/lit/ - Literature

I've pretty much gotten to the point where I can read books in their original in 5-6 languages and it's just all so underwhelming. I thought it would feel amazing to be able to read a bunch of different languages, but it feels so mundane.

>>22874394
You're a smart boy.

Good audio books of Latin classics with proper pronuntiatio restituta? If these exist, where can they be found?

>>22874394
>mfw fluent in reading Latin
>mfw can barely construct a single sentence on my own

Why is output so hard compared tin input bros??

>>22874394
Poetry.

>>22874387
Fuck, there was such a thread all along.
Should I use the Ecclesiastical or the Classical pronunciation of Latin?

>>22874454
For me it's the opposite. I can speak perfect Latin but can barely understand it.

>>22874394
What kept you going?

>>22874523
See the thread on that. It comes down to this: nobody except your academic advisor can tell you what you "should" do about this, but it's beneficial to have a handle on both.

>>22874534
>the thread on that
Everybody there said the Classical one is absolute dogshit and meme but I still feel the Ecclesiastical one to sound somewhat retarded and mutulated.
>your academic advisor
She said I shouldn`t bother myself with learning more than two cases and the needed terms at all, but I sure she`ll stick on the Ecclesiastical if I ask straight.
>it's beneficial to have a handle on both
Nah.

>>22874454
You haven't trained output but have trained input extensively. There are composition books and classes for both Greek and Latin. Composition is still a requirement for grad students at my alma mater.

>>22874569
I can do Chaucerian pronunciation in English, and so can you with less than one hour of work. It will never feel as natural as my native pronunciation, but it will enable me to enjoy a certain set of texts more. So it is with juggling classical and ecclesiastical. Are you lazy or something?

>Everybody there said the Classical one is absolute dogshit and meme
They must be stupid. Vowel length and moraic timing are absolutely necessary for the enjoyment of classical poetry. Again, this does not mean you have to realize them with prose. It does however mean that you will mutilate Catullus and Vergil and Ovid if you are *only* capable of Ecclesiastical and/or butchered non-mora-timed anglo Classical pronunciation.

>>22874595
>lazy
I currently can articulate both but I won`t use both, the same way I learnt both RP and GA for English yet use only one and won`t read different English texts with different pronunciation.
>for the enjoyment of classical poetry
You`re saying all the time through the Middle Ages nobody could enjoy it? It`s literally impossible.

>>22874375
what is a good text in attic that has a readily available line by line translation

i don't understand present participle

>>22874635
you're not understanding the present participle? not a real understander huh?

>>22874587
>and classes
What do if there are literally just none in my country? Aside from just using the books.
Also, how do people normally make sure that the one teaching them in those classes isn't just some clueless retard, but actually has a good grasp on the language? I've been traumatized by my nation's private tutoring on foreign languages, every fucking time it's some B1-B2 nigger teaching you, and they just make shit up on the spot when they see something they don't know.

>>22874647
explain it to me

>>22874587
>You haven't trained output but have trained input
I only train output via(e) writing.

>>22874774
You need to be understanding it in order to be reading it properly. Only that way can you be realizing its meaning when you are seeing it

>Coming back to Latin after several months
>re-read de bello gallico again
>All those Gaul names just slide out of my brain
>retain nothing
>still slowly parsing grammar and struggling to understand

Just pushing this boulder up the hill

>>22874820
You've just gotta keep the consistency going. My strategy is to read at least 6-10 lines a week, and it keeps me consistent, though I haven't been making much progress with just that pace

>>22874843
It's a cycle I'm all too familiar with.

>work consistently for a long time
>feel like I'm not making progress
>get discouraged, lose interest for a time
>come back and start again

Just an eternal treadmill. I'm never going to make it.

>>22874876
You don't need to "make progress." You read ancient languages to read the ancient works. I've been working through Martial lately with a reading group, and we've been getting through it slowly but surely. It's a hell of a lot more fun reading it in Latin than in English, and you get to appreciate the word choice and poetic aspects that Martial was taking. None of us are doing it to get better at Latin, we're just doing it to read the works. And if you come along something you don't know, you do some research and figure it out. But the point isn't to be making progress, if it was you'd be working through a textbook. The goal is to get through the text, and the only way to do that is to remain consistent.

>>22874876
>>22874905
I also do realize that I said that I wasn't making progress, and that was poor word choice on my part here>>22874843. I meant more like I'm not getting any faster. I used to be really fast when I was consistently doing Latin in an academic setting, and my meaning was that I'm not getting back to the pace that I'd once been at, not that I'm trying to actively get better

>>22874905
>None of us are doing it to get better at Latin, we're just doing it to read the works
Speak for yourself. If you can't write in the language you're not engaging with it. Everyone who reads Latin should be able to draft a letter in it, as it is THE language of letters.

Is it possible to learn to read Latin in the same that it's possible for me to learn to read French or Italian?

>>22875057
I was just talking about the group with whom I read. I also can write in it, I infrequently work on Latin poetry. Right now I'm working on an elegiac couplet, but that's not why I do Latin. I work on Latin texts because I enjoy the texts and the act of reading in Latin, the writing, while fun, is an afterthought

>>22875063
Of course. It's a hell of a lot easier in a traditional academic setting, but you can learn Latin just like you would learn any other language

>>22875138
>the writing, while fun, is an afterthought
Incorrect. It's the only way to prove absolutely sufficient in Latin and is where the real reward is at.

>>22875057
Do you have a good prompt for a letter? Sounds like a fun assignment

>>22874790
i don't get it

>>22875153
You are writing to the Gourmet (who has just recently come to Skyrim) on when he may arrive and cook at your estate. Giving him a list of ingredients or desired foods will help him greatly, along with payment defined.

>>22875138
Cool
I was a bit worried since it seemed like most people treated them differently
I'm excited to sit back and enjoy reading Caesar, Cicero and Virgil without having to look up words every page I read

Or, alternatively, you are writing your guest Caligula on what to expect for the upcoming party.

