/lit/ - Literature

the Jews told them to wheel it in

>>22685680
I know right? Who would be dumb enough to do something like that? Totally unrealistic.

>>22685741
1) this didn't just show up at the new york port one day, they arranged for it to be there from a known source
2) it was shipped in parts and assembled by locals

>>22685741
the statue of liberty is a good statue
the trojan horse looks like shit

In their time, trojs were feared people

Of course you couldn't see it from the city. The greeks came by ships and they wouldn't land in view of the Trojans. They built it by the ships and send the ships away when the horse was built. As to why the Trojans hauled it into the city, they probably wanted to take it as a token of victory for driving the greeks back to their shores

>>22685680
>tfw try to warn the Trojans it's a trap and they should burn the horse
>Athena sends serpents to kill you and your sons

>>22685836
>>22685836
>The greeks came by ships and they wouldn't land in view of the Trojans
i thought they were siedging them already?
> They built it by the ships and send the ships away when the horse was built.
ok i'm following. so the trojans thought the greeks landed then decided to give up and leave, but before they left they built a horse??
>As to why the Trojans hauled it into the city, they probably wanted to take it as a token of victory for driving the greeks back to their shores
I don't get it. What does that mean? It's a shitty pile of wood

The workers are standing in a small, half-dark wooden room full of machines, working. They haven't received their pay in half a month due. 'Let's troll production', says one of the guys. They start blocking the wheels with wooden sticks and throw a bunch of filth into the boiling water containers and run out of the facility as the pistons start exploding behind them.
Half an hour later, the indebted capitalist goes inside the facility with his house maid, shocked at what he sees.
He sits on his couch in the living room of his little mansion, opens a bottle of scotch and starts crying with his hands around his face as a bunch of angry creditors and policemen with beating clubs in their hands enter his private property.

>>22685754
There was a writer who got inspired from seeing this irl at the time, I forgot his name.

>>22685741
this is made of metal though
that makes it worth something
if it was made of wood it wouldn't last 50 years, at best it would be a neat thing to look at at a state fair or something
pic related, it fails squarely into the "neat i guess" category, why did the trojans go WOAH THIS IS AMAZING WE NEED TO TAKE THIS TO THE CITY

>>22685680
It wasn't a horse statue. There were Phoenician ships around 1000BC with horse figureheads which ancient Greeks called "hippoi" ("horses"). There's plenty of archaeological evidence of those. Later (mis)translations completely missed it (or rather, wouldn't be able to have the same context) which led to this retarded idea of a literal giant horse monument wheeled into the city.

And there is evidence of galleys being filled with precious cargo and hauled in as a gift to the powerful rulers across different cultures.

>>22685978
so they found a ship (and this type of ship is called "horse") and they bring the ship inside the city?

but if there was no treasure on the ship, why did they bring it? wouldn't it just be a normal ship?

>>22685762
Were you there?

>>22686045
it's hastly made
it's made of wood
all i need to know

>>22686051
It's made by experienced woodworkers from the finest Thracian woods.

>>22686033
They took it in as a token of victory, for it to be a monument honoring the gods that brought them victory. This really isn't hard to understand, you sound like you have brain damage and can't understand human behavior.

>>22686058
no it's not it's made by soldiers from whatever was lying around

>>22685680
The Greeks leave an inscription on it saying it's an offering to Athena upon their departure. They burn their own camp and retreat to an island off the coast, so it looks like they've really left. The Trojans actually debate over bringing the horse in, if it's an offering that marks their victory it'll obviously bring them good luck, but multiple Trojans say it's a trap, namely Cassandrs and Laocoön. Apollo sends two sea serpents to kill Laocoön's sons which convinces most of the Trojans that its legit. Later, Helen tries to draw the Greeks out by imitating their wives' voices, but Odysseus stops them blabbering.

See: Odyssey 8.505 and onwards; Aeneid 2.199-227; Apollodorus, Library, Epitome 14-19

>>22685978
Notice that this guy didn't cite a single Greek text. It might have been inspired by horse-masted ships but that's just an interesting conjecture. The Odyssey specifically mentions a wooden horse and it's in all our ancient sources of the story.

>>22686105
>The Odyssey specifically mentions a wooden horse
Because it's a specific type of ship. Norse sagas also call their ship simply drakkar. By your logic, we should assume they swam on literal dragons because they didn't specify that they meant ships. Given the ample archaeological evidence of the contemporary period it's just retarded to hang on being purposefully obtuse.

>>22685881
>I don't get it. What does that mean? It's a shitty pile of wood
you're so retardedly modern its incredible

>>22685881
Have you actually read anything? The Trojan war raged on for fucking years and the greeks devised this plan since they couldn't win against Trojans.
>I don't get it. What does that mean? It's a shitty pile of wood
According to the mythology it was an idol for Neptune if I recall correctly. Not sure if the Trojans knew/realized that

>>22686254
the Greeks didn't worship Neptune

>>22686263
He is Poseidon though. I did use the Roman/Latin name for it my bad. To say that they didn't worship him is wrong

Wasnt Poseidon a main deity at the time in Mycenaean pantheon?

>>22686564
Yes, and before he was a sea deity.

Earth, horses, fertility, earthquakes, underworld, ruling and protection were his things in Mycenean Greece. But by the poem's composition time Zeus had come along and become the main guy.

>>22685754
Im pretty sure they knew the horse was from the achaeans. Im also pretty sure the trojans couldn't see the camp from their walls. Plus the statue of liberty had a very similar effect on America. Just look at the damage its faggy french influence had on the superior American zeitgeist. Im half convinced that, if she wasn't on US soil, there would be no such thing as an "American liberal."

>>22685978
pack it up boys, this /lit/ poster figured out what no one else could!

The trojans had the best horses and prided themselves on their riding skills. It’s their pride that allows them to accept the horse, not sound judgment.

>>22686689
A statue which didn‘t even exist for a hundred years afterward didn‘t turn sour a country founded by deifying the angloid civil war with additional capitalist rot and which was well into the process of multiracialism at the time. How absolutely retarded are you?

