/lit/ - Literature

>>22751485

>>22751485
I love Julian Jaynes. I have a telegram group dedicated to Bill Gaede

https://t.me/+zJHXO8WYybQwZGJh

>>22751485
Jaynes is the endgame of consciousness discussion. Every time pseuds like Lex Fridman talk about consciousness I want to slap them in the face with a copy of Bicameral Mind. The definition of consciousness as “the ability to introspect” is already so much clearer than the gobbledygook about “muh qualia” and “muh experience” that it makes everyone else look, ironically, like schizos.

>>22751509
nigga what? You can be conscious and have no self-awareness or introspection. It’s just that the better memory you have and the better your ability to notice patterns, you start to develop identity. Other animals are probably conscious too, even if they don’t recognize themselves in a mirror or have thoughts

>>22751491
Thanks anon. A quick scan of the wiki page for this makes it seem like a pretty logical idea with interesting implications.

>>22751504
This Bill Gaede?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gaede

Is his critique of physics similar to Jayne's arguments?

>>22751509
>The definition of consciousness as “the ability to introspect”
introspection doesn't exist.

>>22751521
Not the guy you're replying to but Jaynes defines consciousness as self awareness and ability to introspect. Even if you disagree with that definition, his arguments still make sense in context. You can just replace the word consciousness with "introspecability" or something.

He doesn't include perception under the umbrella of his definition of consciousness.

>>22751530
It exists as a useful metaphor and the metaphor had to originate somewhere. That discussion is a large part of the book. He doesn't claim that there is a literal internal space where true objective introspection takes place.

>>22751527
He's critiquing the scientific method. I'm using his work to reassess psychology

>>22751527
This book will make you understand animal behavior much more. And many of the implications apply to humans, of course, so it can be a little unsettling. For example, this book theorizes that hug, kiss, and hold hands because these things are actually quite annoying, and so you couldn’t reliably fake such behavior with someone you didn’t truly love. When a dog eagerly jumps on you and pushes against you with his front legs, it is really just testing to see if you still like it enough. If you didn’t care about the dog you would brush it aside. A lot of our social behaviors are like this. For example when we insult our friends but not acquaintances. It’s strange when you really understand it all. We’re literally just monkeys

Iain McGilchrist takes this out of the fringe and places if centrally with The Master and His Emissary, no?

>>22751485
An anon recommended it me one time and I’ve been curious. What are its ideas in broad strokes?

>>22751485
Having read Jaynes, pic rel came first to mind

>>22751573
I'm definitely going to read that next sounds interesting.

>>22751608
Haven't read that yet and I wasnt aware of it but I'm adding it to the list.

>>22751638
The Wikipedia article isn't bad but the best intro is probably the afterward to the book that he wrote for the second edition. You can find it free on the internet archive.

He has two broad theories: 1) That consciousness is based on language; 2) that the state preceeding modern consciousness can be inferred from ancient sources and involved a kind of hallucinatory crosstalk between brain hemispheres that was interpreted as the voice of Goss

>>22751703
Thanks I'll check it out

>>22751573
Do you have Telegram / Discord? I am impressed with your recommendation

>atheists talking about consciousness
>atheists deifying consciousness

one day those idiots will leave judaism and move to buddhism

>>22751719
*voice of gods*

>>22751772
The book has nothing to do with deifying consciousness. It's describes the state preceeding the emergence of consciousness as having a component that was perceived as diety.

His views on the nature of the self are at least superficially similar to buddhism in that he claims that self is an ultimately illusory concept (albeit a useful one).

>>22751573
What book?

>>22751509
>the ability to introspect
It takes me less than an hour to write a computer program which can read its own code and its own execution environment. That doesn't make it experience anything. You're just another physicalist NPC who is afraid of the hard problem of consciousness.

>>22752048
Have sex, nerd.

>>22751485
>Radically Original Ideas
If you think thats novel you should hear what I research...
>I didn't really care about whether or not it was true.
Nevermind, my research has prerequisits and you dont meet them.

>>22751638
Here's a pertinent quote for you to get an idea:
"The Trojan War was directed by hallucinations. And the soldiers who were so directed were not at all like us. They were noble automatons who knew not what they did"

>>22751521
>you can be conscious and have no self-awareness or introspection
No you can’t
>even if they don’t recognize themselves in the mirror
That is not a show of consciousness. Jaynes disproves this in the book. He specifically points out you can train a bird to recognize itself in the mirror. Are you making it conscious?
>>22751530
No idea what you mean by this
>>22752048
That’s no more “introspection” than a rock facing a mirror.

>>22752059
>No you can’t
People like you confuse speaking English and ordering Uber Eats with consciousness, confusing yourself with intelligence or awareness. Use the term "qualia", its made for midwits who are not Psychologist. Theres level to this shit, Donald Hoffman, qualia<consciousness<cognition. Know where you are to know where you're not.

t.Evolutionary Cognitive Analyst
>mfs dont know shit like bacteria can communicate to higher lifeforms via humans
Youre not you, you never were...

lol.../lit/, take this to /sci/, please...

Hybridization of genomes producing polyphrenic entities. All humans are svhizophrenic, its fundemental to all life on Earth.

>>22752071
Where can I learn more about this?

>>22752070
Under Jaynes’s definition, no you cannot. Your language imprecise and I don’t know what you mean nor what you think I mean.

>>22752088
https://youtu.be/TQa08lXtWDY

His work is on the cellular to whole organism level, whereas mine is physiological level (organs) to whole body and globally in collective intelligence. Many overlapping research discoveries. Bioelectric for him and Biomagnetic for me.

After you've digesting his works come back and I can connect shit for you (a lot his lectures are about other shit you might not be interesyed in but Ive seen every video posted about him and to me everything in the universe is directly related to everything else...a little or a lot, IS.)

>>22752090
>Jaynes’s definition
I would lecture him on every field he researches, save for maybe nueroscience, as that wasnt a field I focused too much on in the medical side.

The rest I would be his teacher, full stop. He isnt even a Biologist or Physicist, which Biology is starting to reach into as the current understanding of the field, even in Psychology, Physics=Psychology...just is a very round about way that requires a heavy prerequisit knowledge base to see the connections.

>Your language imprecise
qualia<consciousness<cognition
You, qualia:
: |
Me, cognition:
: D

>>22751485
>I'm finding it hard to dismiss his idea that self awareness is constructed out of and dependant on visual language metaphors.
Animals with no language have passed the mirror test

>>22751573
I can tell by this single page that the book is a pile of libshittism crap
Remember kids, evolution is fake

>>22752117
All of his discriptions are cognitive or instinctual in nature, like "singing". Birds have it in their instincts, so a bird that knows its call well is in tune with its nature, practice isnt a part of it. Central nervous system acting without the need of a brain.

Its a sign of collective intelligence in working order.

>>22751530
Are you trolling me?

See I introspected

>>22752114
Tweet tweet creates a visual metaphor for birds

Look another bird etc, see where this goes?

>>22751573
>For example, this book theorizes that hug, kiss, and hold hands because these things are actually quite annoying,
Tell me you lived in a broken home without telling me you lived in a broken home

>>22752215
They are annoying if it's your only way of communicating.

>>22752215
holding hands with someone you don’t like is really unpleasant, retard. That’s the point. It’s only nice when you’re willing to make the sacrifice for someone you love.

>>22752215
"I am a normal member of society."
[one hour, at the end of each day, the pain session commences...to feel love]
https://coub.com/view/1to75k

>>22752104
hey dude you seem cool, is there somewhere where i can contact you?

>>22752656
If you are a schizophrenic savant I will fly thousands of mile to meet you.

>>22752680
https://t.me/+zJHXO8WYybQwZGJh

>>22752114
The book talks about this extensively, arguing that the ability to recognize one's image in a mirror is not the same as having an imagined internal "space" where one can introspect and converse with one's self.
Jaynes defines that imagined space as his definition of consciousness.

>>22751638
You know how your brain has two hemispheres? Well, Jaynes hypothesizes that gentile religions come from a time when the two lobes were not actually directly connected but instead routed through the "lizard brain", and as such had no direct interaction. Thus, humans would "focus" on one half of their brain at a time, and whenever the other one did anything they'd conceptualize it as a God, spirit, ancestor, etc talking to them. Thus, all humans were living in a semi-schizophrenic religious euphoria. Judaism came about when the corpus callossum (the mass of tissue that directly connects the two hemispheres) was evolved. His evidence for this is that the characters in the Iliad and Odyssey, and the oldest parts of the Old Testament, do not introspect or talk about their feelings, and believe in things like Muses or Divine Revelation.

This is complete and utter absurdity, to the point of being gibberish. The corpus callossum is found in all placental mammals (other organisms, like birds, have a far more developed anterior commissure, which humans do have but ours' are very small compared to theirs), and in fact humans have some of the weakest corpus callossi of all primates (tl;dr the speed of cross-hemisphere communication is determined by how "fatty" the corpus callossum is, and apes have "fattier" corpus callossi than we do). There's zero evidence to suggest that humans, or ANY placental mammals, have ever lacked a corpus callossum, which would result in attestation of near universal mental and physical illnesses resulting from lacking one.

>>22752717
>where one can introspect and converse with one's self
Sound like.........schismed perception.

>>22752053
I bet you feel really superior with your drive-by insults and peacocking, you effete faggot.

>>22752740
Secondly, there is actually a lot of introspection in Homer and in the earliest strata of the OT (the earliest parts of the OT are not actually the oldest in the text's internal narrative, however), and in other similarly ancient literature (such as the Epic of Gilgamesh). Jaynes argues that this "doesn't count" because this introspection and statement of internal states and feelings is done in the cultural context and theories of the mind other than those of 20th-century Descartianism, which Jaynes views as a 100% complete and total description of the mind and brain (for reference, Jaynes was writing in the 1970s and what exactly the pineal gland does wasn't even in the beginnings of being understood until the 1990s).

Thirdly, many people to this day describe creativity as occurring from "outside" of their minds (arguably the most famous modern proponent of this is Kanye West, who openly talks about how "God" rewards him with rap lyrics in return for him acting as "God's" agent in this world). Neuroscientifically, this is because the brain isn't a singular united whole but rather numerous interlocking interwoven systems that are all acting of their "own" accord and feeding into eachother, thus meaning that the part of the brain that "generates" things like rap lyrics is literally a separate part of the brain from the one that actually sings them or processes language (another example is how image processing is partially done in the optic nerve meaning that when you see something your mind has partially "already been made up" about it before the information actually enters the brain).

