/lit/ - Literature

No.
fpbp /thread

>>22765386
Games like Disco Elysium and Planescape are basically books

>>22765386
Maybe, decades from now, if the audience fundamentally changes, which would require broader fundamental changes in present humanity.

Most importantly I‘d assert that vidya stories can‘t be judged by the degree to which they insert book or movie formats in the middle but only by the degree to which they impart narrative while remaining interactive. I am only aware of Majora‘s Mask and Silent Hill 2 being the games which even approached this and they‘re still on the folk tale or silent film level of development.

In other words, no.

Some are, most aren't.
Some "games" are basically just books.

That said the type of story telling best suited to games is very different from the type of storytelling that literature is best suited to.

Sort of like how plays are different from prose books in story telling which is different from painting in how it tells stories which is different from movies, etc.

>>22766762
>Maybe, decades from now, if the audience fundamentally changes, which would require broader fundamental changes in present humanity.
What exactly do you mean by this.
What fundamental changes do you think it would require and why?

>Most importantly I‘d assert that vidya stories can‘t be judged by the degree to which they insert book or movie formats in the middle but only by the degree to which they impart narrative while remaining interactive
Most games with a focus on story already do this.
>I am only aware of Majora‘s Mask and Silent Hill 2 being the games which even approached this
That is more of you being nearly totally uninformed about what is out there then a fault in videogames as a story telling format.

>>22766773
Most games with a story most certainly do not do this. Retaining player control while parsing through text or being talked at is a goofy cope for inept devs.

I like the way storytelling was handled in Hypnospace Outlaw. Essentially giving you a huge book to click through and explore in a non-linear fashion, interspersed with more outright gamey things like puzzles.
That's a great example of the medium being utilised for something literary that only really can be a game, as opposed to like trying to make a movie but ending up with something that is neither a good movie or a good game.

>>22766762
Play Another World. It's a really good example of a game telling a story with no dialogue, out of almost entirely intuitive playable sequences.

>>22766808
Again, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to videogame story telling.

>>22765386
Videogames are copy and paste from McCarthy books. TLOU is the best example, they try to create something new with TLOU 2 and failed very hard (I'm really convinced they try to copy and paste Naruto in the part 2)

>>22766885
What is up with you people trying to talk about "video games", when your conception of what that even is is like three games?

>>22766919
Pretty sure it's just a troll they heard somewhere else that worked in a different context but now they are repeating it despite it not making a lick of sense.

>>22765386
I'm sure we've had this thread 99999 times, but...
The only one that has literary merit is Planescape: Torment, and it still doesn't approach great literary works. If by "as an form" you meant to say "as an art form," video games' primary artistic outlet is their gameplay design, not their writing, but games can be a "complete package" too.

>>22765386
There are some truly masterful games out there. But generally speaking the average game developer has no fucking clue what they're doing.

>>22765386
Ive played more video games than ive read books to be honest so I may be biased

But its just a different art form, which often bleeds similarities to other art forms. like MGS4 being a glorified movie. disco elysium a glorified book. and Beginners guide being visual art.

The biggest issue with disecting video games as a medium for story telling is it isnt really designed solely to tell a story and often have stories bolted on after the GAMEPLAY and feed back loop is made

The few games that are made with a story in mind first turn out to be amazing. Ie, Disco Elysium. which as >>22766746 said that game is also a basically a book

Another problem is a director may be brilliant, or utter dog shit but the direction of the game doesnt always fall in their lap. And the end results of their vision may change from reasons outside of their control (meddling higher ups, release dates, limitation of game design)

That being said, I do think Video games can present story telling in ways books and movies could not- because all the examples I gave relies on player input. While many books can immerse us, few let me say "Id actually like to investigate Dorian Greys background before this book" and roll a skill check for it, ya know?

But also most games are shit at story telling

so. TLDR: I think its an amazing story telling medium, especially if you only interact with the best games.
Like silent hill 2.

Just like how books arent boring as fuck so long as you read only the best. Desu.

