/lit/ - Literature

avoid feeding the trolls

Should I start with LLPSI or Wheel-locks?

>>22897182
Where are being published new works on latin (neolatin)? There must be a some people writting stuff I think.

Tityre tu patulae recubans sub tegmine fagi
silvestrem tenui musam meditaris avena
nos patriae finis et dulcia linquimus arva
nos patriam fugimus tu Tityre lentus in umbra
formosam resonare doces Amaryllida silvas
O Meliboee deus nobis haec otia fecit
namque erit ille mihi semper deus illius aram
saepe tener nobis ab ovilibus imbuet agnus
ille meas errare boves ut cernis et ipsum
ludere quae vellem calamo permisit agresi
non equidem invideo miror magis undique totis
usque adeo turbatur agris en ipse capellas
protinus aeger ago hanc etiam vix Tityre duco
hic inter densas corylos modo namque gemellos
spem gregis a silice in nuda conixa reliquit

>>22897303
Virgil is an esoteric author. If you don't find the geometric beauty of "sub tegmine fagi" arresting, you are a bot.

Salvete, barbari!

>>22897359

>>22897173
Obvious bait, but Persians are white.

Redpill me on Ge'ez.

>>22897426
Maybe some of them but no doubt even by the 4th century bc a large chunk of them had intermixed with Mesopotamian brownoids.

>>22897318
>esoteric
any works (directly related to Virgil or otherwise) that would help reveal that to someone? I can appreciate certain poetic/rhetorical devices he employs, but beyond that I am simply trying to understand the Latin and the plots of his Eclogues on a basic level at the moment.

>>22897441
Didn't you ask this same question a couple threads ago?

>>22897426
>>22897539
None of them, both royals and commoners, were "white". There can be successful non-white races.

>>22897173
>Greeks and Persians
Both swarthy indoeuropean people

>>22897228
llpsi + google if you don't understand something.

>>22897228
if you are high iq, the former; if average/low, the latter.

>>22897589
Non-shizo intro to esoteric writing via Leo Strauss. For Virgil specifically, the trio of Donatus, Juan Luis Vives and Van Sickle suffice.

>>22897228
>LLPSI or Wheel-locks
Actually it's spelled LISPI (wheel-locks it's correct)

>>22898077
I thought Latin word order was movable chud

>>22898038
Strauss' esotericism means "everyone is an atheist who thinks revelation is bad, therefore they construct texts to have a little bit of revelation is good at the beginning and end but they also cough cough nudge nudge hint at atheism in the middle, like an atheism sandwich."

That has very little to do with the kind of esoteric reading people apply to Dante's Vita Nuova or the Jabirian corpus.

Should I pronounce C before E, I, and AE as /ts/ or as /k/ and TI as /tsi/ or as /ti/?

>>22898163
Literally no one cares. Choose a pattern, anyone, and stick to it.

>>22898202
>Choose a pattern
Based on what? These are equally legit and not so major and that's why it's hard for me to choose.

stop feeding the troll, report and move on

>>22898143
no, at a fundamental level it's "authors wrote in between the lines for the discerning ones" which is attested in textual sources from antiquity. idk where you got that extra bit from.

>>22898227
Stop seething retard and discuss the topic.

>>22898258
From the fact that he interprets the entire history of philosophy as nihilist atheists doing naruto hand signals to each other across time, because all honest philosophers necessarily realize that certain knowledge is impossible and the highest philosophical state one can attain to is permanent zetetic inquiry. Being a nihilist atheist himself, Strauss presumes a false dichotomy between "revealed" truths and truths arrived at by reasoning (dianoia). He believes that all honest philosophers reach this limit, and then there is nothing left to do but maintain the zetetic process among whatever privileged can understand it, because lesser minds will desire absolute truth so much that they'll plunge into revealed truth (which is absolute and dogmatic, thus inevitably totalitarian).

Thus Plato was an atheist, all that metaphysics stuff was just a smokescreen for the real zetetic core. Maimonides was not a serious student of Islamic philosophy either. Just a smokescreen. Al-Farabi, about whom we know every little and who is unfortunately mostly written about by Straussians, is a secret atheist too. And so on.

That's Strauss himself, and while there is room for more subtlety in his writings (if you read it into the gaps where he did not insert it, but at least left the gaps), his disciples are definitely atheist nihilists:
>But that's not the reason I never became a Straussian. It was because my father explained to me, as well as to Bloom, of course, that Bloom did not understand Plato. This may seem a bit outrageous to many people today, given Bloom's reputation. But I still think my father was right, and at the time I had no doubt that he was right. My father was and is a great arguer, and as a boy I was inclined to believe that he was right about practically everything. So to me, the Kagan-Bloom debates always looked like a complete wipe-out.

>As best I can recall, their biggest point of contention was whether Plato was just kidding in The Republic. Bloom said he was just kidding. I later learned that this idea--that the greatest thinkers in history never mean what they say and are always kidding--is a core principle of Straussianism. My friend, the late Al Bernstein, also taught history at Cornell. He used to tell the story about how one day some students of his, coming directly from one of Bloom's classes, reported that Bloom insisted Plato did not mean what he said in The Republic. To which Bernstein replied: "Ah, Professor Bloom wants you to think that's what he believes. What he really believes is that Plato did mean what he said."

>Anyway, my father said Plato was not kidding. The argument would go back and forth for hours, and in my memory it always ended with Bloom saying, "We'll have to look at the text," which was a great way of ending the discussion because there was no ancient Greek text of The Republic available in the Statler's lunch room. So, as I saw it, and as my father saw it, that was sort of a surrender.

>>22898277
pronuntiatio restituta, all the way down the rabbit hole: pitch accent, geminated j, qu as qw (can't use proper IPA here), 'vu' properly read as 'uo' (like in 'vult' etc), sonus medius, nasalization, slightly centralization of unstressed short vowels, proper mora timed rhythm, etc. also post vocaroo, faggot

What's a more worthwhile culture to explore in terms of languages, Far Eastern (Chinese, Japanese) or Near Eastern (Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, Turkish)?

>>22898329
>pronuntiatio restituta
Why? I know the rules of both, the problem is that I can't choose in the first place.

>>22898329
>can't use proper IPA here
what's stopping you?

>>22898362
>>22898329
kʷ

>>22898329
>sonus medius, nasalization, slightly centralization of unstressed short vowels
All are meme and made up though.

>>22898358
because that's how latin was spoken by the authors you're going to read. why use an anachronistic conventional pronunciation when the proper one can be reconstructed? why reading original texts with proper vocabulary and grammar but not pronunciation? just read a translation at that point
>muh medieval and renaissance authors
the simply had the bad luck to be born before the development of modern linguistics, they would have used the pronuntiatio restituta if they could
>I know the rules of both,
you don't, or you wouldn't be asking retarded questions
post vocaroo

>>22898362
>>22898373
huh, I remember trying to post some symbols and not showing up

>>22898389
probably on a device with shit unicode support, and you never installed new fonts
or you picked some symbols that get escaped on 4chan
like the near close front unrounded vowel gets escaped to an uppercase J

>>22898378
How's that relevant when Latin itself is entirely a made up meme? It never existed, it's a conspiracy made up by the Jesuits and the Shitalians. Those are all elements of this conlang, how can you decide which ones are to be learnt an which ones aren't?

