/lit/ - Literature

>>22770293
ok lads when are we gonna decipher Linear A? It can't be that hard, with the luminaries of /clg/ working in cooperation surely we can knock it out within a few threads.

>>22770310
That would be so fucking based, akin to but far better than taking Shia LaBeouf's gay flag.

>>22770310
We need to find something which is dual language in Greek and linear A akin to what the Rosetta stone was for hieroglyphs. It is very easy to decipher languages if you have the actual resources and understanding already available. Its the only thing stopping them.

The greeks and romans had terrible taste in cocks (small bushy and uncircumcised.) I can't imagine their other opinions were therefore worth much more

>>22770724
I’m absolutely loving this gimmick for you anon, I hope to see it in every thread about classical literature for the foreseeable future.

>>22770293
Best resource to study extinct languages?

Hi /clg/. How do I add macrons to Latin wikipedia? Has anyone made a program to do it automatically? I only found a website that needs you to copypaste texts manually. I would like to read the latin wiki with macrons directly displayed.

>>22771155
No professional uses macrons. Many texts don't even have them. By the time I got to third semester Latin, we stopped using them. Focus on reading your textbook, not Wikipedia. You'll outgrow macrons soon enough.

>>22771177
Not even unaccented longs and ablative long a's? I am always scared of new words I've never seen before with unmarked vowels. What if I learn it wrong? I am probably paranoid.

>>22768960
Why do you care whether there are women in the same classroom as you?
>>22770976
>doesn't want to interact with women
>doesn't want to give up pussy
You can't have it both ways, anon, unless you're satisfied with only fucking trans guys.

>>22771340
They might give me cooties which are icky.

>>22771530
Look out, I'm gonna give you cooties over your modem!

Pure boy love with Solon!

Maybe this is weird but are there any good bands in Greek and Latin? I feel like I could remember all this vocabulary more if I heard it sung. Hoson zeis phainou just ain't enough lads

>>22771707
must be a metaphor

>>22771721
nigger-brained zoomer

>>22771721
Well, there's a bunch of hymns and such in Latin, some of which you may be familiar with in translation. O Come All Ye Faithful, for example, is an English translations of Adeste Fideles.

>>22771183
Correct. No macrons. Proficient Latin readers canfigureitoutwithcontext, just like you were able to add spaces in your mind to that block of text. You'll be fine. But focus on learning the basics and reading real Latin. Everything else is a distraction from the goal of competency.

>>22772169
What counts as real Latin?

>>22772173
Authentic texts from ancient/medieval world. Not Winnie Ille Pooh, not a reader, not a textbook. Latin written by people fluent in Latin, native and daily speakers.
If you open an OCT or Teubner you will find no English whatsoever anywhere in it. The whole book will be in Latin, preface and footnotes included. You will not find any macrons either.
See pic related. Real Latin, not watered down or filtered through another language.

>>22772238
>Authentic texts from ancient/medieval world.
Why do you include medieval but not Renaissance or modern? All were written by non-native speakers of Classical Latin.
>Not Winnie Ille Pooh, not a reader, not a textbook.
What about modern texts falling outside of those genres? What about ancient and medieval texts intended for pedagogical purposes, like colloquies?
>Latin written by people fluent in Latin, native and daily speakers.
Certainly there are at least a few such people alive today.
>The whole book will be in Latin, preface and footnotes included. You will not find any macrons either.
Though you will find apices in some Roman inscriptions.

>>22772386
nta it's just a matter of how the literary tradition came down to us, macrons are fine for texts meant for beginners but because they fundamentally aren't how the texts came down to us, the standard is to keep writing without them, including Latin wikipedia(wiktionary is another matter)
Greek e.g is partly different in that you have kinda the opposite, the literary tradition used the whole apparatus of accents, spirits, etc.... and thus someone writing modern Attic ought to use them as a standard

>>22772075
Great news for me—I sure hope you’re right. I’m still open to more info from anons on this. High school Latin class had too many.

>>22772713
In my ancient Greek class in college I was initially one of two girls (out of three students total) but then the other girl dropped out. In my Latin class it was majority boys overall but I can't remember the exact figure. That was first year.

>>22771721
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cZyv7UgOOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsZLeGblXlA

>>22770293
Probably not the place to shill this but pic related is a very nice dual language book of English and Classical Japanese. The problem is that it doesn’t include the pinyin underneath the scribbles so I couldn’t phonetically follow along.

>>22773163
Absolutely the place to shill this, even though you're probably the only one to learn Classical Japanese here.
Pretty crazy that stuff like this gets a dual language edition with English, when even most European medieval works hardly ever do.

>>22773210
Weeb market boost, lol. We need more chivalry larpers so we can get English translations of all the chansons.

It seems like the main CC guy hasn't been around recently but I'll post this in case anyone can offer insights on it. This is chosen more or less randomly out of the early sacrificial songs, just trying to get a sense of where my understanding is at and how much I'm missing. Are there particular points that are unclear to well-versed speakers? I can make some kind of pseudo-sense of most of the verses but only in a very vague way.

天命有晋,穆穆明明。我其夙夜,祗事上灵。常于时假,迄用其成。于荐玄牡,进夕其牲。崇德作乐,神祗是听。

I had a sad undergrad fling with a girl who was the only *person* in her Greek course. It was a large top 20 school. Classics enrollment has tanked generally.

>>22773210
I know Classical Japanese though I have to be honest and say it isn't what speaks to me most. I don't have any useful advice for learning it, sorry. Moreover I'm skeptical about the utility of such an edition without furigana. Are you sure that's actually the classical text, by the way? It says "modern translation by Kawabata." A trilingual text would be busy indeed...

>>22773483
Here I am. I've just been clearing my head since I dislike getting into the habit of checking devices for anything. Will have a look but it's nice to see someone else yuefu posting.

>>22773512
Yes, you are correct. I misread the preface and was under the assumption that Donald Keene translated the story directly from the original text. Apparently, it seems Mr Keene translated the story first and then Kawabata redid what he wrote so the left hand side is his writing which was tweaked.

>>22773520
>since I dislike getting into the habit of checking devices for anything
Sounds like a good policy.
>it's nice to see someone else yuefu posting
Don't expect much, I'm a sub-dilettante. But I do have a genuine interest in the genre.

>>22773021
Thanks anonette. You’re presumably a giga-autist so you’re ok.

>>22773693
Now I just have to figure out how much autism is required to make them tolerable. Maybe only spergs should reproduce.

>>22773693
Well, I'm literally diagnosed with autism, if that counts.

>>22773483
First, Classical Chinese will always take a moment to read. A former friend elegantly remarked that one rarely understands the first line of a text until one's read the last. Practice is vital because it really isn't like much else in this world.
Second, this is not a really difficult poem, but not one I'd assign to a first year. I can see how it would be fuzzy without knowledge of ritual and government. Here's a quick literal translation:
>The Mandate of Heaven belongs to [causes to have] Jin, profound and illustrious! Day and night we serve the high spirits. We always take my leave at the proper time, until the ritual implements are ready. When sacrificing ruddy bulls, we bring them in the night before. Resplendent and virtuous, we make music, and the spirits respectfully hear this.
The "we" could also be an I.
The features that might trip up Modern Chinese speakers here are the causative use of 有 and the nominal use of 用. Both of these are a bit clearer with Japanese reading, but really are just quirks of CC.

>>22773587
I see. It's probably a fine book

>>22773483
Also, I figure you probably know Mandarin. Please try to switch to Traditional Characters in CC. It'll make life easier later. May I ask what drew you to this poem specifically?

