/lit/ - Literature

>>22787275
One way to approach this question is by considering the concept of free will. God created us with the ability to make choices, to love Him willingly rather than being mere automatons. Free will inherently includes the possibility of choosing disobedience and sin. It is through this free will that our love for God becomes meaningful, as genuine love involves choice.

>>22787275
Because he is not the godhead. He is a demiurge. The godhead can only create things that are good.

>>22787277
dubs of truth. checked

>>22787277
but something something free will doesn't actually exist something something causality

>>22787302
Based

>>22787277
It's your free choice to love God, but if you don't, you rot in hell for all eternity. No pressure.

>>22787366
hmmmmmmmmm
free will exist to some extent

God created the universe for his amusement . It’s more interesting the way it is

>>22787275
Listen Raiden, Rose wants to know why you haven't answered her question about Kumonga.

>>22787277
I don't believe in free will but I believe in a just and good God.

>>22787302
Then how did the Godhead create the demiurge if it's evil?

>>22787614
This, if it was a free choice then there shouldn't be eternal torture attached to decision to reject God. That's like me having a gun to your head saying you have the free choice to suck my cock or not but if you don't then I blow out your brains.

>>22787275
Morality is socially constructed. Your morals do not govern the flow of rivers or the laws of nature. They govern you and only you. Once you realise that you'll know that there is no such thing as sin. How do you know that God doesn't want you to "sin"? Who told you that? Why do you trust them?

>>22787275
Man's nature is not inherently sinful, his fallen nature is. We were created pure, but free to fall. Our first father fell. Simple

>>22787614
Freedom isn't arbitrary. It's the power to choose what's right

>>22787729
Anon you make it sound like God is using coercion

>>22787787
Why would god be generous anon?

What would get from it?

>>22787793
high fives and a couple of beers with the bros

>>22787785
>Freedom isn't arbitrary. It's the power to choose what's right.
Do you believe that there exist men who do not have the power to choose what is right?

>>22787829
It's paradoxical. We can't do what is right without both the cooperation of our own will and the action of God.

>>22787719
Emanations: he proceeded inevitably and necessarily from the existence of the Monad.

>>22787834
If freedom consists of man having the power to choose what is right,
and if God gave men freedom,
then it follows that all men have the power to choose what is right.

If there exists one man who does not have the power to choose what is right,
then either God did not give men freedom,
or freedom doesn't consist of man having the power to choose what is right.

Which one do you wish to backpedal on?

>>22787864
We're all born with freedom, but we can give that away through sin. And in practice, all of us do, to a certain extent. At that point, the only thing that can revive us and restore us to freedom is divine grace.

>>22787912
You have a very eccentric understanding of freedom.

>>22787275
We are inclined towards goodness and away from sin, but we have the ability to sin.
The islamic view on fitra makes a lot of sense.

>>22787785
>Freedom isn't arbitrary. It's the power to choose what's right
Then creating creatures with free will doesn't automatically entail that they need to be able to sin, since perfectly free creatures would always choose correctly.

>>22787275
Would you want to watch reruns of Friends for all of eternity?

>>22787277
The existence of free will does not require humans to have a predisposition to use it to do evil, you haven't offered anything resembling an answer to the question about man's wicked inclination.

>>22787275

>>22787614
>it's your choice not to eat food but if you dont, you die
>wtf why has god done this?!

>>22787798
Lol

>>22788326
>>22788326
Lifting more weights makes you stronger. A predisposition towards evil makes the redemption greater. Predisposition aren't required for free will, but they are a component of reality. If you don't like having certain predispositions there are, as I'm sure you're aware, religions and traditions to reconcile them.

>>22787614
most people who dont love God dont even believe in any consequences for not doing so. the only exception being literal satanists and jews

>>22788273
The power is not the same as its exercise. When Adam and Eve were first created or when the angels were first created they had the choice whether or not to exercise that power. The demons refused to exercise that power, Adam and Eve failed to exercise it.

>>22788515
But surely freedom is not purely voluntaristic. Perfect freedom would entail always acting correctly, would it not?

>>22787729
Except God as a monotheistic creator is naturally the source of all life. You were never an independent entity but more like a patient on life support. You're obviously free to crawl out of your hospice bed and unplug yourself, but there will be obvious consequences.