>>22875173
Optime Gourmet,
Bellum acre me a te divisit per hunc annum, et viae qui intersunt infestae fuerunt, cum latronibus militibusque, quos ego major odi. Sed pacem fecit, et ad villam vetus revertebaris. Si possis, in vere anni sequentis venito ad Hiemisarcem, cum grege, quorumcumque generum ut terribiliter quasi pauper sis, et coquemus. O amice, sicut florae sicae aquam volunt, volo coquere cum te, quia non per hunc annum totum. Si possis, deponito tua allia. ut musica est vitae, haec est carnibus. Volo pervidere scriptum manus tuae rursus, et mox!
Dilectus tuus, Anon

Asked last thread but gonna ask again. Has anyone here ever learned Old Irish? I've been considering it since I'm fluent in Modern Irish but I'm not sure if it'd be worthwhile to learn another classical language first.

Thoughts on Henle?

>>22874454
Isn't that fairly normal even in history? Most people who could read could not write competently. Especially today when Latin only has a use in reading.

>>22874626
If you won't read Chaucer with different pronunciation then you are missing out. Different periods if the language want different pronunciation.
People through the middle ages largely enjoyed the classical poets as essentially unmusical free verse. It would be a shame to do like them and discard the quantitative meter.

>>22874387
Do you guys buy the theory that Plethon wasn't strictly a Neo-Pagan or Hellenic Revivalist but more of an Orthodox Christian who had a reverence for the Hellenic Religion and Mythology?

>>22874630
can't go wrong with Xenophon I think, such a pleasant Attic
you can find an interlinear Anabasis, pic related by Gorgias Press, maybe there's even other editions or works haven't checked

>>22875830
Not even remotely. He was more die hard pagan than the original pagans.

>>22875901
>δέ νεώτερος
What

>>22875901
Not very pleasant Attic if you mess with the word order to the point of ungrammaticality

>>22875943
I mean Xenophon himself which I personally read without interlinear.
I agree that changing the order isn't too much of a good idea though as far as keeping the language pretty, which is why I prefer bilingual editions instead of interlinears. But maybe he can find some interlinear version that didn't change the order.

>>22875969
Interlinear editions are generally distract.
If he's at a decent enough level, he can get the Steadman edition. If not, he can wait.

>>22875057
How do I learn this power? It feels like reading will never get me close to that kind of fluency.

>>22876052
Take your favorite fictional writing. Put it into a pdf. Double space it. Pro t it out. Grab a Collins dictionary and Wheelock's. Translate line by line looking up individual word morphology if uncertain. Check your translations on Google translate. Start with literal texts and move to idiomatic later.

>>22876084
>Check your translations on Google translate
stop trolling newfags

>>22874454
because output proficiency can't be faked

>>22872623

>>22876274
git gut fgt

>>22876315
I love these editions so much. They help me strive to greater things. I'm studying languages; I don't want to read English when I can avoid it.

>>22876315
>>22876336
You're both wrong, sweaty. There are people who is absolutely fluent in reading Latin, and I mean as fluent as native ancient Romans were, but aren't able to write a single sentence, mostly because you grammar chuds can't get over your declension tables and feel the urge to verbally assault whoever violates any of your 'language laws' (which are mere reductionist abstractions in reality). Those "scholars" are faking it and do that exclusively as a gatekeeping mechanism, pretty sure they can't even actually read without translating in their heads, funny who some people consider transverbalizing the same thing as being capable of reading (fluently.)

>>22876398
Anon you can't say that you've mastered a language until you can compose in it. Language is about both input and output. Certainly for a language like Latin the input is more important, but have some fun, write some poems. My friends and I try to speak some Latin occasionally, but we're not very good at it since we're not used to doing it.

I have been studying latin for about 2.5 weeks now. In the last week I have become noticeably better at recognizing declensions (and therefore understanding sentences without having to spend 5 minutes translating) which I'm very happy about. I feel super motivated because of my progress.

Learning makes me happy.

>>22876569
>I'm very happy about.
that's unironically all that matters, keep at it, anon

>>22876569
BENE

>>22875901
You’re never going to learn any Greek if the English is eye raping you. Get a Loeb at least

>>22876654
>SECUNDA VIGILIA EXPERGISCITOR
>OMNES DECLINATIONES AD MANE EXERCETO

Unless you're absolutely intent on paperfeel, getting the text downloads of ancient texts on an e-reader is far more economical than loebs.

>>22876795
I mean considering you can get the texts for free, of course it's more economical.

>>22863973
Latin is a natural human language, there's nothing objectively special about it. If you can learn a modern language, there's no reason why you can't learn Latin. (That said, if we're taking the premise seriously: Why Latin in all countries? Why not use the local classical language in countries outside the western cultural sphere?)

>>22876795
it's far worse for making notes tho

>>22866584
>your grandkids will speak Tagalog
Not very likely unless they live in the Philippines.

>>22868484
I don't they're denying that, they're questioning whether available materials are enough for proper acquisition without any help from other methods. I'm not sure I agree with their point, but you're not even responding to it.

>>22869728
Bald man has a series about the IPA. So does Fluent Forever.

>>22871884
Just read gradually older and older literature until you've frogboiled yourself into reading Old Irish.

>>22874431
There are some on librivox.

I'm like half way through my Ancient Greek textbook and I've been waiting for Greek to get hard, but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe -μι verbs will finally break me.

>>22876923
what textbook are you using?
>Maybe -μι verbs will finally break me
they won't

>>22876948
It's in French: Initiation au Grec Ancien by Vernhes

Are there good intermediate/advanced Latin textbooks with exercises? I feel like reading through LLPSI and Roma Aeterna has not prepared me at all to read real Latin.

>>22877081
Start reading easy, real Latin, like the Vulgate or Nepos. Or alternatively, you can look into these readers that this anon lists.

>>22877091
I've read many of those. I want something more than just reading material. It's far too easy to just glide over things and just think 'sure, I get the gist of it' and miss important details and vocabulary. Or have vocabulary and grammar just go in one ear and out the other.

>>22876882
shut up fag

>>22877237
he's right although

>>22877599
I'm actually a girl but thanks.

>>22877091
What exactly makes the Vulgate "real Latin"?