>>22773693
Just read through the last thread. It sounds like you haven't gone to university yet. Frankly, you sound like a defensive young guy. Just study what you enjoy and you'll be surrounded with other people equally passionate, and those less passionate will self-select out. You will have differences but you will learn to manage them due to common ground. Loosen up and stop being so territorial: it's unattractive and bad for your health.

Also, there are plenty of bilingual troubadours. It gives me no pleasure to say this, but just learn French.

>>22773765
My French is solid actually, but for some of the more random chansons the modern French "translation" is just a summary, not line-for-line. I just thought it would be funny to see them published in schlocky popularizing editions like that Japanese one.

>>22773709
Thank you very much, that helps a lot. The 有 usage was clear enough from context although I'm still not sure I fully understand the mechanism, but "implements" for 用 is one I would never have gotten. Iirc the intro to this section says the songs are for sacrifices occurring in the evening or morning, could that affect the reading of some of the lines about day/night/time?

>>22773722
>Also, I figure you probably know Mandarin
Not really, but I know some of the absolute basics and I have a little bit of vocab.
>Please try to switch to Traditional Characters in CC. It'll make life easier later
Ok, I switched my ctext to the traditional version. What's the difference? Seems like most of the characters are the same.
>May I ask what drew you to this poem specifically?
As I said, just a random pick. I had been dipping my toes into the Yuefu shiji a while back, and today I was reading about Mesopotamian temple hymns which reminded me of it. Ancient sacred/liturgical/ritual poetry is fascinating to me.

>>22773855
>Iirc the intro to this section says the songs are for sacrifices occurring in the evening or morning, could that affect the reading of some of the lines about day/night/time?
Not as far as I see. It's clear enough that it's at night from the poem.

>What's the difference? Seems like most of the characters are the same.
Most texts of the beaten path will only be available in Traditional.
Moreover, it's better to disfavor PRC-ized editions when one can: one never knows what might have been done to them. I say this as someone who lived, studied, and worked in the PRC and has fond memories of it. Also, traditional radicals make character composition clearer. You should train your eye to recognize radicals in different arrangements because variants will pop up all the time. Simplified is not actually cognitively "simpler" for this reason: it's just faster to write. Studies if I recall correctly have also shown that HK/Taiwan kids learn to read faster, though there are other factors at play there too.

>>22773855
Skimmed over where you said you didn't really know Mandarin. Definitely use Traditional then. Simplified is a post-50s PRC-only thing. Japan has its own (less drastic) character simplifications called Shinjitai, but it's common to see classical texts and even some family names printed in Kyujitai (Japanese Traditional.) It may seem little now, but there are actually many Chinese who can't or won't read Traditional at all.
Keep posting these poems, anon. Sounds like you'll find some fascinating stuff there.

>>22773693
>anonette
it's a troon

>>22773704
Nice, I got Ruthsatz
>>22773722
>You will have differences but you will learn to manage them due to common ground.
I have aspergers^2. My social skills are fine but I still don’t do much with people.
>territorial
This isn’t really it. I want people in the classes—plenty of people.
>it's unattractive
Both guys and girls have been very romantically aggressive towards me.
>>22774026
Dubs = it’s a troon

>>22774139
I said it's an unattractive quality, not that you're unattractive. There's a big difference. Wait til you get a little older.

>>22773942
>Definitely use Traditional then
Ok, I'll try to do that wherever possible.
>Keep posting these poems, anon. Sounds like you'll find some fascinating stuff there.
Thank you for the encouragement. Don't wanna bother you with too many questions but I'm just curious, is the Yuefu shiji basically all anonymous or do significant parts of it come from known authors, e.g. in the Tang era?

>>22774164
I’ve had the quality for a while, and I’m not so sure I’d care if it’s a bit unattractive. There are more important things to me. Autism ftw.

>>22774173
It's various authors, many anonymous, from pre-Classical to the Tang. You should learn 陌上桑 first, since it's one that even kids learn as a ditty. I'll also reproduce here a Yuefu I like by Han Yu, an essayist I adore but a mediocre poet at best, save for this one.
>去年落一牙,今年落一齒,俄然落六七,落勢殊未已。餘存皆動搖,盡落應始止。憶初落一時,但念豁可恥。及至落二三,始憂衰即死。每一將落時,懍懍恆在己。叉牙妨食物,顛倒怯漱水。終焉舍我落,意與崩山比。今來落既熟,見落空相似。餘存二十餘,次第知落矣。倘常歲落一,自足支兩紀。如其落並空,與漸亦同指。人言齒之落,壽命理難恃。我言生有涯,長短俱死爾。人言齒之豁,左右驚諦視。我言莊周雲,木雁各有喜。語訛默固好,嚼廢軟還美。因歌遂成詩,持用詫妻子。

>>22774187
Got it, so you're just a blissful autist. That's an enviable way to live, even, so disregard what I said before. There are many types of obsession, and mine is of the manic sort that hurts badly. You are lucky.

>>22771340
Anon, for most of history, any man in an intellectual field would see 0 women at work, then come home to his wife.

I finished my introductory greek textbook. What are some good texts to move on to now? Am I ready for Plato?

>>22774345
If your goal is to read Plato, you can get right to Plato with Steadman or Loeb editions as crutches. Those will likely keep you more engaged.
If not, Xenophon's Anabasis.

>>22771721
>>22771727
This μελῳδία be bussin fr fr no cap

>>22774403
Not that anon but how many words should I know?

>>22774437
I don't know. If you can read and it feels comfortable, then you can keep doing that. If you need aids (electronic, Steadman, etc) to read then you can keep doing that. The only way there will ever be a concrete number is if that's a requirement for a class you're in.

>>22774448
Can you give me a rough estimate for how many words I should know to read Plato without frequent recourse to a dictionary?

>>22774345
Read the Parmenides dialogue. You're ready for gnosis.

Ἄναξ Ἀπόλλων, ἐλθὲ σὺν Παιήονι,
χρημάτισόν μοι, περὶ ὧν ἀξιῶ, κύριε.

>>22774456
People use 2,000 as the magic number but I don't believe it. If you can read Athenaze cover to cover you're probably more than good. If you read Plato like a novel without other textual tools you're doing it wrong anyway

>>22774470
Thanks

would it be wrong to consider the τ' in οἷός τ' εἰμί to be a remnant of τε's generalizing use sometimes found in Homer (and perhaps Hesiod, though I haven't really read any of his works in Greek)? I haven't read than many different Greek authors at this point, but in post-Homeric authors I do not believe I have seen τε used in a generalizing sense (except, if I'm understanding it correctly, the aforementioned phrase). and would it then be fair to call it pleonastic? as the οἷος itself gives the phrase a general/indefinite sense. maybe I'm rarted and gay but I have just been thinking about it lately. pic unrelated.

>>22774623
as is often the case, I probably should've just checked Smyth first. he writes:
>Homer often, and Herodotus sometimes, adds τέ to relative pronouns and conjunctions introducing subordinate clauses, which are usually postpositive. ... This untranslatable τέ is probably connective (not indefinite), and belongs to the whole clause. It has the effect of showing that its clause corresponds in some way to the preceding clause. ... ὧστε, οἷός τε became common.

>>22774470
With 2000 words you are barely above an A2, you need >5k to reach C1.

>>22773942
>It may seem little now, but there are actually many Chinese who can't or won't read Traditional at all.
And on the other hand I know at least one Hong Konger who, while generally pretty smart and a language nerd, has trouble with reading simplified characters. Another friend of mine, from Taiwan, says she can read them but they just feel illiterate.

>>22774026
At this point I don't think there's any possible circumstance under which someone could claim to be a woman on 4Chan, or post a picture of a woman on 4Chan, without having someone say "it's a troon".

