/lit/ - Literature

I wanted to see how low the Sons of Feanor would go

You wouldn’t get it.

I saw Melkor as being more of a cartoon villain desu
I can picture him, his hands always clasped together in a devilish scheming way always preparing his next evil act

>>22895314
spbp
Op, you're too wicked to get it.

They are a metaphor for pre-christian jews, so of course they are obsessed with jewels

>>22895296
Why does there have to be a moral or a message to every story? Morgoth steals Silmarils, Elves leave Valinor to make war against him, there's a bunch of battles and adventures and other cool stuff. Is that not enough for you?

>>22895416
>t. retard
The Elves are an image of Unfallen Man.
>>22895296
Fëanor, his sons, and all the Noldor acted against the counsel of the Valar in pride and hubris and it brought them ruin. The moral is don't fall to pride and hubris.
However you have also forgotten the importance of the Kinslaying. The Noldor's murder and theft of the ships of the Teleri made them true exiles utterly forsaken by the Valar. This is the crux of the Prophecy (Curse) of Mandos and the ultimate significance of the Noldor's return to Valinor after Morgoth's defeat, where it is written plainly that "the curse was laid to rest."

>>22895311
It's a shame that his line died out. So much wasted potential.

>>22895772
If the line didn’t die out then they probably would’ve claimed the kingship of the Noldor after Gil-Galad died, which would’ve caused even more strife amongst the Noldor

>>22895416
>this is your brain on /pol/

>>22895808
Would it? The Silmarils are lost forever. Of course I guess they become lost as a result of the deaths of Maedhros and Maglor. And they are physically incapable of fulfilling their oath any longer since the Silmarils scorch their flesh now. I think it couldn't have ended any other way than with the end of Fëanor's line to suicide, which is exactly what happened.

>>22895737
This is such a retarded normie take, how do you not self cringe whenver you post such trash. Feano was rebelling against the gods' incompetence. He was the only one who saw how they fucked with morgoth and led to his father's and probably even his mother's death. His decisions directly influence the rest of all of Tolkien's stories which is why Tolkien maintains that he was the greatest of the children of eru. The story is more much about the cluelessness of the gods and the suffering they ensure to all middle earth with how they handle Feanor and how his initial decisions including making the silmarils doomed morgoth from the start, that's why its called the silmarillion and not some other faggy morally relevant title.

>>22895737
This is such a retarded normie take, how do you not self cringe whenever you post such trash. Feanor was rebelling against the gods' incompetence. He was the only one who saw how they fucked up with morgoth and led to his father's and probably even his mother's death. His decisions directly influence the rest of all of Tolkien's stories which is why Tolkien maintains that he was the greatest of the children of eru. The story is more much about the cluelessness of the gods and the suffering they ensure to all middle earth with how they handle Feanor and how his initial decisions including making the silmarils doomed morgoth from the start, that's why its called the silmarillion and not some other faggy morally relevant title.

>>22895314
Yep. You >>22895296 are a godless, hedonistic, spiritually bankrupt, demonic, superficial nigger. Goyim proles like you who are a product of modernity by being thoroughly soaked in its degenerate culture since birth, wouldn't get this or anything similar from the real world.

>>22896153
>aaaactualllyyyy the Kinslaying and the Oath were... LE GOOD!
Please read the Silmarillion again, this is embarrassing.
Morgoth was doomed from the start because Eru willed it.
Feanor was the greatest of the Children in craft and skill; pride is his downfall. He dies almost immediately upon returning to Middle-earth, understand on his deathbed that the war against Morgoth is utterly hopeless, and still tells his sons to keep fighting.
It's said explicitly as the Valar hold council after the destruction of the Trees that they were not idle as Feanor accused them, but rather deep in thought, as they knew rash acts would lead to nothing but ruin. Furthermore it's suggested before the theft of the Silmarils is known that the Trees could be healed with their power. Feanor immediately refuses the idea of relinquishing them to Yavanna because he is too proud.

>>22897389
I did not say it was good retard. I said feanor rebelled against the gods for their incompetence. You made all the moral arguments and the noldor followed him, so if you want to talk about good then yeah they are as bad as you think he is. Pride may be his downfall but it was his pride that made morgoth's defeat possible when every other elf obeyed the valar, you can say eru did it but so can you say of eru allowing morgoth to come back or any other convenient decision you think he did not make, yea eru does everything, that's the entire story of the silmarillion, no one does anything else.

>>22897414
Feanor did nothing to make Morgoth's defeat possible. It was the Host of the Valar who came over the sea only because Earendil begged them after Morgoth completely crushed the Noldor. You can say Earendil's mother is a descendant of Fingolfin if you like but his voyage would never have been necessary if the Noldor had just stayed in Aman.

>>22897444
Earendil was responding to what feanor's sons had done lmao which was pursue the silmarils, we can do this all day and it would always come back to feanor's decisions. You can hate him all you like, it won't change anything. To contend with a god you can't be a nice agreeable character, you have to be an extremely stubborn person as feanor rightfully was. The entire book is an account of the impact of his decisions, i don't see how you can refute this. You can even go as far as argue that morgoth was doomed the moment he lays eyes on the silmarils.

>>22895826
Depends on how it survives I guess. If Celebrimbor survives then he probably wouldn’t claim the kingship at all. However, if Feanor has multiple grandchildren from different sons then I think that complicates things. Especially considering Maedhros renounced the claim of the House of Feanor to the kingship.