Jaynes counters this argument by proposing that the stated mentality is actually an indication of schizophrenia. Advances in neuroscience have demonstrated that this is not actually schizophrenia at all but is just the normal functioning of the brain (every neuron is, theoretically, an independent processing agent). Schizophrenia is, technically, the result of having a haywire dopamine learning-response (tl;dr they have no negative feedback to thoughts so they never believe that any of their thoughts are false, but when the rest of the brain notices this it assumes that the thoughts, which are false, must be coming from elsewhere, hence controllable hallucinations and "knowing that they are crazy").

>>22752114
Have they informed you of it? Or are you the Last Behaviorist?

>>22752740
Just to add to the bit about lacking a corpus callossum: here's a list of very obvious illnesses that would result from not having a corpus callossum. There's simply no archaeological or attested evidence of this. Surely if everyone was a fucking retarded hunchbacked cripple SOMEONE would have written it down, and none of the bodies that we've dug up have indications of the postural abnormalities or muscular dystrophy that accompanies these conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenesis_of_the_corpus_callosum

>>22752767
>drive-by insults
I was being 100% literal as his field is my field, I have little interest pouring out my life's work to people who will most likely reject it for not sounding like the introductory courses their used to or think it sounds cool because its entertainment for them.
>peacocking
You Havnt Seen Any Peacocking SO FAR.

>>22752740
For anyone curious, this post is not at all what is presented in the book. It is a huge deviation loosely based on general themes in the book.

>>22752680
Internet creep alert

>>22752780
The books thesis has nothing to do with missing brain structures. He accepts that the ancient brains hes referring to were identical to ours today, just that the cultural "software" (my word not his) they run is different today.

>>22752785
I'd love to hear about your ideas anon.

>>22752839
>Jaynes uses "bicameral" (two chambers) to describe a mental state in which the experiences and memories of the right hemisphere of the brain are transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations. The metaphor is based on the idea of lateralization of brain function although each half of a normal human brain is constantly communicating with the other through the corpus callosum. The metaphor is not meant to imply that the two halves of the bicameral brain were "cut off" from each other but that the bicameral mind was experienced as a different, non-conscious mental schema wherein volition in the face of novel stimuli was mediated through a linguistic control mechanism and experienced as auditory verbal hallucination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind
So, no, he's completely right, you're just butthurt because he demonstrated it as being outdated nonsense.

>>22752740
I have hands but no mammal before me used them to play leagu of legends

The corpus callosum being there and it being used to interconect metaphorical relations is not the same thing

>>22752848
>Internet creep
I creep in IRL.

Are you insane, can I come to your house and talk about...whatev?

>>22752859
I literally just put he book down yesterday.

There's no mention of Judaism or the development of the corpus callossum or the "lizard brain".

I'm not but hurt I'm just saying the post is littered with things that are not mentioned in the book at all and it should not be considered a reasonable synopsis of the book's ideas.

>>22752839
>>22752873
Sounds like you haven't read the book. You could check out the Wikipedia synopsis if that's quicker for you.

>>22752858
>The books thesis has nothing to do with missing brain structures
The lack of the corpus callossum is the central thesis as to why it the bicameral mind happens.

>He accepts that the ancient brains hes referring to were identical to ours today
No, he doesn't. That's the whole point: the brains were different. He argues that the corpus callossum evolved later, within written history.

>>22752886
I don't know what to say other than this is literally not what the book is about and in order to see that you'll have to actually pick up the book.

It does not contain a single mention of a new physical bran structure evolving and even insists that this isn't what happened

>>22752860
>The corpus callosum being there and it being used to interconect metaphorical relations is not the same thing
No, it is, because that's exactly what it does. Every part of the brain does things, the presence or absence of the brain leads to the presence or absence of mental phenomena. We know what happens if the corpus callossum isn't there, and it's not what Jaynes suggests happens, it's inability to move the body properly, incorrect posture, epilepsy, inability to use the eyes, cerebral palsy, improper vision processing, and hydrocephalus.

>>22752895
someone already linked the wikipedia article and demonstrated that you are wrong dude

you might as well stop while you are behind

>>22752895
You're wrong, but even if you weren't it doesn't really matter because the only way to actually induce Jaynes' bicameral mind would be to lack the part of the brain that connects the two sides, and we know that this wasn't the case.

>>22752901
>Every part of the brain does things, the presence or absence of the brain leads to the presence or absence of mental phenomena.

I have the same brain regions that painters use when they paint yet I cannot even use a paintbrush.

>We know what happens if the corpus callossum isn't there, and it's not what Jaynes suggests happens

Can you please link one (1) quote from the book where he claims anyone didn't have a corpus callossum?
It's not in the book a single time and has nothing to do with his argument.
He makes it clear he's talking about "software" on the "hardware", not the hardware itself.

>>22752927
>I have the same brain regions that painters use when they paint yet I cannot even use a paintbrush.
Then by definition you don't as you haven't learned how to use the paintbrush and thus shaped the necessary parts of your brain.
>okay but why doesn't that also apply to the corpus callossum?
The corpus callossum connecting the two hemispheres isn't the result of learning or neuroplasticity, it's just what it does. There are minimums, and doing this is one of the part's minimums. If it's present, it will do this. Something similar happens with audioprocessing.

>Can you please link one (1) quote from the book where he claims anyone didn't have a corpus callossum?
If you haven't read the book then you shouldn't be defending it, this is the core part of his thesis.

>He makes it clear he's talking about "software" on the "hardware", not the hardware itself.
You, and Jaynes, are mistaking what the "software" and "hardware" of the brain are.

>>22752927
>I have the same brain regions that painters use when they paint yet I cannot even use a paintbrush.
Does conscioisness only exist in the brain?

>>22752927
Heart...but no brain.

Can it still "Reee"?

>>22752943
This is like arguing about what Spiderman does in the Bible

It has no heart...but can it can bleed.

Can it weep without eyes?

>>22752981
Saint Peter? Was a normie nay-sayer the was bit a magic spirit and became a super hero written about in comic boom pages in churches all around the world?

>>22752981
Did you reply to the wrong post? This has nothing to do with what I said.

>>22752981
Dont think too hard about it, brains are for fools.

Here, take mine...you clearly need it.
:^)

>>22752901
Is not exactly what it does it just connects tissue, it doesn't connect chair the word to chair the visual imagery, you have to learn chair the word first.

>>22753211
>Is not exactly what it does it just connects tissue
And Jaynes argument is that there was nothing connecting tissue which resulted in his fantasy of the bronze age. We know what people who lack that tissue are like though, and it doesn't result in his bronze age fantasy.

>>22753292
His whole thing is that voices originating in the right hemisphere were transmitted to the left hemisphere and interpreted there as the voices of God's.

The whole thing hinges on the two being able to communicate and he literally never once mentiones the absence of a corpus callossum in anyone except patients in whom it's been cut, and only then to tease out differences in hemisphere function, not to try and say those patients mimic bicameraity.

Also, considering that monkey brains have corpus callussoms, do you really think he was stupid enough to be making the argument that they were lost and the revolved in the human lineage? That's not at all what he says in the book and it would be idiotic to say it.

At this point I'm going to assume your a troll unless you can link one (1) quote from the book claiming that anyone was ever without a corpus callossum.
The book is freely available on the internet archive and you are more than welcome to key word search it and find that what you're saying is never once mentioned in it.

>>22753385
>The whole thing hinges on the two being able to communicate
Indirectly. He theorizes that the two hemispheres communicated indirectly by passing through the anterior commissure into Wernicke's Area. This is why the "divine speech", the auditory hallucinations, is spoken rather than just known, because they aren't passing through the corpus callossum and are instead routing through the anterior commissure and Wernicke's area, exactly as was initially described. It isn't until the evolution of the corpus callossum that the right hemisphere's actions are directly interacting with the left hemisphere. The point is that what Jaynes is suggesting doesn't happen if you lack a corpus callossum as he suggests we did.

>Also, considering that monkey brains have corpus callussoms, do you really think he was stupid enough to be making the argument that they were lost and the revolved in the human lineage? That's not at all what he says in the book and it would be idiotic to say it.
Jaynes was a Unitarian Universalist pyschoanalyst writing in the 1970s, I assume that he didn't know much about how the brain worked.

I don't see why you don't just read what Jaynes himself says on the subject, the book is freely available on his website. Here, I'll even link you the relevant section.
https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/en/the-double-brain/
tl;dr the area filled by the corpus collossum had not been filled at the time ergo hemisphere communication was done via an alternative method that resulted in the "divine speech" of bronze age man's thoughts. I can't post a screenshot because it's a 17 paragraph argument about brains that you could have googled.

>>22753434
>>22753385
I like how as this thread goes on and the Jaynes-defenders learn more about what he actually believed he just becomes more of a crackpot lmfao

>>22752070
please say more about the bacteria communication thing. thats way more interesting than anything going on in this thread

Ignoring the book, is there anything to the "two consciousness" idea? I've heard about people with brain damage actually exhibiting contradictory behavior and responses in certain respects depending on the circumstances, like insisting their favorite color is red while selecting blue with their hands, or something like that.

>>22753488
Pretty sure he's just describing Star Wars.

>>22753516
>Pretty sure...
...that empires thousands of years apart couldnt have dedicated their capitals to each other...

>>22753400

>>22752927
This anon is right. He never ever says the corpus callosum as a physical entity evolved with our society.
If that's not true, surely someanon can quote the book, unless everyanon here is basing their dumb opinion on a wikipedia article.
The lizard brain also doesn't make an appearance

>>22753523
Seems that's just a schizo connection, multiple points on that map don't have anything there.

>>22753523
>each other...
...unless its one continuous empire, changing flags but the core remains.

Haha, what are these guys doing in China in the 1700's?! Ive seen them in North Korea too.

Funny how all the enemy nations complied with the pandemic...its almost like theyre all in on a big secret.