>>22774437
n+1 where n is the number you know at any given time

let's not get into a big jiantizi vs fantizi debate but:

>>22773942
>but there are actually many Chinese who can't or won't read Traditional at all.
is this anecdotal? I really haven't noticed this through interacting with (educated) Chinese people, while everything in their school system is in simplified, traditional definitely isn't rejected or unknown. Many restaurant names and other names will be written in traditional in the PRC, and it's used in a variety of other contexts to give a more formal or old-fashioned atmosphere
I've had some mainlanders ask me "why is your CC textbook in traditional" but they have no issues reading it

>>22773885
>Simplified is not actually cognitively "simpler" for this reason: it's just faster to write.
yeah - its origin is in shorthand/informal simplifications, that actually date back thousands of years
in this rubbing of a Later Han text (De Crespigny, 2017, 383), you can see that 於 is simplified to 于 consistently, and I expect there are some other non-standard forms (didn't look in depth at the text)

De Crespigny, Rafe. Fire over Luoyang: A History of the Later Han Dynasty, 23-220 AD / by Rafe de Crespigny. Leiden, [Netherlands]; Brill, 2017.

>>22774437
if you can read the text and understand 95% (this includes morphological differences, e.g. recognizing that ᾰ̓νέγνων is the aorist of ἀναγιγνώσκω and not a completely different word).
Otherwise, you will read at a snail's pace and look up definitions, the root of X, parsing the syntax etc.

>>22774245
Yes, and? For most of history half of our children died before their fifth birthday. I don't see how "for most of history" is a relevant argument.

Found an interlinear Aeneid at an antique store this week. Is it a good way to get into reading classics in their native language? I want to get into Latin and Greek but I have no clue how to break ground on it

>>22776063
No but its better than nothing
get a textbook

>>22774345
Cyropaedia. It mixes Plato-style Socratic dialogue and descriptions of feasts, battles, diplomacy etc. like the Anabasis has. You could also try the Memorabilia. I recommend these two instead of the Anabasis because if you're interested in Plato you'll probably find them more interesting and interest level is the most important thing.
Try dipping your toes into an easier dialogue like Meno or Euthyphro also. If you're totally lost, retreat and come back later once you have more Xenophon under your belt.

>>22774437
Can you read [target text], understand 95% and get the sense of other words through context and occasionally have to go to LSJ/commentary? If so you're good.

>>22776067
I have a textbook or two and worked through exercises a few years ago. Did the full Duolingo course on Latin, too. But I still found that I couldn't really understand exactly what the classics were saying.

>duolingo
lmao

>>22775837
I’m jealous of those in history, just as you are presumably jealous of how boomer’s got houses for cheap.

>>22776162
What's so great about only being around other men? What are you, gay?

>>22776147
Latin is very unlike modern languages. You will need an comprehensive, well-paced introduction to it beyond what the Duolingo format can provide. See the FAQ for effective textbooks.

>>22775834
Anecdotal from having lived in the PRC. The phenomenon of decorative traditional characters you describe is real and growing, and educated Chinese can certainly read Traditional; however for much of the 老百姓 it's hopelessly difficult. A good analogue might be Montaigne's orthography against Modern French.
You're certainly right about plenty of Simplified characters having their origins in ancient shorthand or variants. That said, I am against printing Classical Chinese texts in Simplified: I think it creates another layer of ambiguity, like modernizing the orthography of older texts while leaving other parts intact in any language. In Modern Mandarin I'm utterly indifferent to the issue.

>>22775759
Yes, and A2s should be beginning to dip into native texts.

>>22776435
>That said, I am against printing Classical Chinese texts in Simplified: I think it creates another layer of ambiguity, like modernizing the orthography of older texts while leaving other parts intact in any language.
absolutely, the characters that it merges together might not be a big deal in Mandarin where most words are disyllabic but in CC where almost everything is monosyllabic it's just a PITA

>>22776448
Yep. Even Japanese editions of classical texts will use Kyujitai. PRC editions are slowly beginning to do the same, thank heavens.

>>22775835
>e.g. recognizing that ᾰ̓νέγνων is the aorist of ἀναγιγνώσκω and not a completely different word
Anyone have advice for this? Is it literally just committing the principle parts of a verb to memory and not being lazy?
I feel extra stupid when reading Latin and not realizing that tulit is the perfect of fert

>>22776495
>committing the principle parts of a verb to memory and not being lazy
yes, kinda, as well as recognizing patterns e.g in this case reduplication + isk appearing typically only in the present root

Finally started studying latin with pic related. Only 3 hours in and it's obvious that this book is fucking retarded. How has anyone ever shilled this?

>>22776589
the grammatical training this book gives you is necessary for appreciate literature. a native speaker of English cannot automatically appreciate nor understand Shakespeare

>>22771818
>Gestant puellæ viscera
>They carry the entrails of the girl
Venite, A-do-re-mus

>>22776601
You need practice with the archaic language, but explicit grammatical explanations won't help that much.

>>22776638
I disagree wholeheartedly. Latin's case system requires the reader to fundamentally understand how the parts of the sentence work, which is something most people nowadays don't have a good grasp on. If you understand what subjects, direct and indirect objects, gerundives, finite and infinite forms of verbs, and participles are then you can skip that I suppose, but it's not like it's just there to pad the length of the book or something.

>>22776666
Nice quads, but a lot of books do consider most cases irrelevant for the English native learning Latin. Plenty of Latin students won't have seen the idea of an ablative or locative in their textbooks, and they're kind of glossed over instead.

>>22776666
I meant in reference to Shakespeare, but I also think that for Latin explicit understanding of the rules is less important than building intuition.

>>22776601
The grammar isn't even explained well

>>22776676
>Plenty of Latin students won't have seen the idea of an ablative or locative in their textbooks
List one (1) Latin textbook that does this.

Please, not this shite again.

>>22776416
I’m straight

>>22776638
The only concession I would make is that it is better to do the LLPSI inpoot route first but sooner or later you will have to do the grammar. Even the ancients did it this way. You get a Greek slave to teach your kid how to converse in Greek correctly and then you send him off to Athens to learn the grammar so he can analyze Greek literature and pass judgement on its merits and/or defects.

>>22776706
and some kids cant wrap their heads around the subjunctive no matter how many different explanations are given. i was able to get it the first time around as a 12 year old in middle school spanish class. sorry bro but you got filtered.

>>22776908
So what's so great about only having other men around?

Desistite scribere de discenda lingua, pathici, ac incipite scribere de lingua, vel saltem Latine de nugis. Qua iit ille qui narraverat Dua de Lupa?

>>22776937
That's not what I mean. Another thing fucked in wheelocks is that it doesn't even give you the latin words for ablative or accusative for example. So if I want to write my grammar notes in latine I have to Google everything while reading this shit book.

>>22777012
> Qua
Scilicet quo. Dicite si cetera menda videtis.

>>22776435
>Latin is very unlike modern languages
I don't think Latin is different from very inflected modern languages, with complex morphology and I thinking in Polish, for example.
And I agree, Duolingo is not a good method, in general, and especially for languages with many declensions in particular.

>>22772386
>umm akshually there are som exceptions to your advice
so what. they are few and between, just ignore them and focus on the old stuff. the older it is the closer it is to the real deal. shut your mouth and open your ears to the advice of people more knowledgeable than you

Egyptian is rearranging the structure of my brain. It's fun to learn but I think the hieroglyphs are causing irreversible neurological effects.

>>22777281
>and I thinking in Polish
I wanted to say the same
I haven't studied Latin that much but it feels almost like a calque of Polish (actually vice versa but I'm speaking from my perspective as Polish native speaker). Many sentences can be translated almost word-to-word with the same cases and even some expressions are the same.
Ancient Greek also feels very similar, but it's more exotic because it has pitch accent and some complex grammar features.