>>22895326
If you just look at what he became then maybe. But the character is a bit more nuanced. He didn't start as something "evil" but rather just curious and creative in the beginning. Every other divine entity just toed Eru's line, but he wanted to express his own ideas. The jealousy and rage that later came to completely define him started out as a desire to define himself separately from Eru and his plan. The first chapters, where they are making the world and Melkor keeps disrupting their designs and yet still ultimately improving things overall is a good example of his actual importance in the world, and why Eru probably made him in the first place. It's the exact same scenario (obviously) as Satan and the problem of evil in Christianity. God made everything and designed all according to a plan, yet scapegoats part of his own design into being the real "evil" rather than just acknowledging the fact that evil has its role in defining the world and amplifying what is good. Melkor is just like a gifted kid who sees his best efforts to impress his parents and teachers ignored or condemned in favour of his goody-two shoes siblings/classmates who are far less talented but do as they are told. Eventually that eager curiosity and creativity is directed into hatred and the desire to destroy and corrupt if they can't be loved and accepted for what they are.

>The entire book is an account of the impact of his decisions
Of course it was. They were flawed decisions driven by pride and arrogance against the wisdom of the Valar.
None of this is to say that the Valar made no mistakes in dealing with Melkor, but it is undeniable that untold misery and suffering could have been averted if Feanor were able to defer his revenge. The Valar would have had to deal with the problem of Morgoth eventually and it could have happened eventually without the wars of the Noldor against Morgoth, where the Noldor's total defeat was inevitable (again, something Feanor understood on his deathbed as he looked back at Thangorodrim).
This all being said, it's obviously a major theme of the book that from evil springs new beauty. Manwe himself understands this after Feanor departs. The evil of the Kinslaying and the later burning of the ships results in the history of Beleriand unfolding, a beautiful story in itself that could not have been without that initial evil. And yet, as Mandos says, evil remains evil.

>>22897762
What the fuck are the Valar even doing throughout most of the ages?
Just jacking off in Valinor? For thousands of years?

>>22897819

Angels don't jack it, show some respect.

I think mostly scheming to undo the evil that Melkor caused, they sent the Istari to middle earth with specific missions meant to combat dark forces.

They work like Christian god and his angels, indirectly with respect to free will.

>>22896153
My God Reddit.

>>22898057
It's funny that the only Istari that ended up being useful was Gandalf - the weakest and arguably weirdest one of the bunch.

>>22898110
Radagast seemed weirder

>>22896153
Nigga yours is a retarded normie take. This isn't fucking game of thrones or whatever >le subversive >le gods and le good guys are actually le bad fantasy dreck you're been reading. Tolkien was a Catholic and his Catholic theology influenced everything he wrote. I do personally believe in death of the author to a degree and if you like your personal interpretation then who am I to tell you not to, but when you start claiming it to be actual authorial intent then we have a problem.

>>22897762
He understood what it would take to defeat morgoth when no one else did anything. That's why he had his sons re affirm the oath as he was dying because he knew that it would be the only way to force the valar to act. Why can't you see this, all you go on about is how his decisions were only prideful. No one did anything but him and only him.

>>22898268
He might have been a catholic, it doesn't mean he can't write some moral relativistic content, even by accident. There is no such thing as le good or bad when you are talking about mythological fiction, especially translated works as he assumed the silmarillion was.

>>22898110
Umm, Radagast is the weirdest one. He's like the autistic tree hugging unwashed hippie of the lot.

>>22895296
What's with retards who think every story has to have a "moral"? I have never cared about supposed "morals" in stories or sought them out.

>>22898057
>They work like Christian god and his angels, indirectly with respect to free will
So they don't do anything? Free will doesn't even exist.

>>22898057
>we're gonna send 5 of our weakest minions
>in the form of 90 year old human men
>they aren't allowed to use their powers to actually do anything useful
>no real mission parameters, just wander around for a thousand years once you're there and improvise
>no supply drops or regular status report meetings
Come on, that took like a single sunday's worth of planning. They were probably on pipeweed given how shit that plan was.

>>22899060
The Valar did not give two shits that Fëanor's sons waged a meaningless 600-year war for the Silmarils. They were moved to pity by how much of a fucking mess the Noldor got themselves into and finally decided to help. The Oath being completely in vain is made very, very clear throughout the entire book. If you can't see this I don't know what to tell you. Maedhros and Maglor literally kill themselves because of it.

>>22900717
You don't know this. The valar only acted after earendil and he only acted after feanor's sons, any other interpretations is you trying hard to equivocate.

>>22895296
>>nigger deity steals shiny jewels
Melkor was pure evil incarnate. he wanted to corrupt the jewels because they had the light of the first creation from the trees of Yavana.

It's supposed to be mythology. Do you look for a 'plot hook' when you're reading the Bible. You're approaching it like some modern film. Next you'll ask why it doesn't have a soundtrack. Tolkien should have just read Syd Field or Blake Snyder.

THIS leabhair blew me awaw.
but it reacted too quickly.
whatever i suppose.
i still remember jue

>>22900717
>You don't know this.
Yeah I do

>>22901115
Of couse you do, Tolkien told you pesonally didin't he?

>>22901115
Of course you do, Tolkien told you personally didn't he?

>>22901115
I'm sure tolkien whispered it to you while you were sleeping anon, since you are so special.