>>22686105
Great post

>>22685849
They did him so dirty bros…

>>22687040
I'm just saying shit has gotten much worse since. I think you might just not be able to extrapolate from incomplete data.

>>22685680
Troy was known for its horse-breeding and its cavalry. The horse was an emblem of Troy. So an offering in the form of a horse was irresistable to them, as the Achaeans well knew.

>>22685680
The Iliad was just a story about an old war Im sure many of the names are accurate, people found it amazing because they could empathize with both sides and it’s just an amazing action packed story for the time. My guess is that the Greeks offered gifts to the Trojans to make peace and Priam stupidly ordered the gate opened, thinking he had made friends with Achilles and the Greeks just sacked the city stole all the riches killed the men and enslaved the women and children. The sympathetic way the geeks depict the Trojans in these stories indicates a bit of guilt and aiding with the enemy being justified based on how fucked up the betrayal was, dragging hectors nody around could have been a representation of that and petrocalus being killed was a symbol of the Greeks justification for sacking the city. Priam could have been offered gifts of riches, a bronze, wooden or gold horse (maybe a returned gift from one of the objects stolen in an earlier raid), this could have been transformed into a story about men sneaking in using the wooden horse. This could have been transformed via the telephone phenomenon into a story about men literally tricking their way in by hiding in the horse. Just speculation though.

>>22688089
the trojan war never happened. even if it did, the story told in the iliad is completely unreliable as a historical document. the 'destruction layers' at troy are so impoverished its ridiculous to think it could last for ten years against a coalition of mycenaeans. so, in sum, stop caring about historical accuracy you dumb shit and start appreciating Homer

>>22685680
Simon convinced them.

>>22685741
Holy kek

Underrated post

>>22686579
I wonder if Poseidon's low key power struggle with Zeus in the poem is a reference to his former place in the pantheon and him losing it.

>>22685762
>the statue of liberty is a good statue
Because it was made by France.

>>22688110
1. The city exists and it was sacked at the time in question 2. There is a famous Greek story about the city being sacked by the Greeks at the time in question. Nobody knows for sure what happened in detail but this is enough for most people to assume a war with Greeks and Trojans probably happened at this time. Your view that it was entirely made up is not common and imo it’s overly skeptical considering we have oral and physical evidence that something like the Trojan war happened at the time in question in that location. Do you think the city coincidentally existed and that the walls crumbled for no reason during the period outlined in the Iliad? There is absolutely no reason at all to assume Greeks couldn’t make a voyage to Troy and sack the city and tell a story about it that ended up, hundreds of years later, being the Iliad.
> it couldn’t have lasted ten years therefore it never happened!
Nobody said it “had to last for ten years” in order to be based on real events you massive faggot and speculating over the historicity of this story is something people have been doing for well over a thousand years. People like speculating about things because it’s fun. If you don’t enjoy thinking about things then fuck off, nobody asked you to chime in.
These sorts of campaigns were incredibly common in the Mediterranean at the time during the Bronze Age collapse:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
they happened routinely on the coastline. It’s not outlandish to think some Greeks may have followed suit or been involved in these raids, that they returned with gold, war brides and retold the stories to other Greeks. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Greeks didn’t make some raid on Troy or that some military leader named Achilles couldn’t have killed and dragged the military leader of the Trojans around who was the son of the Trojan king, and that they offered to return the body or some combination of a peace deal for the body was used as a bargaining chip which allowed them to pass the walls and sack the city. The only original speculation on my part is that the story may have turned into one that was sympathetic to the Trojans because I’m guessing that they might have sacked the city in a dishonorable way and that some Greek descendants may have been related to Trojans due to the war brides they would have taken. It would make sense that the story would be told from both sides and embellished with details to make it seem more theatrical and to show the Trojans as somewhat sympathetic and the Greeks in a better light for example, that sacking the city was a clever trick with a horse rather than just a dishonorable conquest. There is no historic basis for my speculation but I’m making it nevertheless, if you do not like it I do not give a fuck.

>cousin thinks the Trojan War happened almost entirely like in the epic but doesn't believe that the ruins of Troy are the actual Troy
How does this even work

>>22685741
It actually kind of is a trojan horse if you think about it. The "tired hungry and poor" plaque on the bottom as justification for endless immigration being a proxy for the people inside the horse. Kind of poetic, in a way, that we have a living breathing trojan horse statue in our midst which we stupidly cherish similar to how the Trojans did.
>>22685762
I like the idea of a statue with this crown devoted to liberty and of a woman holding a torch and the art deco greek revival style, but the statue of liberty is not a particularly beautiful statue, her whole body is completely covered with a very thick robe and she looks mannish. The only reason, I believe, that people love this statue is due to it's extreme size and that the oxidation of the copper makes it appear as though it's far older than it really is. But in terms of it's form, it's visual aesthetic qualities, it's not particularly beautiful and reminds me a lot of the statue of unity in it's ugliness. Literally, this is like a statue of some bookish judicial Lisa Simpson type. The face on the statue isn't particularly beautiful either. Looks like a chubby face woman with a scornful grimace. I guess if you dedicate a statue to an ugly sexless spiteful grimacing lesbian who thinks she is enlightened (symbolized by a torch and a book) and put a plaque under her that you must accept endless immigrants or you don't believe in freedom, and ..you kind of get what you ask for.

>>22689701
Extreme social justice logic defeats itself. If the US was supposed to be this diverse nation taking in tons of immigrants then why did most of the founders not feel that way and more importantly why did most Americans not feel that way. I would say it's mainly the people who define a nation and if most people don't want diversity then that's what the nation is. The peoples' voices are supposed to matter.

It's interesting how they criticize the US for being this racist and fascist country with an evil history, but for some reason think these people were supposed to be pro diversity. They also demonize pretty every who isn't alive today for being backwards, but praise the WW2 generation and the Union in the Civil War.