>>22777313
>Egyptian is rearranging the structure of my brain.
That happens with any language you learn. You may ascend beyond homo sapiens if you can think in the same system that the ancient egyptian high priests used

>>22777316
>>22777281
Latin syntax in practice ends up being fairly different from most modern highly inflected languages. There is really no way to it other than formal learning and practice.

Adiuvate me, sodales.
Heri ad vicum quendam perveni. Qui cum parvus humilisque esset, tamen mihi placuit, nam Museum Historiae Naturalis habebat plenum dinosaurorum aliorum animalium praehistoricorum.
Parvum quoque Gymnasium invenitur illo in vico. Itaque Museo viso, gymnasium visitavi.
Ecce autem res miserrima.
Vir quidam aderat qui dixit se esse "gymnasii ducem" (wtf) et, nescio qua de causa, me aggressus est. Ut paucis verbis dicam, ab illo expulsus sum e gymnasio.
Ego non tantum turbatus sed etiam iratus rursus in gymnasium intrare constitui ut virum illum oppugnarem. Nunc autem cum grege meo adii, qui ex tribus strenuis amicis constat.
Sed –o factum malum– denuo devictus sum. Nescio quid faciam ut virum illum vincam. In grege meo tria monstrula sunt: charmander, pidgey et kakuna. Estne grex debilis? Adiuvate me sodales, et dicite mihi, quomodo Brock devincere possim?

Adiuvate me, sodales.
Heri ad vicum quendam perveni. Qui cum parvus humilisque esset, tamen mihi placuit, nam Museum Historiae Naturalis habebat plenum dinosaurorum aliorumque animalium praehistoricorum.
Parvum quoque Gymnasium invenitur illo in vico. Itaque Museo viso, gymnasium visitavi.
Ecce autem res miserrima.
Vir quidam aderat qui dixit se esse "gymnasii ducem" (wtf) et, nescio qua de causa, me aggressus est. Ut paucis verbis dicam, ab illo expulsus sum e gymnasio.
Ego non tantum turbatus sed etiam iratus rursus in gymnasium intrare constitui ut virum illum oppugnarem. Nunc autem cum grege meo adii, qui ex tribus strenuis amicis constat.
Sed –o factum malum– denuo devictus sum. Nescio quid faciam ut virum illum vincam. In grege meo tria monstrula sunt: charmander, pidgey et kakuna. Estne grex debilis? Adiuvate me sodales, et dicite mihi, quomodo Brock devincere possim?

>>22773512
My alma mater, I still take classes part-time, is a school with a supposedly respected Classics department, and it's a very respected school in general. I even encountered a fellow student in this thread. I wonder if he is still around. We never met up. I just remembered him for the first time in over a year. Anyway, enrollment in language courses is extremely low, and the only popular classes are stupid gen-eds, like Classical Mythology and Ancient Sports. I am probably the last generation. I watched an interview with a respected scholar before he died in 1990. He was disappointed with academia (esp. humanities) and thought a new system would replace it. I think that time is now.

>>22778471
>I watched an interview with a respected scholar before he died in 1990. He was disappointed with academia (esp. humanities) and thought a new system would replace it
who and link

>>22778471
My sense is that as one ages blind faith in one's elders to know what they're doing gives way to blind faith in the young to fix one's mess. Bad systems can continue for a long time

>>22777011
If you have to ask this, you might be gay. Women’s male friends are typically gay.

>>22777879
Bene fecisti, deceptus sum usque ad finem cum scriberes nomina monstrularum.

>>22778912
...but I'm a woman?

Guys how do I write "We're all going to make it" in latin?

>>22780142
Omnēs Vigēbimus, by my translation. Literally means "we all will thrive/flourish/be honored/live"

>>22780142
I mean it's so broad in its idiomatic sense of "success" that you could translate it in many ways with different nuances
quaevis impetrabimus
beati erimus omnes
dii nobis propitii erunt
and similar

>>22780398
I'd just go with vivamus, because of the Catullus ref, but let us live probably doesn't have enough oomf for modern /fit/

>>22780413
That was my original inclination honestly, but vigere has more of a variety of meanings that all line up with what we mean by "make it". The omnes is discardable, obviously, but I think it's nice.

After a bit under a year of studying, I'm almost done with my first Greek book. I dived in immediately after finishing my grammar textbook and doing a little bit of Plato.
Initially it was very hard, had to constantly look up vocabulary, turns of speech, rarer forms, etc. but by this point I can read for page after page without stopping, mostly picking up unknown words through context.
A few pieces of advice: don't use Anki, I wasted way too much time making flashcards when I could have been reading, and try reading an entire section before looking at any dictionary entries. Oftentimes you will understand a sentence or two later which will shed light on an earlier one.
Stick with it bros.

>>22780068
Nvm then. You just don’t get it.

>>22780068
Ywnbaw.

How would you say "update" in Latin? As in, new info you give about an issue.

>>22780953
maybe like aliquem certiorem facere ....

Any Classical Armenian anons? Or Syriac, Ge'ez, Old Church Slavonic..these Eastern Christian languages seem under discussed here. What are you reading rn? Anyone reading medieval Greek stuff too, tell us what you're reading. Hell, even classical Arabic anons.

>>22771177
Can corroborate that, although macra are still useful (especially for the 4th declension which I hate with a passion, and for really internalizing the vocab so that you can compose poetry properly).

>>22776601
That's not true. I'll admit that you get a much fuller appreciation for literature through the grammatical training, but if you're not a retard you can understand most of Shakespeare as a native English speaker.

>>22776676
That is a really bad textbook then. I can understand maybe glossing over the locative for beginners but you absolutely need to understand the ablative (and preferably some knowledge of the cases that merged into it) to get a good grasp of latin.

>>22776937
I wish that I had learned the subjunctive in my Spanish class when I was 12. We taught Spanish in the slowest way possible at my (public) school, starting in middle school. It took until I was 17 until we were introduced to it. It wasn't hard but so few people actually figured it out.

>>22781096
You know how certain people can't understand hypotheticals? they take it literally. Imagine teaching the subjunctive to them, let alone nested clauses that require coordination.

>>22781096
>>22781338
For what it's worth, the vast majority of Spanish speakers don't even know that their language has a subjunctive mood. It only really shows up in Legal Spansih.

>>22781343
In burgerland, you hear "if i was rich" all the time. in frogland, they want to simplify conjugations because memorizing endings is too hard, even in the age of digital spellcheck.

>>22781359
>In burgerland, you hear "if i was rich" all the time
English allows for indicative and realis hypotheticals so this isn't incorrect, it's just lacking some kind of statement of subjunctivity ("I feel like if I was rich...")

>>22781090
>for beginners
It doesn't really make sense to gloss over entire cases for beginners. The reason why they do it is because nobody is going to ever expect you to compose or translate independently, so the overall standard of taught Latin has declined.

>>22781386
if you was speaking the truth, i would of clapped

I just wish we had sanskritists more active in here. What resources are best for that?

>>22781409
You make a good point. Recognizing the locative is one of my weak points and occasionally trips me up in my Livy class, almost certainly due to this sort of attitude.

>>22781359
I've heard that in spoken french most of the endings aren't pronounced anyway.

>>22781439
That's the main argument although for at least 300 years that has been the case, yet foreigners had no problem with orthography, but now natives can't do it. Something must've changed.

>>22781424
I think it's largely due to composition dropping out of most courses. The locative for example isn't hard to introduce to English speakers (alibi is probably one of the most commonly recognized latin loan words) and makes other loan word correlatives make sense if you can use it (ibidem), not to mention you're going to need most of those cases for understanding Latin correlatives. There's no way you're learning comp in the style of Caesar let alone Cicero if that's the basic expectation.