>>22788440
>it's your choice not to give me all your money but if you don't, you die
>no I'm not responsible for putting you into this situation

>>22787912
you mean freedom to do Good? love God

>>22787614
False: The afterlife in the Christian faith to be one with god forevermore. The only alternative is the dark, cold alone of Sheol.

>>22788504
The existence of those consequences doesn't depend on people believing in them. If one were to choose to believe in God, one would also have to choose to believe that said God created hell, where one is sent to if one chooses to not love God.

>>22788440
This but unironically and people don't always have the choice to eat.

>>22789053
People do always have the choice between evil and good.

>>22787277
What a narcissist.

>>22789064
The threat of eternal punishment does undermine the "meaningful love" aspect a little.

>>22789088
It's not as Demiurgic as that. God is the source of all that is good; if you decide you don't want to be around him, you won't have to be, with all that implies.

>>22787275
>>22787302
>>22788326
>>22787614
>>22787729
Because you don't even understand what "good" is. Good isn't something you can magically become, good is character, it has to be built. You have to continuously choose good. Likewise, you do not understand evil. God is. God is Truth. God is the alpha and omega. God IS. Period. Thus, God's Will is the only thing that is, it's what you were created for. To stray from God's Will, to stray from Truth, is to become a lie, to become nothing. If you don't have God, if your whole existence is a lie, then eternity will be torment. All of the appetites you indulge without abandon will haunt you forever, you will never be sated forever. You will never find peace forever. It will all be a result of your own character, the evil spirit YOU cultivated in this life. You aren't cast into hell, hell is something you create for yourself. A lie cannot abide with Truth.

>>22789816
God bless you but chill bro

>You will never find peace forever

it's not like that people will find salvation at some point

https://youtu.be/AWiju6K4Bl0?si=r_CzI_69DvdVVwC1

>>22787275
Religion is man made

>>22790107
That image doesn’t damage religion’s veracity, it just means penal substitution sucks in 99% of its formulations.

>>22787275
How about reading the Good Book and thinking about what you read? Any questions left should be directed to God first.

>>22787614
I think people who believe in eternal hell have some kind of mental deficit. They're so cheeky to talk about it but if you could actually begin to grasp what an eternal hell would be like you realize how comically evil it is. I'd respect them more if they admitted that that would make God an uncaring ultimate dictator that just sets the rules, and we're just cowering maggots. Like imagine how many Asians there are going to be in hell, most of them aren't Christian. It's going to be vast swaths of Chinese people getting raped in hell forever. What kind of a ridiculous cosmic nightmare is that? It's retarded.
>but they haven't had the chance to know Gods word so he'll forgive them
They're not baptized which for most of Christian history was absolutely necessary. Unless we can just change this stuff now whenever we want. No? We can't you say? Ok so a sea of tortured asians for billions of years it is. Nice. Yes we can change that stuff? Ok let's just say everyone should be a good person then. Great, we're going to do a lot of retconning then though, while we're at it lets change whatever else we want.

I'm just not willing to believe in the cosmic nightmare reality.
>but it's true anon, this semitic ethnic religion mixed with greek thought is the ultimate truth, it just is ok
Well that sucks then. That's terrible. A million times worse than modern nihilism or anything else I can think of. Stop calling it the Good News, it is actually extremely unfortunate news that eternal total bodily suffering is even a possibility.

Also it's very obvious that a loving being would not respect your "choice" to self damnation, that's why we don't like suicide. We disrespect their choice so they can have a better outcome.

>>22787275
Most things deemed by the church(not god, but man) to be sin are just things that are pleasurable but not necessarily wrong or even bad for a person or society if done in moderation and in the proper way. They are also usually things that aren't conducive to keeping the parishoners(cattle) feeling beholden to the various churches and their teachings and "help".

As such, and to sum it up for the TL;dr types:
sin isn't real, just enjoy life and try not to be too much of a dick

>>22787275
Because we were made in God's image.

>>22788607
literally the same as mom why did you birth me lol
Is it so insane to think maybe God wants you to stop being a self loathing idiot so you are ABLE to reach the kingdom of Heaven?

>why doesnt the video game creator make the video game consequence-less?

this is your logic

>>22788462
You still didn't answer the question. Why not? Why is it so hard for you to actually address this specific topic?

>>22787787
The concept of hell is coercive. If you choose not to worship him, you go to hell
Sounds coercive

>>22790218
But you choose to go to Hell yourself, just like you choose have your store burned down when you refuse to pay protection money. It's all your own choice. Nobody forced you to make that choice.

