.

The debate exists only in the minds of Ranieri and the noobs that follow him.

>>22930746
The writing isn't very clear.

>>22930765
>I as in hItler
Technically the vowel quality is closer to machIne
>S as in niggerS
No, that's /z/.
>T as in Talmud
Technically that's aspirated- a more accurate approximation would be T as in sTalin. But modern Greek (which you seem to be using) doesn't contrast aspiration, so it's not a big deal.
>O as in Ominous
This is just misleading for most Americans, for whom the vowel is closer to /ɑ/. The exact sound of Greek O doesn't exist in English, but for those who say "cot" and "caught" differently, the vowel of "caught" is a decent approximation; for those who don't, try to say the vowel in "coat" but without the "w" sound at the end.
>R as in Rape
Since Greek uses a tapped R, for most Americans the closer approximation would be the T in buTTer.

>>22931041
This is wrong lmao

Greek pronunciation peaked before υ turned into /y/ and /o:/ to /u:/

>>22931054
I have no idea and am not even trying to learn Greek, but clearly the other post, >>22931041, is better than yours.

How do I properly do the Grammar-Translation method?

>>22931157
Btw I'm wondering whether you're supposed to always translate or only if you cannot read something

>>22931096
Greek pronounciation peaked in early Mycenaean times desu

for me, it's american english phonetics no matter the language.

>>22930765
I obviously only care about the XY starting the word part since there is nothing in english like it or we pronounce it completely different like xylophone

>>22916891
How come the Greeks knew about the existence of India but not Britain or Scandinavia?

>>22931360
that's just up to Herodotus who apparently doesn't mention Britain in his histories, of course they knew later
guess they didn't explore much by then or heard about it from their westernmost colonies

>>22931360
Herodotus focusses his history on the area around Persia

Going through Classical Chinese for Everyone, and so far I am absolutely hating it. The author decided to not give translations for anything, so you have to find them yourself through shitty old search engines and shitty old websites, and sometimes he alters an existing line to be simpler than it is, so the translations for lines do not properly line up. Also, which fucking dumbass invented the art of teaching Classical Chinese through highbrow dipshit philosophy? You'd think they'd give you clear statements about X or Y, and once you've had enough of that and got a clear understanding of the language they'd start showing you excerpts from philosophy, medicine etc and ease you into it but instead they just vomit line after line of philosophy. Doesn't help that every single translator has his own silly little interpretation of what they mean.
I'll try to finish this quick and then try reading something in Classical Chinese. I'm itching to go and would like to do something other than be stuck, tormented by every line and faggot translators.

>>22931423
No he doesn't.

>>22931427
bro what?

>>22931437
What do you not get?

>>22931054
What's wrong with it?

>>22931427
>Also, which fucking dumbass invented the art of teaching Classical Chinese through highbrow dipshit philosophy? You'd think they'd give you clear statements about X or Y, and once you've had enough of that and got a clear understanding of the language they'd start showing you excerpts from philosophy, medicine etc and ease you into it but instead they just vomit line after line of philosophy.
You might try primer texts. Aside from the 三百千 which were traditional in China, there's also the 啓蒙篇 and the 蒙學漢文初階 which are Korean primers that actually treat it as a foreign language to be learned.

>>22931171
I learnt latin using that method and now I just have to translate those passages which are too hard for me, specially in poetry. Besides this, you after practicing a lot doing your translations will be able to read without any issue, plus the advantage of enjoying more any text because of your complete knowledge on grammar and syntax.