>>22781478
yet more reminders of how far standards have fallen. The Iliad textbook I used mentioned how it covered the sections required for admission into most colleges.

>>22781359
>they want to
Je te jure que nul ne souhaite cela. Qu'est-ce-que tu entends au juste par « they » ? Les anglophones ?

>>22781343
>. It only really shows up in Legal Spansih.
BS

>>22777879
https://youtu.be/c9XvKzYZwQQ?si=VOlcbcvASAQNepqo

>>22780907
I refer to this post again >>22775812

>>22781343
The former is true (native speakers don't generally need to consciously think about grammar at all), the latter is not true in the slightest.
>>22781359
By "simplify conjugations" do you mean changing the actual forms used in the language, or just changing their written representations to better reflect how they're actually said?

>>22781049
>Arab
I'm reading hadiths from the hadith collection known as The meadows of Righteous. I have to use a dictionary but it's very interesting

I'm Akkadianon who used to post here, how are you guys? Have you started learning any new languages? I'm learning Levantine dialect of Arabic (I live in Jordan rn), which is the opposite of classical language, but it still helps me understand classical Arabic better.

>>22781439
This is true. Mange, manges, mangent are all pronounced the same.

>>22783745
You'd think they'd keep pronouncing parts of the word that carry meaning, but I guess it's like in English where we lost -e on the end of 1st person singular and the -en on the plurals/infinitive.

Quis est iste qui venit? Pithicus est!

>>22783785
>You'd think they'd keep pronouncing parts of the word that carry meaning
Why would you expect that? Language chance doesn't care about things like that.

>>22783797
Ack, *change

>>22783785
Change in one part of a language does create structural pressure in other parts. The change here described is probably at least one reason why French doesn't allow pronoun dropping.

>>22780068
That picture you posted was at a terrible and suspicious angle. You have yet to prove you are not a troon.

>>22784104
You literally saw my boobs

OH MY GOD WHO FUCKING CARES
POST ABOUT CLASSIC LANGUAGES OR GET OUT
I DON'T CARE IF THAT ANON IS OR ISN'T A GIRL
UNLESS YOU START HAVING THIS INANE FUCKING ARGUMENT IN A CLASSICAL LANGUAGE SHUT UP

>>22784137
妾肯以漢文論之

Go find a nice stall in the department bathroom and work it out yourselves.

>>22784130
Gross

>>22784137
Numquam femina eris

>>22783742
>Akkadianon
I wasn't here when you were, but I've just started learning about Mesopotamian lit, what are your recommendations as to the best works?

>>22777879
Update
Iam kakuna in beedrill mutatum est, itaque nunc Brock victum iri credo. Beedrill enim strenuum videtur.
Strenuumne dixi? Immo strenuissimum omnium monstrulorum. Cum non multa sciam de monstrulis, tamen certus sum beedrill esse monstrum legendarium. Numquam antea fortius vidi monstrulum.
Tam enim certus sum, ut cetera mea monstrula liberem. Vale, charmander. Vale, pidgey. Nunc verum monstrulum habeo.
Nunc tantum cum meo beedrill gradu 10 in gymnasium ero. Fortunam bonam exoptate mihi si vultis, sodales; sed fortunam non curo, cum beedrill, monstrulum optimum maximum, habeam.

>>22777879
Update
Iam kakuna in beedrill mutatum est, itaque nunc Brock victum iri credo. Beedrill enim strenuum videtur.
Strenuumne dixi? Immo strenuissimum omnium monstrulorum. Cum non multa sciam de monstrulis, tamen certus sum beedrill esse monstrum legendarium. Numquam antea fortius vidi monstrulum.
Tam enim certus sum, ut cetera mea monstrula liberem. Vale, charmander. Vale, pidgey. Nunc verum monstrulum habeo.
Nunc tantum cum meo beedrill gradu 10 in gymnasium ibo. Fortunam bonam exoptate mihi si vultis, sodales; sed fortunam non curo, cum beedrill, monstrulum optimum maximum, habeam.

βρεκεκεκὲξ κοὰξ κοάξ.

>>22784277
關關雎鳩

>>22783742
Any reccs for good Arabic literature? I'm looking to get a present for a friend learning MSA.
Also, how understandable is classical Arabic to people who know MSA? I've heard that MSA is kind of an artificial koine not too different from classical but idk how true that.
Is it mostly just new vocabulary or is the difference more like katharevousa vs Attic?

>>22784295
NTA but there are degrees of MSA. Almost nobody for example pronounces the case endings.

>>22784289
在河之洲

>>22783745
Really? -ent isn't nasalized?

>>22784314
The -ent ending is silent but causes the preceding final consonant to be voiced. It's completely equivalent to the -e ending.

>>22784277
I consider myself white. That's good enough.

>>22784314
Maybe in some conservative dialects? But in standard French it's pronounce exactly the same.
ʒə mɑ̃ʒ ty mɑ̃ʒ il mɑ̃ʒ
nu mɑ̃ʒɔ̃ vu mɑ̃ʒe il mɑ̃ʒ

>>22784330
>some conservative dialects
Lezakadjien (the acadians) pronounce it [ə], not nasalized. This sounds very strange to my metropolitan French ears and strange even to the people of Quebec.

>>22784322
>>22784330
Interesting. Any idea how this changed across different historical eras?

>>22784326
Not sure what this has to do with frogs but ok anon, we're all very proud of you.

>>22784355
Nasalization > colloquial denasalization of 3ppl ending > loss of final consonants before words starting with consonants > general loss of final consonants > loss of final [ə].

>>22774736
>untranslatable
>τέ = ;

>>22784130
Yeah, they were pretty flat. It looked like you were hiding an Adam’s apple. The angle was so odd.

>>22784259
Pereat geodude
Pereat onix
Brock, abeas in malam crucem
beedrill mortuum est :(

>>22784586
The odd angle is because my phone doesn't have a front-facing camera so I have to basically take selfies blind. Why do you care what's in my pants anyway?

>>22781049
I'm Ethiopianon. I'm the only guy here who knows Ge'ez, and there is no one here that I've seen who knows Classical Armenian or Syriac. I'm not currently reading any Ge'ez, just Greek. It's not very fun (the Greek), just complicated prose. The last Ge'ez I read was the Ezana Stone.

>>22784801
Whom are you reading right now?

>>22784804
Gregory of Nyssa

>>22784355
I have a book from the early 1900s about speaking properly (written in French for a French audience) and the author complained how shitty actors don't differentiate between the conditional and future tense. Example, je me tuerai (/ty.ʁe/) vs je me tuerais (/ty.ʁɛ/)

It's just me or these links of the thread don't open?

>>22784842
Yes, that distinction is only surviving in stage French.

>>22784676
>my phone doesn't have a front-facing camera
Doubt
>Why do you care what's in my pants anyway?
It's not that I care about what's in your pants. It's that I find it odd how you choose to represent yourself and inject your gender into this thread. You don't see me talking about my ἀνδρεία.

>>22784921
It's a flip phone. I'm weird.
>It's that I find it odd how you choose to represent yourself and inject your gender into this thread.
I only brought it up when it was relevant.

>>22784911
Are you telling me that the current crème de la crème enunciate their words like pedestrians?

>>22784925
NTA but I suspect we did meet at one point. If so I truly had no idea what either your ex or that girl were up to, and I'm sorry.

>>22784952
Not if they're Belgian or Swiss. French in France however is bleeding vowel qualities over the whole last century.

>>22784956
My ex? I've only really dated one boy, and I only ever managed to spend a few days in his physical presence. I think you must have me mixed up with someone. I'm in upstate NY.

>>22784974
Good. I inadvertently ruined the life of a flip phone user once. Nothing more about that.