>"Eight percent of our DNA consists of remnants of ancient viruses."
https://www.cshl.edu/the-non-human-living-inside-of-you/

Who do you think His-Story is about?

>>22753530
Don't give it (you)s. If it wants a username it can go sign up for reddit.

>>22752886
>The lack of the corpus callossum is the central thesis as to why it the bicameral mind happens.
Wait, that's a lie, Jaynes basically suggests it's a result of language developing.

>>22753530
>on that map don't have anything there.
USE YOU BRAIN YOU RETATDED SUBHUMAN.

YOU APPROACH LIFE WAITING FOR INSTRUCTIONS LIKE A SLAVE.

>>22753558
Youre too fucking stupid to understand why "Anonymous" is an option...

So dumb fucks like; >>22753530

So when he reveals himself to be dumb, saying stupid shit in threads, he can simply go to a different one and pretend it never happened. The sad part is now he never has to stop being an utted failure...he can ignore is failings and LARP a smart and insight person...you know, JUST LIKE YOU.

LIARS.

>>22753523
what

Put name tags on and I will remind you of every retarded failing of your cognitive abilities every single thread I see you in.

TRY ME.

>>22753532
oh ok, you're insane. nvm

This reminds me of a question thread I've been wanting to make on /lit/ or /sci/ or /his/ for a while
never got around to it because I don't know where to make it or how to really write it either but it's basically along the lines of
>What's the most radically fringe/original ideas in history that turned out to be correct? Something so out there and far removed from the zeitgeist of it's time that it probably wouldn't have even existed if that one person didn't come up with it, but turned out to be proven correct.
So the question came to me when I was thinking of Democritus, the guy who proposed a kind of form of atomic theory in ancient Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism#Greek_atomism
turned out he learned it from someone else though. But then I guess it still applies to his teacher.

>>22753574
Youre retarded, USE YOUR BRAIN.

>>22753581
Youre not a doctor, stop LARPing (LYING) on the internet to feel like a winner. Youre a fucking loser and your dad should be flogged for producing a mockery of potential.

>>22753582
Plate tectonics, basically one of the last major scientific breakthroughs in human history, first truly developed in the 60's..... it was such an insane idea at the time, that it's difficult to understand how revolutionary it is, the idea that our continents are basically drifting on semi-liquid rock.

>>22753582
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism#Greek_atomism
Ken Wheeler mentioned Greeks having a Unified Theory of Everything and I have found the same thing, the linguistics changed but the meaning was always virtually the same. The human body is a measure of reality and "ascended" people are able to measure it more accurately. Many religions focus on one aspect and their mode of thinking and way of doing things (if formed correctly) will be thehuman expression of that fundemental aspect of reality, including base Phsyics.

Fractal, ergo, Universal. Uni-verse-ity. One verse (thought), all is one.

>>22753619
Don't think that anon wanted a schizo awnser.

>>22753623
>Don't think
You never have.
>schizo
YOU LITERALLY CANNOT STOP LYING.

Youre not doctor, mathematician or physicist...this is /lit/, youre a fucking troglodyte compared to me.

Everyone wants to "be smarter", nobody wants to attend thousands and thousands of hours of lectures...

>>22753528
We has pretty clearly using "lizard brain" to simplify things.

>>22753641
>nobody wants to attend thousands and thousands of hours of lectures...
You should have just picked one single subject, a books, documentary, etc and just gone over it again and again. Reminder, more is always less....

>>22753605
>>22753582
It's not as "ROFL how KOOKY" as Plate Tectonics, but Germ Theory, the brain doing literally anything at all, essentially all of quantum mechanics, and the gut microbiome are all good examples. In mathematics people tried to have Cantor committed to an asylum when he proposed that there were multiple infinities, and Fritz Zwicky was literally laughed out of the room when he proposed Dark Matter to the physics community for the first time.

>>22753650
>You should have just picked one single subject
Why would I listen to an idiot. University used to teach ALL subjects.

>>22753619
>Fractal, ergo, Universal. Uni-verse-ity. One verse (thought), all is one.

Youre a master of nothing amd a jack of none.

Youre not a doctor of any kind...stop lying to yourself thats youre smart and strong and brave, youre none of those.

"Delusional comes from a Latin word meaning "deceiving"." You are self deceiving for feel-good moments, raux wins.

Lobster wins that were never real except in your deluded mind.

t.DOCTOR MEANS DOCTOR

Now, you'll have to excuse me...I have duck ramen to eat before bed time. Its 5:49AM here is Hokkaido, Japan.

:D

>>22753701
wow... poultry

>>22753957
>poultry
Paltry*, ftfy.

Im used to the finer things...but alas...one needs the bitter to balance out the sweet. Woe is me...

>>22753991
no, poultry. I just had a $700 meal last night, I don't care about the fish scraps you ate in may.

>>22754025
>$700 meal
Post Bugatti.
>fish scraps
15 course meal in Copenhagen, whatev.

>>22754041
lmao only poors take pictures of their food like it's something to brag about. I made a caramel dome once for a gateau in a cage cake when I was a kid—only time I've ever bothered to photograph food.

Keep us informed on your consumption habits, will you?

>>22754077
>pictures of their food
I said Bugatti...show me your BUGATTI.

POST PHOTO.

>>22754088

>>22754093
>1938_Rolls-Royce_Wraith_s(...).jpg
Post pictures you took yourself or of your things...stop "wanting" to be better and get out there and Become better.

Every day you will either improve or stagnate, but nature is constantly improving against you, so standing still is the same as falling behind.

>>22754111
that is my car

>>22754123
Youre not lying to me...youre lying to yourself.

>>22753701
>"Delusional comes from a Latin word meaning "deceiving"." You are self deceiving for feel-good moments, faux wins.

Stop wishing were someone you youre proud of and go become that someone...through adventure, pain and loss, triumph, entering the unknown...real danger.

Start today...do something you always wanted to do.

>>22754386
yeah that's my picture bro

>>22753292
The word estructure anon

Hominids still struggle with the abstract architecture of god representations not even god itself imagine for a bronze age corpus callosus

>>22753605
>>22753656
Are you sure about the plate tectonics? Seems like it was a natural evolution of continental drift and a slow realization over decades, and backed up with lots of measurements datasets and new evidence. And continental drift was a natural evolution of looking at a map and putting two and two together. Wagner wasnt even the first to propose it in the early 1900s, it has been noted since the late 1500s pretty much as soon as they had maps of the two Atlantic coasts.
Plate tectonics seems like a theory that is the exact OPPOSITE, it didnt come out of nowhere from the mind of one guy, it was a product of its time built through community collaboration. And as for continental drift, it seems there were plenty of people realizing it around the same time.
>Apart from the earlier speculations mentioned above, the idea that the American continents had once formed a single landmass with Eurasia and Africa was postulated by several scientists before Alfred Wegener's 1912 paper. Although Wegener's theory was formed independently and was more complete than those of his predecessors, Wegener later credited a number of past authors with similar ideas: Franklin Coxworthy (between 1848 and 1890), Roberto Mantovani (between 1889 and 1909), William Henry Pickering (1907) and Frank Bursley Taylor (1908).

>>22753643
It doesn't simplify anything other than showing that he hasn't actually read or understood the book.

There is nothing in the book that could be compared to the concept of lizard brain. He's talking about uniquely human frontal lobe properties the entire time.

>>22753528
Even the linked Wikipedia excerpt clearly doesn't suggest that the corpus colossum wasn't there. I'm beginning to think this thread is full or trolls. Or possibly illiterate retards. I haven't even read the book, but these arguments are pure retard-tier hard materialist rationalization. The fact they can't provide a single quote from the book tells you everything you need to know.

>>22752740
>There's zero evidence to suggest that humans, or ANY placental mammals, have ever lacked a corpus callossum,
>NOOO WE DONT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE NOOOOOOO IT CAN'T BE TRUEE AIEEEEEE

>>22755716
Is a recent meme book, they just don't read it not enough twitch streamers talking about it

I don't know whether the thread is full of trolls. I just know the central thesis of "Bicameral Mind" sounds like new-age cancer, and it seems absurd that humans could undergo such a major change simultaneously all around the world without a serious underlying physical change, which literally couldn't spread over the world in that same time span. It's likelier to me that we'be been oversocialized during the process of urbanization, if anything.
>"But how do you explain spirit voices?"
I don't know but I also don't buy the reasons I've seen cited from the book. They remind me of Ancient Aliens literalism.
The book just seems to be outdated boomer-tier garbage. We basically now know animals are conscious. That blows a hole in one of its main themes.
I'm a little tipsy and spilling my entire collected sentiments of vague dislike for the book, so the post might not be coherent. Anyways, reading these summaries reminds me of the time /lit/ conned me into reading The Golden Bough. I'd rather read woke garbage than this kind of dated LARP anthropology. If you want to read higher-quality old-school anthropology, read Dumézil or Eliade, or more recently Humbach's work on Zoroaster

>>22755803
Let's use this example

I wasn't born an english speaker and one of the first phrases I heard in english was

"I'll be back"

So the words repeated in my head like they didn't belonged to me

Was this the T-100 talking to me or just the neurological effect of complex information who's meaning my brain wanted to decipher?

>>22755803
>I don't know whether the thread is full of trolls.
I sure hope Im not in that list...I could info dump you and your professor with a lethal amount of citations.

>Dumézil
I have everything he has unded his belt and more, namely Cognition, Physiology and Evolutionary Biology...the roots of all of his fields of research, and Physics...the roots of the roots.

>Eliade
>Romanian historian of religion and fiction writer
smug_Han_Solo_face.jpg


>Humbach's
>Helmut Humbach's research focused on pre-Islamic languages and the history of Iran , Afghanistan and Central Asia .
Aight, he has what I dont really have too focus on, but my works mirror his. Heavy Linguistics, Mythos, Theology, Psychology and how each of those interrelate with each other.

>"But how do you explain spirit voices?"
>I don't know
I do.
>What is it.
You dont meet the prerequisits for my lectures, sorry, not even your authors do...

BioPhysics+Evolutionary Biology+Phenomenology.

Come back to me when youre read up on these...until then youre a blind man asking to be shown the stars.