>>22790221
so God is like a protection racket? That's what gangs do anon.

>>22790226
And gangs do not interfere with your free will. If you couldn't choose to reject their protection, you would never appreciate what they offer you.

>>22790257
But it's not good what they're doing, was my point.

>>22790260
Of course it's good. Your store burning down is bad, your store not burning down is good. Why would you choose evil when you can choose good?

>>22790263
They've created the bad outcome too, so obviously they're bad. But I guess you're trolling.

>>22790271
No, you've created the bad outcome by rejecting the good one. You had a choice. You always have a choice.

>>22789816
How do you mesh these together?
>God's Will is the only thing that is
>To stray from God's Will
How can I "stray away from" to something that doesn't exist?
Can I stray away from existence? Into what?
Do you realize how dumb this sounds?

You wouldn't have to do all these acrobatics for two millennia if only your roman ancestors didn't decide to prop up pretty new religion with ties to "old and well established" torah. Literally all problems solved. Oh, and also if you left heterodoxy alone instead of sucking Constantine cock and establishing orthodoxy. It worked for a while, but look at what it became.

Oh and also - one little Nag Hammadi find and the whole facade crumbles. Justice truly served cold.

>>22790160
>I think people who believe in eternal hell have some kind of mental deficit.
Look at trauma and complex PTSD and it all fits perfectly into place.
Original sin? Traumatize a child and he'll believe that his self is wrong.
He'll than live in a compulsive swing from a salvation fantasy to a total damnation and back. Instead of actually living a life.

You're not wrong - either christianity just festered on the wound of some widespread trauma or (/and) fostered it with damnation bs.

It was just a perfect storm of hebrews picking up dualism from persians and then romans creating frankenstein pf new religion of heterodox christians (that was arguably sometimes pretty humanistic, though not without its flaws) and spiteful, vengeful local monolatry of Yahve. The funny thing was that this early christianity was exactly the NO answer to Yahve monolatry.

Yet somehow the sect in Rome city managed to crossbreed uncrossbreedable.

>>22787711
A just and good god wouldn't have given my grandma a stroke a week before she was gonna retire and let her ex husband who was a total pathologically fucked cunt keep living, I don't need to prove myself to retarded god he needs to prove himself to me

>>22790355
God did that to teach you a lesson. You have rejected this lesson and chosen bitterness rather than praising Him.

>>22790360
God is giving you a lesson through me - go and give everything you own to the poor. Sell your house and give the money to the poor. Give your clothes to the poor.
After that go and talk about Jesus Christ on the streets.
Come on. You don't want to keep God waiting.

>>22790378
Why does it anger you so much to be exposed as being lesser than God? Why are you so haughty? Read Job. He also suffered great losses and you may find comfort and wisdom in how he overcame it.

>>22787711
kek'd

>>22787277
god is a higher being, so god doesnt need humans to love him

>>22790221
>>But you choose to go to Hell yourself
False. It was determined by God.

>>22790394
No, God gave you a choice, and of your own free will you chose to reject Him and His love. You chose Hell yourself. You didn't have to go there.

>>22790406
True, you rejected grace by your will
God never forced you to go there

>>22790392
don't you want to be loved, anon?

>>22790283
That's illogical and you're misusing language. The dichotomy itself is the problem here. A loving father would NOT let his child choose between a suicide pill and a cupcake. He would probably not want suicide pills anywhere around his child at all because the risk is actual.
I can understand God testing us but only if it's purpose is instructive. A father might let his child choose between unhealthy food and healthy food because he wants him to be able to navigate the world alone. But a suicide pill, on a normal human life level, is too ultimate, it would not be good to let a child choose between those things.
So on a dimension higher I can see punishment as a good thing. But if the punishment is eternal then it loses it's end, because the person has no chance to learn from his mistake.
Please reply with something other than 'it's your choice' and address what I'm trying to say.

>>22790442
God is more than just a father, God is also A JUDGE, one whose JUDGEMENT must be PERFECT. A perfectly just judge MUST judge you for your choices no matter how much He loves you, and if you refuse the grace that is freely offered you, Hell is the only just punishment for you.

>>22790450
So his justice is more powerful than his love? Also perfect justice in my mind would not be eternal consequences, it would be a system that allows for more chances. There's no shortage of time for that. Getting tortured for a billion years should do the trick.
I don't see how any of that follows. A perfect judge would have a better system. I just thought of one now., where you just check in on them once in a while and see if they want to play nice yet.
>Hell (eternal) is the only punishment for you
Why? You're just stating things,

>>22790392
Don't you like when dogs like you?