>>22784956
>>22784979
I remember you doing this gimmick before, I respect that you're keeping it up. It's the little things like this that make /clg/ so much better than "institutions" with "experts" and "standards" and "competency".

>>22785005
>I remember you doing this gimmick before
What gimmick? Why does it make /clg/ better?

>>22784964
I suppose it was bound to happen, much like iodization with the Greek language. I'll be the foreigner larping like I'm from the 1800s

>>22785021
I hate to tell you but it isn't unusual at all. Particularly North African speakers have a way of replicating some conservative vowel qualities.

>>22784801
I have learned Syriac. I can't read without a dictionary though, I doubt I every will. I announce my existence in here sometimes but there is no point really. Currently reading some Psalms

Do you think Ge'ez would be accessible if I understand Syriac?

>>22770310
I honestly think that Japanese is related to the Minoan language, and that it has the key to linear A

>>22784194
Non ego esse femina scripsi, enim vir sum. Simpliciter verba stulta odi.

>>22785198
You'd better have a primo schizo spiel to back this up

>>22784894
you have to replace the ' dot ' with an actual dot because of the stupid anti-spam system
mind the spaces

>>22776708
Cambridge off the top of my head doesn't introduce the ablative til Unit 3 books, and the locative (or most the correlatives) at all iirc

>>22785402
correlatives show up so frequently how the fuck can something call itself a latin textbook without teaching those? "tam/quam" is in every other sentence.

>>22783313
eheu, sententia ubi nulla amica autistica latine pokemon cantans

>>22785142
>Do you think Ge'ez would be accessible if I understand Syriac?
It's a lovely language that gets no love. I think the hardest part about the language is the script. There are over 200 signs you must memorize. Modern Ethiopian languages have even more. Ge'ez is a Semitic language with many recognizable Semitic features, so it isn't all that hard on the grammatical and vocabulary fronts.
The textbook that I used has yet to be published. I am honor-bound not to share it. Once published, I will upload to the ANE Mega. There are other textbooks out there, but they are terrible in comparison. There are so many languages worth learning, especially Semitic ones, that I would suggest holding off until it's published. I'm learning Coptic right now, and that's a fun language. I definitely recommend Layton over Lambdin. Lambdin sucks.

>>22786258
Sounds nice... And definitely exotic.

I'm going to come right out and say it. The SUPPOSED Ge'ez "Humeans" of the 16th century are HOAXES. Pious frauds? Perhaps! But hoaxes nonetheless.

please throw at me all of the evidences pointing out that greeks were actually very very homophobic

Hi, could I get some help here?
I know it's the gerundive, but I'm trying to see which is the main acusative in the construction and how to translate it

In primis rationem esse habendam dicunt

>>22787602
do you know about indirect statements?

>>22787612
Yeah, i'm just having trouble translating it.
I get that "rationem esse habendam" is the object of dicunt.

>>22770310
>>22770529
>>22770641
/sci/ gave a partial solution to a legit mathematical problem which was unsolved for 25 years using anime as an analogy.
/pol/ had the Shia incident among others
/x/ had the Cicada 3301 thing and SCP foundation which is cringe but is at least popular among normies
/litl/ had big chungus which was an unfunny and now completely dead meme.
We need to do something that will bring honour to our board lest we live in shame for all eternity.

Ratio habenda est

>>22787666
Excellent, just fill in the gaps and see what makes more sense, they say that ....

Here is a more simple sentence to get the gist, urbem esse pulchram dicunt

I would give you the answer but you have to work for it yourself. You wont get buff doing pushups on your knees.

>>22787687
((They)) say that the city is beautiful,
no?
So something like: they say that there has to be a reason in the first place?

The rest of the fragment is easier, with some passives and an "ut"
It was the gerundive giving me the issues
Thanks for the help.

>>22770310
Unless we find a Rosetta Stone for it that's likely impossible. We already know some things about the grammar (http://people.ku.edu/~jyounger/LinearA/)), but we're sort of at a loss moving forwards.

For those wondering the way that Linear A was semi-deciphered was due to a Rosetta Stone situation where Mycenaean texts written in Linear B would say something like "The king bought 300 olives, which the Minoans call [linear A text]". Interestingly it appears to have had prefixed case markers for the dative, but a marked suffixed genitive. It appears to more or less evenly prefix and suffix, which isn't all that unusual but it is uncommon for a language to mark grammar with both. It appears to have had a VSO word order (Hattic, a pre-PIE Anatolian language, also had this). Most of the grammar appears to be nominal, with little verbal inflection, which would make it similar to Etruscan in that regard. This seems to be consistent with pre-PIE Anatolian languages having become very agglutinative out of a period of analyticity.

>>22787721
Recte coniectas

>>22786258
>The textbook that I used has yet to be published. I am honor-bound not to share it. Once published, I will upload to the ANE Mega.
Based.
> I think the hardest part about the language is the script.
This is the first time I'm seeing a non-Chinese/Japanese learner say that the hardest part is of his language is the script. Surely even 200 characters dwarf in comparison to the vocabulary? I always thought Ge'ez would be easier than, say, Hebrew, because at least the vowels are always written out in full.

how reliable is chatgpt 4 to guide me through this book?

>>22788454
Not reliable at at. It sucks at Latin and it is even worse at ancient greek.

>>22788474
i fucking hate robots

>>22788454
Do you have the first or the second edition of logos?

Americanus porcum manibus tenens in tabernam intrat.
Tabernarius "non licet" inquit "bestiis hanc in tabernam intrare".
Tunc porcus "foris expecta paululum, DeShwan" inquit Americano.

>>22788488
whichever is the one available on libgen (I believe it to be the first one, since there's no mention of being a 2nd edition)

>>22787669
>/sci/ gave a partial solution to a legit mathematical problem which was unsolved for 25 years using anime as an analogy.
Wait what? Why haven't I heard about this?

>>22788454
In my experience it has trouble with keeping Ancient Greek separate from Modern Greek and will keep lapsing back into Modern.

>>22788595
because it didn't happen

>>22788521
Utinam ne Germani linguam Latinam discerent.

>>22788606
Have you tried it with Bard? I've done some ancient Greek stuff with it but don't have the competency to judge its skill

>>22788658
I haven't.

hows retention with ancient languages? I havent studied any yet but am currently learning a modern learning, but dont you consistently have to use a language to not forget it? I cant imagine anyone here speaks their ancient language frequently

Is there an equivalent for Athenaze?

>>22789408
obviously with ancient languages the matter isn't wholly symmetric with modern ones as outputting in the latter is way more important than for dead ones, composing is almost the exception
but in any case, of course if you don't read frequently you are going to start losing a bit of reading proficiency as well

>>22789617
No, sadly.
However there are a ton of readers and learning materials freely available on the internet, but you have to check them one by one to know if you can read them.

Look at how active this thread is compared to other editions of /clg/. It's all in the picture.

>>22788632
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZzIvl1tbPo

>>22789617
Thrasymachus, JACT Reading book, and Logos can be used as reading supplements. There is also that Koine Greek LLPGSI

>>22788349
>I always thought Ge'ez would be easier than, say, Hebrew, because at least the vowels are always written out in full.
No, Hebrew is pretty easy. BH and BA are the easiest languages I've learned, imo. The Ge'ez vocab is pretty easy since there is so much overlap with other Semitic languages and Greek. The most foreign aspect of the language is the converb, a feature that comes from Cushitic, unless Turks or Mongolians got to the Ethio-Semites first, and it is the easiest aspect of Ge'ez.