>>22898408
>It never existed, it's a conspiracy made up by the Jesuits and the Shitalians. Those are all elements of this conlang
I will admit, Latin does look very conlangy. Personally I think it is actually ancient and the ancients made it up as a conlang.

>>22898386
>post vocaroo
Here: https://voca.ro/13QCB7fpsgCC
Remember that >>22898378
>why use an anachronistic conventional pronunciation
Because it's conventional?

>>22898378
The nasalization sounds so fucking stupid

>>22898439
Among the listed ones, nasalization is the most legit one though, the other two are undoubtedly wrong.

>>22898425
>it's conventional
I mean, it's still conventional. In medicine and law this pronunciation is the one that's taught.

>>22898425
>ask which pronunciation should use
>will use whatever frankestein system he comes up with
>>22898441
those are all mentioned by ancient authors

>>22898446
Cope, it`s not even a point for discussion. The different qualities are completely debunked.

>>22898451
Assuming you're able to read Latin
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7528/7528-h/7528-h.htm#vowels

>>22898455
Not an ancient source but German whining, sorry.

Latin not having nasalized vowels is the most retarded take I've seen all year

>>22898463
I assumed wrongly

>>22898464
>>22898474
>reeeeee
Nobody listens to your German nonsense anymore, sorry. No nasalization, no reduction, always the same quality.

>>22898484
Holy projection

>>22898464
Fuck off, balding retard. I will not pronounce the stupid nasal vowels you prescribe.

>>22898502
see >>22898499
I'm new to /clg/, and this shit is funny

>>22898484
>German nonsense anymore
check L'alfabeto e la pronuncia del Latino by Traina, or Propedeutica al latino universitario by the same autor, then; they're available on Anna's archive.
If you're referring to the paper by Messina, he recognizes the possibility of allophones for those vowels, too.
That's different from the position of Allen that recognizes 10 phonemic qualities.
Slightly centralization of short vowels happens even in fucking Japanese, another mora timed language, with only 5 phonemic qualities for vowels, which can be short or long, too.

So why not the traditional pronunciation in the first place, remind me?

>>22898518
mostly because you have to know latin first I guess

>>22898524
sorry i meant german, to read all the nonsense i post

>>22898524
Phonology comes before anything else in language learning, are you retarded? How the fuck will you understand text if you don't know what the words in it sound?

>>22898537
>How the fuck will you understand text if you don't know what the words in it sound?
is this satire?

>>22898537
>open book
>letters go brrrrr
>check dictionary
>meaning goes brrrrrrr
unless you want to listen to gaytoobers, ofc

>>22898541
I'm afraid it's not.

>>22898546
Well, I guess most people are some kind of superhumans then, myself included, when reading languages whose phonology I'm not yet acquainted with.

So from what I understood from this thread, the reconstruction is gay. Am I right?

>>22898553
>he brags he doesn't know the language

>>22898554
reconstruction of what, your neovagina?

>>22898555
>missing the point
I don't know Dutch, for example, and I've only got a vague idea of its phonology. When I read Dutch, I understand plenty of it without actually knowing how to pronounce any of it, apart from the vague idea I have. The notion that I must know exactly how any given word is realized in order to understand a written representation of it is absolutely pants on head retarded.

>>22898558
>reconstruction hippie troon projects
lmao

>>22898554
Yeah, it's always trannies and redditors harping on about muh based reconstructed pronunciation, whereas Catholichads use the Italian pronunciation.

>>22898565
Can you read Greek not knowing how the letters are pronounced?

>>22898580
>Italian
It's French (even Frankish). Though.

>>22898582
What in tardation? Begone, you filthy troon. You clearly know nothing about latin

the ability of latin trash to turn this thread into garbage is unmatched, we had such a good row of nice threads, and they can't refrain from replying to the local troll

>>22898584
Huh? It was codified by an Anglo in Frankish court.

>>22898587
most of that posts are made by the same person samefagging and answering himself

Europe should be federalized and Latin should be the common tongue.

>>22898615
With what pronunciation?

>>22898622
I prefer the Candes scheme myself. I know that I'm not alone in that respect, thought it is a minority view.

>>22898581
>how the letters are pronounced
Graphemes aren't pronounced; speech does not follow writing.
But anyhow, no, I do not know Greek, and I do not speak any language language that resembles it, but anecdotally I know the Greek alphabet; I managed to observe and learn on the fly while on a trip to Crete, so I could tell the rest of the people whenever we had reached a certain stop by looking at the signs.

I fail to see how any of this is relevant, thougheverbeit.

>>22898631
Tell me more, Google finds nothing.

>>22898643
CAN DES DICK FIT IN YO MOUF NIGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>22898648
that'd be funny if you read 'des' with /i/

>>22898581
yes, i can read ancient greek fine without knowing how its pronounced because nobody alive speaks it outloud unironically anymore so learning how to speak or listen to it is a complete waste of time.

>>22898759
There was no standard anyways. Stresses are a complete meme. Anyone coming to their first confused mixture of a rising AND flat stress will realize calling it a "pitch accent" is a complete cope for the fact that the stress reconstructions are blindly done based on poorly assume rules. 20th century philologists were so autistic they even had names for every stress marker and when a two marks were made simultaneously they had no name for that hypocrisy. I'm glad those fools are dead so decent people may enjoy Greek as the good Greeks intended: by doing whatever sounds good.

>>22898745
is the implication that bald man is a phonology fag? his pronunciation is retarded
he's to Latin what Crawford is to Old Norse
ie absolutely retarded

>>22898792
the meme is more so about the faggot(s) in this thread, but it does help that Luke is also a phonology fag. in general he just seems like he loves to sniff his own farts.

>>22898806
>Luke is also a phonology fag.
lmao
>martiaaaaaaaaaaaaanus
nigga, no one spoke Latin this way

>>22898780
>rising AND flat stress
there are living languages were syllables or morae can have low or high pitches (pitch accent, not stress) and it's pretty obvious were the pitch raises and falls inside a word

>>22898792
Crawford is based. I respect him and his hustle.

>>22897778
In the absence of a clear definition of 'white' it's a pointless argument.

>>22898378
On what basis do you assert this?

>>22898416
Nah, it makes sense when you look at it in the context of other Indo-European languages.

>>22899062
No evidence from Romance languages supports it.

>>22898451
This literally has a bunch of quotations from ancient sources though? Also when do you think the different qualities descended from historical long and short E happened in e.g. Italian?

>>22898502
>I know better than the entire field of historical linguistics because I think the way they reconstruct Latin sounds dumb

>>22898580
No vowel length makes poetic meter meaningless, though.

>>22898595
It's descended from that, but we're talking specifically about the Italian variant of that system, which while basically similar to other variants has some differences in the particular phonetic realization.

>>22899049
>Crawford is based
lmao
his videos are just things you will find any textbook and his pronunciation is absolutely garbage, and it seems to get worse with time
he's not >the worst< English language resource, but he's certainly not good either

>>22898622
Why not just let everyone use their own traditional pronunciation and/or classical pronunciation according to their preference? As far as I can tell, once you know the language, adjusting to a different pronunciation scheme is no harder than adjusting to a different accent in any other language.

>>22898759
>because nobody alive speaks it outloud unironically anymore
What about all the Koine Greek liturgy and songs used in the Greek Orthodox Church?

>>22899073
Does evidence from misspellings and from descriptions from Roman grammarians not count?