>>22877792
because it was meant for stinky plebeians

>>22877766
this is not tiktok, here you're just a stinky anon like any other

>>22876923
present participles are filtering me

>>22874394
Chorus:
A polyglottal Midas. Power without force.
The Fates laugh, his Muse in tears.
Where does she hide her face from him?

>>22878844
and yet you just used one in your periphrastic construction

>>22874394
>>22878858
Candidate for best /clg/ exchange of all time

Latin anons argue about textbooks and pronunciation schemes instead of studying their language, Greek anons do the same but act superior while doing so, Chinese anons sperg out about their bingbong chingchong bubble tea, Hebrew anons pretend their language exists, and Egyptian anons have dangerous psychosis. Who's winning /clg/? My vote is with the wisely taciturn Sanskritists and Arabists.

>>22880252
Hebrew is spoken by nearly 10 milion people in Israel and Palestine. There is only one boring troll who claims that Biblical Hebrew was created in the middle ages, but he is a stupid fag and does not understand neither Hebrew nor Aramaic. Edgy opinions on languages are okay if there are professional academics who share those claims, or if you are a genious and speak a certain language on a very high level.

>>22880366
>genious
Nice try FBI, your language still doesn't exist. Send a non-ESL next time

>>22880252
Ge'ez anon is winning.

>>22880404
>dedicates himself passionately to his language
>has actual research interests, microscopic and macroscopic
>has a larger community than the retiarii of /clg/
>actively discourages anons from picking up his language as aimless recreation
The only true chad we have

>>22880416
I have to admit that the temptation to start reading another textbook is way too strong. I've read chapter 1 for too many languages. I'm lucky that I did a classics major and actually forced myself to get through the basics of Greek and Latin rather than abandoning them for something else after a few weeks.

>>22880432
Textbooks lend temporary certainty to an uncertain world. It's not the worst habit to have. Take up math I guess
Or maybe you just like feeling confident in the early stages of things?

>>22880443
The problem is the treadmill of being exited to start, running out of steam, then picking up the next thing. Speaking of which we still have to get back to our group Akkadian study. We've been slacking on that.

WHY IS EVERYTHING IN GERMAN FUCK

>>22880468
You don't really know Latin or Greek unless you also know German, those are the rules

>>22874527
Autism keeps me going

>>22880492
It seems like 10% of my university's library is in German too.

>>22880468
You can't be a classicist without German desu

>>22880468
deutsche beßer bekannt als philologieskönige

i was thinking about learning latin, or ancient greek, recently due to interest in reading works originally written in them but im not sure which to peruse. In greek im interested in homer, and the bible. While in latin im interested mostly just interested in the Aeneid although im sure there is other stuff in both that i would enjoy.

>>22877978
Not saying you should care, just pointing out that 'he' isn't accurate. (And I don't use tiktok lol)

>>22880667
It is a deep rabbit hole, and in my opinion you shouldn't do just one (especially if you're interested in the Roman period, if you really like the middle ages Latin alone will suffice, or if you really like Athens then Greek will be enough)

>>22880667
Latin and then Greek
You can't really know Latin without Greek.

>>22880831
>You can't really know Latin without Greek.
Elaborate.

>>22880821
i thought about both but then i feel like it will just take me longer to be subpar at both. I guess if its a hobby though it doesnt matter as long as i can stay motivated learning is part of the fun.

>>22880366
Read "Hebrew is Greek".

>>22881039
Please don't go telling people to read the works of utter crackpots.

>>22880951
Not him, but I'm fuming right now. I grew up with Latin in high school then went back to it as an adult. After finally gaining some facility in it I now realize every single Roman author I want to read wrote in Greek.

>>22881051
You are a Greek in denial.

>>22874394
Well, it's all just words, they mean more or less the same thing. As >>22874465 said you have to read poetry to get real value out of language learning, otherwise it's just an intellectual exercise.

>>22881073
What?

>>22881092
Post your favorite building of all time. Make it classical to keep on thread theme.

Should I use Classical or Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin?

>>22881743
Is this not the third or so time you've asked this?
Just use whatever you want, they aren't that different.

>>22879839
in greek not english

>>22881898
general meaning is just the same fella, except you have more variety with the usages due to how participle heavy Greek is
I heard the man calling us
ἤκουσα τοῦ ἡμᾶς καλοῦντος ἀνδρός
there's also some common verbs which will employ it idiomatically like τυγχάνω, λανθάνω, etc..

>>22881743
Classical, because I said so.

>>22882009
it gets a lot more complicated than that and you know it

>>22882123
NTA, but once you get used to it it isn't that much worse, unless it's Thucydides. He not only loves them in indirect speech but also just in general. If Nikias were any more eloquent, I should not be able to understand him at all.

>>22881743
You should get studying and stop asking.

Latin learners, how do you usually use dictionaries? Is there some pop-up Latin dictionary somewhere that you use, or do you just copy-paste it into some dictionary site everytime?

>>22882286
https://www.dizionario-latino.com/ for me did and does most of the job, I speak Italian but there's also the english version, idk about its quality
sometimes I use wiktionary for vowel lengths and since I'm also reading Greek I find often quite useful to consult this Latin<->Greek dictionary http://lexica.linguax.com/nlm.php

>>22882123
Give examples that you can't understand and we'll help you

>>22881755
>they aren't that different
And that's exactly why it's so hard to choose, isn't it logical?
>>22882074
Counted.
>>22882244
I know the grammar, yet how the fuck would I get further if I don't fucking know how to read words?

>>22874394

>>22882505
How is it bait?

>>22882452
just learn classical, then learn church latin. Best of both worlds

>>22882452
I'm saying since you've been asking for so long now, just pick one at random and get studying. I promise it'll be more interesting than deliberating more. I promise there is no objectively "right" choice for all cases. Just get to it already.

I can't remember if it was here, but a couple or so months ago I remember reading someone saying something about a modern (~18th century I believe) figure who had a school exam in Greek and started writing in one dialect/voice but changed it midway through and still aced it. does anyone know this anectode and the figure himself?

at any rate I'm curious how many of you care about having that sort of ability or the ability to be able to recite hundreds of lines of classical poetry from memory. I think it would be fun, but I also think it could be a good way to help cement your knowledge of the material (in the case of remembering poetry) and of the language in general (in the case of being able to write proficiently).