Oh...and the fields are advancing, dont dick around too long in the fundementals.
https://youtu.be/ZmRaIQOlxTY

>>22755899
>Afghanistan and Central Asia
Speaking of which, I highly recommend travel here, still "real backpacker TM" shit like how SE Asia was 20 years ago.

>>22755067
>It doesn't simplify anything other than showing that he hasn't actually read or understood the book.
He quoted it repeatedly, anon.

>There is nothing in the book that could be compared to the concept of lizard brain
See >>22753434

>>22753434
>through the anterior commissure into Wernicke's Area. This is why the "divine speech", the auditory hallucinations
He is describing Schisophrenia, not "devine revelation".

I hinted at it here; >>22753523

Environmental BioPhysics communicating through the magnetic field of the planet to signal back and forth to the rest of the environment.

Bee flies did not observe bees to mimic them over the course of countless millenia, their morphology conformed to the external pressures interpreted on a deeply subconscious (but not always) level.

>>22756356
This understanding of evolution is like claiming that the deep subconscious of someone who shuffles a deck of cards effects what card ends up on the top of the deck.

Why implicate mind where simple selection can explain something?
It doesn't seem to add anything and needlessly complicates things.

>>22756380
>This understanding of evolution...
Yes. Depending if youre trained for it. I am.

Turning off the brain when making actions, using the central nervous system/heart to make actions and decisions. Down to the very page of a book randomly opened.

This will not work for you...you are trained to used conscious qualia to choose the moment, thus it is not a "subconscious decision". This is why seers have always existed, Oracle of Delphi etc.

>Why implicate mind where simple selection can explain something?
Bingo. Youre still thinking with your brain. Its sort of like "the one experiencing things thinks its in control", but youre probably guided by impusles far more than you ever wanted to know.

Psychologically, rationalizing the actions after the decision was made subconsciosly.

https://youtu.be/J1RSPy9MdBc

>>22752972
Do yu truly believe one "isnt experiencing life" without a brain?

https://youtu.be/mPcEjZ3__E0

>It doesn't seem to add anything and needlessly complicates things.
It is you that is adding things, I am removing them. I remove the part that believes it is in control because it is the one the "experiences" it...Me.

>>22756410
>"subconscious decision"
Also, the closer to conscious the more polluted with propaganda and nonsense you have aquired from TV and other pollutants. The more it becomes the person you believe you are because of the people you are around than who you really are.

Your instincts are blind to such delusions.

You must die to be reborne.

>>22752958
I post far more information than you people can digest....

>>22756429
Not really, you just said phenomology like it meant something and went on a rant about bio determinism

>>22756438
Phenomenology my bad

See I spent more time in it than you

>>22756438
>Not really
Lol, shut the fuck you remedial dropout.

This is cutting edge research from Tufts University rewritting the concept of evolution and genomics.......

STOP LARPING TO SAVE FACE....THIS IS WHY YOU ARE A FAILURE.

>phenomology like it meant something
The interpretstion of Physiology.

THESE ARE NOT JIST "WORDS".

Why is all of /lit/ illiterate....Jesus, what the fuck...

>bio determinism
Evolutionary Cognition.

DO YOU NEED A BOOK TO HELP YOU OUT?

USE THIS ONE TO LEARN ENGLISH FIRST YOU ILLITERATE JACKASS.

>>22756449
Calm down son is just your life work

Interpretation of physiology

Ok this got funny, let's find the phisiological house of your spirit

Ok I think I got you

You are a hardcore materialist ans will use biology as the reason for everything not inert

Will correlate anything with anything else without regards like a dogmatic teologist who blames god for the universe you will assume causation and correlation in biology

Therefore if bug does thing with, humans must do thing with and will be equivalent

>>22756467
>Ok this got funny
Youre an emotional based reactionary, youre not thinking with any brain, purely a pleasure seeking, biochemical, addict.

Get away from me you degenerate junkie, get your two-cents of parasitism needs from the TV you cognitive vampire.

>You do all the thinking and Ill just laugh like a class clown at whatever I can.

Your brain has atrophied from lack of use, offloading thinking to save energy...a literal parasite of society...

>>22756513
At least you acknlwledge emotions

We can work with that

Are they biological in nature or abstract concepts of the metaphorical nature of perception?

>>22756506
>materialist
BioPhysics.

>But thats material and stuff, or whatev
Take your delusional ideation detached from reality away from me you mentally ill failure of evolution.

Your mind is polluted with retarded concepts fomented by midwits you worship as your surrogate fathrr figure.

>Will correlate anything with anything else
BULLS EYE. You are.

"Im not Physics, Im a Me. Independent of all of reality, thats science and logic and truth."

THATS RELIGIOUN WITHOUT SOUL.

> like a dogmatic teologist
Hi, Pot, Im Kettle.

Not reading the rest, its just feces from the mouth.

>>22756528
Yep bio stuck

Am a product of context not a product of a complex ride of decision making, I never had choices I had determininistic obligations

>>22756540
>I never had choices
Literal Biological Automaton.
>Yep bio stuck

*ahem*....

HI, POT, IM KETTLE, I WILL TYPE IS CAPS NOW.

THIS IT TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND "WORD".

DO YOU UNDERSTAND "WORD"?

TYPE YES OR NO.

This is a great example of how threads wither and die

>>22756550
>every post is a trolls means to derail
>blame the guy that knows the subject better than the authors of the books cited
Yeah, I should have just sucked their dick when they spit in my face, thats how you defend scientific facts on /lit/, where reality is, like, an opinion, man...

The fact people like you watch shitheads act a fool and Literally Cannot See Their Disrespect is the reason I would slap the drink out of your hand in front of your friends or family.

Its earned...you simply are a degenerate that cant smell the shit because it wafts from you too.

>>22756571
You seriously believe that because you can research behavior of bio components it is a biological issue and the book is about people talking inside their heads

Maybe just maybe you should take your own studies on formation of language seriously

>>22752740
this post is the retarded version of the critique, basically a ridiculous straw man
>>22752771
this one is little better and more nuanced. but still often misses the point of what Jaynes is arguing.

>>22752886
>You could check out the Wikipedia synopsis if that's quicker for you.
Your only source on the book is the Wikipedia synopsis.

>>22752904
>stop talking! he heckin linked the Wikipedia article
do zoomers really?

I can almost 100% guarantee this book is wrong just by the date of publication

>>22752943
>If you haven't read the book then you shouldn't be defending it, this is the core part of his thesis.
Nigger SHUT THE FUCK UP. You have NEVER read the book. All you've done is skim a poorly-written Wikipedia article, and all you have is the unfounded arrogance that you understand the book better than the people who have read it.

Just quote the book. Go on. Quote the fucking book. You won't because you're barely literate and would get lost in the PDF.

>>22756641
>Maybe just maybe you should take your own studies on formation of language seriously
Literally a Mathematical Linguist...

His work sounds surface level and external in perspective, too much anthropomorphising and a thin understand of cognition to the point it doesnt sound like he can discern any cognitive differences between evolutionarily different species. A midwit depth of insight.

Existence is universal but experience isnt. I understand the fields related to this book better than him, Im more rhan certain about that.

>How do you know?
Because professors in a number of fields are pushing the same ideas and theyre being called groundbreaking.

ITS MY JOB TO KNOW.

>>22756677
>same ideas as I am*

I posted his works...you wont attend his lectures because thats brain-work and emotional knee-jerk reactionaries dont like that.

They prefer the smug certainty of self delusion.

Lobster claws up, never down, smile no matter what and youre never wrong about anything!

>>22756677
Oh look a trend in science can't wait for the next trend in science

Deal with real factors, if all humans vanish, does literature keeps going?

If it does is not a biological thing

>>22756691
>Deal with real factors
Sorry, I dont subscribe to you religion.
>if all humans vanish, does literature keeps going
I said Im not interested in The New News.
>If it does is not a biological thing
I dont speak delusion, sorry.


Go To Class, Stop LARPing Online.

>>22753434
>Jaynes was a Unitarian Universalist pyschoanalyst writing in the 1970s, I assume that he didn't know much about how the brain worked.
He wasn't some random psychoanalyst (implying he was a leftover Freudian hack—which is what a psychonanalyst is). He was a psychologist who with a graduate degree from Yale University, specializing in the study of consciousness. He lectured at Princeton University for decades while keeping up to date with the neuroscientific research of his era. His book PREDICTED functions that would later be confirmed by neuroscience (he wasn't always right, but he had a firm knack for intuition). To this day, his descriptions and analyses of consciousness are so powerful and elaborate that they are quoted VERBATIM in psychology textbooks across the country, including the introductory psychology textbook used at Harvard University (at least in the course taught by Professor Daniel Gilbert).

In short, you are a fucking RETARDED NIGGER who has ZERO grasp on the subject. You're an agent of chaos who brings nothing of value to the world, literally making shit up for no discernible reason except to win an imaginary argument. You are COMPLETELY out of your depth, and I hope you get your skull caved in before you pollute the world with any more noise.

>>22756702
Am sorry does the fact that chatbots exist bother you?

You don't consider that they might disregard bio definitions and use words their own way?

>>22753434
>>22756252
>https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/en/the-double-brain/
1. Jaynes never said that the corpus callosum area "wasn't filled in." It was always there, at least in humans. His argument is that it received additional functions (and thus additional growth) in the presence of a sufficiently developed culture.
2. The link doesn't even fully display the chapter. Most of it is behind a paywall. This pseud didn't even read the source he "used" to argue with, let alone quote anything from it.

>>22756730
obnoxious namefag is a malignant narcissist but too stupid to tripfag, so of course it bothers him—everything bother hims—the dude exists in a perpetual state of butthurt.

>>22756745
>His argument is that it received additional functions (and thus additional growth) in the presence of a sufficiently developed culture.
So exactly what the anon said.

>The link doesn't even fully display the chapter.
It's on libgen, not that it matters because the portion that he cited directly addresses the argument.

>This pseud didn't even read the source
Well he did say
>I can't post a screenshot because it's a 17 paragraph argument about brains that you could have googled.
So, no, it seems like he did in fact read it given that he cited it.

>>22756830
kek

>>22756730
>You don't consider that they might disregard bio definitions and use words their own way?
Mathematical Linguist means youre quasi-illiterate to me.