>>22899073
there is no evidence from romance languages of the synthetic passive voice of latin either

It seem to be settled anons, all people with actual education like myself use the traditional pronunciation, >>22898698
So I finally can go and read.
>>22899097
Yes, but in most countries the proper Alcuin's system is used, and there's evidence it was used in Italy as well prior to the early 20th century when the pope chimped out.
>>22899100
>once you know the language, adjusting to a different pronunciation scheme is no harder than
It's because Alcuin stated a strict prescribed form and everybody was using it until recently. For an example of what happens when you have no such strict standard everybody speaks as he was taught, see actual Romance languages.
>>22899108
>>22899076
For qualities, see the bald nigger. For nasalization, see Ecclesiastic pronunciation.
>>22899117
If it's neither in Medieval Latin nor in Romance languages, it didn't exist.
>>22899093
Then there was no meter, are you retarded?

>>22899105
>i said unironically

>>22899133
>Yes, but in most countries the proper Alcuin's system is used
What constitutes the proper Alcuin's system, exactly? Which row in this table, if any?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation
>For an example of what happens when you have no such strict standard everybody speaks as he was taught, see actual Romance languages.
Well yeah actual living language will continue evolving regardless of what you prescribe.
>Then there was no meter, are you retarded?
Are you saying that the Romans never pronounced vowel lengths? Then why do a bunch of Roman inscriptions have apices? And why do a bunch of Romance outcomes depend on historical vowel length?

>>22899155
why are you seriously answering to that retard?

Phonology is literally the most boring part of latin. It's for 90 iq incels. Just shut up already, apes.

>>22899155
>row in this table
Slavic and German, both are identical though.
>have apices
Might be literally everything, stress even.
>depend on historical vowel length
Where?
The point is, Medieval people weren't retarded. If they were missing something so important as vowel length, they would fix it immediately like they did with the endings.
>>22899160
>>22899173
Seethe tranny.

>>22899175
Your losing the argument. Give up already, bald nigger

>>22899160
Even if he won't listen, hopefully other people can learn something from the discussion. That's the purpose of debate anyway- not to convince each other but to convince the audience.
>>22899175
>Slavic and German, both are identical though.
Not perfectly; if you look at the table Germanic (optionally) has different outcomes for long and short E (like Italian) whereas Slavic doesn't, optionally different realization of <oe>, non-syllabic realization of <tiV>, and different values of <z>.
>Might be literally everything, stress even.
Doesn't correspond to Romance stress, and multiple in one word wouldn't make sense then.
>Where?
Italian has different outcomes of historical long and short E (/ɛ/ vs. /e/) and similarly with O (/ɔ/ vs /o/), and most of Romance except Sardinian merges short, but not long, I and U with short E and O.

>>22899201
>like Italian
Italian Latin has not, even just the other page on Wiki states so, and I doubt German Latin has it either. Z in German Latin is how they read it in German German, not corresponds to anything.
>different outcomes
Ah, that babble. Read Calabrese or whatever. It's not a point for discussion even for Reddit shills, just retarded Germans borrowed their vowel system into their "reconstruction".

>>22899242
>Italian Latin has not, even just the other page on Wiki states so
I'm talking about native words.
>Ah, that babble.
How is that babble? There are literally living Romance languages that have different phonemes depending on historical Latin vowel length.

>>22899256
Again, see Calabrese, that bald nigger, whatever. These all believe in your "Medieval vowel length conspiracy" but they at least are smart enough to find out there was only one quality for each vowel.

>>22899272
So why did short I and U merge with short E and O in most of Romance?

Post recordings of what you think are proper or at least decent pronunciations of Latin or Greek (or other classical languages).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OyhWKTmJBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khiootdwfok

>>22899277
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu-slOBurvM
See two hours of this nigger if you're so stubborn.

>>22899295
Luke: you are a homosexual and I hope you die a slow, painful death.

>>22899303
I don't care about your Reddit drama, no long vowel existed in the first place.

>>22899307
just to be clear I'm not the phonofag, I just don't like Luke

So at the end German-Slavic Third Rome TSEZARS and their pure Latin won over trannies with their "restored" (made up) mumbling. Based.

>>22899307
So what's Roman poetic meter based on? It's not stress.

>>22899328
>TSEZARS
We literally have writings from Romans explicitly saying that C is pronounced the same before every vowel.

>>22899379
Sad for them, we TSEZARS with actual education say otherwise.
>>22899340
Kek just tried to read Virgil and there's nothing wrong with the meter without le hecckin length (see it first time btw). Tranny schizos seem to be btfo again kek.
https://voca.ro/14ukDD0jjFDJ

>>22899449
>https://voca.ro/14ukDD0jjFDJ

>>22899467
>is a nigger
Everything's clear now.

>>22899295
I wouldn't consider that person a source. I jumped right to the "01:56:46 Devil's advocate: could Allen still be right that vowel quantity languages centralize short vowels?" part (I'm not looking the whole thing) and he uses Japanese as an example. He says that Japanese doesn't centralize short vowels and shows an IPA chart from wikipedia as evidence.
On the other hand you can find literature that defend exactly the opposite (The sounds of Japanese, p. 69; Vance, 2008): there is no vowel reduction in Japanese, but centralization does indeed occur.
>Japanese vowels in connected speech tend to become centralized, which makes them less distinct from each other.
That would mean that one of his arguments not only does not prove his point (the only one I've watched, I wonder how the rest are), but does prove him completely wrong in fact.
Our bald man also seems to ignore the difference between distinctive phonemes and allophones.

>>22899547

>>22899547
>>22899553
You're too late bro, the (((vowel length))) itself already was utterly debunked by this patrician above reciting Virgil with perfect rhyme, sorry.
TSEZARS won once again.

Since we're talking about nips, does someone here read Classical Japanese? How difficult is to learn if one already knows modern Japanese?

>>22898202
I stand corrected. It looks like dumbasses in this thread make a big deal of pronunciation.

Cultores vocis veracis, carpite verba
__tradita, cum prisco quae tonitru resonant

>>22898340
Among your selections I would say that Chinese, Japanese, Arabic and Persian are the best in terms of culture. If I had to rank them in value it would be something like Chinese=Japanese>Arabic=>Persian. Keep in mind that if you learn Traditional Chinese or Japanese, that you'll have an easier time diving into Chinese classics, which were not written in the wacky simple kanji that the CCP has now, but in traditional characters, which is what Japan and Taiwan use. Also for the love of god check and recheck whether you're learning the language of a culture that you'll actually like learning about. You don't want to be 10 years into your research of ancient kanji or into shitty 5000 year old scripts just to realize that you actually hate all this boring shit.
>>22899609
I'm not really anywhere near an authority on this topic, but I'll try to answer your question. I spent a while reading the Manyoushuu, through a site that shows you the original text, the reading below it, then a translation into modern Japanese. I jumped right into it without any form of education, and after a while I started being able to read the original text by itself. Not all the time, but in general I can read around 30-50% by myself before having to consult the reading, and sometimes I manage to fully read and comprehend the original text by itself. I managed to get to this(low but "okay" I suppose) level of comprehension just by cross-referencing the original text and reading provided many times, so I think with a decent amount of time and effort anybody can learn without much issue. Especially if they don't wing it like me but rely on some source that actually tries to teach them. I have also managed to read some of the shorter stuff that a guy I know throwed at me, some stuff from the late Qing compilation of historical poetry. And notice some dropped details in the translation of the Manyoushuu poems that I read. I don't think it'll be too hard for somebody who already knows modern Japanese to get the prequisite knowledge required to enjoy Japanese writing, whether it's from 500 years ago or 1500.

