/lit/ - Literature

Every time the same shitty threads about the same shitty authors.

>>22685779
Where did he say that?

>>22685809
>While Karl Marx did not write much about the nature of the dictatorship of the proletariat, The Communist Manifesto (1848) stated "their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions."[17] In light of the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, Marx wrote that "there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."[18]

>>22685779
>>money is the root of all evil
What if humans are?
What if existence and universe itself is?
What now, Marxie boy?

>>22685779

>>22685824
>While Karl Marx did not write much about the nature of the dictatorship of the proletariat
As I thought.

>>22685882
but he is right? The companies do force you to buy shit you don't even want, otherwise, you won't be accepted in certain social circles, an example of that is how some girls won't even date guys who have android phones, this is just the tip of the icerberg however.

>>22685882

you anti communists and atheists are really the same. you spend time criticising the most retarded fairy tales written by midwits, and you still misunderstand them. kys.

>>22685889
>so we will have a dictatorship of the proletariat
Dictatorship? I dont know, that doesnt sound very good
>dont worry Marx didnt really mean a dictatorship, it would be of the proletariat!
Really? What did he say about it?
>he didnt say much
I dont know man, sounds kinda vague
>it will be for the best
Ok then, if it will be for the best, that means more freedom and happyness right?
>yeah, right, right. But anyway, lets get this dictatorship started, its the only path to a posterior freedom and happyness

>>22685779
>communism is... LE EVIL
fucking kill yourself

>>22685995
Communism actually is le evil.

>>22686004
ok retard

>>22685995
I'd much rather kill communists

>>22685995
Glue you dick on.

>>22685779
>we must
Wrong

>>22685863
>Hmmm acshually EVERYTHING is le bad, so you should not complain about worker exploitation, ok??

>>22685779
What circumstances makes private property more productive and beneficial than collective property?
Productive and beneficial as in providing better quality goods and service to be people.
Surely one method of property ownership can't always be the best option but also I can see why private is often bad.

>>22685892
>The companies do force you to buy shit you don't even want
Except, uh, they don't.
>otherwise, you won't be accepted in certain social circles
You are free to choose your social circle.
>some girls won't even date guys who have android phones
If you must fuck such superficial bitches, just borrow a friend's iPhone until you get into their pants.

>>22685995

>>22685809
In his famous play, Romeo and Juliet.

I like how there are people who still believe Marx said any of this.

>>22685779
>therefore we must have a bloody revolution followed by a tyranical government by a bunch of unprepared people
That was Lenin.

Why is it always the dorkiest and least intimidating jews who are the most obsessed with violent revolution and terror...Lenin, Marx, Trotsky, Kun, Luxemburg, Eisner, etc.

The true not readingness of the this board is fully exposed whenever Marx is brought up. They do not at all understand what the fuck he means. Money is the root of all evil? That's a catholic argument on ethical grounds. Marx would cry if he heard that attributed to him.

The last tankie bait thread got jannied.

all the psueds who shit on marx have never read a word hes written and if they do its the manifesto and its always in bad faith

>>22685995
For every 1 bleeding heart who loves his fellow people, there's 1000 who despise each other. It's impossible for communism to work unless the group is small and somewhat homogenous, and currency probably has to be omitted completely.

>>22685779
Can we stop straw-man'ing for once on this board

>>22687699
That's not how communism works you dolt. You're describing anarchism or other stupid ideologies. How does capitalism function? If humans are so selfish, wouldn't the majority (workers) want to further enrich themselves by killing landlords, shop owners and taking their goods and land. Yet they don't. So how does capitalism function?

>>22685921
You have to get inside his mind and analytical structure to chart what he thought about the dictatorship of the proletariat. He considered this current era to be a false democracy where only the true dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie mattered. Well, eventually the proletariat will set up a system that only caters to their interests and will deny the Bourgeoisie everything. See, this is Marx's and Hegel's point. For the master to be the master no matter how evil absolutely needs the slave to exist and therefore has a certain floor of cruelty they can't cross. The slave has no such desire to continue their bondage so they can simply kill their master without a care. This inherent and existential imbalance of power always crops up in situations where you see gross imbalance of power or abuse. One place you see this is during the paranoia over slave revolts that never appeared as rarely as they were feared and dreaded.

>>22687155
Should focus on technological advancements to reach post scarcity so that people don't need jobs in the first place, perhaps. Or, do strikes and protests and so on in the meantime.
Don't create this meme pseudoscientific Hegelian like eschatology about class conflicts.

>>22687880

Yes because historically, every time there has been technological innovation that made people's work obsolete, those people were then granted luxurious new lives in which they were free to pursue their true passions like art. I'm sure the same thing will happen to all those who get replaced by AI

>>22685779
Tfw you didn’t read Marx

>>22687930
It's your only real hope anyway.

Everyone against socialism is basically just screeching in fear that some of their precious consumption goods might become more expensive.

>>22687995
>everytime socialism has been tried there was massacre and dictatorship, not oaradise on earth as promised
>ohhh you must hate socialism because you think you wont be able to buy precious goooodssss
Yeah Im sure thats the reason, not because its a wish fuflilment revenge fantasy

>>22687326
you are literally describing the pipeline of a company, through precise marketing and societal manipulation fueled by their immense economic power, forcing you to buy their products
>noooo I said you should only borro...
unironically kill yourself

>>22688025
revenge is good if it's justified you stupid idiot
most dictatorships have been capitalist structures

>>22687728
Do you think that might change if they felt they could get away with it?