Kind of prove me right since your butthurt makes you unable to consciously percieve half my posts because youre so enthralled in your emotional experience.

Classic response, read half a post, grab onto anything to can be interpreted in any way that invalidates anything else said and move on, never address the post EVER.

In the response...do it again.

This is chatbot behavior...emotional narrative is talking to me, its not a human, its a living expereince on the internet.

>>22756714
>>22756745
>>22756676
>okay so you directly refuted the author's entire argument regarding a book that you have read and i havent and i have no actual response or rebuttal and that makes me mad >:(
I accept your concession.

>>22756862
Yes it is made it with my terrible personality not to adress the whole of your argumentation but an agenda running non on parallel to the debate at hand

Still has to adress some of your arguments or you won't reply to emotionally is not bio emotion is abstract conception of methaporical communication

It was mean of me, I still think bio determinism is dumb

>>22756832
>So exactly what the anon said.
No, not at all what the anon said. Anon said that Julian Jaynes thinks the corpus callosum evolved 3000 years ago: >>22752740
>Judaism came about when the corpus callossum (the mass of tissue that directly connects the two hemispheres) was evolved.
Which is completely bullshit. Jaynes never said that. I'd call it a gross, perhaps illiterate, misreading (on the scale of your own misreading in this thread), but that generously assumes that that anon even read the book.
>It's on libgen, not that it matters because the portion that he cited directly addresses the argument.
No, it absolutely does not. There's zero evidence for anon's claims in the handful of pages available on that website.
>So, no, it seems like he did in fact read it given that he cited it.
He's operating off of vagueness because there's zero information, whether it is the gist of the argument or any specific details in the argument, that can be used to support the hypothesis that Jaynes thinks the corpus callosum only evolved 3000 years ago in humans. It's COMPLETE RUBBISH.
>>22756877
There is no concession to be made, because you never addressed Jaynes's argument. You cobbled a half-baked strawman from a Wikipedia article and some Googling that had nothing to do with what Jaynes advanced in his book. You are a prideful ignoramus jousting with your headcanon.

Sorry, everyone. I just realized I'm a worthless shitheel with no business being on this site.

I ran out of salmon pictures and now I . . . I just don't know what to do with my petty life. I could keep posting pseud larps, but it just doesn't hit the same when everyone in the thread can detect how shallow and un-insightful I am. Most of my quasi-intellectual posts are BAZINGA-tier quips, but, this thread has gone on for 150 posts and now everyone is aware I'm starting to repeat myself. My script is short . . . I'm so embarrassed.

Again, sorry everyone.

>>22756905
>There is no concession to be made,
Your entire argument has been that Jaynes did not in fact discuss the Corpus Callossum at all. But in in >>22756745 you said
>His argument is that it received additional functions (and thus additional growth) in the presence of a sufficiently developed culture.
So, your entire argument was conceded.

If you have evidence that there was a time when the human Corpus Callossum was absent or not present, then post it. Until then, stop having a temper tantrum because no one wants to see it.

>>22751485
theory of prose by shklovsky

>>22752717
I wouldn't try reasoning with those who just don't get it. When I got into Jayne's work and tried to share it, people would repeatedly ignore half of what I said to handwave the other half.

>>22756911
I've been taking bpc-157 to heal my brain from zygosis recently and it appears to be stimulating parts of the brain that were active during muh episode. You might want to check it out, I got mine in capsule form off limitless, $300 for about a month supply at 500mcg

>>22756969
Given this thread I can see why, this is peak schizobait.

>>22751504
Is there a good discord based around the bicameral mind and concepts like metaphrands?

So if humans once had a bicameral mind how did the changeover to the current non-bicameral mind happen? If it was a genetic mutation they should be able to find evidence in the human genome and also by examining DNA from ancient people.

>>22757027
The book argues it was primarily a cultural shift, not a biological one, and that it may have been reinforced by the wars and genocides of the bronze age collapse.

>>22757027
They still do, but it's muffled by modern technology

>>22756938
>Your entire argument has been that Jaynes did not in fact discuss the Corpus Callossum at all.
I never said that .And I'm pretty sure that nobody else in the thread said that either. Again, you're making things up now.

HOWEVER, you might have been confused when somebody mentioned that Jaynes never used the phrase "lizard brain" nor discussed anything akin to what that metaphor means. I understand if you get confused anon, as there might be too many moving parts for you to understand what's going on.

>If you have evidence that there was a time when the human Corpus Callossum was absent or not present, then post it.
NOBODY has been arguing this. Not a single person in this thread has pushed this view forward. It's solely a product of your own retarded headcanon when you initially tried debunking Jaynes based off of skimming a Wikipedia page. You're out of your element here.

>>22757065
Yeah the book argues that the 5g frequencies emitted by cell towers block our lizard brain thereby muffling the Bicameral gods who reside in the recently evolved corpus collossum.

No need for anyone to read the book we here a 4chan.org/lit/ already deboinked it as schizo trash made by a repressed homosexuality sublimating his sexual desires.

>>22757045
If people are still born with bicameral capable minds it should be easy to demonstrate scientifically

>>22757090
He talks about this in the book, drawing many parallels to early childhood experiences, schizophrenia, and even lesser talked about mental behaviors of health people that all may be traces of Bicameral mentality.

You ate welcome to read the book if you like. It's a whole book written just on this topic.

>>22757090
You'd have to do brain scans of humans from pre-literate societies who exhibit the kinds of behaviors that Jaynes talks about in the beginning of the book and compare their neural structures with humans from modern societies. So, that would be a pain and a half to figure out in a scientific study. Imagine trying to get a Sentinelese Islander to consent to a brain scan lmao.

>>22757027
Jaynes posits consciousness to not be so much a genetic development as emergent from the recent cultural and linguistic framework one is raised in. I think he does mention some epigenetic changes that could've occured over a few generations, but consciousness is generally downstream of modern language.

>>22757027
People started cooking in iron instead of what they cooked in before.

>>22757202
That's why they call it the bronze age collapse cause all the bronze pots fell over and they had to make new iron ones

>>22757068
>I never said that
See >>22752839 and >>22752873.

>NOBODY has been arguing this.
This has been your entire argument through the thread, and I have already quoted your posts about this.

>Not a single person in this thread has pushed this view forward.
You should read the thread before having an opinion on it: you've already done this with a book and got BTFOd on it, one would think that you'd have learned your lesson.

>>22757194
>consciousness is generally downstream of modern language.
Materialist claptrap, just like this faggot talking about brains. Consciousness has nothing to do with brains or minds you fucking hylics.

MORE ORIGINAL THAN COGENT, BUT NOT ENTIRELY FALLACIOUS.

>>22757090
Well, as was already mentioned in the thread, nothing Jaynes attributes to a lack of communication between the two sides of the brain actually occurs when they can't communicate.

>>22757027
It is described as a shift in how people perceived the mind rather than a physical change

>>22757254
There's a really great book on this topic called "the Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by a man named Julian jaynes.

I bet you would enjoy reading it because in it he never once claims that Bicameral thinking is a result of the two hemispheres not communicating. In fact, to the contrary, as mentioned like 15 times in this thread, the whole theory hinges on the idea that signals from the right hemisphere were **communicated** to the left where they were interpreted as the voices of gods or dead ancestors.

How neat! I bet you would love reading that book and it would really help you more coherently argue your points in this thread.

Formal logic is needed for formal introspection. The idea of an objective perspective probably needed theatre to emerge. Nobody is exposed to it in life except in theatre.
If you were raised with no human contact you would be feral, a psycho that can barely learn basic language.

>>22757248
Define consciousness.

>>22757295
Introspection

The inside looking out

>>22757284
>I bet you would enjoy reading it because in it he never once claims that Bicameral thinking is a result of the two hemispheres not communicating
Actually, if you read the book, he does. The passage was already linked in >>22753434.
https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/en/the-double-brain/

>>22757295
The internal cognizance of experienced introspection.

>>22757248
Anti science trash.

OP you should read The Master & His Emissary, and the guy's other books. They're all 50000 pages long but he's one of the real original thinkers of the last 30 years in my opinion

Also that guy Porges on the polyvagal hypothesis is really interesting

>>22757284
>the whole theory hinges on the idea that signals from the right hemisphere were **communicated** to the left where they were interpreted as the voices of gods or dead ancestors.
Right like the other anon said by going through wernickes area and the anterior commissure because there wasn't a corpus callossum at the time, which you were denying Jaynes said until he made you look stupid by showing where Jaynes actually does say what he said that he said.

>>22757307
>If so, we might expect that there would have to be certain tracts by which the bicameral voices would relate between the right nondominant temporal lobe and the left. The major interconnection between the hemispheres is of course the huge corpus callosum of over two million fibers. But the temporal lobes in men have their own private callosum, so to speak, the much smaller anterior commissures. In rats and dogs, the anterior commissures connect the olfactory parts of the brain. But in men, as seen in my rather imprecise sketch, this transverse band of fibers collects from most of the temporal lobe cortex but particularly the middle gyrus of the temporal lobe included in Wernicke’s area, and then squeezes into a tract only slightly more than one eighth of an inch in diameter as it plunges over the amygdala across the top of the hypothalamus toward the other temporal lobe. Here then, I suggest, is the tiny bridge across which came the directions which built our civilizations and founded the world’s religions, where gods spoke to men and were obeyed because they were human volition.

How cool and neat! Like 3 paragraphs into the article you linked and he's already talking about the two hemispheres communicating in Bicameral thinking!

Now we, as reasonable men, can finally agree that nowhere in jaynes is he saying the hemispheres aren't communicating and that, to the contrary, he's saying that they are!

>>22757307
This is interesting because they really don't communicate all the time

>>22757320
I read the article and still haven't seen a single quote claiming that anyone anywhere didn't have a corpus collossum aside from modern epileptics who have had it cut.

Can you please quote one single sentence where he is saying the corpus collossum was absent so we can move on?

>>22757324
>How cool and neat! Like 3 paragraphs into the article you linked and he's already talking about the two hemispheres communicating in Bicameral thinking!
Right, by not going through the corpus callossum, as was originally stated.

>can finally agree that nowhere in jaynes is he saying the hemispheres aren't communicating
No one ever said this except you.