>>22790468
>So his justice is more powerful than his love?
God has given you the choise between justice and love. You choose which you will face.
>perfect justice in my mind
Your mind is not perfect. God's is. Therefore you are wrong. The punishment must be eternal because your sins are eternal, they are crimes against God, each sin is infinite.
>A perfect judge would have a better system
This is the best of all possible systems. Your sinful nature merely wants to avoid judgement, but your pride prevents you from humbling yourself before God and asking for His forgiveness.
>Why?
Because you have rejected God, who is all goodness. Without Him, only Hell is left.

>>22790475
>God has given you the choise between justice and love. You choose which you will face.
You've regressed, the premise was that offering that choice is doesn't seem right (because now you're equating justice with eternal hell and love with heaven)
>Your mind is not perfect. God's is....This is the best of all possible systems
All this amounts to is "I am right, therefore you are wrong." Because of course, you do not know God's mind, so calling on it's authority is kind of pointless. If I could know an ultimate God's mind I wouldn't question it, but that's because it would probably make sense itself.
>The punishment must be eternal because your sins are eternal, they are crimes against God, each sin is infinite.
You have no idea what that means. Crimes or sins seem to have degrees of severity, not equality in being infinite. If they were all infinite there wouldn't be degrees of them. But they do have degrees, a child can do something pretty bad lets say like stealing, but it's not as bad as murder. Everyone can tell that. If they were both infinite they'd be equal right?
>Your sinful nature merely wants to avoid judgement, but your pride prevents you from humbling yourself before God and asking for His forgiveness.
It's not a bad thing to want to avoid unjust cruel punishment, which is what I'm saying it would be if it was the case. Which I also just don't think it is.

>>22790563
You overestimate yourself

>>22790190
It's more like
>why do I have to suck the video game dev's cock just to have a pleasant video game experience?
What a power tripping cunt

>>22790578
That's not saying anything. Just say that you find it annoying to actually answer questions about the dogmas you're regurgitating.

>>22790382
So you choose to reject this lesson. You choose bitterness rather than praising Him.

>>22790468
Besides the fact that he's projecting his issues, he's caught in christian schizofrenia of loving all embracing Father of original Jesus and judgemental yahve that was anthithetic to Father.

>>22790603
you just have issues with God ways because you don't see it clearly, just trust in God and it will get better, He is omnibenevolent after all

>>22790716
You clearly are a bad advocate for yahve. But what could you expect from a petty local thunder deity.

>>22790725
you are clearly bitter

>>22790442
>That's illogical and you're misusing language. The dichotomy itself is the problem here. A loving father would NOT let his child choose between a suicide pill and a cupcake

you clearly don't understand God at all anon, he is not literally a loving father unless you are his son

>>22787275
We live in a fallen world. I love Saint Augustine but Augustinian genetic original sin isn't anywhere in the Bible and it's a place where the Eastern Church gets more right.

We don't see God telling Adam that his nature is cursed. Indeed, we continue to see the Bible refer to man as "little below the angles," and "fearfully and wonderfully made." Rather, the fall of man's innocence, replicated for each person in the passage to adulthood, results in God saying "cursed is the ground because of you."

The Hebrew isn't "knowledge of good and evil," but rather "good and bad." This should be compared with the first creation story where God created through divine speech instead of forming from dead Earth and breathing into it.

The two creation stories contradict each other. In the first, the Earth "puts forth grass" on Day 3. In the second, there are no plants before man is made, only potential waiting for rains. People trying to merge these two stories miss the point. In the first, man and woman are both created at the same time in an image of God. The things are created on Earth/heaven in order of how much freedom of motion they have. Man is the crown in being rational and most self-determining.

So the two stories tell us different things. The Logos of the world as divine speech and man as a mirror for this, free and given the duty to rule. The second man as living dirt who immediately disobeys his maker and begins revaluing things for himself. The fall is the result of man taking on the role of God for himself.

The rest of the story is how God allows man to mature such that he can freely choose God and achieve divine union with him. "God became man that man might become God." Christ is a bridge, the Spirit becomes our spirit.