If the US is evil then why praise it? Why praise the Union when they went and massacred Natives 10 years later? The only people they praise are those who sacrificed for others above their own people and nation. Some weird self-hating savior complex. Lastly, it's completely retarded for them to even praise WW2 because everyone talks about how Hitler was inspired by us and we interned the Japanese, nuked them, enslaved blacks, massacred Natives, etc. I guess they want something to believe in, but the only person they will accept is someone who sacrificed for others with no regard for his own people, his own nation, nothing. Just die for brown people like Jesus Christ dying for White people's sins. It's pathetic and ridiculous that the only White people who aren't demonized are those who completely abandon any loyalty to their own, but non White heroes are those who put their own first. It's such a cucked mentality, no wonder we're so fucked.

>>22689452
>the time in question
What time in question, early archaic? Because what Homer describes is not Mycenaean but post-Mycenaean. If it happened in Mycenaean times then Homer's story is based on a real event but most of it is fictional, with many ornaments added
So yeah a war with Trojans happened. The Trojan War in Homer did not. People dragging their defeated enemies from chariots also happened. But Achilles never did it.
also why would anyone see it as dishonorable? you are retarded, they were fine with using deception. they were also extremely vindictive and vengeful throughout history. both of these are good
cope

>>22690283
> what Homer describes is not Mycenaean but post-Mycenaean.
"Those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War are derived from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th century BC, often preferring the dates given by Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly correspond to archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VII,[4] and the Late Bronze Age collapse."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War
Mycenaean Greece (or the Mycenaean civilization) was the last phase of the Bronze Age in Ancient Greece, spanning the period from approximately 1750 to 1050 BC.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece
The Greek Dark Ages was the period of Greek history from the end of the Mycenaean palatial civilization, around 1100 BC, to the beginning of the Archaic age, around 750 BC.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

>>22685741
Pas de refonte

>>22690283
> If it happened in Mycenaean times then Homer's story is based on a real event but most of it is fictional
Large sections of the Iliad involve Greek gods and goddesses intervening, so I don't think this is in question. The question is whether, setting all that sort of stuff aside, the battles and characters were exactly as described or whether none of them existed at all and it was just an anonymous war and ALL of the details were fictional. I happen to think some of it is based on fact, perhaps the names of the people in question, the dragging of the body, the sacking of the city and maybe some peace gift used to get inside the city that was in the shape of a horse.
> a war with Trojans happened. The Trojan War in Homer did not.
Unlike you, I don't believe I have access to secret information confirming or denying what events that took place. I openly admit that I do not know. I think it's interesting to speculate on how much of it was true or false. I'm interested to know why you think it's impossible that any of these events took place, that the story is wholly fabricated. You seem to just keep repeating that it's entirely fabricated and fail to explain what brings you to feel this way.
> People dragging their defeated enemies from chariots also happened.
Exactly. This happened.
> But Achilles never did it.
Ok...WHY do you feel this was impossible? That is my question you massive fucking faggot. You don't explain, you just say "DERRR it didn't happen! Trust be bra!". Do you have a fucking crystal ball you massive faggot? How do you know this?
> also why would anyone see it as dishonorable?
I theorized that the Greeks used a dishonorable trick to enter the city, violating an agreement or something like that. Maybe they dragged the kings son around troy until they opened the gates. Who knows. And this was turned into a clever story about tricking the trojans with a wooden horse. Why is a dishonorable action considered dishonorable? I don't know, because it is, you complete fucking retard.
> you are retarded, they were fine with using deception.
No, they weren't "fine" with it. Even in the Iliad itself it's openly talked about how dishonorable it was for Paris to agree to fight and then run away, for Agamemnon to take Briseis, for Paris to steal his wife and how dishonoring a body is a massive violation. There was obviously a social code of honor in stories about war then and the Greeks, obviously being the storytellers would have made themselves look better and I suspect there was a reason to humanize the Trojans and make Hector appear heroic.
> they were also extremely vindictive and vengeful throughout history.
Which shows that they have a moral compass and if the story they are telling makes them look like massive assholes they would change the story.
> both of these are good cope
What?

>>22689701
>endless immigration
Don't forget, for all your resentiment "whiteness", we kicked you out because you were worthless losers. For all your crying about niggers, we actually imported niggers, because, unlike you, they were productive, and a worthwhile investment. You were kicked out because you were neither. And here you are. Bitching about the Jews and niggers and spicks and streetshitters who have made the US productive, because no one wants to hire you, and no one things to sell you toys with your Happy Meals anymore

Fucking pathetic

>>22690511

>>22690677
I forget, denial suits you better than education.

>>22690435
You literally did not address my point. What Homer describes is after the Mycenaean era. The conflict that inspired it could be Mycenaean.

>>22690480
See https://sites.utexas.edu/scripts/files/2020/06/2008-TGP-MycenaeanReligion.pdf
Homer is not taken as an example of Mycenaean civilization. Not just religion wise but also his description of architecture, art, and other stuff. That's Archaic, not Mycenaean.
Nobody actually claims that what we see in the Iliad is Mycenaean culture as we have unearthed it in archaeological sites.
>that the story is wholly fabricated
The story is a fictional narrative based on older events or a single event. Such events were common. Even Thucydides said this btw, not even a few centuries later were Greeks convinced about it being real.
>WHY do you feel this was impossible?
Because Achilles is not real, just like Heracles isn't. They are based on real people, who were neither Achilles nor Heracles, duh.
>I theorized that the Greeks used a dishonorable trick to enter the city
You are projecting modern morality on ancient people, you're a woman
>Even in the Iliad itself it's openly talked about how dishonorable it was for Paris to agree to fight and then run away
Cowardice in battle
>for Agamemnon to take Briseis
Insult to the hero of the story
>for Paris to steal his wife
This is literally the pretext Achaeans used, how much did Argos pay you? Anyway of course insult by my enemies is le bad to me duh.
>and how dishonoring a body is a massive violation
That's Homer's opinion lol apparently Achaeans didn't give a fuck and considered it good. Cope
>Which shows that they have a moral compass
Which is unlike the one you are projecting on them

>>22690511
I support the United Satan becoming becoming productive at genociding the demographic responsible for keeping it together :^)

>>22690723
But then no one really gives a shit what you "support", now do they?

>>22685741
Good example. You made midwits seethe.