>>22757324
You are literally the only person in the entire thread who has talked about the two hemispheres not communicating at all, and even then you only did so to move the goalposts after he explained to you what Jaynes actual proposal was in light of you not knowing what the fuck Jaynes is suggesting.

>>22757333
It's not a sentence, it's 17 paragraphs in a subchapter explaining how the hemispheres communicate by looping through two areas of the brain instead of the corpus callossum (which bicameral minds don't use). The entire reason why this happens is because the corpus callossum is either entirely absent or was so underdeveloped as to be basically absent. Jaynes talks about this later when he gets into hemisphere inhibition and schizophrenia (pic related).

I suppose you could make the argument that the corpus callossum was present, it just wasn't used. That doesn't happen with any other parts of the brain, everything in it does something so we have no examples to compare this to, but you could argue that it was present and just didn't turn on until something something cultural norms around introspection occurred. But that's not what the dude who hasn't read the book is trying to argue (not that he's really sure what he's trying to argue as his first "Argument" was that Jaynes wasn't providing an alternative to action across the corpus callossum at all).

>>22757357
See
>>22757254

>>22757237
None of those posts claim what you think they claim. I don’t know if you’re retarded, desperate, or trolling. But at this point I don’t care. You’ve never quoted anything that would prove any of the claims you’ve made in this thread. All you do is vaguely notion to a post or a chapter, only for a cursory examination to show that it says nothing that you claim it to say. I’m genuinely worried for you anon, as you might have brain damage or a mental disorder.

>>22757385
Presumably he meant communicating through the corpus callossum given that this is what the guy he was responding to was talking about, but Jaynes DOES actually talk about a total lack of communication between the two sides in his portion on schizophrenia.

>>22757378
>The entire reason why this happens is because the corpus callossum is either entirely absent or was so underdeveloped as to be basically absent.
Post ONE quote, just ONE, of Jaynes directly saying this or claiming this.
>the corpus callossum is thicker in schizophrenic patients
does not mean that it’s completely absent or almost absent in normal human beings. You’re grasping for straws so hard it’s not even funny.

>>22757414
I like how your argument keeps changing every time someone actually posts sources from this book lmfao. Maybe you shouldn't have been so hotheaded about what's in a book that you haven't read?

>>22757426
Why does the bicameral mind route through wernicke's area and the anterior commissure if it can just use the corpus callossum?

>>22757432
My argument has never changed. My sole argument is that that anon is completely wrong about Jaynes, e.g. Jaynes never claimed that the CC evolved 3000 years ago. I’ve never strayed from this fact.

>>22757452
So then what's your special snowflake take on why wernicke's area is used instead of the corpus callossum and why didn't you just say that instead of trying to argue that Jaynes didn't say what he said?

>>22757464
>why didn't you just say that
I've been saying that this whole time, you illiterate neanderthal.
>>22756676
>>22756745
>>22756905
If you can't successfully read a post on an imageboard, then you have no business reading Jaynes desu.

>walk into the the /lit/ tavern
>walk past table
>two guys are screaming YOU BLOODY BASTARD FUCK YOU BLOODY at eachother
>listen in as i pass by
>argument is apparently over julian jaynes
>go to the bar
>bartender: "They've been at it all day"
>order a shitpost cocktail

>>22757445
Because is the areas who control language

>Consciousness originated when people hecking stopped hearing voices in their heads!
>If you're religious or schizophrenic, then you're not REALLY conscious! Really you're more like an animal, wink wink
Sounds like a dehumanizing ivory tower take to me

>>22757763
>>22757743
You didn't answer the question: Jaynes theory is that the bicameral brain routes thought from the right-hemisphere to the left-hemisphere via the right Wernicke's Area through the Anterior Commissure into the left Wernicke's Area and then into the left-hemisphere, instead of just going through the Corpus Callossum. The anon that you got upset about said this, you claimed that Jaynes said otherwise, and then when you got called out on it you shifted the goalposts and said that actually it's not about the corpus callossum being absent.

So why then? Why does it do this? Let's just ignore that Jaynes says "because the Corpus Callossum was either absent or not well developed" because you threw a temper tantrum about how Jaynes' book doesn't count, why do YOU think that the bicameral mind uses the Wernicke's-Commissure route instead of just going through the Corpus Callossum?

>>22757763
>>22757743
You didn't answer the question: Jaynes theory is that the bicameral brain routes thought from the right-hemisphere to the left-hemisphere via the Anterior Commissure into the Wernicke's Area and then into the left-hemisphere, instead of just going through the Corpus Callossum which is how it works in unicameral brains. The anon that you got upset at said that Jaynes said this, you claimed that Jaynes said otherwise, and then when you got called out on it you shifted the goalposts and said that actually it's not about the corpus callossum being absent.

So why then? Why does it do this? Let's just ignore that Jaynes says "because the Corpus Callossum was either absent or not well developed" because you threw a temper tantrum about how Jaynes' book doesn't count, why do YOU think that the bicameral mind uses the Wernicke's-Commissure route instead of just going through the Corpus Callossum?

>>22757821
Ok one there's over 200 posts some are not mine, second the point here is that the organ being there and the function of higher cognitive recognition being there is not the same thing, you can check the thread but I said that already, hands and league of legend not done before my lifetime

Can someone summarize what we're even arguing about at this point.

I fee like we're not even talking about the same things.

>>22757839
>the organ being there and the function of higher cognitive recognition being there is not the same thing
The organ directly causes the cognition, which is why the first anon posted the list of things that go wrong if you don't have a Corpus Callossum (or not enough, because it's technically just a mass of neurons connecting the hemispheres). You're basically arguing that blood can pump through the body without a heart or some kind of heart-like approximant. Even if you're a Cartesian you still have to have that part of the brain in the brain to channel the soul or for the little man in your Pineal Gland to operate.

Not that his actually explains why the brain even has to do any of this Wernicke stuff in the first place if it could just use the Corpus Callossum.

>>22757854
Ok what I can gather, they sperged about the corpus callosum communicating the two hemispheres because our friends at wikipedia did a terrible job as usual, then while explaining that developing the connection between what brain parts relate to each other humans optimized introspective thought, that's one line of thought, there's plenty more, like why we perceive the enviroment as talking to us

>>22757862
Ok anon once again, multiple innovative uses of the same thing

Is technically evolution but is confusing if you as Jaynes consider evolution a merely biological side effect

>>22757854
>>22757871
See >>22752740. Julian Jaynes was a psychoanalyst who read the Iliad and came up with a theory that the two hemispheres of the brain didn't communicate the way that they do now. His argument is that the characters in the Iliad don't introspect "the right way" ergo their brains must work differently at a fundamental level. He then created a theory that this was due to one side communicating with the other via centers that use language processing which early humans interpreted as receiving communication from deities.

One anon took offense to this because he apparently didn't get what Jaynes was saying, and now other anons are trying to get him to explain what he actually thinks happens: that is, why does the bicameral communicate via the pathway that Jaynes suggests if the corpus callossum was present? The only way that the bicameral mind could come about is if the corpus callossum wasn't being used, and the only way it wouldn't be used is if it was absent.

>>22757887
Also before the anon who didn't know what Jaynes was saying gets upset at me for having read the book, here's the table of contents. The argument structure is "Achilles doesn't think a certain way ergo brains", the hypothesized neural structure is proposed to explain why the Greeks acted the way that they did.

>>22757887
Can't be because god talked to them then stopped no sir, we follow the science here

>>22757862
>we both have the same brain areas
>you believe in retarded nonsense
>I believe in profound truths of the highest order

We have the same structures, yet their manifestation is different.

You could say that that means we don't have the same structures, because they manifest differently.
That quickly reduces to the absurd though because then everyone would have different "structures" and the purpose for calling them structures at all would evaporate.

It's seems much more reasonable to acknowledge we have the same structures, but we use them differently as a result of our genetics and the sum total of our experiences.

To me, jaynes arguments make the most sense when seen in this light. Ancient man perceived the world differently despite the presence of the same structures because he had not yet developed the cultural language memes that "unlock" the ability to perceive the world as we do today.

>>22757906
This is especially given that in the Iliad the Gods are very much physical. Athena pilots a chariot and it creaks under her weight, Diomedes (with Athena opening his third eye) wounds Ares and Aphrodite, Zeus makes fun of Ares for getting physically chopped up into pieces, Poseidon outright leads the Greeks in war, and so on. The Olympians in Homer aren't just abstract voices or whatever, they're physical and personal beings.

>>22757906
The gods no longer talk to us. If we want to udnerstand them we either have to find a way to talk with them again or seek a more naturalistic explanation. I don't see a problem with either of these angles of attacking the problem so long as they're done in earnest.

>>22757761
Based comfyposter

>>22757960
Tried accepting they are there?

>>22753532
Two of those pillars are from the same culture and the third is an imitation of those, what's your point here?

Here you go.

>>22756985
Yore menally ill and have the gall to to think you can diagnos or prescribe medication?

Memtally ill, you are sick in the head and retarded too. You literally imagune me some lying retard like you?!?!

ILL, YO ARE SICK IN THE SOUL.

Go to class you eduated embarrassment.

>>22758019
I not asking you what realty is, since you lie in every post like every other shitbag here.

Ive take note of every obelisk (reduced pyramid) on every continent except Antarctica (maybe visit on South America tour) or Australia (Not interest in the slightest).

You gunna pull more contrarian pswudo-certainty out of your ass to "defeat me" or are you going to learn?

>Whats your point?>>22753532
>one continuous empire, changing flags but the core remains.

WHATS MY POINT?


ON A LITERATR BOARD THERE ILLITERATE PEOPLE!

THAT IS MY POINT...WHAT THE FUCK, DUDE............

You arr so wrapped up in uour emtoional narrative to hate against me YOU CANNOT SEE REALITY ANYMORE!!

FUCKING WILD.....You slip out of reality to find excuses to spew you garbage soul at me.....Fascinating and repulsive

>>22757027
https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/en/the-intellectual-consciousness-of-greece/

Ths reason Ive barely touched the book in OPs post is because you should full digest its subject matter before move on to the current state of the art.

>1976
Yeah...its a half centiry old quasi-philosophy medical book....update your requisits and sign up for the current classes.

Chop-chop, youre taking too long, humans.