>>22900029
omnia quae ad linguam colendam pertinent vocis sunt. sonus significationem fert, verba declinat, sententias ducit. sed maximum ejus momentum spiritum agere est, non tantum quia 'spiratum', sed quod ab eo anima nostra vehitur

>>22899609
>How difficult is to learn if one already knows modern Japanese?
Considering Japanese themselves struggle with it and it is often considered one of the most difficult subjects in school I'd say pretty difficult.

>>22900193
Thanks for sharing your experience with Japanese, very interesting

>>22900236
>omnia quae ad linguam colendam pertinent vocis sunt
Minime, cum intellectus possit esse sine voce, et ratio sine sono. Lingua enim sensum portat, quod per logicam demonstrat. Sonus aures, sensus autem mentem tangit. Explempli gratia me intellegere potes, equidem autem nullum feci sonum.

>>22900267
Sonus autem semper mente resonat dum legimus, memoria mea pro te sonos posuit. Si tantum logica interest, plane translationem legamus. Ac quare legere linguam praeteritam studemus? Quid inter hae signa, quod aliunde fortasse deesse putamus, quaerimus?

>>22900322
>hae
haec

I'm just curious. Do i need to know Mandarin if i'm up to learning classical chinese? What are the resourses for it? Were really every chinese text from 5BCE to 20CE written in so called Classical Chinese?

>>22900322
et
>aliunde
alibi

>>22900322
>Sonus autem semper mente resonat dum legimus, memoria mea pro te sonos posuit
Ex hoc non sequitur magni momenti esse utrum pronuntiatu restituta aut ecclesiastica aut alia utemur.

Quare peccata, antequam nuntium mittam, numquam video

>>22900365
Sine cura sis, non plus quam duo tresve hic sunt qui latine legere possint.

ἦρχά νυ τὴν Ὀδύσσειαν ἀναγνῶναι

>>22900362
verumtamen aliqua uti necesse est, maximi momenti quamcumque adhibere puto, non nimius quae sit curo. fere impossibile intellegere litteras sine ullo vocis sonu, quasi imagines essent, censeo. ideo nonne melius pulchre pronuntiare?
>>22900369
plorans risi. ignosce pauperitatem latinitatis nostrae

>>22900455
>ideo nonne melius pulchre pronuntiare?
maxime si propter pulchritudinem scriptorum legimus

>>22900388
*ἦρξα

>>22898163
this is the only valid pronunciation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmwZO4xKeus

>>22900642
kyno, inironice

>>22900642
kino

>>22900193
>Chinese, Japanese, Arabic and Persian are the best in terms of culture
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too

>>22901523
https://vocaroo.com/17RyfjroLeti

>>22901720
Genuflecto

>>22900642
>>22901720
I have never heard anything in Latin with so much SOVL. Why do some accents sound so kino while others are unbearable?

>>22900455
pulchriusne restituto quam usitato more pronuntiare putas?

>>22900340
>I'm just curious. Do i need to know Mandarin if i'm up to learning classical chinese?
No, just like you don't need to know French to learn Latin.
>What are the resourses for it?
There's an infographic someone here made.
>Were really every chinese text from 5BCE to 20CE written in so called Classical Chinese?
There was variation by time and place, and by the Yuan some popular writing was in vernacular, and classical was often influenced by the vernacular to varying degrees, but in general yes, for formal and official writing at least.

I found the Latin channel of a cute Polish catholic woman. No, I won't tell you the name. /lit/ has ruined far too many small, female youtubers.

>>22900388
did you read illiad first?

latin sounds too much like spanish and thus too much like a thirdie language

>>22897228
Wheellocks if you want to "learn" Latin.
lipsi if you want to acquire Latin.

>>22901893
utiliorem ad auctores classicos legendos puto. nam ii sonis istis, carmina orationesque castigantes, opera sua composuerunt. facilius revocare hoc modo versos prosamve eorum fit, ne pereant aliter sive metrica sive alia sicut allitterationes.
vero quaero quare sonis ab antiquiis alienis uti pulchritudinem augeret?

>>22901902
Thanks

>There's an infographic someone here made.
Do you mind sharing?

>its another episode of a greek compound word making sense in english but having a completely tangential meaning in greek that you will forget everytime you see it mistaking it for the obvious translation

>22902788
Las armas y el varón canto, de Troya quien primero desde las orillas

>>22902788
Qua de causa crassiamericani (u.s. americans) hoc modo sunt?

>>22903827
i dont speak proto-thirdie, only civilized languages like Greek

>>22903839
>anglice dixit

>>22903839
Basados

>>22902778
yes phile, many times

>>22903350
nta, check the FAQ
https://i.imgur.com/KepkfBW.jpg
(sometimes for some reason the link doesn't load on first access, reload it and it should work, does for me)

>>22900388
>flexing his nu ephelkustikon

>>22903938
Thank you

>>22903827
τί μωραμερικανοί (wetbacks) ὁποῖοι εἰσιν;

Any macaco anons who would be willing to read Latin with their native accents?

I read Latin with Romanian pronunciation and Greek with modern Greek pronunciation, sorry chuds.

>>22904376
*ὁποῖοί εἰσιν

>>22904413
ΧΑΡΙΝ ΟΙΔΑ ΣΟΙ

>Reading Anavasis Alexandrou
>Alexander (1) plots against Alexander (the Great) so Alexander the Great sends Amphoteros son of Alexander to tell Parmenion that they can arrest Alexander (1)
ffs this confused me so much since I thought he was the son of Alexander (1) but it's actually a third Alexander which I could only find on German Wikipedia.

>>22898580
>>22899133
>>22899175
>>22899242
>>22899272
>>22899295
>>22899307
>>22899328
>>22899449
>>22899606
Even if we had no attested written Latin, we would still know from the Romance languages that their common ancestor must have had at least nine vowel qualities, because whereas most of Romance inherits a seven-vowel system with short I and U merged to E and O (and long and short A merged outright), Sardinian just collapses vowel length outright. So you have at least nine Proto-Romance vowel phonemes:
That which produces /a/ in Italian and Sardinian
That which produces /ɛ/ in Italian and Sardinian
That which produces /e/ in Italian and /ɛ/ in Sardinian
That which produces /i/ in Italian and Sardinian
That which produces /e/ in Italian and /i/ in Sardinian
That which produces /ɔ/ in Italian and Sardinian
That which produces /o/ in Italian and /ɔ/ in Sardinian
That which produces /u/ in Italian and Sardinian
That which produces /o/ in Italian and /u/ in Sardinian
You can postulate that these were distinguished by length or by quality, but the common ancestor of the Romance languages MUST have had at least nine vowel phonemes.

>>22905172
>at least nine vowel qualities
I mean at least nine vowel phonemes. D'oh. Like I said, this data on its own doesn't say whether they were distinguished by length or quality, just that they existed (though their effect on stress is suggestive).

>>22905185
>at least nine vowel qualities
>I mean at least nine vowel phonemes.
>this data on its own doesn't say whether they were distinguished by length or quality
This point is important. Thank you, Anon, fine post.