>>22690728
No, I mean literally support. I financially support any political candidate who opens American borders to hordes of bloodthirsty spics.

>>22690720
>You literally did not address my point. What Homer describes is after the Mycenaean era. The conflict that inspired it could be Mycenaean.
I never denied that the story was not changed. Are you retarded?
> The story is a fictional narrative based on older events or a single event.
Ummm...I never said it wasn't you fucking retard, in fact I've repeatedly stated this. Are you paying attention to anything that I wrote?
> Because Achilles is not real, just like Heracles isn't.
There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that a man named Achilles did not exist in a war campaign of Greek sent to Troy and there is no evidence that a man named Herakles did not exist either in the distant past. You haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. Literally talking straight out of your asshole.
> They are based on real people, who were neither Achilles nor Heracles, duh.
I thought you said it never even happened? What the fuck are you talking about? Did it happen or didn't it? How do you know exactly what their names were?
> You are projecting modern morality on ancient people, you're a woman
No, the morals were literally written into the book itself you massive fucking retard. You aren't clever because you can imagine a different set of morals, you are a half-informed dunce who thinks he's a genius.
> Cowardice in battle
The book repeatedly says how the Greeks were appalled at the insult that the Trojans didn't honor their agreement WHEN MENELAUS OBVIOUSLY WON, not exclusively roasting Paris about his cowardice. I just read the book faggot.
> Insult to the hero of the story
Yes, and so we can conclude that some things are considered BAD and some are GOOD even in ancient Greece you massive tard.
> That's Homer's opinion lol
Ok, you are just a massive idiot or a troll. I simply refuse to believe that you are this stupid.

>>22690966
>Are you paying attention to anything that I wrote?
I didn't, you type like a faggot so I just ignored most of what you wrote. Cope
>muh names
There were hundreds of people named like that, yes. You write like a faggot again btw
>I thought you said it never even happened?
You thought wrong because of your rabid homosexuality. Homer's fictional(ized) narrative never happened, an event like that could have happened at any given moment, just not like Homer describes.
>the morals were literally written into the book itself
Yes exactly, we can see Achaean morality and Homer's asinine moralfaggotry thanks for agreeing with me.
>Yes, and so we can conclude that some things are considered BAD and some are GOOD even in ancient Greece
Yes just like I said here >>22690283
Vengefulness and deception are applauded as good by the Greeks evidently, since they engage in them without problem or remorse.

You might as well be a woman for being so stupid. Keep coping

>>22689452
wikipedia citing nigger please read a book. i'll even lend you my copy of m. i. finley's the world of odysseus if you suck my cock first. he discusses all of this in-depth and essentially we have no more reason to believe the trojan war happened than we have for believing the exodus, or that there really was a primeval flood as presented in enuma elish (or genesis), or any other FICTIONAL, POETIC story told about events before history as a concept even existed. if you do believe these things (which i wouldnt be surprised if you do), you're a dupe and i have a bridge to sell you

>>22691061
also inb4 you read his wikipedia page and just reply with some of (((these))) or call him an sjw or a communist retard

>>22691029
So your assertion is that Homer invented, completely independent from any cultural norms, the idea that the treatment of the body after death has some sort of ritual/spiritual significance? Compelling stuff, let us know when you get it published!

>>22690720
If the war was a meaningless anonymous campaign with no details why would anyone remember it to pass down the story of the campaign via oral tradition for centuries? And why would “Homer” base this epic poem on that meaningless event? Alternatively, if events took place that were significant and worthy of passing down via oral tradition what would make you think everything about that campaign was totally ignored by “Homer”? Your argument makes no sense. You’re an incredible idiot and have absolutely no clue wtf you are talking about. Your argument is just “trust me bro”, fuck off idiot.

>I didn't
it shows.
>...now I'm calling you a faggot!
Lol, I think it was I who called you the faggot first, faggot.
>There were hundreds of people named like that
You say "the names didn't change..but uhhh...they were there..but not really" what fucking movie is playing your faggot head that you know exactly what their names were and that Homer changed them? Do you have any evidence for any of these factual statements you are making? If not, I'm uninterested in reading any more of your mental diarrhea.
>>I thought you said it never even happened?
>You thought wrong because of your rabid homosexuality.
Ok then. Lol.
> an event like that could have happened at any given moment,
>just not like Homer describes.
That's an AMAZING observation dude. It's almost like that's what I've been saying this entire time.
>>we can see Achaean morality and Homer's asinine moralfaggotry
And that exactly illustrates the point I made about the story being changed to match the morality of the Greeks. Before you say "it wasn't common morality", this book and it's moral issues resonated with all of Greece at the time. So I think you have an uphill battle trying to explain how the Iliad and it's morals were completely irrelevant to the Greeks. This is just more of (you) talking out of your asshole.
>Vengefulness and deception are applauded as good by the Greeks evidently, since they engage in them without problem or remorse.
That's bad reasoning. The world had two world wars in the 20th century and killed hundreds of millions collectively. Can we therefore conclude that there is no modern morality and that killing people is considered ok? No. We actually can't. Because that's retarded reasoning, the same reasoning you are using here.
>You might as well be a woman for being so stupid. Keep coping
Ok, I'm a gay coping woman, you got me. But if you can't provide any evidence for your theories they aren't the facts that you think they are. Cope.

>>22691061
> wikipedia citing nigger
What sources should I be using for quick reference in an online message board genius?
> please read a book.
I just read four books, on the Iliad, which I'm not reading for the second time. Is this enough? Or should I read 100 books on the Iliad before I'm educated enough to discuss the topic?
> i'll even lend you my copy of m. i. finley's the world of odysseus
> if you suck my cock first.
WOW! Mic drop moment! You crushed my argument completely by providing the title of a book...uhhh, no. You need to argue your own argument faggot. What chapter of the book, what is the evidence that there was no Trojan war?
> he discusses all of this in-depth and essentially we have no more reason to believe the trojan war happened than we have for believing the exodus, or that there really was a primeval flood as presented in enuma elish (or genesis), or any other FICTIONAL, POETIC story told about events before history as a concept even existed.
Other than the fact that there is a city that matches the description which most historians agree is the location of Troy. Lol.