People err by focusing too much on individuals. This is the biggest problem is with Reformed theology, it is hyper individualistic. But the Bible has a very corporate vision for how many develops and is saved, saved through being part of an organic Body of Christ.

Our own limited free will is a fractal microcosm of historical mankind, who loses his innocence and must collectively come to freely choose God. Hence all th dialectical churn and schism in the Church. Our whole world is full of fractal recurrence. Our race is like a rebellious adolescent at this point in history.

Check Romans 7, it's a powerful formulation of positive, reflexive freedom, freedom as unity and self determination. Only the Logos can ressurect us to personhood from death in disorder, as w are ruled by instinct, desire, and circumstance. Plato had a similar glimpse of freedom. See pic related, but the Patristics get this more right.

>>22790869
That was a good read, thank you brother, God bless you

>>22790160
But here you are thinking of it as some sort of human law thing. Something like:
>Asians don't get the message or Christ, thus they don't do x,y,a, thus Hell.
But the whole message of the Bible is how God goes from talking to individuals, to a corporate people, to all mankind. This broadening scope is paired with a reverse ordering of how we know God, first as a voice from on high, then as another man, finally from an indwelling Spirit.

The Bible is analogical and has anagogic meaning. The Fall happens for all children. We go through all the historical steps of Egypt in our lives. Christ leads us from slavery in Egypt to freedom, but we backslide like Israel constantly, being subject to purgation and development.

I Peter 4 talks of the Gospel being preached to the dead. Romans 1 talks of men knowing God from nature, and later or righteous gentiles following the God's law stamped on their hearts. Revelations has people being awoken BEFORE judgement. The fact is, we really don't know the formula of salvation, that isn't the point.

People who claim to know all Native Americans and Asians for centuries go to Hell or that babies go to Hell simply spin tales for their own comfort. I agree, they make God seem wicked, and they do so due to their own inability to deal with mystery. They make God by their own standards.

This is a step man must go through historically I would think. Bad ideas have to circulate so they man, in free search, can strike them down. Christ himself talks about those who know their guilt being more subject to punishment than those who sin from mere error.

Christ is always against legalism. God can see men's hearts. I don't think any in Hell will be surprised that they have been chosen for it. They choose to reject God and they will choose it on the Day of Judgement as well.

>>22790891
>God can see men's hearts

True, and intention too

>>22790891
BTW, I am not sure if making salvation into a strict binary makes sense. Christ talks of the man who is saved because he built a strong house versus the one who is saved, but only as one is saved from a fire, losing everything he has.

The Catholics, of course, have their Scriptures supporting Purgatory. I think the lines they quote do indeed show something not totally binary about salvation, but the doctrine of Purgatory adds a lot of speculation to this. To be fair though, I have gone to Catholic Churches and they don't really teach it the way the Medieval church thought of it, there is a lot of nuance.

In Revelations, we see some Saints given places of honor close to God. We see the elders near the throne, the 144,000 who rule with Christ, etc.

I tend to think of it like this: if you are mostly sinful, only possessing a small core of faith and repentance, then very little of you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ says the Kingdom of Heaven is within us, but our share can vary depending on who we choose to become.

If we "put on the new man," and reach for divine union in this life, we can come we we are. If we do little, much of our being cannot come to union with God. If we do not change at all, then we are like th wedding guest who does not arrive dressed for the wedding and is thrown out.

When the rich man is in Hell begging for a drink from the Patriarchs and the beggar Lazarus, I take this to be the lack of the Water of Life. Those cut off from God see it as the torment it is, but they are so corrupted that none of their being can draw near to union.

>>22787275
>Why didn't God make us perfect?
Aquinas explain it somewhere in the Summa. Go read it.

>>22790728
you are

>>22790925
>>22790891
>>22790869
Good posts. The image of the man saved by his strong foundation and the man saved from a house fire who loses all he has really resonated with me.

>>22790581
Well, why do you think you deserve a pleasant video game experience in the first place?

>>22787275
Freedom. Evil is part of the package.

>>22790925
Careful not to conflate the "kingdom of heaven" with the "kingdom of God". They're too different entities. The kingdom of heaven will be an actual, physical, literal reality after tribulation; the kingdom of God is the one within us. This is the one where Jesus tells you not to sit in the highest room as you enter, but choose a spot in the lowest room and wait to see if someone comes to take you to the higher.

