/lit/ - Literature

>>22919199
Seems less relevant today. Gen Z barely cares about the Holocaust and is pro Palestine. Also Finkelstein is nuts.

>>22919199
Read Beyond Chutzpah, it is extremely relevant

>>22919201
Why is Finkelstein nuts?
>Also, what are some critiques of this book that aren't just ad homming and kvetching?

>>22919199
Yeah if you want to masturbate over how jews are bad you can visit pol for free

>>22919201
>Gen Z barely cares about the Holocaust and is pro Palestine
>it could happen again within our lifetimes

>>22919463
If only

>>22919463
>>22919467
As previously stated: you can go back to pol and fantasize there

>>22919477
no thanks i'll keep hating jews right here

>>22919480
thank you anon

>>22919477
No longer an opinion found solely on pol due to the actions of Israel, sorry

>>22919561
Antisemitism, just like being illiterate, is luckily not a mainstream problem. Sadly it's substantial enough to cause harm to society's functioning but most people know better and want to distance themselves from something so disgusting.

That people disguise their antisemitism under criticism of Israel is known for decades. Denying Jews their state is antisemitic.

>>22919598
>Denying Jews their state is antisemitic.
And this is wrong because...?

>>22919199
the holocaust did happen, it was all the hellenic pagans who died since the flood

>>22919201
Kike

>>22919199
I'd say the Culture of Critique by prof. Kevin Macdonald is more relevant still in today's climate.

>>22919199
Read this instead
The Holocaust Narrative explains the Holocaust as narrative used to promote Jewish and American power and its creation was because of Allied guilt due to their actions in WW2

>>22919199
It's not really about what you think it is about. It's mainly about Swiss bank accounts. >>22919204
that one is a lot better

>>22919598
>but most people know better and want to distance themselves from something so disgusting.

You mean like Jews? If that's the case, then I agree.

>>22919598
antisemitism and antizionism are two distinct concepts, dipshit. the entire existence of israel is antisemitic -- you think the british gave that land to the jews because they LIKED them? it was their way of getting rid of them!

now zionist assholes like you wield antisemitism like a blunt object to hit people over the head with when they say something you disagree with.

>>22919209
Raul Hillberg praised it so I guess none aside from minor nitpicking.

>>22920672
From the many attacks by pro-Palestinians on Jewish businesses in the West you can clearly see that pro-Palestinians are largely antisemitic. My point is merely that your proposed existence of some Jew-friendly members of the pro-Palestine movement in no way means that its not mainly driven by antisemitism. Without antisemitism, the pro-Palestine movement wouldn’t exist.

>>22920672
Well Britain got goaded into wars for jewish money interests so it certainly seems a handful of politicians taking their cash liked them.

>>22919467
The Buddha thread archives but I've been thinking about jews and karma

Maybe their position in the world now is a result of the suffering they've endured for millenia, 110 countries and all

Sure, they've resorted to some questionable tactics (sacrificing a burnt offering of their own for pity points), but what if this current moment in time is their come-uppance?

What they are doing to palestine now, however, the Karmic implications will be medieval-esque in their future. Not to mention the whole psyop agenda, thr past century of porn, education, media; all spiritually abhorrent.

Only time will tell..

>>22919463
Even with every single media corperation, oligarch and nation forcefully supporting Isr*el, it is losing popular support. Even on popular social media sites.

>>22922283
Meds

>>22922291
Meds

>>22922250
> Without antisemitism, the pro-Palestine movement wouldn’t exist.
Are you trolling or playing devil’s advocate?

The pro-Palestine movement certainly would and does in parts exist without antisemitism (whether serious, hardcore and real antisemitism or spurious accusations of that). This claim is insanely over-the-top. You are saying no one can feel bad for the Palestinians and want to support their well-being and flourishing without being antisemitic or without antisemitism existing.

We don’t even have to get into and argue about history, currently Israel has shut off food, water, and medical supplies to the 2 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip, which counts as a war crime under international law, as well as targeting civilian neighborhoods, hospitals, and mosques/places-of-worship in the war with intense shelling. Also, Israel economically, militarily and technologically DOMINATES the Palestinians, being the way stronger group in these metrics than the Palestinians are.