>>22931283
XD = ecks dee = cks + ee =cksee (but ee same as i in Xi (Jinping))

>>22931360
because india was next to the persian empire and herodotus only talked to people from the persian empire

>>22931360
Because there's nothing interesting there just frozen swamps

>>22931171
sometime after the point where the grammar isn't the main issue anymore but the lexicon is, that's probably where translating directly can slowly be left off and you can read more naturally, albeit of course still checking the dictionary for nouns
I think the key to get to the point of reading(though of course given the vastness of material and authors there can always be points where you have to stop and analyse things grammatically even years after you started) is to have a robust basic vocabulary hammered down, especially those words related to syntactical clues and with it the grammar
then at that point even if there are still a good amount of words that don't make the sentence intelligible, you can still figure out what kind of place they have in the phrase and this means you can often pick up their meaning by context

in any case consider whenever you translate some beginner text or easy work to re-read it afterwards, i,e try to read the original now that you broadly know the meaning and met its grammar

hey I'm thinking about getting a (relatively portable) latin dictionary for class this semester. Does anyone have any recommendations?

>>22930746
This isn't "major drama" this is twitter nonsense. He's also mainly wrong. Modern Greeks have a really hard time understanding that languages change. Not even ecclesiastical Latin fanatics are this silly. Just because English is my native language doesn't mean that I'm an expert on how Shakespeare should be pronounced. In fact, I would by nature pronounce it incorrectly, because of the vowel shift.

>>22932647
Collins.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/collins-latin-concise-dictionary-harpercollins-concise-dictionaries_collins-publishers_mary-wade/298498/item/2507557/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=77447028765158&pkw=&pmt=be&slid=&product=2507557&plc=&pgrid=1239149900899965&ptaid=pla-4581046492312228&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping+-+High+Vol+Backlist+-+Under+%2410&utm_term=&utm_content=%7cdc%7cpcrid%7c77447028765158%7cpkw%7c%7cpmt%7cbe%7cproduct%7c2507557%7cslid%7c%7cpgrid%7c1239149900899965%7cptaid%7cpla-4581046492312228%7c&msclkid=a3b9cc8903e919ec1c84a9166e2575ab#isbn=006053690X&idiq=2507557

There are new editions but this is mine.

बंप्

>>22932691
thanks anon.

>>22932666
Sup Luke
You lost btw

>>22932666
twitter and youtube nonsense yeah, important is what is settled in academia by experts
>Modern Greeks have a really hard time understanding that languages change
but this is irrelevant in this case and nobody actually cares since mycenaean and homeric are obviously not the same dialect to modern greek just by looking at them. contested by none

>>22934058
You're welcome

also it has a section on poetry, another section on place names in Latin, and basic grammar in the back. If they're not a huge textbook user you could have skipped wheelocks and just thumbed through the back of this to get adequate notes on the major topics. If you're trying to rush readings and writings then skipping a textbook and just using this would be good.

>>22931157
>hundreds of exercises to grind per chapter
>teaches formal Latin and English
Wheelock's by contrast only has a set of 20 problems per chapter. For me, this is a negative. You need more problems to solve and practice on. If you share my autism, this book will enlighten you.

>>22934978
I forgot to mention that Wheelock's also only gives you like three or four English to Latin problems whereas that book will have at least 40 per chapter.

>>22934978
Is English-Latin translation an essential element in the Grammar-Translation method?

>>22932666
I just don't understand where the people shilling modern Greek pronunciation could possibly be coming from (besides Greece), since iotacism renders it pretty much completely retarded. Why would you ever pronounce the language such that ἡμεις and ὑμεις are exactly the same? Don't they understand that demotic Greek developed features to cope with iotacism in a way that Ancient Greek clearly does not possess?

>>22935353
Having the skill to go the other direction was and is as important for facilitating comprehension.

>>22935443
In my experience learning a modern language that isn't the case
It seems to me that English-TL translation is only helpful for being able to output

>>22935454
>tu me manques
You lack me = I miss you

In my high school we used those exercises to solidify vocab and idiomatic expressions to the point it was automatic. If you don't want to put in the effort you don't have to.