>>22880252
>Greek anons do the same but act superior while doing so
and we are entitled to it

>>22882652
enoch powell. his biography goes into a lot of detail about his early years as a classicist.

>>22882827
thank you anon, exactly what i was looking for.

>>22874387
https://
goycord
gg/GwWCAuEg

>>22882516
>of both
I can use only one.
>>22882598
>there is no objectively "right" choice for all cases
It`s impossible, there must be one.
That bald dude I was watching yesterday nearly convinced me to use Classical but I`m still not fully sure as my profession kinda requires to use ecclesiastical and it also feels more natural.

>>22883613
>I can use only one
why

>>22883644
It`s just how accent works, you don`t switch it depending on whatever.

>>22883737
But that just isn't true. "Art dialects" exist in plenty of languages. Homeric Greek was an art language used only for performance. Your degree of fixation on this and the inflexibility in your thinking make me worry a little.

>>22884162
So which one should I pick and why?

>>22874394
You shouldn't have had unrealistic expectations to begin with. That's hard, I know, but there's not going to be anything you can do or learn in this world that's really going to be "satisfying" in the way your mind presents a prospect to be ("I'm going to learn all these languages and it's going to be awesome! I'm going to [...] and be satisfied!"). You'll likely find that once you manage drop the expectations, you can go back to your languages and reading etc. and it'll be enjoyable on its on terms, without the contrast with your ridiculously inflated expectations to turn you off from it.

>>22884171
manage (to*) drop, of course

>>22876747
Hahahae risum mihi adtulistis

>>22874595
Resistance to linguistically restored classical pronunciations of languages seems to just be a flare-up of anti-intellectual contrarianism, honestly.
>uh how can they know hahah duuh huh
Retards shouldn't form opinions about these things when they universally can't be bothered to actually do any research or try to understand anything.

>>22875901
i use this side by side with the actual text if I need clarification, but you should beware that they've raped the word order entirely for this

After some reflection, I will not make another language my new year's resolution. I have enough of those for now. What are your language-based (or not) resolutions, /clog/?

>>22884573
>I will not make another language my new year's resolution
can't say I blame you. at a certain point it becomes too time-consuming and, especially if you are studying harder languages (relative to your native language(s)), you will not be able to maintain your level across all languages. if you can manage it with your particular languages and the time available to you by all means, but there is a portion of polyglots who seem to more so be interested in the allure of the title of 'polyglot' and ignore the fact that they know maybe a few languages at a native/near-native level, a few to a moderate degree, and the rest at a very basic level. and if you can hardly do anything with your ability at that point, I see no reason in trying to maintain it.
>What are your language-based (or not) resolutions, /clog/?
I would like to really dedicate more of my spare time to studying Greek and Latin. I am already doing so in grad school, but I really want to deepen my abilities past what I am learning in school - in part because I'm a competitive person and want to excel beyond my peers, but also because I intend to find a career in classics and should know the material and the languages. I'm currently reading Plato's Crito and plan to read more of his corpus (Phaedo, Symposium, etc.) I'm also going through Virgil more thoroughly and would like to be able to recite some of his poems by heart. other than that I am trying to approach a basic fluency of French. my reading is better than my listening ability, but I have been making good improvements in the latter as of late.

>>22884573
Intermediary level French
Finish Logos and Athenaze and some other Greek books I find
In Latin, read the Aeneid, Metamorphoses, and some other works by the likes of Juvenal, Tacitus and so on
Also finish the Vulgate

>>22874394
Gallus gallinaceus, dum vertit stercorarium, offendit gemmam: Quid, inquiens, rem sic nitidam reperio?

>>22874394
What are those 5-6 languages?

>>22884573
Finish the Iliad (stalled in the middle of book 17 to read more French novels)
Get started on Plato
Find some meaning in life beyond just autopilot >>22884573

>>22874394
you should enjoy the learning process itself

>>22884573
Greek: read the Odyssey and the NT(already finished Matthew but re-reading as I usually do), see about starting with relevant pre-socratics as well and finally start reading Plato which I've been postponing from savouring perhaps for too long
Latin: not too sure, finish Cicero's book about gods for sure, maybe look into some other work of his, Ovid's metamorphoses too maybe will be the big next work to look into

I maintain that St Augustine's Confessions are a super underrated intermediate Latin pick. More of you should be reading them.

>>22884573
I have English, French, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Japanese, Mandarin, Classical Chinese. Maintaining these is a tall enough order.
My new year's resolution is to make it to the next one without doing anything that makes me want to off myself.

>>22884573
Get back to actually reading texts. I've taken a bit of a break from reading just to drill vocab since it hasn't been my strong suit, but I'm at the point where I really need to get back to it.

>>22884811
Swallow your pride and read and re-read Steadmans until you feel ready to ride without them. The point is to access these texts in the original, and the Steadmans provide the best fast-track to that. They are not meant to be used as a permanent "crutch": they are meant to make as smooth as possible the first reading so that the productive rereading can happen earlier. I don't know why Steadmans aren't mentioned more here.

How similar is modern Greek to Ancient Greek? Would you say that somebody who knows Ancient Greek can comprehend, say, 30-50% of what he reads in modern Greek, with no previous knowledge of modern Greek?

>>22874394
>where I can read books in their original 5-6 languages
No you can't.

>>22885575
>Would you say that somebody who knows Ancient Greek can comprehend, say, 30-50% of what he reads in modern Greek, with no previous knowledge of modern Greek?
I'd say so, I just opened el.wikipedia.org an was able to quickly find the random page link Τυχαίο λήμμα from AG τυχή and λῆμμα, then I got Φέλιξ Κούλοφ and I can tell he was a Kyrgiz politician from 2005 to 2007 after the revolution of tulipans(?), that he was born in Φρούνζε and studied(?) to be policeman
though the kind of material could make the difference and there's also modern words like καριέρα

WARNING: AUTISM

I checked out a book on Greek from my local library a while back but I ended up returning it halfway through during a declension-based emotional breakdown. I ended up finding a wheelock's latin book at a second hand store which I bought with trade credit (I have no real money). So now I'm learning latin, but I've been told I should learn Greek first and now I have a barne's and noble's gift card I could use to buy a Greek textbook and start working on that.