You can argue that these actions of Israel are necessary because Hamas “embeds itself deeply into the Palestinian population and hides behind human shields, including using even hospitals and mosques as hubs”, but this doesn’t preclude from feeling bad for the Palestinian human shields/civilians obliterated in the crossfire.

Why do you think there’s a fair amount of people seriously devoted to this issue who resort to one of the most explosive verbal accusations and comparisons possible in modern Western rhetoric — comparing Zionists to Nazis, the actions of the Israeli government to the Third Reich? They are assuming, in this very comparison, that “Nazis” or “the Third Reich” are something especially bad. And even intelligent Jews are included among this staunchly anti-Zionist faction who make such a comparison, like Norm Finkelstein who this very thread is about.

Israel is also a religio-ethnostate in a unique way that Western norms paradoxically would not at all think is acceptable for themselves, even while their heads-of-state and various politicians support Israel. A nation forcibly made up of only all Christians and which would not allow non-Christians — verboten. A nation forcibly made up of only all Whites and which would not allow non-Whites — you know what that would be called (and what the automatic reaction of many against it would be). Now, there are both nations and paramilitary groups/terrorists trying to do this with all-Muslim/Arab states, but, in this matter, you at least can’t accuse the West of hypocrisy, as many in the West also have an instinctive, knee-jerk reaction of, “That’s wrong, too, and there’s dark human rights abuses, backwardness, primitiveness and violence in those nations and societies, too.”

>>22922250
>>22922714
(Continued)
Would you also call certain ultra-Orthodox, extremely religious Jews like those pictured above who think the modern political state of “Israel” is blasphemous and not the true religious state of Israel spoken of in their scriptures because it was not established with the ascent of their Messiah, as Jewish prophecies predicted it would be? Are these literal extremely-Jewish-Jews also “antisemitic”? Or “self-hating Jews” like you probably presume figures like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein also are (who come at this from a more leftist secular humanist perspective instead of a staunchly religious one) — all of these Jews are THEMSELVES also “antisemitic” for expressing pro-Palestine views?

>>22922714
>here's an image of Jews being against Israel therefore antisemitism isn't real
You understood very well what I said but chose to ignore it. I don't care about uncle Tom/Moshe's, I care about the truth and the truth is that anti-Zionism is simply antisemitic.

Zionism
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

The criticism on the ''anti-Israel'' movement have been so numerous that one has to be suspicious of those who speak well about it.

>>22922754
pilpul

>>22922754
>I care about the truth and the truth is that anti-Zionism is simply antisemitic.
Negative, soldier. Unless being anti-Nazi is being “anti-Germanic”; being anti-fascist is being “anti-Italian”; being anti-fundamentalist-totalitarian-Islamic-theocracy is being “anti-Muslim”, and so forth.

Can a government be evil? Can a nation have people in power of it supporting and carrying out evil actions? Can a military be evil or be performing evil actions, and hence be validly opposed, accused of crimes or challenged? They certainly can. Even if the people making up such nation, government or military are Jewish or of the Israeli state. It doesn’t mean every Israeli or Jew is evil. It does mean some are, particularly powerful ones doing genuinely evil things, in the commonly accepted definition of “evil.” If you are saying only every other race, government, nation, military, etc., can be evil and validly accused of evil, never Jews or Israel, that is itself a warped Jewish-supremacist idea immediately obvious as such to anyone relatively unbiased and free-thinking.

>>22919598
if all jews moved to israel no one would be antisemitic besides arabs and leftoids, problem solved and case closed.

>>22922789
Did Hitler kill 6 million Jews because they were Jewish or because he believed they had communist ideals?

>>22919598
Kike

>>22919199
Very relevant.

>>22919199
What’s more antisemitic: to deny the Holocaust or to be glad it happened?

>>22922789
Did you miss the part where the existence of some genuine criticism of Israel in no way means that antisemitism isn't the driving factor behind these criticisms? You can criticize Israel, even Israelis do it, but if on a planet with 8 billion inhabitants Jews doing Jewish things on Jewish land is what keeps you up at night I suggest you visit a therapist.
It appears some people no matter what evidence is provided will always keep doubting.
but eh, you do you.