>>22691029
>I didn't
it shows.
>...now I'm calling you a faggot!
Lol, I think it was I who called you the faggot first, faggot.
>There were hundreds of people named like that
You say "the names didn't change..but uhhh...they were there..but not really" what fucking movie is playing your faggot head that you know exactly what their names were and that Homer changed them? Do you have any evidence for any of these factual statements you are making? If not, I'm uninterested in reading any more of your mental diarrhea.
>>I thought you said it never even happened?
>You thought wrong because of your rabid homosexuality.
Ok then. Lol.
> an event like that could have happened at any given moment,
>just not like Homer describes.
That's an AMAZING observation dude. It's almost like that's what I've been saying this entire time.
>>we can see Achaean morality and Homer's asinine moralfaggotry
And that exactly illustrates the point I made about the story being changed to match the morality of the Greeks. Before you say "it wasn't common morality", this book and it's moral issues resonated with all of Greece at the time. So I think you have an uphill battle trying to explain how the Iliad and it's morals were completely irrelevant to the Greeks. This is just more of (you) talking out of your asshole.
>Vengefulness and deception are applauded as good by the Greeks evidently, since they engage in them without problem or remorse.
That's bad reasoning. The world had two world wars in the 20th century and killed hundreds of millions collectively. Can we therefore conclude that there is no modern morality and that killing people is considered ok? No. We actually can't. Because that's retarded reasoning, the same reasoning you are using here.
>You might as well be a woman for being so stupid. Keep coping
Ok, I'm a gay coping woman, you got me. But if you can't provide any evidence for your theories they aren't the facts that you think they are. Cope.

>>22691308
in that book (the world of odysseus), appendix ii schliemman's troy—one hundred years after; it's like 20 pages if you are actually interested. yes, there is a city called troy, and yes it is probably the very same troy in the iliad. is that all the evidence you need to believe something so improbable? that THE trojan war happened, not just A trojan war? it's literally impossible to learn these things from archaeology unless we have access to contemporary texts, which we don't

>>22691416
contemporaneous texts*, especially considering that the hittites fell before troy did

>>22691416
None of this disproves anything I have stated in this thread. Troy existed. It was sacked during the general period in question. There were maritime campaigns throughout the Mediterranean where this was extremely common during the period in question. The story of the campaign was important enough that it was retold for centuries and an adaptation of the story was made in an epic poem. All of this is fact. To then conclude the epic poem and the original events have absolutely no relation and that the original events were meaningless and unimportant is just incredibly bizarre. They passed down a completely meaningless story with no details for hundreds of years only for Homer to add 100% of the detail? Or the oral story of Troy arrived at Homers generation, after hundreds of years and he totally rejected every single detail and added his own from scratch? Or are we arguing that the story became so watered down over the generations that by the time it reached homers generation 100% of the details were lost? Ok but how can we know what percentage of the story is true or false? Just because we have concluded that it’s possible that it could be made up doesn’t automatically mean the entirety of it was made up. The majority of the story could also be true, mostly based on fact, gods aside, and passed down through the generations. To say you know it’s 100% made up and there is no room for the possibility that any of it is based on fact you should provide evidence of your claim. If you have none your statement is just based on bad reasoning. You only provided evidence that it could all be fabricated in the mind of Homer, not that it was. imo, the debate is settled until someone produces evidence. No, calling me a gay coping woman isn’t evidence. Try again.

>>22690511
Posts like this are obvious psy-ops to make me hate the white race because cuck whites willing to sacrifice ethnic and cultural homogeneity for the sake of industry really do exist all over America. Burn your shitty country to the ground already.

>>22691727
*hate the white race yet it’s working because

>>22690685
>education
Aka brainwashing to accept the cultural Geist.

>>22691478
>Troy existed. It was sacked during the general period in question. There were maritime campaigns throughout the Mediterranean where this was extremely common during the period in question.
yes
>The story of the campaign was important enough that it was retold for centuries and an adaptation of the story was made in an epic poem.
you're completely begging the question here, and i hate to use fallacy talk, but youre assuming this is fact without any actual evidence for this assumption. whether or not its plausible is not evidence for whether or not it happened
>To say you know it’s 100% made up
i never said this, i only said the trojan war never happened, which indeed is just as unprovable as asserting that it did. i don't know anything about what happened, because you CAN'T know what happened
you've also proven yourself a dumb retard in being completely unable to distinguish between two different anons. i don't know why you think you should be arguing at all considering how dumb you are

>>22685741
genius

>>22688110
>the iliad is completely unreliable as a historical document
Indeed. There's no evidence Aphrodite ever went to Troy.

>>22694559
Take it back! I need this you son of a bitch!

>>22692269
Not that anon but I can't help but feel like the poem plus troy being a real place plus the reference to it from presocratics being something that really happened puts the validity of the trojan war being a thing that really happened in the 70% did happen / 30% didn't happen range at least. Granted it may not have gone down as the poem said it did, and it could very well just have been one of the skirmishes you mentioned, but the effect that it had on the greek guist is, in my opinion, all it really takes to make it into "The" trojan war that you speak of. Completely against my own statements here, though I stand by them, isn't the existence of menelaus highly contested? In that people put him in the place of a kind of signifier for the male greek spirit opposite hellen (the hellenistic ideal)?

>>22692269
Shut the fuck up faggot. I'm probably old enough to be your father and was studying logic when you were a sperm in your mothers diseased cunt. Most historians agree that the physical location of troy is the same as the one described in the books. If you think they are completely unrelated and it's a total coincidence you are a massive fucking retard. Just because you read some skeptical clickbait book of the week doesn't make you a genius.
> i only said the trojan war never happened, which indeed is just as unprovable as asserting that it did.
> i don't know anything about what happened,
So, you are saying A) "i don't know anything about what happened" and B) "the trojan war never happened (and this position is unprovable)". Ok, YOUR POSITION IS COMPLETELY FUCKING RETARDED and makes absolutely no sense.
>you've also proven yourself a dumb retard in being completely unable to distinguish between two different anons.
That would be completely the reverse faggot. I suspected you were two completely different anons. which is why I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you wanted a real discussion about this but now I actually think you are samefagging.
> i don't know why you think you should be arguing at all considering how dumb you are
BURN! You got me anon. I'm super dumb! My position is in alignment with contemporary historians, yours is not and is completely RETARDED and makes no sense, you say "we can't know anything". I am a retard for engaging with little microdick faggot trolls like you online. Complete waste of my time.