>>22789617
Just (following this) started Sermones Romani and it's hard as fuck, like nobody speaks with default word order ever.

why are you so unfunny? i'll end up going back to japanese and djt

>>22784229
In the original language I've really enjoyed the descent of Ištar, it has nice repetitive structure. But mlst of this literature is only interesting if you are really into this period. You might enjoy poems, check out Endehuanna the first known by name poet ever, there are also compilations of Babylonian religious poetry that ylu can check out. If you want to read interlinear texts, check out electronic babylonian library

>>22784295
I don't speak Greek, but I have friends who study Greek so I have some understanding of those therms.
Arabic speakers don't distinguish between Msa and Clasical Arabic, they believe that's the same language.
The grammar is the same (except that MSA does not use cases, but they are not written anywhere except Quran and other poetry, so if you want you cant read the newspaper with grammatical cases), and the main differences in vocabulary are caused by using only one of many words for the same thing in fusha(they are still correct, but they will sound "poetic" to people. If you know MSA well (let's say B2 level) and have some knowledge of the Quran, then you will be able to read nearly everything with some help of the dictionary.
As to good Arabic literature - Najib Mahfouz is really good, and if your friend likes poetry, I'd reccomend one of the classical Maqama anthologies, you can never be wrong with them.

>>22785257
I can't believe anon left us hanging like that

>>22792064
Decennium eam non cognovi personam gerere, sed sucum faciem eius occultare putavi.

>>22791066
>descent of Ištar
Oh yeah the concept of that one sounded really cool.
>But mlst of this literature is only interesting if you are really into this period
I believe it, I am primarily interested in ancient poetry and mythical/religious literature anyway though, so I'll give it a shot. What do you think of Benjamin Foster's "Before the Muses"?

>>22789617
luv me Morice's Stories, simpel as

>>22785257
>>22792269
Here is my partial schizo spiel:
Basically, both LinearA and Japanese share similarities in basic words and structure, so it is possible that linearA is a sort of proto-Japanese
How?
>The Minoans, or a colony of the Minoans, fled Crete in the wake of disasters such as the 1628BC Thera eruption, an presumed earthquake that destroyed the Knossos Palace in 1375BC, and of course the bronze age collapse(1177BC)(when they totally disappeared)
>Note that the Chinese writing system is estimated to have came into use around 1250-1200BC, shortly after these disasters.
Take a look the environment of Southern Japan and Crete, you will see that they are both Islands, with similar climate, and both at a latitude of 35 Degrees(this is supposedly because all their astronomical tools were used at this latitude).

Going onto the language itself, if we take a look at geographic names around Crete, we see some names that are remarkably similar to Japanese.
>ZAKROS: Mountain range of Crete, Zakros means "pomegranate" in Japanese. (perhaps this mountain range was home to a Minoan goddess of fertility)
>MATALA: ancient port near Phaistos, known for many many made caves dotted along cliff side. Madala in Japanese means "dotted", could also suggest "crotch" since the port could be seen as such. It should also be noted that there is a bull deity who appears in bull festival of Oh-Sake shrine, close to Ho-Ryu-ji temple in Kyoto, whose name is Matala.
>CHANIA: City located on Northwestern cost of Crete. Now, to understand this one, we must see that Crete mapped out can be seen as a man, with Chania being the base of his nose. "Nose" in Japanese is "ha-na".
>Seitan Limanaia: beautiful beach in Crete, known for turquoise blue waters. "sei-tan" in Japanese means "clear blue".

Now, this is a brief on this topic, I put the resources that really dive deep into this topic in the image since anti-spam is annoying.

>>22793470
>Nose" in Japanese is "ha-na".
>[stares in doubtful weeb]

>>22792392
I've heard about this book, but I didn't read it yet. I think I've read some poems and prayers in those book, does it contain prayer to the gods of the night, if not I think this is nice and beautiful prayer.

I want to learn Chinese, first modern, and after some time classical, my work includes a lot of travelling, and I'm not able to learn in a stationary group (although I know, that Confucius Institute offers free lessons in my country), and I would like to learn by myself using some kind of app or self teaching website, what would you recommend? When would it be good idea to start learning Classical Chinese (after becoming fluent?) ?

>>22794274
You can start Classical at any point, including without any Mandarin at all. It will really only make a difference for script and vocabulary. This is like asking whether you should wait to be fluent in Italian before starting Latin.

>>22794274
I don't recommend the use of any app or self teaching website, other than maybe italki
get a textbook

>>22777031
Use the reference grammar in the back. Always start a language learning book by starting in the post lessons, then leaf through the lessons and jump straight to reading.

>>22783745
Wrong.

Is Luke Rainieri the God of this general?

>>22794566
who?

>tfw not sure if I should spend my Christmas break racing through LLPSI/some other easy student readers or struggling through some authentic Latin

>>22794663
This hack again
Guess what, fatty? With that word order, content and attempt at snark you are practically already speaking English. "Muh living language" half-assed attempt.

>>22794280
>This is like asking whether you should wait to be fluent in Italian before starting Latin
You should be though.

>>22794687
>Word order in Latin is totally free
>Nooo not like that it's starting to remind me of Germanic

>>22789617
>>22790127
Stories in Attic Greek, forming a Greek reading book by F.D. Morice (1883)
Greek boy at home: a story written in Greek by William H.D. Rouse (1909)
A First Greek Reader With Notes and Vocabulary by Charles M. Moss (1885)

Let's make a version of that image for Greek. All 3 of these can be found on Google Books by title.

>>22794687
let's see your latin then fag

>>22794566
pbuh
NeoHellas been really quiet since this dropped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1BS70EonLA

>>22784417
Based

But I will say that Smyth's blurb on hyllage crushed my motivation to learn classical Greek.

>>22789620
>composing is almost the exception
Was until recently, anyway. Lots of people were writing in Latin all the time up until not very long ago, and the same goes for Classical Chinese. Hell, the written language of the Arab world is still essentially lightly-modernized Classical Arabic.

>>22793470
>Zakros means "pomegranate" in Japanese
Thought to be a Chinese loan.
>"Nose" in Japanese is "ha-na".
The H/F was pronounced as P in Old Japanese, that's why it surfaces as such geminated and after the moraic nasal. (Hou but kenpou, hatsu but shuppatsu.) At the very least you should be comparing Proto-Japonic to Minoan, not modern Japanese.
>"sei-tan" in Japanese means "clear blue".
Another Chinese loan.

>>22794547
They literally are though. Perhaps they're pronounced differently in your dialect, but in standard Metropolitan French they're pronounced the same.

>>22795451
Wtf is 'hyllage'? I've never heard of that.

>>22794799
I was thinking about making an image for Greek but idk what starter textbook we would put. I don't think Italian Athenaze is by itself sufficient unless someone knows Italian. Anyone have thoughts?

>>22795662
There's already an infographic for use of Italian Athenaze. Check the FAQ. It neither requires Italian nor is sufficient by itself whether or not ones knows Italian.

>>22795662
UK Athenaze and then IT Athenaze as a reader to supplement like the rest. There is also baldman greek in action series that was intentionally made to make people understand chapter 1 of athenaze via inpoot

>>22795662
Infographic

>>22795557
>standard Metropolitan French
Filtered.

>>22795642
Its when cases inside a dialect vary between speakers. In other words, the majority of Greeks were just making shit up based on cases that sounded good to them. Dialects within dialects. What historians thought were scribal mistakes were legitimate permutations.

Can some of you actually smart people contribute. Thanks.
>>22794822

>Youtube video appears in my recommendations
>it's about Latin
>cool!
>it has the bald man
>closes video immediately

>>22794663
Ok so what's his problem, he speaks Latin actively and fluently, only in order to tell his audience that using Latin actively is dumb?

>>22796342
>ain barbare?
>dic numero latine ad Orcum mitti si nevis

>>22795832
>Greek: an intensive course
Why not use "Learn to Read Greek" which is the updated version? Is the old one better?