>>22791841
two* different

>>22791794
I mean, we were forced to play it

Unless you subscribe to the esoteric idea that our pre-incarnate souls chose it ahead of time and got memory-wiped

>>22790716
Stop assuming beliefs. I don't have issues with Gods ways, I have issues with what you think are Gods ways. you're acting like we both already know what God's ways are. It's like if your doctrine said something ridiculous like "if you're born missing an arm you will go to hell." I'm just rejecting something which is patently absurd, eternal hell.
And why do you have the balls to say you understand Gods ways. I think you are latched onto the Roman church and adopt the absolute superiority complex they have. You're read and heard these doctrines mentioned, and the men who invented them, as these absolute Titans of Genius. You've just been bamboozled because the Church is so big and shiny. This stuff Does. Not. Make. Sense. I don't care that Thomas Aquinas wrote it, it doesn't seem right.
>Trust in God
No, you're asking me to trust in an institution and dogma. Not God. Those are different things.
I think this is a moot point, because someone who picks whichever dogmatic religion they do is not being rational. Your belief comes first, as a choice. That's why you can say something like what you are "Oh it doesn't make sense? oh well that's how it is, keep trusting us."
Just think for a second how that is to someone outside of it.
>>22790815
It's an analogy.
>>22790891
Holy smokes I do not like this religion. I wish I was born a Jap so I wouldn't be worried at all about whether or not this was all true. I want to scream at my ancestors to not listen to the Apocryphal self deprecating anti human Jewish nightmare faith.

Thanks for giving me these replies guys. I think I just kind of hate Christianity though.

>>22792247
>I think I just kind of hate Christianity though.
You may not be incorrect to have distaste for these formulations of it, but they are very crude, exoteric expositions of Christianity that leave a lot to be desired

I would read more by actual theologians and mystics before dismissing the entire religion, it would be regrettable to let a bunch of online LARPers who probably don’t even really believe any of it ruin a millennia-spanning tradition in its entirety for you

>>22790869
>The Hebrew isn't "knowledge of good and evil," but rather "good and bad." This should be compared with the first creation story where God created through divine speech instead of forming from dead Earth and breathing into it.
>The two creation stories contradict each other.
Wait, what two creation stories are you talking about? I thought there was only Genesis and the Garden of Eden.

>>22792519
There are two creation stories in Genesis; the one in Genesis 1, and the one in Genesis 2

They have different characteristics and describe things being created in a different order; exegetes for thousands of years have attempted to explain this in a number of ways, some believing that the second creation story happens after the first, or that the first describes the creation of the eternal, archetypical cosmos with the second then being about the formation of the lower, "earthly" counterpart

Because overcoming sinful nature is a greater redemption and act of love than just being a saint in paradise.. You become stronger by lifting more weight. You become more good by transmuting your evil.

>>22792247
It's true that man runs the risk of worshipping his finite conception of God, not the truly transcendent and infinite God.

But you seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The fact that man tends to be sinful and corrupt the image of the divine is just more evidence that we must strive to give up our heart of stone and put on the new man, to love with the love of God.

But you're asking people to put very complex things into short posts, so don't expect great answers. Likewise, you wouldn't ask the average person on the street who believes that "quantum chromodynamics is true," to explain it to you. For some reason though, there is this expectation that anyone who is member of a religion, no matter their level of spiritual development, should be able to present their tradition, and to do so in some concise and easy to define way. It's the opposite of how we'd expect to get good answers on any other topic really.

Pic related is a good book, and it covers Rumi (Islam) and Dogen (Zen) as well.

>>22792582
Exactly. My personal take is that it reveals the semiotic nature of the Trinity.

In the first, God the Father speaks being into ordered existence through the divine Word/Logos. This story is revealing the relation between the Father/ground/object and the Word/sign through which it is known. Here, man is good; male and female mankind is in the image of God, seeing the Word and having authority in the world.

The second story has latent potentiality for life within the Earth being released by rain, water, a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The world is born in this rain, but only after man is created. The world is barren at first because there is no man to experience the world.

Instead of speaking man into existence with divine Logos this time, man is shaped from Earth and God's breath, wind (Ruach) also the word for Spirit, animates man. Here we see the semiotic relation between the Ground/Father and the Interpretant/Ātman/Spirit.

And it is no surprise that rebellion comes when we shift our focus from Logos to the interpretant. For it is the interpretant who, losing their innocence, begins to proclaim signs "good and bad," thus making themselves the measure of these things.

>>22787275
>this nigga doesn't understand concupiscence