Is it ok to learn Latin and Greek at the same time? Can you do both? Idk what to do. Should I drop Latin and come back to it after Greek? Just keep going and learn Greek second?

>>22874394
thanks troon, in that case I finna quit trying to learn latin...omg already I can feel myself becoming less fascist, please tell discord it's working, fr fr no cap

Should I use Classical or Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin?

>>22885994
>Is it ok to learn Latin and Greek at the same time?
yeah
>Can you do both?
plenty of people do both. I do it both in college and on the side and I'm at the top of my class. not trying to be a braggard faggot - to be honest, it's clear that the other students I've been in classes with don't put in that much work, so it's not hard to know more than them - just saying that learning both at the same time doesn't necessarily harm your ability in one or the other. the only real concern is time: if you halve your study time between the two, you will obviously not progress as quickly as if you were to dedicate all of that time to just one of them.
>Should I drop Latin and come back to it after Greek? Just keep going and learn Greek second?
do what you want, maybe even experiment. if you have a legitimate reason to learn both that will sustain your motivation/drive to learn them, and you have enough time and want to study both at the same time, then do so. though there is something to be said about the motivation of progress and, of course *how* you study matters, but in general you will see yourself progress with one of the languages more quickly if you focus on it solely for some time. still, though, that doesn't mean it will be the most perfect means of study for you. try one way out for some time, maybe try another. if you try one way from the get-go and enjoy it, just keep doing things that way.

should i use attic or koine pronunciation of greek?

>22886024
>22886783
ΟΙ ΤΟΞΟΤΑΙ

>>22886783
Koine is entirely pointless, the choice is between Attic and modern, and I`d definitely stick with the modern as there`s an actual straight unbroken line from ancient Greek to modern Greek unlike with Latin.
>>22886024
Bump.

>>22884573
My new year's resolution is to stop posting on /lit/ entirely. Any dose of 4chan encourages the ugly superiority complex in me always threatening to surge back from my teenage years, and makes it difficult to relate to others in all sorts of other ways.

>>22886871
Modern pronunciation is completely shit for Ancient Greek. The consonants are okay, but iotacism makes speaking it unintelligible. You need to be able to distinguish at least some of those diphthongs.

>>22886871
yeah nah, not pronouncing a beta as "v"

>>22887723
>>22887494
Then use Attic, there`s literally zero reasons to choose Koine. It`s neither truly classical nor living, not even traditional for anybody besides some sectarians maybe, and nothing worth was ever written in it.
>>22886024
Bump.

>>22887740
you had me until
>nothing worth was ever written in it.

>>22887740
>and nothing worth was ever written in it.
bible? Diadochi history? eastern roman into byzantine history?

>>22887801
>bible
Irrelevant Roman propaganda, and the needed version is in Latin anyway.
>eastern roman into byzantine history
Learn Armenian if you`re really interested in these mutts.
>diadochi
Alexander himself spoke Attic, these are barely relevant.

greece before alexander is barely relevant

Greek pronunciation dichotomy:
>the language of Homer, Zeus, Heracles, and literally everybody decent vs. the language of mud Armenian-Syrian goblins and kikes on sticks
Latin pronunciation dichotomy:
>the language of Caesar and Tacitus, the language of our progenitors vs. the language of da Vinci and Charlemagne, the language of White man
Why is it so unfair?

>da vinci and charlemagne
barbarians and mutts

>>22887847
>>22887887
t. aboo al peepeep

Is it advisable to learn several languages at once? I've been working on Latin for a few months now but for undisclosed reasons I need to know German to a decent level by this time next year or so. Is it a good idea to do both at the same time or will that fuck me over in the long run?

>>22888216
It will not fuck you over. You just need a lot of time for it.

I'm getting back to my Latin learning experience.

>>22874790
heh.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but I'm looking for an English translation of Van die gheestelike kintsheyt Ihesu ghemoraliseeret (On the Spiritual Childhood of Jesus) by Gerard Leeu. I've been able to find books and publications that have written about the contents and subject matter of the book - but no direct translation. If anyone could help an anon out I'd appreciate it.

>>22884701
>muh figs
>muh god
>muh sinful babies

It may be good language practice, but I have zero interest in theology

>>22874635
how?
a flying car
flying is the present participle of fly (and flown is the past participle)

https://fass.open.ac.uk/classical-studies/learning-ancient-greek

Here Greek bros

>>22883737
Lots of people switch accents even within their native language depend on context. Do you think a Texan talks the same to his family and to his northern boss?

>>22884183
At least for me it's partly a practical thing- for me different phonologies feel like different "gears" I switch my mouth into, and it's hard for me to build myself a "gear" for something I can't hear fluent, native speech in.

>>22884573
I started this before the new year, but I want to be more consistent about it: I've decided that on Mondays and Fridays I don't use the Internet in English, so I have to practice any other language.

>>22885575
I've been told that the Koine of the New Testament is about as hard for modern Greeks as Chaucer is for modern Englishmen, though the fact that they study Ancient Greek in school must help.

>>22887723
Why not? It's how the Greeks themselves have been saying it for over a thousand years.

>>22889722
and they have been pronouncing it wrong for a thousand years

>>22889746
Wrong according to whom?

>>22889746
Þu sylf spricst Ænglisc swiþe gewæmmodlice

the correct pronunciation of a language is how it was pronounced during its golden age. Image if you went forward a thousand years and a bunch of niggers tried to tell you that ebonics was the correct pronunciation of english. I imagine that's what socrates et al would feel like if they went to greece today

>>22889795
Not english's golden age. English starting from shakesphere up until the introduction of niggers is the correct era of english pronunciation

>>22889812
So you're pronouncing English wrong because you say 'vain' and 'vane' the same, don't pronounce the 'h' in 'what', don't rhyme 'move' with 'love'...