>>22897182
Can someone translate the lines of dialogue in this video? It is bastardized Ancient Greek likely taken from the Odyssey mixed with Sanskrit.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VNlVhQYsmw4&pp=ygUPSWwgcml0b3JubyAxOTg5

>>22905218
I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what that other anon does believe about Latin vowel phonology.

>>22905143
son of X is just a last name and usually isn't meant to refer to any active player

>>22905490
I know but I thought he might be the son of that Alexander since it specifically said paida Alexandrou instead of just Alexandrou

>>22897182
>"Let's learn some classic languages everybody"

irrumabo te!

Is it gud?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMt5fav85WY

>>22906692
Forgot to add an altenative link in case you don't want to watch it on cucktube
https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=oMt5fav85WY

i dont care how latin sounds i just want to read it and i dont need to know how it sounded to understand what somebody wrote in Latin

i do care how latin sounds i want to read it and it would be nice to know how it sounded to somebody who wrote in Latin

i do not care how latin sounds nor do i want to read it

Some interesting linguistic concepts here that /clg/ might find neat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstand_and_ausbau_languages

I like "roofing" as a concept, I came upon this while looking into Sprachbunds and the process of calquing the "logic" of a phrase from one language into another while not actually bringing over any loanwords - I am interested in how many European languages express common concepts like "Thus" by use of phrases like "In this way"

I do care how Latin sounds but I don't want to read it

>>22907071
>I like "roofing" as a concept, I came upon this while looking into Sprachbunds and the process of calquing the "logic" of a phrase from one language into another while not actually bringing over any loanwords - I am interested in how many European languages express common concepts like "Thus" by use of phrases like "In this way"
Something that has always intrigued me is how Western European languages share the same way of expressing the perfect aspect with a periphrasis using the verb 'to have'. It happens in romance languages, English and German (German and some other romances languages go further and use their equivalent to the verb 'to be' for inaccusative verbs in a similar fashion, too). Do other Germanic languages work the same way?
At least for romance languages it's an innovation since something like this didn't exist in Latin. I wonder if it developed fully independently from Germanic languages or if some degree of influence existed; or maybe it is just a common occurrence in languages across the world?
Articles are similar: Greek developed the definite, Latin didn't have them but romance languages do, German and English have them, and I do believe that the use of articles like we do is not common at all in the rest of the world.
Maybe under certain circumstances languages with similar characteristics tend to develop similarly under certain circumstances, even independently? It seems like European Indo-European languages developed the articles progressively as they began to merge their nouns' cases. Slavic languages conserve their cases and don't use articles.

>>22907184
>inaccusative
I mean inergative

>>22907184
Could this be of interest?
https://www.amazon.com/Language-Contact-Europe-Periphrastic-Approaches/dp/0521514932

>>22907184
Also the Charlemagne Sprachbund:
>For Europe, the most prominent sprachbund that we can determine is referred to as SAE (= Standard Average European) or Charlemagne sprachbund. Haspelmath (2001) illustrates that German, Dutch, French, Occitan and Northern Italian are the most central members of this sprachbund. Important features are (cf., e.g., Haspelmath 2001, Heine/Kuteva 2006):
>the distinction between an indefinite and a definite article
> the formation of relative clauses, which are positioned after the (pro)noun >concerned and are introduced by a variable relative pronoun
> a past tense construction with "to have"
> a passive voice construction that shows the object of the action in the >syntactic position of the subject and that uses the past participle in connection with an auxiliary
> a specific suffix for the comparative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European

>>22907197
Very. Thanks, anon.

>>22907203
One could assume that once two varieties of language start diverging, will become always more and more distant, but it seems that those varieties can still influence each other in subtle ways and "evolve" in parallel directions. This may also be the reason why western romance languages are more similar between them than to Latin.
Thanks again, anon, very interesting.

>>22907203
One could assume that once two varieties of a language start diverging, will become always more and more distant, but it seems that those varieties can still influence each other in subtle ways and "evolve" in parallel directions. This may also be the reason why western romance languages seem more similar between them than to Latin.
Thanks again, anon, very interesting.

>Rouzer is clearly better for students of Japanese or Korean,
>while Fuller is clearly better for students of Linguistics;
>otherwise, they are nearly interchangeable.
Can someone explain why?

>>22907348
>Each lesson consists of a text, a vocabulary list featuring discussions of meaning and usage, explanations of grammar, and explications of difficult passages. The standard modern Chinese, Japanese, and Korean pronunciations are indicated for each character, making this a learning tool for native speakers of those languages as well. Appendices give suggestions for further readings, review common and significant words, explain the radical system, and provide Japanese kanbun readings for all the selections. Glossaries of all vocabulary items and pronunciation indexes for modern Chinese and Korean are also included.
This was written on the description for the Rouzer's book on Amazon.

>>22905221
from the info about this movie this is supposed to be gibberish on purpose, it only (supposedly) ought to sound like ancient mediterranean languages, so I don't think there's even many actual distinctively helleni-ish sounding words

>>22907728
Okay, thanks for the info. I was under the impression it was actually Hellenic and Sanskrit smashed together.

>>22907728
Even if it’s gibberish I assume it’s supposed to be the conversation between Calypso and Ulysses about allowing him to return home in Book 5.

>>22907348
Took a glance at Rouzer's book, and I think the reason is rather clear. I don't know what introductions to Literary Chinese made for those without knowledge of East Asian languages look like, but I would assume that they're simpler like this. The very first thing you see after the introduction is this. Then you have 27 different characters, each with several different meanings, all lined up. Afterwards a 3-4 page short commentary that doesn't quite directly address the text. Nothing special or strange about this type of treatment that he's giving to the reader, but forget the rest, just by not knowing the characters you'll suffer tremendously. I can easily imagine someone checking the meaning of every one of the 27 characters presented in this short lesson several times, and obliterating his brain for a half hour or full hour trying to read the text. This book by Rouzer seems to be pretty good, but you'll not enjoy it much if you aren't at least accustomed to Chinese characters or extremely autistic.

>>22907905
Also, I have seen him say this about dictionaries for Literary Chinese. That last part about Chinse-English dictionaries might be of interest to you.

>>22907641
>>22907910
Thanks for your answers
Let me ask one more entry level low-quality question
>Q: What pronunciation scheme should I use?
>A: If you know an Asian language already, use that one. If not, ..., Mandarin
What? Is reading, like, the Tang poetry with Korean or even Japanese pronunciation really a thing?
I'm thinking of different readings for the same character in Japanese, it kinda doesn't make any sense.
How does that work in reality?

>>22908089
>Is reading, like, the Tang poetry with Korean or even Japanese pronunciation really a thing?
That it is. In fact I read the ones in lesson one in Japanese. It's kind of hard to explain since it just comes to you naturally, in my case I end up reading the characters with the Japanese pronounciation, both onyomi and kunyomi, automagically translating the text into a sort of modern Japanese, and bouncing back and forth between the characters while doing those two. It all just happens unconsciously, with no pain on my part and no delays in reading either.
To give an example, for the first text I read it as:
>Mei(命) shiru(知) mono(者), ama(天) uramanu(不怨)
>Onore(己) shiru(知) mono(者), hito(人) uramanu(不怨)
You would write these out as;
>命知る者天怨まぬ
>己知る者人怨まぬ
in modern Japanese. These are perfectly intelligible to Japanese natives and foreigners with okay levels of Japanese knowledge. By the way, to my understanding all the things I've described to you also count just as well for Korean, the million types of Chinese, for Vietnamese, and so on. They also have their own little ways of comprehending the texts, the end result is same but all the ways are different. You might also be interested in knowing that I can understand the meaning of some of these texts, among these three I got two of them right on the first try. The one I fucked up was #1, I misunderstood mei(命) as life when in this case it was fate.