>>22922800
To be nonchalant about it. Yes, it happened, but it was nothing crazy.

>>22922806
>>22922754
>>22922250
Why are Jews so fucking passive aggressive? All you do is act avoidant and try to discredit without engaging in the fucking argument. Jews rape kids btw.

>>22922792
In his own mindset I believe it was, unfortunately, for both reasons, in a tricky tangling of both of these justifications hard to pry apart. Fundamentally (and all just in my own opinion, not as someone omniscient or an extremely devoted historian), it was because they were Jewish, but he also believed there was a significant Jewish involvement in communism (hence the Nazis’ concept of “Judeo-Bolshevism”). He also believed that Jews “strongly stuck together like burrs”, invariably almost all supported each other and would root for each other and hide, protect, and defend each other, hence why such drastic measures as he took were necessary.

Isn’t this a frighteningly similar mindset and ideology to modern pro-Zionists justifying war crimes, bombardment, and inhumane treatment of the Palestinians, particularly the Gaza Palestinians? “They voted for the Hamas government” (but don’t consider the history and ongoing policies that led them to support such a revolutionary terrorist group”), “They commonly have anti-Jewish Islamic fundamentalist terrorist ideologies”, “there is hardly any difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas, they are so closely bound together”.

Yoav Gallant, Israeli Defense Minister, says that they are fighting “human animals.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-military-called-question-misbehavior-troops-rcna129227

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/israel-defence-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_uk_65245ebae4b0a32c15bfe6b6

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/9/israeli-defence-minister-orders-complete-siege-on-gaza

There are no or very few innocent civilians in Gaza, high-ranking Israeli government officials like the Israeli President Isaac Herzog or pro-Zionist American Republican politicians say:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gop-lawmaker-faces-backlash-after-claiming-there-are-very-few-innocent-palestinian-citizens/ar-AA1m74yS

https://thewire.in/article/world/northern-gaza-israel-palestine-conflict

>>22922812

>>22922827
>Yoav Gallant, Israeli Defense Minister, says that they are fighting “human animals.”
He was obviously talking about hamas. If he wanted to kill all Arabs in Gaza because they are human animals then why didn't he make such statements BEFORE 7th October?

>https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-military-called-question-misbehavior-troops-rcna129227
Single incident.

>https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/9/israeli-defence-minister-orders-complete-siege-on-gaza
Biased source + Israel has no obligation to supply their enemy.

>There are no or very few innocent civilians in Gaza, high-ranking Israeli government officials like the Israeli President Isaac Herzog or pro-Zionist American Republican politicians say:
The report says that when a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” Herzog said, “No, I didn’t say that.”

>https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gop-lawmaker-faces-backlash-after-claiming-there-are-very-few-innocent-palestinian-citizens/ar-AA1m74yS
USA is relevant how?

Why can’t Jews just join the rest of humanity? Why do they have to be evil?

>>22922835
Remind me who killed and raped civilians on october 7th?

Israeli President Suggests That Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets
“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Isaac Herzog said as Israel ordered 1.1 million Palestinians to evacuate their homes.

As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.
“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8

>>22922806
Why do you exaggerate what psychological impact this has on me? Incredibly fortunately — I am not a Palestinian or a Gazan especially. Nevertheless, I can look at it and see how objectively fucked up it is, and dislike how much my government (the US government) and other Western governments support these atrocities.

Nations like China, North Korea, Sudan, Libya, whomever you wish to name are also committing absolute atrocities. And yes, antisemitism doesn’t exist and I really don’t like rabid antisemites much (to put it mildly), even while I’m not Jewish. But there’s not exactly this same or a similar concentrated powerful lobby in much of the West accusing you of being “Sinophobic” when you talk of China’s atrocities, human rights abuses and totalitarianism (although they are already somewhat trying to do that and have been for a while, but nowhere near, I think, with as much success as Israel/Zionists have had in this respect, and with that much overt influence over politicians, presidents, Congress, media, and academia/the education system as the Zionist-Israeli lobby as had).