>>22694687
>If you think they are completely unrelated and it's a total coincidence you are a massive fucking retard.
i am agreeing with you in one of my posts, "yes, there is a city called troy, and yes it is probably the very same troy in the iliad."
>So, you are saying A) "i don't know anything about what happened" and B) "the trojan war never happened (and this position is unprovable)".
yes, maybe someday, gramps, you'll be able to understand

>>22686078
Citizen soldier with homes and trades.

>>22694764
I don't care what your faggot scramblehead position is on this issue anymore, I'm just going to talk past you and address the facts. There is evidence of fortifications and weapons and signs of destruction in the layers corresponding to that time period, evidence of fire, and the discovery of a small number of arrowheads in the archaeological layer of Hisarlik. Between 1300 and 1000 BC, the city, including its citadel, was destroyed twice, if not three times.. There are red flags everywhere, the story of the Iliad itself, the Hittite record, the bronze age collapse in general, the archeological record. Some people like this faggot I'm responding to are so skeptical that they literally need the discovery of the Trojan Horse itself, fully intact and dated with an inscription that says "Trojan war happened here", in order to believe a war could have happened, even though wars like this happened constantly back then during that period.
> "I don't know anything but I know it didn't happen"
Fuck off

>>22694885
(continued)
Also, I should point out that this autism over whether or not there is absolute concrete evidence that a war happened or not is totally irrelevant to my original post in this thread which was speculation about how a real trojan war could have happened to influence The Iliad story. Unless someone can prove indisputably that *it did not happen* there remains the possibility that it did and so it does not discredit my speculation or anyone else's. This whole thread of retards chiming in and derailing the discussion into this hairsplitting autistic nonsense has been totally asinine. Yes, anything could have happened. Homer might have been ten people or one, The Iliad could have been completely made up or based on real events. Nobody knows. Wonderful. My speculation remains. If it had happened, I think it could have happened in the way I outlined, that was my point. Fuck, its so annoying that you can't even make the slightest comment online without some pencil necked faggot WELL ACCCKTUALLY entering and hairsplitting every detail and derailing everything.

>>22695423
you're just mad that we live in an age in which it's no longer tenable to believe in fantasies, which is a lot of what the Iliad (or any epic) is. it's an idealized portrait of the 'Age of Heroes,' when men were so strong they could throw boulders, where the gods were directly involved in human affairs. now we have no heroes, no gods, and youre crying about it. none of it happened, there are no and never were any heroes, and everything worth dying for no longer exists

>>22695517
Yeah, that's not what I was thinking at all. I imagined the war like any other sacking of a city at the time which occurred during the late bronze age collapse.

>>22695658
ok, well not a single greek would agree with you there. besides, if it were so mundane, so typical, under your own logic, why did the story of the war survive for four hundred years?

>>22695664
Nta, but read literally any good book on mythmaking and cultural formation. Also, >>22686236.

>>22695668
lol, i am >>22686236

>>22695664
> ok, well not a single greek would agree with you there.
Why not?
> if it were so mundane, so typical, under your own logic, why did the story of the war survive for four hundred years?
I meant "like any other sacking of a city" in contrast to your comment about gods, mythical characters and heroes, not 100% exactly the same in every conceivable way. I didn't imagine any of that nonsense you brought up, I imagined a normal earthly military campaign like the others along the coastline, but with Greeks against Trojans. What could have made it exceptional enough to tell a story? Maybe they used a clever military tactic to get into the city? Maybe the campaign was extremely profitable? Maybe they captured tons of slaves who kept the story of their homeland alive through the ages. Who knows. Are you really this autistic or is this a bot or are you some adderrall freak like Destiny or a trollfag? It's like there's one of you assholes on every board of 4chan just living to waste someones time with the stupidest questions totally derailing the conversation.

>>22695679
Why the fuck would it be implausible for a tale about a war to survive and become part of a culture? War is the most common theme in oral literary culture. Especially when it serves as an origin story for the Greeks and many of the houses derived their lineage from the characters.

>>22685741
Kek

>"The trojan horse wouldn;t wor -ACK!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjShDCqs7jk&ab_channel=ABCLibrarySales

>>22691029
>Vengefulness and deception are applauded as good by the Greeks evidently, since they engage in them without problem or remorse.
NTA but did you miss the parts where Achilles' own suffering from the death of Patrocles has
taught him to respect the grief of Priam, the part where he was doomed by the gods to die by cowardly Paris' arrow for the folly of his mistreatment of Hector's body? The part where none of the Achean ships, laden with booty and loot, have a hard time making it home, and most of their warriors instead of coming home covered in riches and glory meet an untimely and inglorious death at sea? The part where the lusty Agamemnon is deviously murdered by his wife? The part where Odysseus - explicitly named as the wisest of Acheans by the narrator and the gods in the story alike - didn't want anything to do with the war, and came back home through a harrowing journey with nothing from it aside from the grief and suffering he endured in years spent fighting, to find himself not welcomed as a hero but forgotten by everyone but his dog and his wet nurse, his house in disarray and his honor sullied? The part where bloodthirsty Idomeneus, always quick to placate gods with sacrifices, was tricked into sacrificing his own son? The part with the proud Ajax the Lesser, who disresped the protection granted by the gods and raped Cassandra, was forced to seek the same protection himself, and then drowned in the sea in punishment for his pride and defiance? The part where Ajax the Greater was dishonored in coveting Achilles' armor, and his brother Teucer was exiled from hone for not briging their father a body to bury? The part where the only people making it home with no issue being Menelaus, who took the fight for an honorable cause of protection of his home and marriage, sacred before the gods; Nestor - who took no part in the sharing of loot from the bloody sack of the city, and departed as soon as he fulfilled his oath of alliance; and Diomedes, who honored to gods and always fought with honor and respected his enemies as much as his allies? The part where the most glorious and wise act of Achilles - his parlay with Priam - was forgotten by his son Neoptolem, whose thirst for vengeance drove him to dishonor his father's vows and summon ruin upon himself, leading to Achilles' ancestral kigdom being partitioned between his enemies?