>>22752104
Your language is imprecise not because the ideas are difficult to understand, but because the underlying context of them is unclear. You’re writing, not communicating. In other words, you’re a schizo and would be much better fit for /sci/ with Tooker and that guy who modeled the universe in excel

>>22751485

>>22752919
>>22752740
>>22752859
Incorrect. Why the fuck are you making shit up? Jaynes never, not a single time, says humans were anatomically different when they were bicameral. He goes to great lengths AT THE START OF THE FUCKING BOOK to clarify this and emphasize the ability of the human brain to adapt, and you pseuds still are pretending the wiki article says otherwise (also, quoting wiki, you’re gay).
Bonus: Jaynes updated his book in the 1990s and refuted all your retarded “counter arguments”. Look it up.

Jaynesfag out.

>>22757821
>why do YOU think that the bicameral mind uses the Wernicke's-Commissure route instead of just going through the Corpus Callossum?
Dude, I was never interested in debating the specifics of neural connectivity, and I never even tried. I have zero idea how you ever thought this boiled down to the neuroscience underpinning the bicameral mind because it was never even up for debate. You're jousting at windmills here.

I was mainly set off by the fact that the other anon claimed that Jaynes claimed that the corpus callossum didn't evolve until recently in evolutionary history, which is a gross fabrication. And then I was further angered by the fact that he used that ridiculous straw man to discredit the value of Jaynes's work. That's it.

>>22758412
>not because the ideas are difficult to understand
Youre filtered.

Stop LARPing youre smart and strong and brave............

>you’re a schizo
Youre not a doctor, YOURE EMBARRASED IN FORNT OF YOURSELF. Putting me down elevates you.

>that guy who modeled the universe in excel
>>22753619
HEY LOOK....A BUNCH OF 2-D REPRESENTATIONS OF FUNDEMENTAL REALITY.

Youre not a Phsyicst...youre probably some college kids angsty you have nothing published worth any fart.
>language is imprecise
POINT TO THE DISCREPANCY, YOU *WILL* LOSE.

>>22758436
Great now we've got two dudes who haven't read the book OR the thread getting upset about how openly discussing Jaynes ideas makes them sound retarded.

>>22758458
>Great now we've got two dudes who haven't read the book OR the thread getting upset
/lit/

>>22758450
>Dude, I was never interested in debating the specifics of neural connectivity, and I never even tried.
Clearly that's not the case given that you've spent the entire thread getting upset about neuroscientific points.

>I have zero idea how you ever thought this boiled down to the neuroscience underpinning the bicameral mind because it was never even up for debate.
If you didn't want to give that impression you shouldn't have started arguing about neuroanatomy.

>I was mainly set off by the fact that the other anon claimed that Jaynes claimed that the corpus callossum didn't evolve until recently in evolutionary history, which is a gross fabrication.
So then your previous two lines were in fact incorrect, you DO want to argue about neuroanatomy.

And you still haven't actually answered the question: why does the bicameral mind occur if the corpus callosum is present? Jaynes doesn't explain why, he just theorizes that the Greeks had to have different brains than we do and leaves the issue hanging. >>22752740 probably assumed that it's because if you actually look into what the advocates of Jaynes' theories say, they uniformly agree that it's because the corpus callosum is a recently evolved part of the brain, so if you disagree, stop wasting our time and just say what causes the bicameral mind if it's not the lack of the corpus callosum.

>>22758479
>22752740 probably assumed that it's because if you actually look into what the advocates of Jaynes' theories say, they uniformly agree that it's because the corpus callosum is a recently evolved part of the brain
This is exactly what I said that. I've never actually seen anyone advocate for Jaynes' ideas that wasn't making a very functionalist and materialist argument regarding it, so if this guy has something interesting to say then I'm all ears.

>>22753619
Post more schizoanalysis about stars

>>22758514
>schizoanalysis about stars
Your scizobabble is retarded.

Youre not a Phsycist, Im not going to lecture you on 2D matrices of fractons you illiterate LARPing degenerate....


GET A JOB, RESEARCH HAS FAILED YOU.

>>22758544
You realize you are jumping from one thing to another again just because you found a simple similarity?

This thing starts in 0.1 it must be equivalent to all things starting in 0.1

All things start there anon

>>22758564
>You realize
No you dont. STOP LYING TO ME.

>Stars
Pictured was Jupiter.
>Psychoanalyse
Stars of Politics that have roots in bloodlines, both found geomtric shapes found in nature, physics, math AND HUMANS.

Obelisks are representations of pyrmids at different, specific, angles that denote types of Phi.

Phi that is found in every atom of your body, and expressed through human actions as well.

>Yeah but I believe Physics only exists in the lab or outer space.

Thats why youre retarded and everything you know about "science" is wrong.

GO TO CLASS, ALL CLASSSES...ALL OF THEM.

Phsychology.
Medicine.
Neuroscience.
BioChemistry.
Mathematics.
Archeology.
Anthropology.
Political Science.
Genetics and Molecular Biology......

ALL MEANS ALL.

Go to class, humans....

I crapped my pants.

>>22759144
Not possible, I have an employee for such situatuons.

>>22758479
>Clearly that's not the case given that you've spent the entire thread getting upset about neuroscientific points.
Not really. There's a difference between making a nuanced argument about specific neural functions and outright denying the existence of part of the brain.
>So then your previous two lines were in fact incorrect, you DO want to argue about neuroanatomy.
No, this would be autism on your part. I don't want to argue about neuroanatomy. The claim being made isn't anatomical. Rather, it's a claim being made about what a person wrote. So it's literary more than anything.
>And you still haven't actually answered the question: why does the bicameral mind occur if the corpus callosum is present?
I literally don't care to argue your dumb point and I resent your attempts to try to make me care by misconstruing my post as attempts to address it. You're not going to get an answer for your pet project from me because I have zero, I repeat, ZERO interest in it.
>because if you actually look into what the advocates of Jaynes' theories say, they uniformly agree that it's because the corpus callosum is a recently evolved part of the brain
I don't know anybody who says that. And most importantly, it's not what Jaynes's says, so we can drop the argument right here because I don't care about what another spastic retard says.

>>22752740
>>22752771
Thank you for your exceptionally high quality posts. My apologies on behalf of the other """humans""" and their inability to understand what you've said or acknowledge how soundly you've defeated the author.
The irony here is that the people enjoying the book can actually still do so because, while the ideas are wrong, they're interesting for being unique.

>>22752740
>Well, Jaynes hypothesizes that gentile religions come from a time when the two lobes were not actually directly connected but instead routed through the "lizard brain",
This is utterly retarded and counter evolutionary logic.

He isnt an Evokutionary Biologist...he has zero qualifications to speak on this topic and he should have mastered human psychology before venturing into thebincomensurable world of other lifeforms.

>whenever the other one did anything they'd conceptualize it as a God

This dude is a fucking midwit wwith shit research skills, he needs to work the field.

Fucking hell.. Im trying to not shit on him but everything I hear from him makes me want to yell at him to redo his entire thesis from scratch.

First off...EVERY single point he makes and "Language"? F-, rip the paper in half in front of the class.
.
The only reason there is a record of a voice is BECAUSE THEY SPOKE IT. Those that "just knew" would "just do" without ever speaking it.

CASE IS POINT; >>22753523

TOO MUCH INFO FOR PLEBS.

JAYNES IS A MIDWIT...PHD MEANS SHIT TO ME.

>>22759506
Which is sad because half his points have merit but you people keep getting snagged on the wrong halfs and its seriously irritating me.

On top of that, as I show evidence to his baseless assumptions you people ignore it and continue lauding at the midwit....fucking disgusting...

>>22751485
It is a moronic theory and you are a moron for not dropping the book after the introduction

>>22759520
Half of it has merit.

If you dont have a PhD is this or a related field put your fecal-opinion back down that gullet. Stop giving your emotional opinions like your's is a "medical" one, its just your anus declaring it exists.

>>22759430
Either samefag or a midwit retard who thinks Wikipedia > reading the original source

>>22751573
>For example, this book theorizes that hug, kiss, and hold hands because these things are actually quite annoying, and so you couldn’t reliably fake such behavior with someone you didn’t truly love.
Anon I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you probably have autism if you seriously believe that.

>>22759576
There's some truth to it. These behaviors can easily be disgusting with people you don't like enough, especially in a romantic sense. And the other behaviors make sense too. Seems kind of similar to the handicap principle

>>22759613
>There's some truth to it.
>That its not a melding of gut and orifice biome.
"There appears to be strong evidence for the treatment and transmission of psychiatric illnesses through FMT."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7294648/

>>22759506
>TOO MUCH INFO FOR PLEBS.

Mark 10:8-9

The two human-occupied microbial hives were seperate...

...until symbiosis was achieved.

"I control me."

Yeah, totes not the genetic hybridization of non-mammalian genes hijacking your system and feeding you endorphines that trigger the "Im completing my life's purpose." button.

>Voice of God.
Huh? Who? Wha-huh? Sorry, I dont understand anything in life.

Lol a bug does it...

>>22751485

>>22759506
Shut the fuck up. Nothing in this gigantic wall of text is an argument about anythinf

>>22758590
STFU you faggot pseud namefag.

>>22760065
>>22760068
If you dont have a PhD you should stop talking out of your ass in anonymous meszage boards where you'll never have to held responsible for the lies you constantly spew...its corrupts the mind by subconsciously brainwashing you into forgetting youre actually ignorant as shit and dumb.

>>22759555
He literally cited the book, posted an entire chapter, and then posted pictures from it. The only one who hasn't read the book is the dude who won't tell us why the bicameral mind happens if not for physical changes in the brain.

>>22760081
Anyone with a PHD I automatically discredit their opinion lmao. Getting a PHD just means you were too scared to go into the real world and you hid inside doing BS “research” instead. The “genius” with a PHD has been making arguments about this book that the author never made. There is no where in the book he says that the corpus callosum “evolved” or grew or anything like that, I just did a control F search.

>>22760084
>The only one who hasn't read the book is the dude who won't tell us why the bicameral mind happens if not for physical changes in the brain.
""bicameral" (two chambers) to describe a mental state in which the experiences and memories of the right hemisphere of the brain are transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations."
Then why do all mammals "two chambered"?