>>22935481
But you don't need to do that if you just want to input is my point, simply reading and listening is sufficient

>>22935635
>need
not sure if dumb or willfully obtuse
E-TL translation exercises help process and retain information. They are another way of absorbing difficult content. No reading exercise will rack your brain like composition.
If you don't want to do them then don't. Both I and the other anon are pointing this out to you. Neither of us has taken a hard stance on the issue yet you seem to be trying to make it an argument. No one mentioned need but you.

>>22935670
>Having the skill to go the other direction was and is as important for facilitating comprehension
I'm responding to this statement
That in his opinion, being able to translate from TL to English is as important as being able to translate from English to TL for facilitating comprehension

>>22935714
>facilitating
ah, so just dumb
no more replies, enjoy arguing with the series of tubes

>>22931427
You might try Barnes in supplement or instead. It addresses nearly every one of your complaints.

What word does Plato use for the Guardians in Greek? What about the Philosopher King?

>>22935791
should be φύλακες and ἄρχοντες/φιλόσοφοι, haven't dabbled into Plato yet though

>>22934978
>Wheelock's by contrast only has a set of 20 problems per chapter.

This was the big red flag for me when I tried Wheelocks. I knew it was over when in a single chapter they just throw at you the tables for all the personal pronouns (is/ea/id hic/haec/hoc ille/illa/illud). Even the supplemental workbook wasn't enough practice to absorb it all. It felt like I spent all my time learning about Latin, but never actually "learning Latin".

just curious, have anyone studied women philosophers.. or their connection to men philosophers.. like how their views varied.. its not my focus but i just realized it would be interesting

what did you find interesting?

>>22937060
All philosophers are lovers of wisdom
No women love wisdom
Therefore no women are philosophers

Abiit quam maxime amaveram femina
Abiit quae maxime amaveram (not quam)

Is this right?

whats the best order to read the Chinese classics?

>>22937551
First one.

>read homer
fuck i want to learn ancient greek
>read virgil
fuck i want to learn latin
>read the bible
fuck i want to learn hebrew

tf bros. it doesnt help that I have ADD and so focusing on one thing over and over like learning a language is really had and i inevitably give up after awhile

>>22937809
Exact same situation right now. Have to think about my daily schedule, things I want to do etc every single day just to keep myself on track and to stop this retarded desire to learn everything at once.

>>22937060
I only read books out of copyright. Could you list a few woman philosophers that are off copyright?

>>22937809
>>22937826
Isn't the oldest Bible in Greek? Anyhow I'd like to do the same but instead of Hebrew, I'd learn Sanskrit.

>>22937809
you can leverage that enthusiasm by starting with the elements that will compound over time. study latin first for grammar (start now so you're not writing this post again in 5 or 10 years time), but also spend a few hrs learning the greek/hebrew alphabets so you can sound out the words in those languages every time you see them in footnotes/commentaries/old books/whatever and passively gain familiarity with some vocabulary. anyway, you need to get at least some of this ancient shit down before you get derailed again:
>read goethe
fuck i want to learn german
>read dostoyevsky
fuck i want to learn russian
>read rabelais
fuck i want to learn fr-- wait, no i don't

would llpsi be the finefor grammar or would an actual grammar textbook be better?

Is Old Norse considered a "classical" language?

>>22938291
For the purposes of this thread, it is.

>>22927601
ah, that is a pretty nice bit of writing there
I'm sure you're familiar with 杜甫 and 公孙剑舞 but some other anons may not be so I'll post it here (my favourite poem)
昔有佳人公孫氏,一舞劍器動四方。
觀者如山色沮喪,天地為之久低昂。
㸌如羿射九日落,矯如群帝騖龍翔。
來如雷霆收震怒,罷如江海凝清光。
綾唇珠袖兩寂寞,晚有弟子傳芬芳。
臨潁美人在白帝,妙舞此曲神揚揚。
與餘問答既有以,感時撫事增惋傷。
先帝侍女八千人,公孫劍器初第一。
五十年間似反掌,風塵澒洞昏王室。
梨園弟子散如煙,女樂餘姿映寒日。
金粟堆前木已拱,瞿唐石城草蕭瑟。
玳筵急管曲復終,樂極哀來月東出。
老夫不知其所往,腳繭荒山轉愁疾。