>>22766970
same guy

>>22766943
yeah This too. Like to be honest, as much as I love video games they kind of dont stand up on their own as literary art.

Part of this I also think is because (like I said) kind of a massive undertaking to make a game. If we sat Homer down to make a story for a video game, it probably wouldnt be that good of a STORY.
but it would make a pretty good action game story desu.

But also, id like to see Kafka write a wack ass art game.

>>22766983
>But also, id like to see Kafka write a wack ass art game.
There's a game based on Metamorphosis, but I think it's just a shitty walking simulator. It's probably a good example of how the games that are more outwardly artsy are actually less creatively impressive than games that focus on the primary channels of game design. I would say the greatest works of the medium are the likes of Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout: Video games that build upon the reservoir of creative knowledge gathered by pre-video game designers, streamline them using the computer and input interfaces of vidya, then add audiovisual elements for atmosphere.

What’s up with the frequent threads along the lines of “is/are anime/manga/video games equal to literature”?

Do people post on /v/ “any books as good as video games?” or on /a/ “novels equal to anime?”?

>Are they capable of telling stories comparable to good literature?
No, and it probably never will. Being able to control a character and have them look at whatever they want to already is a massive determent to telling a story where you may require full attention.
Unless you want to go the route of Uncharted/TLOU/God of War 2018 where it becomes a walking movie simulator where you sightsee in video games; which of course stops being a TRUE video game in the first place, that being an interactive medium.
Not to mention, most video game stories are very mediocre, if we compare them to classics. Literature has far more versatility to tell stories in a meaningful manner while also educating you.

I think the closest I've ever got to great storytelling but it's also an interactive TRUE video game is probably Thief: The Dark Project. It not only uses cutscenes to tell you the story, but it also uses the levels to tell you the story, using journals laying around or just the construction and showing of the level/map itself. Storytelling from a foreground and background viewpoint, while also worldbuilding near flawlessly. Superb game.
However, even with the praise, the story itself is only genre-fiction tier. It's nowhere near the greats we all know.

>Are they capable of telling stories comparable to good literature?
So to answer, truthfully no. The only real way I can think of bridging the gap to good literature is pretty much fully immersing yourself in the world, like in Sword Art Online, where you can interact with the world and the game tells you a story that way. But that level of technological progress is a century away, and we'll most likely be dead before we see that ever happen.

>>22767011
>then add audiovisual elements for atmosphere.
I should have added: the audiovisual elements should also streamline the gameplay. They're there not only for atmosphere, but so video games can be something beyond tabletop and spreadsheets, gameplay-wise.

>>22765386
>screenwriters are failed novelists
>fanfic writers are failed screenwriters
>video game writers are failed fanfic writers
oh wow, you wrote the dialog and named the objective for level 2 of Mass Effect 4? I'm sure the themes were very... thought provoking .

/lit/ game recommendations? Already played all the Silent Hill and Metal Gear games. Games can be interesting but there is so much fucking garbage you have to get through in order to find a actual good game.

darl souls
nuff said

>>22765386
>>>/v/

>>22767465
Who the fuck uses /v/? You can't even discuss games, it's a literal cesspool

>>22767521
>You can't even discuss games
What do they talk about then?

>>22767528
books

>>22767528
Twitter screenshots, politics, drama, eceleb drama, basically just women and homosexual shit

>>22765386
Play Atari 2600. Prepared to use your imagination.

>>22765386
Umineko is peak fiction. Even though it's more like a novel than a game.

>>22767311
You start with the greeks (The first trilogy of God of War)

>>22765386
They can, but in most games with good stories, the strengths of their stories play poorly to cinema or literature due to being interactive mediums.
Fallout 1 and 2 have great stories, but would have have to be rewritten for it to work in another medium.

>>22768790
And of course there is stuff like Metal Gear Solid series which is beloved in gaming but the writing is convoluted and overstuffed dogshit, and would bomb if the games were adapted to cinema or novels.
There are games with great stories but the medium needs to mature in this regard if someone like Kojima is considered a great writer.