>>22906898
Would be useful for things like poems and puns.

>>22907263
There are plenty of other sprachbunds in the world, like that in the Balkans, in India, in East/Southeast Asia, in Northern/Central Asia...

>>22908192
I'll add the way this anon is reading it is not exactly standard practice, but they have the basic concept.

>>22909212
Even if it is for mere philological curiosity it's still worth it to investigate the phonology of Latin and its evolution (of any ancient language, actually.) I don't get guys who come to a philological thread and sperg about which parts of the languages studied here should be considered of interest and which shouldn't. Imagine saying to someone studying Sanskrit that he should not care about pronunciation.
That being said, can someone recommend some interesting piece of literature about the sonus medius? It is usually said that it was a close central vowel but I wonder if there are different opinions, like maybe someone considered it to be a devoiced or a reduced/centralized vowel from the etymological u. Do vowels always have to evolve progressively or can change more or less abruptly? Is there any comparative evidence of any of those two? NO YT VIDS please, thank you.

>>22909550
Forgot to add it doesn't have to be in English, German or romance languages are fine, too.

>>22897365
Cry about it, bitch.

>constantly have moments of deja vu learning Latin
bros... what could the meaning of this be

>>22909676
Suppressed memories of being raped by Luke Ranieri as a child

>>22898792
>>22898848
Oh really? how did they speak it then? did they speak with Sidney Allen's Germanic phonemes after all? Is the Calabrese just wrong all of a sudden? Also, I find it quite humorous that you should mock his long vowels. Can you recite poetry for me? If you can't get the meter right you have no right to lecture people about Latin. Vowel length matters.

>>22898595
He was Irish, you dunce.

Anons, please help me make a decision: Should I go to college to learn more about classical languages (+ philosophy classes probably) or learn on my own? I hardly care about the money or lack thereof. Please tell me as much as you can about your experiences with the class, and how much colleges vary. My high school Latin classes were useless, largely. I just wanna read and write epic poems.

>>22897271
My best guess would be somewhere in Italy. Rome or the Vatican, there might still be some people publishing in Latin.

>>22909690
>Is the Calabrese just wrong all of a sudden?
Calabrese is a fringe theory that nobody cared about until certain egotistical YouTuber started to push it. Only the sheeple that follow him believe that there is some sort of academic debate between Allen and Calabrese.
That being said, you can pronounce Latin however you want. None cares.

>>22909778
If money is not a problem, I'd choose the path of formal education.

>>22909233
Anon you replied to here, what exactly is the standard way? I was under the assumption that this is how everybody did it, at least back in the good old days.

>>22909918
The basic principle is right on, but the particular readings applied are a little different. In particular 天 would probably be read てん (and if it's given kunyomi it would be あめ, あま is a linking form) and 不怨 would be うらまず rather than うらまぬ. If you want a book on the standard practices, this is one of the better ones I've found in English:
https://archive.org/details/crawcour-introduction-to-kambun

>>22909778
Formal college courses will keep you honest, and expose you to professors and other students who will, ideally at least, assist, inform and inspire your work. The degree will be largely worthless outside of academia though, so keep that in mind. Personally, I would save your money and self study since in my experience at college for greek and philosophy, the teachers were largely unhelpful, and the students uninspired or uninterested in acheiving their potential as thinkers/writers, and I was at a "top" philosophy/language Uni. I dropped it after a year and will never go back, and I've made more advances on my own since then. My 2 cents.

Hello friends,
I am reasonably conversational in Japanese and I figure learning classical chinese would be a good way to drill characters.
At the same time, I want to learn Mandarin pronunciation properly from the get-go.
Would anyone be willing to read some of the sentences from Rouzer?
Or if there's a website somewhere, that'd be great too, I've only found a few on bilibili.

> 知命者不怨天,知己者不怨人。
> 禍生於欲得,福生於自禁。聖人以心導耳目,小人以耳目導心。
> 為善者天報以德。為不善者天報以禍。
> 君子有終身之憂,而無一朝之患。順道而行,循理而言。喜不加易,怒不加難。
> 天下失道,而後仁義生焉。國家不治,而後孝子生焉。民爭不分,而後慈惠生焉。道逆時反,而後權謀生焉。

Also, is there any science or historical math/physics in classical chinese?

>>22910033
>At the same time, I want to learn Mandarin pronunciation properly from the get-go.
Cantonese or Hokkien would be better for poetry but granted, there are more resources with Mandarin pronunciation. If you already speak Japanese why not approach it through kanbun, though?
>Would anyone be willing to read some of the sentences from Rouzer?
Couldn't you just use a text-to-speech program?
>Or if there's a website somewhere, that'd be great too, I've only found a few on bilibili.
It's not hard to find audio of CC texts (but actual texts, not so much contrived textbook sentences) on YouTube and Bilibili.
>Also, is there any science or historical math/physics in classical chinese?
Not sure about physics, but ctext.org has a mathematics section (though it's not the most extensive). Kanripo also has medical, astronomical, and mathematical sections.

>>22910048
Kanbun definitely comes more naturally to me but I figure Mandarin is more canonical. Japanese phonology is also extremely limited and that worries me slightly.
Text-to-speech in English is usually quite poor with stress and accent but I suppose Mandarin with its tones might be better? If you think they're natural enough, I'll give them a go.
Thank you!

>>22910096
What do you mean, more canonical? It's just another descendant of Middle Chinese, and a fairly innovative one at that. I think it's stupid how people treat Mandarin as the "primary" or "legitimate" descendant of Old and Middle Chinese. That would be like treating French, and only French, as the "primary" or "legitimate" descendant of Latin.

>>22910110
I obviously don't mean that it's any more valid than other pronunciation, it just seems that academia has settled on Mandarin as the 'main' pronunciation system.
If they settled on Cantonese or reconstructed Chinese instead, I'd be using that.
I also might choose to learn modern Mandarin more properly, in which case learning how to pronounce the characters would transfer much better.

>>22910014
Ah, so that's what you meant. I'll be honest, I only read 天 as あま because I think it sounds cooler that way. As for ぬ, I've been reading it like that for a while now since it just seems to "click" better in my head.
>book
Thanks, I'll make sure to check it out later if I have the time.
>>22910033
>I figure learning classical chinese would be a good way to drill characters.
To improve your ability to converse in Japanese? If so then it would probably not help much, unless you're an academian or something.
>if there's a website somewhere
Searching for 古文学网 should probably help with that.
>Also, is there any science or historical math/physics in classical chinese?
There should be many different books on those subjects out there, though whether you can actually find them is a problem. Maybe try looking through wikipedia for major works written in literary Chinese and then search for them in archive.org and the usual book pirate sites?
>>22910187
>it just seems that academia has settled on Mandarin as the 'main' pronunciation system.
I'd assume so as well. In Rouzer's book it also explicitly said this in the introduction:
>Of course, literary Chinese as originally read in the early dynasties would have sounded quite different than it does when read in Mandarin (in fact, modern Fujianese and Cantonese speakers—with some good reason—often assert that earlier literary pronunciation is closer to their own dialects). There is no particular reason for assuming that Mandarin is the best language to use when reading literary Chinese, except as a matter of convenience. However, all students (including those who know Japanese or Korean) should take the time to learn the spelling of proper names in their Mandarin romanization—for no other reason than that Western language scholarship tends to use the Mandarin version.