>>22938091
LLPSI, at least Familia Romana, does teach you actual grammar in the grammar section at the end of each chapter

>>22938091
You should be using multiple resources. Yes, you can learn grammar from LLPSI but you'd learn grammar far more quickly by just doing what you SHOULD be doing, which is making an Anki deck and grinding declension and conjugation tables while doing LLPSI. Where you source the tables for your cards is irrelevant, Wikipedia works just fine (by the time it matters you will know where to look anyways).

>>22937631
Start with the Coonfucians, Daoists, and Legalists (the classics of the 百家 era) for philosophy and start from the Tang for poetry. Both with lead everywhere else.

曾子曰。士不可以不弘毅。
任重而道遠。仁以為己任。
不亦重乎。死而後已。不亦遠乎。
Just wanted to inform you that I repeatedly read 士 as 土 and spent a decent amount of time being baffled by what the fuck it is that I am reading. I feel slightly humiliated.

Haven't been here for a few months. Why is everyone learning Chinese now? Is Chinese at least cool? How hard is it? Doubt I will commit but you're all making me want to dabble.

>>22938947
Confusing 日 and 曰 is an initiation ritual, but confusing 士 and 土 is forever.

>>22938956
What's especially funny is that I have never confused 日 and 曰 in my life, and almost never confused 士 and 土 when reading Japanese. I guess my karma finally ran out?

>>22938955
Some OldChink discord found this thread and told everyone to come here and now half the posts are chinky. Could be worse, most of this particular thread was wasted on esperanto.

>>22927601
>>22938612
>>22938947
henlo pls help
>>22923320
>>22923382
>>22923386

>>22938955
>Why is everyone learning Chinese now?
I made an infographic that people seem to be using (linked in the FAQ.)
>Is Chinese at least cool?
If you're into poetry the only language I'd put in the same league is Greek. That doesn't mean it's similar to the Greek tradition, but it is at least equal in importance, in heights, and definitely greater in magnitude.
If you're into philosophy, it has entire schools of thought dealing with very different systems and concerns.
If you're into history, it has more recorded history with fewer gaps than anywhere else.
The biggest reward, I think, is access to the greatest literary tradition in the world that doesn't translate well. Good translations from Greek prose are scarce, but can be nearly as good as the original. Good translations from Chinese are near nonexistent.
>How hard is it? Doubt I will commit but you're all making me want to dabble.
See https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=33979
Also see my infographic in the FAQ

>>22938975
I've never been on discord in my life.

>>22938992
Modern Chinese topolects, including Mandarin and Cantonese, are not classical languages. Kindly take this to /int/.
I feel for you, though, so I will recommend Assimil's Chinese and Chao Der-Lin's textbook. Both are superior books, and neither will suffice alone. Learning Modern Chinese requires obsession.

I just realised that the Records of the Grand Historian and the Records of the Three Kingdoms are probably written in Classical Chinese
I've read that there is a lot of ambiguity in Classical Chinese so how does a more factual kind of writing work?

>>22939010
thanks
> Learning Modern Chinese requires obsession.
I am diagnosed with autism and I use my hyperfixations to procrastinate. I hope it helps lmao

>>22916891
How do I learn to appreciate Greek poetry? I've been studying for about a year and a half and it's just not sinking in.

>>22939014
>Records of the Grand Historian
The very model of Classical Chinese history writing. Read 左傳 first/instead though.
>Records of the Three Kingdoms
Half vernacular. Worth reading if you're into that sort of thing. I read it in Pleco for easy lookup of the references, which can get dizzying.

I HATE νεώς / ναῦς
Demotic is based solely for having abandoned retarded irregular nouns like these

>>22939404
Just use normalize it if you're writing on your own. I get that reading is sometimes tedious because some passages are Easter egg hunts.

cunnum lingere volo.