It's kinda hard to argue that these esops have nothing to do with ancient Greek culture when Homeric and Posthomeric epics containing them WERE the Greek culture.

>>22691029
>Vengefulness and deception are applauded as good by the Greeks evidently, since they engage in them without problem or remorse.
NTA but did you miss the parts where Achilles' own suffering from the death of Patrocles has
taught him to respect the grief of Priam, the part where he was doomed by the gods to die by cowardly Paris' arrow for the folly of his mistreatment of Hector's body?

The part where none of the Achean ships, laden with booty and loot, have an easy time making it home, and most of their warriors instead of coming home covered in riches and glory meet an untimely and inglorious death at sea?

The part where the lusty Agamemnon is deviously murdered by his wife?

The part where Odysseus - explicitly named as the wisest of Acheans by the narrator and the gods in the story alike - didn't want anything to do with the war, and came back home through a harrowing journey with nothing to show for it aside from the grief and suffering he endured in years spent fighting, to find himself not welcomed as a hero but forgotten by everyone but his dog and his wet nurse, his house in disarray and his honor sullied?

The part where the bloodthirsty Idomeneus, always quick to placate gods with sacrifices, was tricked into sacrificing his own son?

The part where proud Ajax the Lesser, who disresped the protection granted by the gods and raped Cassandra in Athena's shrine, was forced to seek the same protection himself, and then drowned in the sea in punishment for his pride and defiance?

The part where Ajax the Greater dishonored himself coveting Achilles' armor, and his brother Teucer was exiled from home for not briging their father a body to bury?

The part where the only people making it home with no issue being Menelaus, who took the fight for an honorable cause of protection of his home and marriage, sacred before the gods; Nestor - who took no part in the sharing of loot from the bloody sack of the city, and departed as soon as he fulfilled his oath of alliance; and Diomedes, who honored to gods and always fought with honor and respected his enemies as much as his allies?

The part where the most glorious and wise act of Achilles - his parlay with Priam - was forgotten by his son Neoptolem, whose thirst for vengeance drove him to dishonor his father's vows and summon ruin upon himself, leading to Achilles' ancestral kigdom being partitioned between his enemies?

It's kinda hard to argue that these esops have nothing to do with ancient Greek culture when Homeric and Posthomeric epics containing them WERE the Greek culture. Obviously, the actual Greek people did not adhere exactly to these ideals, which is the issue that made those principles interesting and inspiring in the story. But because they are ideals - goals and principles to strive for, and the Greek society of the time evidently recognized them as such, as seen reflected in their most significant cultural heritage.

>>22696580
great post

in the aeneid this dude is like "there are totally going to be a buncha sneaky greeks in there lads" but then this other greek dude turns up and pretends to have defected and is like "oh no what happened was they built this big holy horse so big because i bet the trojans could NEVER manage to get it in their tiny city" and then the guy who was like "this horse is an obvious trap" gets eaten by a couple of snakes so everyone is like "ok well fuck the greeks, we can totally steal this rad horse!" and they also let that defecting dude in so he can open it for them later

- There was a city that was in the same location as Homer described that fits the description perfectly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whgnlo-C7mM

- The city was destroyed several times before the poem was written and at roughly the time many argue the poem seems to takes place. First by earthquake, next by human beings. They have found evidence of arrows, spears, fire, etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpHlN6U3JJ4&t=1m20s

- It was extremely common on the coastline at the time for people roaming the seas in large groups to sack cities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse#/media/File:Bronze_Age_End.svg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9jqwLYeVtk
(This is an written witness account of one such attack):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9jqwLYeVtk&t=5m00s

- There are Hittite records that suggest some of the Greeks at the time were powerful, active in the area where Troy would have been at the time:
https://greekreporter.com/2023/08/22/ancient-hittite-records-prove-trojan-war-happened/

- There is archeological evidence from Egypt that some Greeks might have even been sailing the with the sea people in the Mediterranean during this time period
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4&t=724s

- There is nothing the requires gods or men who can lift tremendous boulders, heroes or magic for there to have been some war that was noted by the Greeks. The Greeks sacking a city at this location would be pretty unremarkable event for the location and time.

It seems a massive stretch that Homer coincidentally imagined a city being sacked at this exact location described in the Iliad without him being told anything about it. It's not concrete evidence that a war happened and the tale of it was passed to him, but I see absolutely nothing remarkable about this being a possibility. In fact, I think the evidence leans more in favor of this being the case than it being a massive coincidence.

As this anon points out >>22685978 a "wooden horse" could have been a boat with a horse-head protome. I don't think this is true because these were from a later time period and more to do with phoenicians and the story just seems so unlikely that they dragged in the horse boat without investigating it. It is possible.

My head canon is that the Greeks arrived, the kings son was the one basically in charge of the city and military, they fought and eventually he was challenged by the best Greek fighter and lost the fight and his half-dead body was dragged in front of the city until the king opened the gate to try to save his son which allowed them to sack the city. This 'trick' that allowed them to sack the city was noted and it eventually became the story of the Iliad.

Then again, maybe it was just a coincidence and Homer had no idea that anything happened in the area of Troy when he wrote his poem. There's still ongoing excavations at Troy to this day so we may know the answer in our lifetime.

>>22697849
Now do tell me about the Homeric question. Was Homer a single person?