>>22889824
I do all of those things and I look like this

>>22889837
So?

>>22889849
Checkmate Europhobe

>>22889853
I'm literally of British, Irish, and German descent myself. Stop trying to make this about race, it's not about race.

>>22889861
I'm talking about ethnicity and you're spazzing out against a white race instead. Examine yourself.

>>22889870
You were the one who brought race into it in the first place by insulting black people.

>>22889879
I never did that. I picked up replying to you and I think the other guy left

>>22889882
At any rate, pronunciation is like the literal definition of a social convention.

>>22889853
>>22889861
>>22889870
>>22889879
>>22889882
the fuck are you retards even on about?

Oh I see what you are saying, but it's up to you whether you take his remark as an insult. His point is that black people use ebonics in different forms depending on where they go.

That's a touchy subject because if you say that's insulting, then it means that you're either denying that they do this which would be absurd in a mass media culture where we all see it everyday, or it means that you find ebonics itself degenerated, which means you yourself find ebonics insulting. It's also touchy because black people developed ebonics by racial ingrouping. The way they speak is a direct result of their own racism.

>>22889824
both pronunciations are part of the english golden age and are both fine

>>22889905
You said, and I quote, "up until the introduction of niggers". There were African slaves in English-speaking colonies since at least the 17th century. Therefore, the golden age of correct English pronunciation was a narrow band from the late 16th century til sometime in the 17th, and you're speaking English degenerately because you don't pronounce it like someone from the 17th century.

AAVE is in some ways more archaic (ie more kino) than regular English

>>22889918
mass introduction and veneration of niggers occurred because the good guys lost ww2. So the 16th century until 1945 if you want a more precise timeline.

>>22889975
Most of the black population in America is descended from former slaves.

Should I use Classical or Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin?

>>22890156
should? idk
but Classical is of course the kino one
although it doesn't make sense with works produced in medieval times

>>22890195
>although it doesn't make sense with works produced in medieval times
Does vice versa do?

>>22890263
not really
people in the classical period obviously didn't speak a language that had undergone those sound changes

>>22890263
that makes even less sense

>>22890276
>>22890277
But Medieval and Renaissance people read their texts this way all along. All the 1500 years.

>>22890305
Ehh bros? How to counter this???

>>22890378
What's there to counter? Of course they could read it, it's the same language. I'm talking about aesthetically, I like to observe things like phonemic vowel length when reading ancient texts that likely had it.

>>22890403
So what to chose?

>>22890429
always classical
medieval Latin is basically Italian, ie cringe

>>22890468
Seems legit, especially if I'm going to learn the latter anyway. Though imagine being always corrected by my midwit uni teachers who don't know about the reconstruction.

>>22885575
30% probably
I'm Greek, with modern and katharevousa of the 1920s I can understand about half of ancient stuff I read
The biggest problem is that many words have changed and been replaced by others over time
Homeric is also harder than Attic, and late Attic like in Democritus(?) is pretty easy to understanf most of the time

>>22887494
Depends on the era. Read the wiki, pronounciation started changimg already from the classical period and by hellenistic times pronounciation was closest to modern.
It'd be a bit like pronouncing modern greek with archaic pronounciation. Which would work I guess, but why? Waste of time

>>22890555
The phonology in classical, even ancient, seems easier than modern. I feel like phonology was traded for easier morphology.

>>22889713
We don't study ancient greek in any serious manner and we don't retain anything. We read the classics but ofc with modern pronounciation
Koine is extremely easy to understand. I've read katharevousa translations of Thucydides from 1920 that were harder lol
>>22889746
Pronounciation changes over time bucko, it's natural
>>22890593
It's easier for non native speakers to memorize I guess, but for me (and I guess most other natives) it's fine so i cant give an input
Also I find ancient morphology easier. Modern greek feels a bit robotic when it comes to conveying meaning

>>22890633
>Also I find ancient morphology easier. Modern greek feels a bit robotic when it comes to conveying meaning
What do you mean? Dropping a separate dative seems like it would be easier. I think I may understand what you mean by 'robotic' though.

>>22874650
>What do if there are literally just none in my country? Aside from just using the books.
Not him, but you'll be in the same struggle that some medieval scholars or the conquistadors in the americas. Just follow the lections of some fiable book.
Pic unrelated.

>>22890657
Christ that l'meme is on point

>>22890652
Unironically can't put it into words. Meaning was more concise in ancient texts, to put it this way. Katharevousa also had this to an extent
Easier to convey abstractions without having to write 4000 words

>>22889918
He obviously means the beginning of their mass cultural influence which began around the 1920s (outside of the South where it had existed since their introduction), ramped up around the 40s or 50s, and has gotten worse every year since.

>>22889806
aftos stin vasileis vro we speak real greek descended from homer hellada athanati

Someone learning French to listen to Maghrebi rap would form a fair comparison to someone learning Ancient Greek to read Da Jesus Book

>>22887847
Name a single thing Greece after Alexander has done. Got ethnically replaced by Slavs, Albanians and Armenians?

>>22889806
Socrates was during Greece's decline. Golden ages were Mycenaean and Hellenistic.
Socrates spoke the ebonics of his time.

>>22890727
Homeric dialect is made up thoughbeit, nobody spoke it.
Cheer up buddy, let go of the resentment.

>>22890759
Maghrebi rap is useful if you go to France.
Gotta blend in somehow

>>22890808
Greek golden age depends. Athenophiles will say it was the 4th-5th BC. Dorichads will say it is in the 3rd century in the wake of Alexander.

>but Macedonians are Slav speakers now!
Old Macedonia was Doric.

>>22890827
That's an old interpretation tbqh, foundations for all we see in the classical period were present in Mycenaean times, and Alexander revitalized this spirit. Inbetween there's just an echo of the past, and a couple of technological innovations.

>>22890874
Also overspecialization in how to make good statuary. But that's an aesthetics thing

>>22890874
The Mycenaeans conquered Greece, but under Alexander the Greeks conquered the world. Alexander is exponentially more relevant. There are some pretty cool stories from the earlier period though, and material artifacts.