ὡς ἀφελόντες μεν πίεσιν γ' ἀποβάλλομεν ἡμεῖς
και μην γαρ τῳ χθες μέλλει μόνος το ἔθος
οὐδε τοσοῦτον ἔνεστι που ἡμῖν ἐξικνέσθαι
ἀλλὰ δοκεῖ δ' ἤδη εἶναι οἱ ὄντες ἀεί
ἔλαιον ἐστὶν ὁ λόγος

pertende ad finem & coronaberis

is there any difference between 1st and 2nd aorist or is it just a thematic vs athematic type of deal where it is just a spelling convention?

what on earth is the difference between ιδε and ιδου? does it really mean you only want them to glance with ιδου? or you use it for something that comes and goes? english doesn't really have a word for ιδου does it?

>>22939109
Which parts aren't landing for you? I can definitely see it not appealing to a modern reader but if you're able to get into the right mindset, it can be transporting.

>>22938067
>fuck i want to learn fr-- wait, no i don't
french is such an ugly and illogical language. it's amazing that there's so much good french poetry

>>22940146
The aorist forms differently. That's what makes it relevant to know. If you know something has a weak aorist you can basically just slap (η)σα on it and call it a day, whereas strong aorist stems will have to be memorized.

>>22940924
>ugly
Utterly subjective and not worth responding to, but

>illogical
When I learned French, coming from knowing several Germanic languages, and several classical ones, I found the grammar and syntax to be laughably easy, almost to a ridiculous degree. The textbook I was working from commented on it by saying something to the effect of French being basically as "logical" a language as can be without being artificial, and I would agree. French has nothing like the many, many Greek exceptions and different morphological classes, and it has nothing like the pedantic German pronoun declension and variable sentence order. French grammar looks to me as if it had been crafted for children, at least as someone who knows English. I personally chose to learn it with the idea that it would be easy because English has forced like half the vocabulary of the language on me already anyway, and I am always much more annoyed by learning vocabulary than grammar.
If you think French is "illogical" from the perspective of an English speaker, you really don't stand the slightest chance at learning Ancient Greek.

>>22937277
I'm a woman and I love wisdom. I know several other women who love wisdom. Therefore your second premise is false.

>>22937873
This article lists some notable names.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_philosophy

>>22938947
There's also 己 and 已 to beware of.

>>22938955
Classical Chinese is one of the five great classical languages of the world, historically speaking. It has tons and tons of literature. Some of the best poetry ever written is in Classical Chinese. The writing system is hard, but at least you don't have to memorize declension tables.

>>22941386
>five great classical languages of the world
Latin, Greek, Chinese, Sanskrit
What's the fifth?

>>22938995
>The biggest reward, I think, is access to the greatest literary tradition in the world that doesn't translate well. Good translations from Greek prose are scarce, but can be nearly as good as the original. Good translations from Chinese are near nonexistent.
What do you think are the major issues with most translations?

>>22939312
I thought it was 三國演義 that's half-vernacular and the 三國志 is classical.

>>22941391
Arabic.

>>22941404
Yes, that's what I get for skimming.

>>22941307
>French being basically as "logical" a language as can be without being artificial
hungarian is a strong counter example to this claim
hungarian is so logical it feels algorithmic

>>22937877
The original Old Testament is in Hebrew and Aramaic, but there was a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint, which is the basis for many modern English translations, especially in Eastern Orthodox traditions.

NEW
>>22941474
>>22941474
>>22941474

>>22941363
Thanks, I've read Mary Wollstonecraft. She was pretty based with her whole, 'please oppress us women only a tiny bit less.' I also read Charlotte Gilman's "Yellow Wallpaper" but it seemed more spooky story than philosophy. I've basically never heard of any of the rest of these. Who are the most important and influential?

>>22941476
>>22942930
Dangit