>>22765386
Storytelling, immersion, ethical decisions - these are just buzzwords based on what creative directors think are real aesthetic values that qualify you as True Art. They don't relate to the specific weirdnesses and materiality of the videogame form, its inhumanness, and you can't make interesting art if you don't pay attention to your materials. This is a canonical text for me on the subject, but everything thecatamites writes is in a league of its own: http://harmonyzone.org/text/monsterparty.html.. Excerpted:
> Text is both a resource and a drain, and I think part of the history of text in videogames is that of designers coming up with ways to plug this black hole. It was a while yet before technological and economic affordance would allow the generic NPC to become that settled repository for dolorously “naturalistic” polished lore sentences that we know and begrudgingly tolerate from AAA and indie alike today – “Howdy stranger. What can I get’cha? Rare to see new faces in this town. It hasn’t been the same since the war –now that all the youngsters left there’s nobody to maintain our previously buoyant fishing industry. This damn war… Well, sorry for flying off the handle there. If you’ve got any [squirrel hide], I’d be willing to trade for ‘em” and on and on and on forever. This kind of stolid, researched and dutifully ‘characterised’ Quality Prose turns out to be perfect filler for the indeterminate non-spaces of the videogame text system, and we are once again reminded that the Iowa Writer’s Workshop was not the least of the CIA’s crimes against humanity.

Pic related is just a choose your own adventure book with puzzles

>>22768805
The thing about MGS is the fact that they're games is a big part of why they're good. The fact that it does all kinds of fun goofy things with the form, and links storytelling with playable sequences in an effective way that makes it so appealing as a thing.
The fact that you can contact your guy on the radio in some super specific moment, and get a unique piece of dialogue or lore, for example. It's all very "neat". It's not necessarily well written in the sense that it would translate into a great movie or anything.

>>22765386
It's art in the sense there are colors and forms and it is playful and stimulating.

>>22765392
you can't fpbp your own post, loser

>>22765386
Stories are a waste of time if they don't teach you lessons that help free you from suffering.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/index.html

>>22769169
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZiE-EofAE&list=PLF755B81CBBCA7B59&index=1&pp=iAQB

>>22769169
>>22769173
>>22748973

There’s definitely something interesting about narrative storytelling in video games, and there’s something poetic about games as well, but they’re definitely not some kind of art. Then again neither are novels. These are basically just media

>>22766943
>literary merit is fancy prose

Fine, look at the Legacy of Kain games then.
They have a over abundance of fancy prose.

>>22767020

It's insecurity as you probably suspect.
It's the same reason why games constantly compared themselves to the movie industry in the 00s until they found their footing as a respected art form of their own.

They are capable yes.
It has not yet happened.
Even the best of narrative focused video games are trash compared to the best literature

>>22767311
What kind of stuff do you like.
Because SH and MGS are two totally different games, so I am not really sure what your taste is.

For example Alpha Protocol is a spy fiction thriller with ok story beats, so is somewhat similar in theme to MGS.

Lorelai are creepy atmospheric game with a strong puzzle and story focus (though at times I felt dumb because I kept dying lol). Though it's gameplay is point and click style, so if you aren't into those type of games then I could suggest something else.


Then you have games like Jouney that show why games are a artform of their own, and can do things, tell a story, in ways that a book never could.
Because it's one of direct experience of something rather than a experience skillfully recounted. Which is something that is often ignored in such threads like this. Or maybe unknown to people who don't really play games.

Its a simulation of climbing up the mountain, rather then someone skillfully telling you how it felt when they climbed up the mountain.

>>22769224
What do you think is art then?
Just paintings?

>>22765386
>are they capable of telling good stories

Yes but most don't.

>are they capable of telling stories comparable to good literature?

Two different mediums. A book can tell you down to the very detail, with words why you love/hate a character with excruciating detail or even with actions described in word.

A game will make you go through several trials and levels in the name of a character and make you develop a repertoire and knowledge of a character you hate. Or it should.

e.g. making you crawl and move slowly across 3 maps against a sniper who is seemingly invisible, killing you instantly 9 times out of 10. until you develop frustration.