>>22890885
Alexander would be monumental if he didn't die like a retard. Because of this I generally hold the two periods as equal in importance.

Griffin Warrior was also genotyped recently, a year ago.

>>22890913
(by this I mean he didn't last long enough, amd Romans ruined it later on)

>>22890913
I think it's for the best. He was going to rebuild the middle east.

>>22890874
Military/political peak =/= cultural peak, and the latter is what's relevant for studying languages.

>>22890979
Materialist cope

>>22890994
What?? What on earth does my statement have to do with materialism one way or the other?

>>22890499
Though what's wrong if Italian has retained that original Frankish norm. I'm still not sure.

>>22890994
This.

>>22890468
Nah, Ecclesiastical is a spelling pronunciation. Before the spelling pronunciation was introduced, late Latin was pronounced in something that actually sounded basically like Italian (not just Latin read with Italian letter values), at least in Italy.

>>22890768
before alexander
>irrelevant political and cultural backwater confined to the mainland and the aegean
after alexander
>political and cultural hegemon that controls the known world from greece to egypt to bactria to india
>will continue to rule and be a cultural bastion of the near east in glorious romes name for many centuries to come

>>22890593
All the vowel distinctions seem finicky, and a three-way voiced-tenuis-aspirated distinction is tricky too, not to mention pitch accent.

LLPSI is a meme method. Modern Greek is not similar at all to ancient Greek. Asuka is best girl.

>>22890727
Every language changes in pronunciation over time.

>>22891229
The objectively correct answer is Kaworu.

Should i learn Attic or Koine pronunciation of Greek

>>22891220
>is a spelling pronunciation
Absolutely irregular soft CE/CI and TI are still here though.
And though indeed these and the vowel length are all what divides Classical and Ecclesiastical but both are so traditional that changing them to the proper ones causes total change in perception.
>like Italian
Rather like Spanish with all its fricatives.

>>22891283
>Absolutely irregular soft CE/CI and TI are still here though.
The letters don't have a single value, but which value they have is fully predictable by position.
>And though indeed these and the vowel length are all what divides Classical and Ecclesiastical
Also silent H, fricative V and PH, monophthong AE and OE...

>>22891269
See >>22886871
>>22890156
Maybe it's better to ask, "should I pronounce C before E, I, and AE as /ts/ or as /k/ and TI as /tsj/ or as /ti/?"
>>22891293
>silent H
Only since the 20th century, generally it was pronounced normally.
>PH, monophthong AE and OE
Occurred already in the middle Classical period.
>fricative V
Might be an approximant as well.
>>22891283
>fricatives
Meant approximants, sorry.

>>22891303
>Only since the 20th century, generally it was pronounced normally.
The dropping of it goes back to Roman times, as evidenced by graffiti.

>>22891316
And then it was restored for the Carolingian standard, the same as full /m/ in VM instead of nasalization.

>>22891324
Wouldn't a lot of Romance speakers have had trouble with pronouncing it since their native language had no /h/, even if it was in principle part of the standard?

>>22884648
i dont get it

>>22891331
They likely exactly had, that's why most of Italians dropped it again in the end. Slavs and Germans did retain it though.
>>22891303
Also, a thing favoring Ecclesiastical much is that we anyway use not THE`ACTVAL`ROMAN`SCRIPT but Carolingian minuscule introduced alongside the pronunciation.

>>22891344
The letter forms are the same, but aren't they perfectly isomorphic system? (Also I thought our print capitals are basically the same as the ones in Roman inscriptions even if they used different forms in day-to-day handwriting?)

>>22891389
>our print capitals are basically the same as the ones in Roman inscriptions
Only the uppercase, lowercase hadn't existed before the Carolingian Renaissance.

>>22891418
...yes, I just said 'capitals'.

I wish there was a version of LLPSI for old norse
You could just rip a lot of the plots from the sagas and the LLPSI readers would be simple because you could just include sagas in them
The Roma Aeterna equivalent would probably end with stuff from the prose and poetic edda

>>22891883
Oh also you would have prose reworkings of some of the scaldic poems but in Roma Aeterna you'd have some of the full poems

New book I got, how the do I read something this illegible as a latin newfag?

>>22891303
I WANT TO DECIDE IT THIS YEAR BROS!!!!
HOW MUST I PRONOUNCE THIS FUCKING "C"????

>>22889698
I managed to do it well with Pāli, where pretty much every "speaker" of the languages ignores most of its phonetics. You don't necessarily get all of the specific vowel qualities etc. correct, but that doesn't matter all that much, especially when there are no native speakers. I'd personally recommend you go with the classical pronunciation and train yourself at reading out loud quicker and quicker to get the phonetics down, correcting yourself when you stumble. That's what I generally do, anyway.

>>22886974
Are you sure you're not just actually superior, anon?

>>22889706
That's actually a pretty good idea.

>>22890931
Yes, he was going to turn Greece and the whole middle east into an open-air miscegenation zoo. The conquest was cool, so he actually died at the optimal moment to be remembered in the optimal light.

>>22891921
This actually looks pretty legible for blackletter. I was expecting it to be much worse before I expanded your image.

>>22892322
I say you do K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlKvv83qFhQ

>>22892461
>do K.
Why?

>>22892461
>This actually looks pretty legible for blackletter
Read it to me, because I have never seen latin script that is harder to read than this

Has anyone here learned Classical Arabic and can compare it in difficulty to Greek or Latin?

>>22892511
WHYYYYYY????!!!!

Who's up for Church Slavonic?

>>22892878
Why?

>>22874650
>Also, how do people normally make sure that the one teaching them in those classes isn't just some clueless retard, but actually has a good grasp on the language? I've been traumatized by my nation's private tutoring on foreign languages, every fucking time it's some B1-B2 nigger teaching you, and they just make shit up on the spot when they see something they don't know.
The main benefit of a language teacher is to actually hear the language spoken with correct native phonology and to get immediate feedback on your pronunciation and wording, hence language teachers who are not actual native speakers are useless most of the time

>>22892888
A cool language if you're into slavic literary traditions and history. Or if you are a slav yourself

>>22888414
Man, these challenges are so tough.