>>22922839
Jews are far more evil, don’t even get me started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes

>>22922833
>Single incident.
Well, in fairness, I could give dozens to hundreds of such “single incidents” if I had the time or wherewithal to. In all fairness, one could also do the same for atrocities of Palestinians or Hamas. And in the end it would probably just all be regarded as a “gish-gallop” by the opposing side. But, looking at it objectively, the average rational person still has to admit Israel’s massive economic, military, and technological dominance in this respect, as well as their dominance in number of casualties and deaths inflicted to the other side. Making it all seem at least a little unbalanced.

However, again, to concede you at least some points you seem to find crucial — yes, October 7th was horrific. I don’t support targeting, maiming, murdering, or raping average Israeli citizens of Jews. However, it does bear asking — what happened to the Israeli Defense Forces, Mossad, and Shin Bet being some of the most sophisticated, highly technologically advanced, and well-funded militaries or intelligence agencies in the world? How did this attack happen on the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel, one of the most heavily guarded, surveilled, watched and protected borders in the world?

Just another “mistake” like 9/11? At this point, you will probably disregard me, but just to “speak from my heart”, I’d have to ask you to seriously consider the possibility that even high-ranking levels of the Israel government/military/intelligence-agencies, the top-level Zionists — perhaps they are so sinister and malicious they’d even agree to throw “lesser Jews” under the bus for this attack to subsequently justify the massacre and mass displacement/relocation of Gazans for Israeli settler expansionist ends. A sort of redo of the American Manifest Destiny ideal, except it is Israelis/Jews who are the new God-chosen settlers and Palestinians as the Native-American-like-detritus to be subjugated and removed for these ends.

Ultimately, I can’t change anyone’s views, only God, Fate, Nature, or whatever all-encompassing-power you attribute this all to can. And I am also too drunk and sleepy to want to bother with such an argument any longer. Yes, very crude and vicious antisemitism exists. Some of the Palestinians are very deeply wrong. So are some of the Jews. So are some of the posters in this very thread. But I can’t do anything about it. Good night jewanon, I have no ill-will against you and Jews as a whole and rather enjoyed the conversation for hearing a very different view than that I usually like to consider.

I deleted and reformatted this post for a typo

Israeli President Suggests That Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets
“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Isaac Herzog said as Israel ordered 1.1 million Palestinians to evacuate their homes.

As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.
“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8

>>22922806
Why do you exaggerate what psychological impact this has on me? Incredibly fortunately — I am not a Palestinian or a Gazan especially. Nevertheless, I can look at it and see how objectively fucked up it is, and dislike how much my government (the US government) and other Western governments support these atrocities.

Nations like China, North Korea, Sudan, Libya, whomever you wish to name are also committing absolute atrocities. And yes, antisemitism DOES exist and I really don’t like rabid antisemites much (to put it mildly), even while I’m not Jewish. But there’s not exactly this same or a similar concentrated powerful lobby in much of the West accusing you of being “Sinophobic” when you talk of China’s atrocities, human rights abuses and totalitarianism (although they (the Chinese/pro-China) are already somewhat trying to do that and have been for a while, but nowhere near, I think, with as much success as Israel/Zionists have had in this respect, and with that much overt influence over politicians, presidents, Congress, media, and academia/the education system as the Zionist-Israeli lobby as had).

>>22922843
Your misinformation crusade of a post left this part out: The report says that when a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” Herzog said, “No, I didn’t say that.”

>Why do you exaggerate what psychological impact this has on me? Incredibly fortunately — I am not a Palestinian or a Gazan especially. Nevertheless, I can look at it and see how objectively fucked up it is, and dislike how much my government (the US government) and other Western governments support these atrocities.
You feel targeted by what I said about people who get worked up about Israel's existence yet you claim you're not one of those, I find that interesting...

>>22922884
Oh don't worry, I got you right here >>22922886

Here's at least three instances talking about how US officials receive Chinese money.
https://oversight.house.gov/release/bank-investigator-raised-concerns-about-money-from-china-that-ultimately-funded-40000-payment-to-joe-biden%EF%BF%BC/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/08/china-and-taiwan-offered-us-huge-bribes-say-solomon-islands-mps

https://www.newsweek.com/china-influencing-us-political-elites-power-book-1678294

China is a nation of 1.4 billion and a GDP of about 18 trillion USD, but ya, let's focus on the Jewish nation of 10 million (of which 3 million non-Jews enjoying equal rights btw).