His theory is predicated on false assumptions of human Psyché seperated from all other beings, a type of Fundementalist Creationist thinking of "Humans have a soul and therefore are conscious, unlike the beasts of burden."

Antiquated and solipsistic.

>>22759394
>And most importantly, it's not what Jaynes's says
Right, the bicameral mind HAS to occur through a specific neurological mechanism because the characters in the Iliad don't introspect correctly. So, why do you think this happens?

>>22760115
>I automatically discredit their opinion
It will tell me whether you are familiar with techhical lingo or not and also what basic facts you Should be aware of that igniring would be tantamount to denying reality.
>lmao
Heh.
>Getting a PHD just means
Quiet, pleb...Ive heard enough of your feeble nonsense.

Get the prequisits of education or learn your place, peasant.

Good day.

>>22760139
I highly doubt you actually have a PHD because I would assume such crippling autism would prevent it. Even so, getting a PHD from retardU clearly didn’t help as you can’t comprehend a pretty basic book without arguing with strawmen. Im sure serious academics are posting schizo babble on 4chan all day LMAO!

>>22760158
>I highly doubt
>"I have no education in any of these fields but I'll just go ahead and speak for the board members of all sciences until they arrive, making me....b-b-basically the smartest man alive BUT HUMBLY BECAUSE THEYRE THE REAL SMART ONES."

Idolatry, speaking for God until he shows up, LARPing via third person. Very maladjusted, habitual liar and poor self image with no effort in improvement.

I mean...youre basically God, so...whats there to improve?

>>22760171
>You’re basically God
Correct, now shut the fuck up nerd and quit shitting up this thread. We can all tell you haven’t read the book.

>>22760176
>quit shitting up this thread
Funny way of writting invalidating the foudnation of Julian Jaynes' life's work.

>>22752104
>I would lecture him on every field he researches
I made that claim before actually looking over his work.

I have...now Im validated.
[swoosh, all net]

Internet schizos shit up everything. Original topic was interesting though fringe, now utterly diluted by literal shit.

>>22760210
>>22761221
Sorry for all the idiotic babble, guys. Like a lot of people who spend time 'researching' on the internet, I am quite passionate. However, I suffer from weapons grade retardation and so I am completely un-self-aware that my "unified theory" is pretty standard self-aggrandizing, failed autodidacticism. Luckily, I live with my mom, and she just brought me meds and tendies! I hope you all enjoy your sunday afternoon. Now that I have my meds, I won't waste my time on 4chan anymore, and I suggest you do the same. Turns out, shapes on a map couldn't be any more meaningless compared to some comfy episodes of Thomas the Tank Engine!

>>22761468
Damn you really wish to derrail this

>>22753582
I mean...Don't look too far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
But I'm guessing you are wondering if we have right now such a theory that might be later found to be correct ?
My best bet would be that we are in a dream/Vr game/Simulation

https://www.my-big-toe.com/theory/overview-of-my-big-toe/

Bicameral bros.... We lost

>>22751485
not op, but I've made this thread so many times ever since I found JJ. No one ever gives recs, they just argue about consciousness.

>>22762159

>>22762159
>No one ever gives recs,
I did, the problem is you dont want to attend lectures in tangent fields....instead you want a thrilling book of mysteries and intrigue.

The reason they argue is because he is largly wrong, its supposed to be a "generalish ideas" book but people keep getting stuck on minor shit that they dont have the required knowledge to diregard.

>>22762177
Much like most people are right handed, same goes for internals, some are backwards or even inverted in thought process.

I am double inverted, meaning it appears normal at first but on closer inspection it iss very not. Not only is there left/roght hemisphere but also mind and body...on top of that the brain has a third hemisphere, a virtual partion of both hemispheres.

Humans did not describe it for millenia because "they were confused cave people" as Jaynes would describe.

>>22762446
>it appears normal at first but on closer inspection it iss very not
Its cool seeing someone write backwards and woth zero thinking. He is tapping into the same thing. The same thing Leonardo Divinci did when writting backwards too.

https://youtu.be/KMgLkDfnjfY

>>22762177
>the master: Julia jaynes
>His emmissary: Ian mcgilchrist

Ironic really

>>22762492
Someone had to tell them

Some things weren't like they thought

>>22762492
https://youtu.be/bCwTH5f2DnE

The king is dead, long live the king.

>>22757225
Do you think it's unreasonable that when people began using iron, they also began using it for cookware?

This book has awakened a new line of thought in me, but I tried (and failed) to open a line of discussion with Buddhists on multiple sites. The world view that DMT suggests is undeniably similar to Buddhism, and similar to near-death experiences too. However, the overall feel of Buddhism is fundamentally negative toward life. Samsara is bad, and the state of liberation which Buddhists and bhikkus aspire to is more or less similar to non-existence. From their POV, it would be ideal if we were never born.

However, both NDEs and DMT have an undeniable positive slant. For one, people often voluntarily return to earth once they are beyond their bodies, despite knowing that death is just an eternal tranquility. Furthermore, unlike in Buddhism, people who have had NDEs claim that reincarnation is real, but it's voluntary, and being born is actually a choice.

People who take DMT also talk a lot about "machine elves" and creatures who are far more intelligent than them, yet seem to lack something which humans have. This is often identified as emotion. The entities may take an interest in humans for this exact reason -- because despite all our limitations, our lack of inner peace, and struggles with ego, we exist as humans because it gives us emotional capabilities which are otherwise not possible. Hence death is an immensely peaceful state, but there's no real emotion or love to it.

(1/2)

Humanity may be an experimental reality, perhaps the only one where love exists. It is why DMT entities are fascinated by us, it's why love is the strongest pleasure we can feel (surpassing any other sense of euphoria or peace), it is why someone would choose to become human instead of live in the void for eternity.

This makes a lot more intuitive sense to me than Buddhism's conclusion. What does Buddhism place as its #1 goal? Liberation. Where love appears in Buddhism, it's used merely as a stepping stone toward liberation. But love is the most powerful emotion, the most flexible, the one that makes life feel truly meaningful. More than anything, it -literally- bridges the gaps created through separation & affirms that all things are truly one.

Liberation in comparison seems like such a silly goal, motivated by dislike and wanting to avoid something (rebirth) instead of something positive (compassion).

I believe that what Buddhists call 'Metta' or cultivating love may be the true reason we are on earth. Not just loving 1 or 2 people, but learning to love (literally) all of mankind and existence. This could be why "enlightenment" is near impossible for Buddhists -- it was never the goal in the first place. Perhaps there's an incredible world waiting to be discovered of Metta techniques, where life could become like a neverending MDMA trip. Who knows? I have read reports of similar results from experienced meditators before.

(2/2)

>>22763317
Personally I like being liberated

Is liberating, nothing silly about leaving a lot of bad

>>22759613
>you would not have sex with a stranger you are not attracted to
>but you would have sex with someone you love and are attracted to
hhmmmmm I guess having sex is really difficult so we only do it to those we are romantically interested in to prove to make them prove to us they still love us. Man aren't we a bunch of chimpanzees after all

>>22763312
You’re getting Buddhism all wrong, the translation that “life is suffering” is not an accurate translation. It’s more like life is full of annoyances or imperfection while enlightenment/the tao is perfection so anything by comparison is “suffering”. I suggest reading the way of zen and power of now it would explain something’s and sounds right up your alley.

>>22751485
As for you OP I think you’d love reading books on evolutionary psychology specifically this one, it’s right up your alley.

>>22751504
That the guy who invented Migrosofd? :DD

>>22751608
McGilchrist's hypothesis (consciousness dying) is the inverse of Jaynes' (consciousness irrupting) as he admits in one interview.

>>22751608
McGilchrist's hypothesis (consciousness dying) is the inverse of Jaynes' (consciousness irrupting), as he admits in one interview. McGilchrist would basically agree with this fully >>22752056, except he would say we are the automatons, and increasingly so.

>>22764919
>You’re getting Buddhism all wrong
I'm aware that "Life is suffering" is a mistranslation, and dukkha is more like "craving". Buddhists don't claim that samsara is a negative experience -- it's really just neutral. But compared to the deathless state, which promises infinite peace, being in samsara is pretty miserable. Most of the transcendental states that Buddhists reach hint at formless existence, where states of endless tranquility or euphoria are common fare.

Put simply, Buddhists don't want to exist. The states they tap into are merely what it's like after death, not having a body and being pure awareness. They find no value in having corporeal form, and want to escape ASAP. All human traits such as emotion are only a means to this end, hence their approach to metta. Further, in Buddhism people are forced into the cycle of rebirth. Despite being technically neutral, most Buddhists take a negative attitude toward samsara for this reason.

People who have near-death experiences make similar insights as Buddhists. All is one, the ego/our lives/time are illusory, non-existence is a state of eternal peace, rebirth is real. But they say rebirth is voluntary -- and to exist on earth is a blessing. This is echoed by DMT reports. Why would I trust NDEs and DMT over Buddhist canon? Because nearly all Buddhists take the claim of how samsara works on faith. Most monks can have an ego death in this lifetime if they try hard enough, but have you met any who learned how samsara works firsthand? Buddhist canon claims one thing, but DMT and NDEs contradict it across the board. Maybe Buddhist canon is based off an incomplete picture of reality, of someone who believed they were at the end but they were not.

>>22751530
this nigga on /lit/ and didn't even read proust lmaooooo

>>22751485
Sexual cycle of human warfare

>>22751485
Is this the guy who believes Plato wasn't sentient?

>>22765632
Introspective enough

>>22765632
From what I remember, Plato is considered one of the turning points who moved society from bicameral thinking to consciousness

>>22755899
What do you think of root mathematics and Rodin's vortex mathematics? It seems to have a very strong relationship with natural phenomena like crop circles.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7X1L3EPk9YOgrL9W3beXUtcRIXc0yy5E&si=p7OjzDjm9EhLa80w
>>22755922
Do you need to know the languages?

I don’t know if it’s *radically* original but I found this book quite illuminating and not like any academic text I’ve read in how it rigorously draws a thread between Platonism, mysticism, Western philosophy, and science all without a shred of woo or handwaving. Incredibly underrated.

>>22760081
I have a PhD in faggotology, so I know a faggot when I see one (you).