Can someone help me with this passage? What does optatum modify, Neptunum or Conubium? Also, is the verb in 'fieri potest' impersonal or was its subject simply dropped? Thanks in advance.

>>22893387
I think conubium makes the most sense, albeit grammatically speaking both could in principle hold I guess
>is the verb in 'fieri potest' impersonal or was its subject simply dropped?
the latter, you can think about it as having an implicit 'id' subject, not unlike english 'it' in phrases like "it can't be that....", although english can't drop it

>>22888979
Sure. That's your prerogative. It's also of immense literary value even to non-christians as the first probing psychological autobiography, but again, your call.

εὐτυχοῖτ' ἐν τῷ νέῳ ἔτει ξυνπαλαιογλωσσομαθηταί!

Favorite Greek textbook?

Should I pronounce C before E, I, and AE as /ts/ or as /k/ and TI as /tsi/ or as /ti/?

>>22894893
Use the one that is easier for you to pronunciate.

>>22895178
Both are equally easy, aren't these sounds present in like all languages in the world.
Though, the former is perceived as the correct one in my country but it's known as factually incorrect in the academics.

why does modern French have a lot of verbs with re- which has lost its meaning? e.g., remplir, from none of the dictionaries I've seen, has one of its meanings as 'to refill', simply either 'to fill' or 'to fulfill'. I have seen other examples and I am sure others still exist. did this happen in vulgar Latin? is it common among romance languages?

>be clueless anon
>lie down and feel like reading some 17th century English prose
>mfw there are random sentences of latin everywhere

>>22894893
>>22895209
THEY ARE BOTH EQUALLY LEGIT HOW THE FUCK CAN I CHOOSE ONE????
TELL ME

>>22895473
if you're really autistic pick the restored classical. If you really like church pick ecclesiastical. Simple as.

>>22895209
Then have both in mind and use one or other according to what are you reading or whom are you talking, I mean, with a italian or a priest use the ecclesiastical, and the restituta for the others.
For me is easier the eclessiastical, so I started to use that one even when I'm of those who learnt using the pronuntiatio restituta.
>incorrect in the academics.
for late antiquity and medieval texts reading aloud using the italian one wouldn't be wrong.

>>22895480
>like church
I dislike church and whatever, I keep calling it Ecclesiastical just for simplicity, in fact it's just my country's traditional pronunciation for mostly secular texts (and it was such actually everywhere, it's a myth Latin was tied to the church).
>really autistic
That's a point too, nobody knows that it's the true pronunciation and it's usually perceived as just incorrect.
>>22895489
>late antiquity
What are exact dates of that palatalization btw, do we know?
>for the others
Not really. Is the reconstruction really that accepted in the west? I remember another anon said the western lawyers who use Latin don't know about the reconstruction as well.
>is easier
That's partly why I can't fully accept it, I feel like I speak rustic when speaking this way.

>>22895473
If this is elaborate trolling, then good job.
If you are serious, then I'm concerned for you. There are plenty of situations in which none of multiple variations on something is clearly superior. There are plenty of situations in which familiarity with multiple conflicting systems is beneficial or necessary.
I wonder how you manage to learn multiple languages with the inflexible attitude you've been demonstrating here. I wonder how you manage to write off a large number of responses saying the same thing from different anons who have managed to learn Latin, some quite well, because of your frankly weird insistence that one must always use only one standard for a dead language (of which the periods and styles abound.)
The easy answer to all of this is that this alarming behavior is either exaggerated or entirely acted, and that you're trolling. Because I have a nervous disposition, even towards people I haven't met and never will, I'll assume this to be the case and not check the replies to this post. Either way, please get help.

>>22895511
Man, just do whatever you want. The words are not magic. How long have you been asking this same question?

>>22895511
>I feel like I speak rustic when speaking this way.
Holy autismo
You sound like you really care about prestige and what other people think of you, so just use Italian ecclesiastical pronunciation since that's what the Hollywood movies use.

>>22895543
>of which the periods and styles abound
It's not true retard. There was only two periods, the Roman one, pretty much the same since the very divergence of Celto-Italic family from the rest up to the fall of Rome, and the Medieval one, confirmed to be absolutely the same since the Carolingian Renaissance to this day, and between them I'm choosing.
>>22895549
Before I'll get a decent answer.
>>22895554
Makes sense, it seems this one is accepted as the real Latin all around the world now.

>>22895565
Your understanding of the history of Latin seems very fixed and based off of some very problematic assumptions. If you think you know so much better then why can't you just decide for yourself? You're really annoying and I hope you stop posting fast after you finally decide on this question, the least interesting question ever asked here.

>>22895624
Stop whining retard and answer.

should i pronounce θ and φ as t and p or th and ph

>>22895867
>>22894893
asking a question about a language you will soon quit learning is useless.

>>22895867
The latter so that people will understand you, you will keep it straight in your head, and because you won't correctly pronounce θ and φ. They are not simply t and p but ejectives.

>>22896193
Will people understand me if I'll pronounce C before E and I as /k/ instead of /ts/?

>>22895936
it's probably the same troll as months ago, constantly asking stupid questions
I guess it's free bumps, but still, stop replying to him

>>22895867
th and ph

Do you guys know if the Golden Dawn has a newspaper? 3 years with Attic and I want to start learning demotic, I find chud writing very engaging to read.
Any other chud authors/sites in Greek? Any writing about the Byzantines, Ataturk, Frankokratia the Greek war of independence or the Turkokratia? I would also find this engaging to read since I either know the history pretty well or want to learn more. The more schizo, the better. Any reccs generally?
Know this isn't really clg but I have a feeling some of you might know about this. Thanks.

Why do chuds hate on Kalergi for wanting to turn Europeans into mixed race mutts but think Alexander was the best guy to ever exist when he wanted to do the same with Greeks and Persians?

just don't reply to the bioleninist circus clown, it's that easy

NOVUM
>>22897182
>>22897182
>>22897182