>>22910187
Western academia has anyway, in the Sinosphere people generally just read it in their local pronunciation. Hong Kongers read it in Cantonese, Koreans read it in Korean (with hyeonto), etc.

>>22910110
>>22910187
Modern written Chinese is based on Mandarin grammar regardless of whether it's read with Cantonese reflexes. Mandarin is also the living variety with the oldest dictionaries. On the other hand the alphabetization of 'Chinese' would be less of a challenge without the greater homophony of Mandarin compared to other varieties.

>>22910359
>On the other hand the alphabetization of 'Chinese' would be less of a challenge without the greater homophony of Mandarin compared to other varieties.
You could always use something like Chao's General Chinese.

>>22910359
That's curious. Does that mean written Cantonese differs from the spoken variety? Or is older Cantonese written using a different grammar?
>>22910234
>To improve your ability to converse in Japanese? If so then it would probably not help much, unless you're an academian or something.
I'm almost entirely interested in reading. I already know the Japanese for a lot, so I'll try and learn both, but it seems better to prioritize Mandarin in the long run.
It's curious how people here de-emphasize Mandarin though, I figured it'd be the safest choice.

>>22910402
Cantonese speakers do their formal writing in Standard Written Chinese (which is based primarily on formal Mandarin vocabulary and grammar) but read it in Cantonese character readings. Informally they'll write in Cantonese. It's in a similar position to, say, AAVE or Swiss German.

>>22910367
It's a neat idea that deserves further refinement in the modern age. It would be nice to have the different stop consonants rendered similar to Paiboon for Thai along with accent markings for the tones.

>>22910442
I feel like GC is pretty alright as it is, even if it's not perfect. (Personally my main criticisms are some of the distinctions it drops, like 羅 vs. 螺 or 魚 vs 虞, as well as some of its more Mandarin-centric spellings like <min> but <ren> (民 rhymes with 人 in MIddle Chinese and as many modern varieties as not), or <er> rather than <ri> for 而.)

>>22910405
>AAVE or Swiss German
Kek. I think those two are a bit more intelligible with their fellow standard varieties.

when did this general turn into chink shit

>>22910510
Chinese is based

>>22910510
I'm hoping it blows over. This used to be my favorite thread of all time. The only language I can think of that is more boring than Chinese is old Chinese.

>>22910513
You like it because the phonology is for the brain dead, there's no complicated morphology, and you're only pretending to remember what the characters are.

>>22910517
>mvh...
>bigvs
>dickvs
>sanctvs
>scorpivs
>postvs
>handvs

>>22910517
>It's not good because there's no epic grammars for me to jack off to
The grammarnigger is the ultimate plague. You'll all get hanged soon enough.

>>22903827
Superiority complex + ignorance
>>22903839
Greek sounds like Spanish, too.

>>22910536
You will learn the optative. You will love the aorist. You will remember when to ouk and when to oux. And you will like it!

>>22910545
It sounds totally different.

>>22909901
>some sort of academic debate
I'm yet to read a contemporary scholar that says something different from "shorter vowels MAY have been lower than their long counterparts". There may be no debate but there is no certainty either.

>>22910569
I think he refers to modern Greek, which sounds so similar to Spanish from Spain that it's uncanny.

>>22910699
I think they sound more like Italians, but most of my Spanish experience is being surrounded by cholos.

>>22910717
Spain should sue Mexico for the damage to its brand

>>22910718
lmao probably, I could see the UN looking at video evidence disgusted

Is it gud?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJq_l6Ihs2c&t=288

>>22910545
i don't consider m*dern greek a real language

How many years would it realistically take me to combine Latin(Ecclesiastical pronounciation), Koine Greek and Literary Chinese into a single language, that of the antichrist?

>senatus quos ad soleret referendum censuit, Cicero
pretty interesting world order going on here, especially for prose

>>22911326
I think it has nothing to do with being poetry or prose but with the idiosyncratic uses of the preposition ad.

>>22911537
>idiosyncratic
well yeah that's why it stood out, it kinda appears out of nowhere in the text, especially when the normal order 'ad quos' would've been just fine
I had only seen 'ad' used this way in Virgil before, but that could be attributed to poetic licence, here it's just weird

>>22909690
>Vowel length matters.
Yeah, no fucking shit, you retard. My point was obviously that Luke doesn't do it naturally at all. Being an EFL, he has no L1 intuition of vowel length, so he goes overboard with it and ends up sounding retarded. He doesn't say [aː], but [aːːːːːːːːːː]. There is no way you don't find this hilarious or jarring.

>>22911977
Romans spoke like that, retard. A single long vowel could last as long as a few minutes.

>>22910510
bin hao bung chao RAYCIS Y BOI CHINESE CRASSICAR RANGUAGE TOO NOT ONLY GREEK AND RATIN RAYCIS nim shin bun fun shing ding

>>22912767
That's why they won the Punic wars. Even if Roman didn't have naval experience they developed an incredible pulmonary capacity which allowed them to use infantry tactics and formations in the sea.

>>22910510
>>22912818
>>>/g/98217255

>>22897365
What is the deal with this guy, anons? I've been wondering whether to add Latin to my ever more meandering list of languages to acquire or be in the process of acquiring, but my aesthetic enjoyment of the language is a big deal to me. Before learning Greek I looked up some guy on youtube who speaks absolutely mesmerizing Attic, so I decided to look for the same sort of thing for Latin and I arrived at this fellow, and I really don't like it.
To be honest, though, I really dislike the sound of Italian, so maybe there was never much of a chance there anyway, but I do like the way Latin looks, and, furthermore, knowing both Latin and Greek is, of course, a very venerable tradition. I had it for two years in high school and I definitely thought it was cool then.

>>22912839
>some guy on youtube who speaks absolutely mesmerizing Attic
who?

>>22910754
kek no, why do larpers always try to speak Latin without even knowing how a romance language is supposed to sound? He should take a few Italian lessons.

>>22912874
can't even tell if bait or not, the guy is literally Italian

>>22912839
he just doesn't sound particularly good in general, not everyone has an euphonic voice, but there's nothing really wrong with his Latin beyond idiosyncrasic elements which everyone carries, including ancient Latin speakers

>>22912963
I can't judge his Latin but his Italian sounds like a parody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmvIDQ2d9kU&list=PLTEcFCqHIhTboMtZ0LYhlep0kMlTJKG34&index=1&pp=iAQB
Thoughts?

>>22912984
nice

>>22897271
http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/

>>22898093
Nope. Verb last goes.

>>22912844
Seconded. Send those angelic chords over

>>22898163
K as in Kalandar.

>>22913351
Never. I put it squarely in the middle. Also use un/ille.

>>22913347
Nice, I hope to see more poems being published.

>you will never hear the real natural native pronunciation of classical languages
>closest thing is spergs on yt that sound completely autistic
grim

>>22910472
AAVE is, but apparently Germans often have difficulty understanding much of Swiss German.