Neither one is better than the other.

>Are they capable of telling stories comparable to good literature?
Quite the question.
Depends on your definition of good innit?
There's strengths to the medium, there's high points, there's low points, there's things that rub up against the style of someone else and have it's strengths.
It can definitely knock out TV, movies and radio dramas though.

Shadow of the colossus was always pushed around as art for obvious reasons being that you would feel connected to the MC and his struggle through playing in a way that only a book could really achieve.
NieR Gestalt/Replicant is an example of something that uses it's gameplay and context on subsequent playthroughs to deliver it's message and it does it well even if Taro is a meme who writes things backwards.

You have the MMO side too, I've heard WoW has had good quest writing. XI has, XIV is jerked off for it on Shadowbringers from Ishikawa but that has the trappings of plothole city, pacing issues and consistency problems. The MMO side has the unique angle of having you spend hundreds of hours in the world, Ishikawa isn't a terrible writer, she's competent and she rubs up well telling tales in a world and did a neat little isekai. Her best quest work though tainted with the power of frenship were high points for the game.
Then you have her work on Endwalker that falls hard into the comic book serial mess of needing to wrap things up, the accelerator hits hard and the story moves at lightspeed to the heat death of the universe where a doll sits wearing a badge saying themes are for book reports. It's disgusting and she was out of her depth, like a season 5 or 6 of a 4 season show, it overstays it's welcome and jumps the shark while she stands in a half inch puddle.

As for the prose? The japs have always struggled with it but Ishikawa writes like a horny 24 year old. Taro is your average schizophrenic literal jap and SOTC has nothing.
In the west, they're asking what the fuck be prose as they walk in simuli.
This isn't a japs good, west bad post even; merely a view from someone who has yet to see TV serial tier writing in a western vidya yet.

>>22766768
>>That said the type of story telling best suited to games is very different from the type of storytelling that literature is best suited to.
Pretty much, same deal with comics.

>>22769990
>A book can tell you down to the very detail, with words why you love/hate a character with excruciating detail or even with actions described in word.
It can tell you but telling you won't achieve shit.

>>22768827
Agreed. I find Greenberg's concept of medium specificity helpful when thinking about this topic whether for video games or any potential artform. Everyone is always trying to use story/narrative in games to somehow bring them to the level of literature but I feel that's going in the wrong direction.

I think they have the capability to be on par with good literature but the nature of the medium makes the comparison indirect as the strengths of each are in what makes them unique. To make an easier analogy, VNs have the ability to trump horror and mystery novels and branch into higher order concerns of Interactive Fiction as a nacent medium due to making the reader complicit in decisions and the nonlinear and branching aspects of design. Games are playing to similar strengths and targeting a kind of narrative AND experience that simply cannot exist as anything but a poor simulacrum in print. They can hit harder using those vernacular tools of the trade.

I don't think many do but the art of it is almost nothing like film or literature in presentation or execution and are things easily missed when trying to compare it like for like.

>>22765386
>vidya as an form

Mario is one of the most complex literary characters of all time

>>22770487
The Platonic form of a video game?

One thing I really like about games is how you can use gameplay to split up cutscenes/story, and have something to give you a breather and lots of time to digest what's happening in the plot. Both Metal Gear Solid and Silent Hill did this for instance.

Unfortunately games have tried more and more to blend story with gameplay. Games have less gameplay density than ever, and the story is so forced on you that everyone gets sick of it. Games seriously just need to fuck off and let you explore a world for a while. No cutscenes, no intrusive UI, just let me explore a world.

Anyway gaming is basically dead. It had potential but the medium clearly hasn't gone anywhere in decades. In many ways we regressed

This game does it well

There's a good chunk that do it but it's not the majority

>>22766746
>Games like Disco Elysium and Planescape
I was looking for a post to anchor this part to but these two handle the decision making/character side of dialogue choices & options well without falling into the ludo-narrative dissonance trappings and without breaking immersion too hard.
Some games and RPGs have issues with this, mediocre VN's, mass effect, fallout where choices can be limited, don't mesh with the playstyle or fit your idea of character. Then there's the other side of the problem where even with dialogue choices, the outcome and option selected don't match.
Even when there's not dialogue choices, your idea of character can be shattered in an instant breaking immersion. Games that want to do choice, to present your actions with a character need that strong sense of character to pull off a story without pulling you out of it or being disagreeable.