>>22697901
Whether he were a multitude of poets writing at the same time, a multitude of hundreds of poets handing the story off through time like a torch or one poet who wrote the story or any combination of the above all of the facts I laid out do not change. So why are you bringing this up? Homer hasn’t been identified. This is common knowledge and mentioned in almost every piece of media that covers Homer or the Iliad. I’ve known this for over twenty years and just a few weeks ago I listened to an extremely long lecture that went into this in great detail, I’m well aware of it and changes absolutely nothing about anything I brought up. Another pointless derailing stupid question from anonfaggot who refuses to fuck off.

>>22697961
no that wasn't me. by the way you're like sixty or seventy years late on your scholarship. we will never "know the answer" by the way because there is no answer to be known. btw stop trying to rationalise the Iliad you faggot its an epic poem not a fucking war memoir

Who gives a shit if the trojan war really happened? It doesn't change how hard the poems rock and how influential the idea was. This thread got really gay.

>>22698016
> btw stop trying to rationalise the Iliad you faggot its an epic poem not a fucking war memoir
Nah, I’ll do what I want faggot. There are tons of respected historians and archeologists that believe this was based on a real war and that interests me. If it doesn’t interest you THATS OK you don’t have to chime in anymore and samefag through this thread with your stupid comments.

>>22698164
Start another topic in this thread if you don’t care about the one being discussed, otherwise shut the fuck up.

>>22698171
>tons of respected historians and archeologists
name ONE who within the last twenty years upholds this position and we will see how respectable they are

>>22698174
>No! I want to bicker about the inconsequential, unverifiable bullshit. I love gobbling up so much the excrement of pseuds
I expected nothing less fag.

>>22691061
>exodus, or that there really was a primeval flood as presented in enuma elish
this did happen though

>>22698178
> name ONE
Eric H. Cline
American author, historian, archaeologist, and professor of ancient history and archaeology at The George Washington University (GWU) in Washington, D.C., where he is Professor of Classics and Anthropology and the former Chair of the Department of Classical and Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations,[1] as well as Director of the GWU Capitol Archaeological Institute.[2] He is also the advisor for the undergraduate archaeology majors, for which he was awarded the GWU Award for "Excellence in Undergraduate Departmental Advising" (2006).[1] Cline served as co-editor of the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research along with Christopher Rollston from 2014–2020.[3][4]

>>22698187
I get it. You think there was no war and don’t want people to talk about the historicity question. That’s cool. But, nevertheless, people are talking about it and you can’t do anything about that. The easy solution is for you to fuck off.

>>22698469
just going off of the amazon description for The Trojan War: A Very Short Introduction, "showing for instance that Homer, who lived in the Iron Age, for the most part depicted Bronze Age warfare with accuracy." what??? people ride chariots and then hop off them to engage in one-on-one combat. Homer didnt know shit about bronze age warfare. also worth noting that an important aspect of combat is that people throw boulders at each other, which i presume cline thinks is part of bronze age warfare
anyways, you believe in what you want to believe, and i'll keep replying to you telling you youre wrong. because i think its fun

>>22685741
Holy shit mutts destroyed

>>22689406
>Because it was made by France.
>a country whose greatest architectural "achievement" is literally a pylon

>>22685680
I'm an uneducated peasant who doesn't have a degree, and missed out on the classics when I was younger, boo hoo. But I had heard of the Trojan War, and the horse, and all that.

I tried reading The Iliad years ago, but couldn't get into it - Achilles, supposedly a hero, was a whiner who went crying to mammy all the damn time. Recently I read *The Silence of the Girls* and *The Song of Achilles*, both set around that war, and these were eye opening. I don't think reading one alone would be enough, each gives a different perspective to the other, and the comparison is valuable.

Anyway, the big surprise for me was that the horse was one of the least interesting things. Who cares about the fucking horse. The drama is all done by the time this equus ex machina is dropped in.

I'm going to try to read the Iliad again, and hopefully the Odyssey after that. There's more to the story than a stupid horse.

>>22690479
Kek

>>22700149
>Recently I read *The Silence of the Girls* and *The Song of Achilles*, both set around that war, and these were eye opening
You really are a retarded peasant

>>22700149
i like the part in the song of achilles when patroklus spits on achilles' cock and looks up at him and hes like 'i want you so bad' and then patroklus sits on his cock and then they both cummie

>>22689701
>It actually kind of is a trojan horse if you think about it. The "tired hungry and poor" plaque on the bottom as justification for endless immigration being a proxy for the people inside the horse.
It was written by a female poet. Can you guess her ethnicity?
Hint: spwaking of immigration, its the same ethnicity of the guy who coined the term "melting pot"
What a coheincidence!

>>22697849
Wasn't there a theory that Hector was just Homer's invention?

>>22699216
>>22695889
>>22693965
>>22690730
samefag tranny

>>22703833
The only one I know of is the one that says menelaus and hellen were poetic ideals for the hellenistic mind set. I could see how they could make hector/achilles the hellenistic spirit in that case raging to reconcile the unreconciled ideals of the time. As far as Im aware priam and agamemnon are generally consider to be the real figureheads of "The" trojan war.

tis but a metaphor

>>22685741
>America becomes wealthiest and powerful country on earth
>Anti-migration countries become giant museums that rely on American tourism to live
Uh, old worldsisters? Our response?

>>22694885
Based.

>>22689761.
>They also demonize pretty every who isn't alive today for being backwards, but praise the WW2 generation and the Union in the Civil War.
WW2, the Civil War, and the Civil Rights Movements were the only times history in which the US acted in a remotely Christian way, as in, they showed concern for the weak, despised, Other. By this standard, the US is a world-historically evil country with a few moments of decency sprinkled here and there.

>It's pathetic and ridiculous that the only White people who aren't demonized are those who completely abandon any loyalty to their own, but non White heroes are those who put their own first.
Moral standards aren't the same for the weak and the powerful. It is righteous for the weak to rebel against their oppressors. The self-interest of the powerful is inherently unjust.

>>22689761
>if most people don't want diversity
>if the unprecedently diverse people of the USA don't want diversity
Uh, anon ...
There's a strong argument to be made for monoculturalism, but Americans are the last ones to be making it.

>>22685680
I mean horses are cool OP, who wouldn't want a toy looking horse that is especially giant aswell?

>>22685849
Could have been worse.