>>22922886
I can’t criticize evil Jews? Americans are also evil. Africans and Blacks can be evil. Muslims or Arabs can also be evil. Christians can be evil? Jews can’t be evil?

(Note, I am using these word-choices/phrases in a causal sense, with the word “SOME” implicitly behind them; I don’t think anything like:

ALL Americans are evil
ALL Muslims are evil
ALL Jews are evil
ALL Christians are evil
ALL Chinese are evil
Etc.

I do think at least some of each are, and in some cases it is significant and important to point it out for the exact extent of the evil some of them are supporting. It is also sometimes made hard to discuss the extent of this evil due to the hampering effects of “political correctness”, hence why I temporarily disregard it while posting anonymously.)

>>22919201
Norman Finkelstein is NOT nuts, he is a man of immense character and conviction, not to say brilliance and scholarship, in an era of corporate frauds and fake experts. Shame on you.

I can think of no single THINKER alive in America with more independence of mind. He knows his principles, he knews his facts, and he will bulldoze right over you if you dissent from either. That is what courage of the mind looks like.

>>22922893
What evil or at least corrupt Chinese must be behind this!

OK, if Jews, Israeli officials or Zionists are doing similar things, can we also call them evil? Or is every Jew immune from criticism?

Are the Israeli government, military forces and intelligence agencies BLAMELESS? I can belt out all my criticisms of the CIA and note historical atrocities they were involved in, but I won’t have a uniquely damaging label applied to me for doing so (like “antisemitic”). At worst, I’ll be called “a conspiracy theorist.” That’s the special little thing going on here. And, to get back to the topic of this thread, what Finkelstein (himself a Jew, if that wasn’t obvious) is talking about. About how certain Jews use the history of Jewish suffering, most gargantuanly and monstrously displayed in the Holocaust, to shield themselves from moral criticism and even for political and financial gain. He’s clearly not saying this is true about all Jews, because he himself — Norman Finkelstein, if you’ve ever heard a more Jewish name (!) — is Jewish.

The fucking CIA did unethical illegal mind-control experiments on the U.S. and Canadian populations without prior consent, and the 9/11 narrative had so many holes in it that it’s clear to the unprejudiced open-minded thinker it was either a false-flag or allowed to happen — I can say this without the “anti-antisemitism” mafia pouncing on me, but if we suggest Israel, Israelis, Jews or Zionists have done anything so evil, a unique rebuttal is invariably made: “You are antisemitic.” Even when looking at clear cases, historically and presently, of, say, where Israel has done some not-nice-things to Palestinians (to put it very softly).

>>22919199
>How relevant is this book in 2024?

Seeing thread turned into Palestine/Israel thing quickly it's obviously less relevant. "Holocaust Industry" was about groups and lawyers going after Swiss banks and stuff in the 90s for monetary compensation but holocaust survivors not actually seeing the money. There's still people raising money for causes and enriching themselves off it but it's not particularly about Zionism per se

itt: reason number 4566641 why Jews need a state

As true then as it is now.

>>22923877
? in which post did you see such a thing

>>22922829
Interesting. Where is this from?

>>22924426
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/angrif03.htm

>>22923973
In every discussion that remotely touches on jews, Isr*el, economic issues, zionism, pornography, mass media, journalism, expulsion and more.

>>22924434
Thanks.

>>22919199
Yes, totally relevant. The holocaust is an industry and jews haven’t suffered since. 1948 didn’t happen, neither did the 1967 war, neither did 7 october. It’s just an industry alright?

>>22925800
Exactly. Notorious Holocaust denier David Irving also spread this myth. The book is a fraud.

>>22919598
They’re religiously evil, not ethnically

>>22925841
OH, how evil to not use the elevator on Shabbes. That is just pure crime against humanity.

>>22919201
Having autism doesn't mean you're nuts just odd

>>22919199
I prefer Waters Flowing Eastward

The book treats The Holobunga as something real, so not very relevant on that part.