It's something you don't see happening as much in other mediums. It's easy to laugh at the ludo meme but it's so prevalent in vidya.
You'll see shades of it in movies, TV or comics where a character will make a bad decision or do something out of character but it passes easier; it's also easier to recover from this.
Capes & long established characters fall closest to this where characters have decades upon decades of history, clear personalities and going against the grain causes uproar & controversy. There was a period in the mid 00's to mid 10's where you'd see characters getting replaced, acting out of character to serve an event comic or idea and you'd see backlash.
Those sorts of things get smoothed over a lot easier or ignored to focus on the good while in vidya they're seen as glaring flaws because the concept of character is separated less.

>>22767311
Dark Souls trilogy/Bloodborne/Sekiro, then Elden Ring if you want an open world and all of Miyazaki's story ideas summed up in one game.
Spec Ops: The Line
Portal/Half Life series, though there is no resolution to the story because they were abandoned.
Limbo/Inside
Outer Wilds
The Witness
Penumbra series, first Amnesia game
Resident Evil 1-4, The Evil Within
Uncharted 1+2
Control
Kentucky Route Zero
Naissance
Disco Elysium
SOMA
Mother series
Never play any David Cage games

the idea of relevant media is to pass vibes to the coming generation. geriatrics will denounce that, gatekeeping their clout of education, but the time is always right, speaking by means available.

if anything ancient druids were shitting on boooks, staying true by the oral tradition. sneed.

>>22765386
No, they shouldn't, and those that try are shit
Vidya should be about gameplay, not muh stories

>>22767311
Soulsbornkiro, Kingdom Come Deliverance, Yakuza series, Mafia 1 & 2

>>22771920
these aren't /lit/ these are just your favorite games

>>22771997
this isn't valid this is just your opinion

>>22772085
Your opinion isn't valid, i'm glad we agree.

>>22772086
Cool that you're glad but I do not give a fuck. You are a worm.

>>22772104
>I don't give a fuck
>b-b-but i have to respond anyway to show everyone how i don't care
lol ok

>>22765386
They are absolutely capable of setting themselves aside as a unique artistic medium but so many just take the overly cinematic, overly gamey, or cinematic + gamey approach.

Forgive me for sharing a fucking Let's Play here of all places but it does well to explain part of a largely-forgotten game (Brothers, A Tale of Two Sons) that utilises its medium well, using even the controls to tell a part of the story:

https://youtu.be/B53MhRjBzKI?feature=shared&t=661

The game itself is mired in Norse myth/fairytale, too.

The gameplay loop really brings the genre down but being able to create an environment with music that goes along with it is a nice experience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brh_dWXj_Wk&list=RDBrh_dWXj_Wk

You guys actually read literature for the stories?

>>22767020
It’s part of the process growth process. The retreat from mainstream pop culture to traditional literature includes a stop at Japanese manga, anime, and video games.

>>22767311
Nier: Automata

>>22769941
Art that which articulates and directs culture, identifies a culture, and acts as ambassador to a culture. It’s differentiated from craft and mere media, which themselves are differentiated from stories although all of them can tell stories. Video games are just media.

>>22765386
The stories found in games are suppose to be supplementary to gameplay. For instance, the story in Doom is that demons have invaded Earth and it's up to a marine to stop them. In this case, the story serves as an excuse to shoot demons. When games become more than this, they stop being games and start being shitty interactive movies like Sony games where you spend several minutes NOT playing the game.
The only game genre in which story matters is RPG because they are based upon DnD but the story still doesn't need to be more complex than "You must stop the evil wizard who wants to conquer the world" for it to be a good game.