>>22910510
There is no sensible definition of 'classical language' which does not include Classical Chinese.

>>22910517
If anything the lack of inflection makes it harder because you have to figure out by context what part of speech something is. And I don't see how anything in Latin is harder for an English-speaker to pronounce and hear than tones.

>>22910567
>You will remember when to ouk and when to oux.
Isn't that just a matter of whether the following word begins with the rough breathing (i.e. /h/)? So it makes perfect sense.

>>22913351
SOV is the default/unmarked word order.

>>22914137
At least you can hear their descendants. Since most of the Romance languages sound similar to each other it seems like a reasonable guess that their common ancestor sounded something like that too, in terms of prosody, rhythm etc.

>>22914372
>Isn't that just a matter of
>>You will remember when to ouk and when to oux.
hehe gotcha

>>22914397
My point is it barely counts as remembering because it's so obvious.

>>22914397
>>22914372
but when do i ou

>>22914381
>descendants
spurii lupae romae

>>22912844
>>22913353
This gentleman right here. He seems to be a sort of Greek theatre guy who spent a ridiculous amount of time polishing his ancient Greek accent.

https://youtu.be/RNlzQ6Trr3Q?si=lnvICmxW1t7TFuPs

>>22912963
I suppose that's true. I heard some other guy try to speak Attic and he sounded like a sort of Guatemalan goblin entity to me.
The guy posted here ( >>22910754 )
does, in fact, sound pretty good to me.

>>22914137
If you put some of the really devoted spergs in the target language area in the target time, they'd be understood. They might sound like they've got a slightly weird accent, but it's not going to be very far removed in any case.

>>22914513
οὐ when the following word starts with a consonant, οὐκ or οὐχ, depending on whether the following vowel has rough breathing or not, when the following word starts with a vowel, in order to avoid hiatus, like often happens e.g. in French.

>>22914668
>This gentleman right here
Ioannis Stratakis. He does indeed sound good.

Lost a week of progress to my untreated chronic depression that I've had for years but now we're back into it. 2nd declension is almost down pat.

>>22914718
I do get the feeling that the pitch dialect as he renders it would be a bit weird for natural, everyday use. Sounds good, anyway, so who cares.
When I first heard this I got this sense of Greek being such an immensely h-dominant, utterly breathy language, that I really liked. It has also led me to always imagine words like ἐροῦμεν with that pitch flourish he does automatically whenever I encounter them.

>>22915057
To be fair, imagine if you only heard of modern European languages, and somebody described you the phonetics of Chinese, you would probably also think that there is no way that people speak with the tones naturally in everyday speech. Yet here we are...

>nulla tunc geminabatur littera in scribendo: quam consuetudínem Enníus mutauisse fertur, utpote Graecus Graeco more usus
fucking bastards why couldn't they do the same for vowels? this is by far the worst crime of rome

>Anglorum vero etiam doctissiini tam prave Latina efferunt, ut... quum quidam ex ea gente per quadrantem horae integrum apud me verba fecisset, neque ego magis eum intelligerem, quam si Turcice loquutus fuisset, hominem rogaverim, ut excusatum me haberet, quod Anglice non bene intelligerem

>>22914397
UwU

>>22914409
I think most people would actually verbally do that naturally to be fair

>>22914832
Excellent!

>>22915442
Exactly.

>>22914668
I wish there was someone doing what he's doing for Latin: reading classical books with a pleasing properly reconstructed pronunciation.
Instead Latin faggots are too busy translating disney songs and hobbitus ille.

>>22915170
Anon, I wanted to add pretty much exactly what you posted to my post, except for the fact that I was going to use Japanese as the example because I've been told that its pitch accent is similar to that of ancient Greek, but I felt like it was going to be yapping off too much and I wanted to keep it short because I have a tendency to produce walls of text.
So, anyway, a Jap couldn't get Greek right because he's not European, and a European couldn't get Greek right because he's not a Jap.

>>22915860
It's kind of odd that there's not, because Latin seems to be by far the more popular language. That might be why, though. A lot of people seem to be engaged in an effort to meme Latin back into common use, which, in our day and age, might mean producing a heap of reddit shit in it.

Is Czech secretly a perfect model language for Laitn pronunciation, in particular in terms of vowel lengths?
1) Each vowel can be long or short
2) There can be multiple long vowels in a word
3) Vowel length is independent of stress/accent
4) There is no quality change in long vowels (in contrast to, say, English or German)

Latin is divided in two bands:
>Boomers that learn latin by translating Caesar's De Bello Gallico and writing declinations until they die of boredom. They argue that latin is serious business and not something to be enjoyed. Also you are not allowed to speak latin because it is a dead language.
>Zoomers and influencers who follow the comprehensive imput theory. They tend to gravitate towards pop culture. They give up after a few months because tiktok destroyed their attention span.

>>22916106
Unironically chilean spanish is the perfect model language for Latin pronunciation, in particular in tems of vowel lenghts.
1) Each vowel can be long or short
2) There can be multiple long vowels in a word
3) Vowel length is independent of stress/accent
4) There is no quality change in long vowels (in contrast to, say, English or German)
5) Actual descendant of latin

>>22916106
I don't know if perfect (mora timed? kind of accent? phonemic inventory? gemination? etc) but speaking a language that distinguishes between short and long vowels will undoubtedly help with pronouncing correctly short and long vowels.

>>22916272
>1) Each vowel can be long or short
Excuse me what?

I haven't even finished italian athenaze yet but learning greek has been a real joy so far. I've been using Luke Ranieri's free recordings of athenaze that he does in his own pronunciation (Lucian) which I find quite pleasant to listen to. But I understand that many people here consider him a faggot. Am I going to hell?

>>22916506
Just say you are using "some sort of reconstructed pronunciation", never call it Lucian, and Allah will have mercy on you.

>>22916127
We need a new neo-Renaissance man to arise, who, like they did in the old Renaissance, thinks Latin is serious business but does not treat it as a dead language, which culminates in him using it as an elite auxiliary language that he employs with great joy and gusto to talk to his fellow autistic intellectuals, penning great works in it that will provide an impetus for other intellectuals to learn the language in order to engage with the growing corpus of works and cultural momentum of this group of fellows, thereby continually expanding said group while still maintaining the filtration necessary to keep its output high-brow and worthwhile.
Doesn't this describe basically every classical language used as a high cultural register throughout history, e.g. Latin, Sanskrit, Classical Chinese? Have we simply become too egalitarian and, hence, too concerned with accessibility (retards must read!)?

Classical it is then

>>22916106
that one vivarium novum guy who is a native Czech speaker does indeed sound pretty good

>>22916786
There's nothing stopping [Anon] from writing books in his target language, translating existing works to it, speaking to others in the language(on the internet at least).
I wonder if there's any active communities on the internet who primarily speak Classical Chinese.

NOVUM
>>22916891
>>22916891
>>22916891

>>22916786
>We need a new neo-Renaissance man to arise, who, like they did in the old Renaissance, thinks Latin is serious business but does not treat it as a dead language, which culminates in him using it as an elite auxiliary language that he employs with great joy and gusto to talk to his fellow autistic intellectuals, penning great works...
Spoilers. A big part of the Renaissance was getting away from Latin. Leonardo DaVinci was pretty much illiterate in Latin. Furthermore, the Latin grammarians of the Renaissance approached Latin as a dead and altered language to reconstruct its Classical pronunciation.