>>22796225
I don't see why that'd make you lose motivation. If anything it's a reality check that the ancients didn't give a shit about muh scientific accuracy, so why should you have to either? Modern neuroticism BTFO again.

>>22796511
I would want to reconstruct Doric in that case but there are no resources and I'm too stupid :(

>>22796557
Are the differences not mostly consistent vowel changes and shit like that? How much is there really to reconstruct?

>>22795552
That retard thinks Minoans left Crete and sailed all the way to Japan. While your effort is appreciated it is wasted on him.

Any anons interested in sanskrit/PIE?

>>22789617
>>22794799
>>22795662
What a waste of time.
After you finish a textbook, even before, you should go into reading authentic texts, not waste time dabbling with dumbed down baby-readers. The point is to read ancient authors so read them. Yes, it will be hard, but you will improve much more than splashing around in the kiddie pool.
Don't be like clock-boy and spend hundreds of hours on introductory material. The sooner you get into reading real, authentic texts the better.

CC people: have you tried working through Kieschnick's Buddhist writings primer?

>>22797079
>t. retard who has to rely on glosses every 3rd word

>>22797256
damn you didn't have to call me out like that. It's the primary thing that holds me back in terms of reading speed since either I have to just assume what it means or look it up.

>>22797284
>assume
never
>look it up
bingo
write it down, look it up later. review your notes and reread passages with them handy. over time your vocabulary will grow and speed will increase.
alternatively spend years reading graded readers like this guy >>22797256 and never touch real Cicero, Virgil or Demosthenes because you might come across words you dont know. protip: you will regardless

>>22797303
As I've read through Thucydides in class I've gotten a lot better at reading compounds and my naval terminology has gotten much better.

Hi Friends Im making a hyper-polyglot edition of the odyssey to work on my Greek/French/German

here is a sample, any interest in giving feedbackl/ helping me work on this? Its made in Latex if anyone wants source code

>>22797497
whoops I mean here is sample

>>22794566
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbL3PfoecCc
this guy is

>>22797256
Do people really mind this that much? I think it just adds a fun extra dimension to reading. If I run into an English word I don't know I don't give up on the book and go read 5 other super basic books as punishment before I can continue what I actually want to read, lol.

>>22796225
>In other words, the majority of Greeks were just making shit up based on cases that sounded good to them.
That's not fair to say. Homer was doing it for obvious metrical purposes. Prose authors also have to think about meter in a way too. Sentence balance, pacing, and sound are important, just as they are in English.

>>22797751
According to linguists who work on second language acquisition, yes. Your brain should dedicate most of its energy to reading not figuring how the nominative of some weird looking noun.
Obviously the hardcore reading that uses more brain energy to analyze literary/analytically dense texts but it to get to that stage in a foreign language you also need an ocean of easy books your brain has read to reinforce high frequency words and grammatical features

>>22797914
>That's not fair to say
>Also,here's why you're right

So it is fair to say.

>>22794280
I don't know Italian, but I'm teaching Hebrew both modern and Biblical (and other periods to a lesser extant). If someone wants to know both, I know exactly where it is best to start learning Biblical Hebrew. It's after you teach them all of binyanim and verb tenses, and after they've mastered all of basic vocabulary, so I think it's B1. After that I can teach them additional grammar that's not used in modern Hebrew (imperative, rare binyanim etc.) It is possible to learn only BH but if you want to know them both it's easier to start from modern. I wander if anyone has similar experience with teaching/learning classical and modern chinese.

what's the best way to become fluent in a classical language? i'm trying to write in latin but i can't manage more than a sentence even though I can read it fine.

>>22799370
daily practice. you spent more time reading than writing it. scribendo scribere disces.

>>22799391
But if you make mistakes won't you end up just reinforcing your own mistakes unless you have a more fluent speaker to check your writing?

>>22799893
well normally you'd be writing something which someone else is going to read as part of a community, but still, if your Latin reading skills are mature enough you should be able to spot where your own Latin sounds off or non idiomatic

If I translate fictional Elder Scrolls in game books into Latin will anyone review it? I'm a quarter of the way through the Mythic Dawn Commentaries I and cannot decide on certain word choices.

For example, with the line "we shall breath whole realities" should I use "res" to mean reality, or "mundus"? Or perhaps "orbis" for worlds?

>>22799893
to add to this anon's advice >>22799954
imitate the structures but don't veer too far from the model. you can also use one of those Latin composition books with an answer key on google books or libgen

>>22799988
Translation is tough. Are you trying to be literal? idiomatic? easy to understand? are you limiting yourself to the Latinity of the golden age, etc

Mundos profectos fingemus.
Realitates compactas inflabimus. .

>>22800049
I like Medieval the most, but avoiding using the articles un/unus/unum or ille/illa for indefinites and definites. That's the only real rule I'm following. Everything else is on the table.

The word order changes around about but that's because there are so many clauses. Commas and semi-colons have to be used.

The only real goal is to stick to the nature of the text. For example, when it says
>"glinting with the light of a new dawn."

I put:
>"rutilans luce novae aurorae."

Rutilans comes from the word for "red" and the Mythic Dawn and Mehrunes Dagon use a lot of red and he has red skin so this lined up perfectly. Basically I'm trying to exploit every oddity in Latin and bend it to the meaning and significane of the lore. It does not have to be literal but if you read it you have to think that a master of the order had written it in Cyrodiilic.

So the second of your lines I think fits the nature of the text more closely because it is in line with engineering and control.

>>22800049
Oh, and I have given up on matching the meter of the original. That is just too difficult for me.

>>22798882
Modern Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew are very uncommonly close. The same is not true of Italian and Latin, and certainly not of Chinese and Classical Chinese. In the former case one can be derived from the other with a set of vocabulary and grammatical rules; in the latter cases they are different languages altogether.

>>22800299
That's because Hebrew is a medieval invention. It's a 9th century reconstruction by the Masoretes attempting to recreate their own Aramaic. That actual Aramaic of Jesus' time would have been western Syriac.

>>22800358
meds

>>22800367
It's true. The Masoretes even borrowed the diacritics from late eastern Syriac. It's also how we know so many Israeli artifacts are forgeries.

>>22800380
Do you claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls are forgeries? If so, refer to >>22800367
Or do you only believe that the vowels are a medieval invention? Vowels are not terribly important in semitic languages, and MH pronunciation is obviously different from BH (or even the Masoretes') pronunciation.

>>22800404
>Do you claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls are forgeries
It is among the most obvious examples. Do you really think it is a coincidence that they were founded on the eve of neo-rabbinicalist colonization?

If you want to stick to classical languages, we shall remain here. If you want to speak generally we will undoubtedly meet again on /his/ for another row of moggings.

>>22800423
>moggings
NTA but you're embarrassing yourself. I don't know why your sorts always seem to believe that simply stating your views counts as a "mogging." Meds.

>>22800423
I'm bowing out here, we're obviously inhabiting different realities.

>>22800431
Defending forgeries is an easy way to get yourself discredited. Standing by them after you know it is wrong is just humiliating. Someone has to stand for the truth around here but beating the sense into lying miscreants is a bonus.

>>22800404
nta but dead sea scrolls DO seem a lil sussy to me anon, and the jews are a tricky people (not being antisemitic) so I wouldn't doubt that they'd pull some shenanigans with their languages

>>22800107
>>22800125
Sounds very interesting and a tough project if you want to make both a translation and high flown. Post your progress in these threads.

>>22800107
>>22800125
Sounds very interesting but it will be a tough project if you want to make high flown translation. Post your progress in these threads.

ΝΕΟΝ
>>22800498
>>22800498
>>22800498