>>22688225
They can get away with it. But their told that soceity will devolve if this happens, into lawless, low living standards of "communism". So, now that we have proven capitalism can be maintained through verbal persuasion and appeals to human decency, why can't communism.

It's all about violent revolution with these people. The ideology is an excuse. They're just hateful and destructive.

>>22687760
Do NOT lump Hegel in with this retarded bullshit.

The lordship and bondage dialectic is an early shape of self-consciousness, and wasn't even the state that Hegel's present day was in according to himself. Lordship and bondage is pre-stoicism, and the slave DOESN'T revolt against the master, in fact he finds value in his work which makes him negate the master, which is why the dialectic fails for Hegel. The other alternative is mutual recognition, which is where you have blips of egalitarian peace or whatever.


Marx was inspired by Hegel, but Hegel would've had none of this gay shit considering the lordship and bondage dialectic was an unfinished shape of consciousness that CAN'T EVEN EXIST within capitalism. The knight of virtue and the way of the world is the shape of consciousness that is experienced with the birth of industrialization RETARD.


Also another important aspect of Hegel's lordship and bondage was that the slave EARNED his slavery. The master and slave were defined by who was less committed to their own life, and in a game of chicken the one who had more courage won and became the master, because the slave valued life more than their freedom. For Marx the slave is completely aware of their freedom, yet they yearn to actualize it REGARDLESS of the mortal consequences of their actions. The problem is they lack the organization necessary to obtain their freedom. Hegel's bondsman is a slave BECAUSE he chose it, not because of some moronic collective theory of power.

>>22688221
One thing that bothers me about marxists/socialists/commies is they refuse to acknowledge that humans are kind of inherently like that. Long ago we had clans and families that took care of each other, but they didn't try to go out of their way to sacrifice for foreign tribes. They had alliances, but they took care of their own first and foremost. For some reason this upsets them. People still do that now. That's what the privileged people they complain about do. It's basically turned into complaining about White people. It's hilarious because usually the same people never seem that upset when a non White person helps out their kid and gives them an unfair advantage. They seem to focus on middle to upper middle class Whites while ignoring the many non Whites who are pretty much in the same boat. May be their parents had it rough, but they didn't, but somehow that's acceptable. It's odd.

>>22688241
>How does capitalism function? If humans are so selfish, wouldn't the majority (workers) want to further enrich themselves by killing landlords, shop owners and taking their goods and land. Yet they don't. So how does capitalism function?
Answer?

>>22688230
Unless society collapsed i'm pretty sure they would go to prison.

>>22688244
Because self preservation ultimately wins out? Going around starting fights with everyone is poor survival strategy.

>>22688244
You'd better hope you have enough people for the revolution or you're going to face prison. I think most people are dissuaded by this. You have to be willing to sacrifice for your cause. Most people no matter their cause are probably not willing to do this. May be they would eventually.

>>22688258
>>22688255
>>22688245
The majority of society are workers. So, if they did follow their avarice to better their position, they would at least try to overthrow the capitalists or landlords. If they were to establish communism afterwards is not important.
If it is easy to stop anti-capitalist forces in a society by imprisonment, violence and threat of violence from the state (proving capitalism needs a state, but that's neither here nor there) can't the DotP stop this through the state also, or communism stop it through general society with the justification of stopping the counter-revolution? It can.

>>22688274
Well that has happened throughout history. People pretty regularly throw off leaders when they aren't happy with them. But then they appoint new leaders.

>>22685779
>He just figured out that marx was a kike pseud that contradicted himself.
Fucking r*dditrefugee

>>22688285
Yes, but appointing the new leaders is the problem. If they were, as said previously, following their avarice, as supposedly humans have contempt for any person outside of their immediate relations, they would always try by any way possible the leader or society that would further the worker. yet that doesn't happen. Furthermore, capitalism has stopped this urge entirely, first in the bourgeois nations, and then in the poor ones (all nations are bourgeois). Through exploitation of the superstructure like Marx would never believe, they have created a simulacra of change, a way to calm this revolutionary spirit. The system of voting, of constitutions, of other liberal notions, they have even made the original compromise (unions) into another demagogue equal and more real the communism. This proves that it is possible to contain the urge.
Thesis: Human nature is inherently out for it's own gain, at the expense of all others excluding the immediate kin group.
Antithesis: If this was true though, how come the people are in a placid state when they could gain more material gain through theft or revolution.
Synthesis: It is possible to supress this "human nature" as is done in capitalism, through communism. Thus this common argument, the appeal to the selfish human nature, is false.

>>22688214
Commies are insane

>>22687155
>so you should not complain about worker exploitation, ok??
Form your own worker co-operatives. Like Mondragon. Simple as.

>>22688430
Mondragon exploits workers like every firm.

>>22685824
He shifted away from that idea later in life

>>22688531
You cannot vamprize your labor-hours surplus value if you are part of the group doing the vamprizing. Because that would imply that workers are capitalists, too.
And that would in turn imply that even an individual self-employed freelancer is actually a capitalist, exploiting the group consisting of 1 human.
Which would deconstruct the terminology into gibberish.

It's like the execution of Charles I in England, performed under the adherence to the Two Bodies of a King theory. That the king was executed solely for the benefit of the king. Long live the king!

>>22688559
One part of the working day is spent producing the value necessary to reproduce the worker, the other part is spent producing surplus value which is appropriated by the capitalist. This 'capitalist' can be the workers in a co-op, Elon Musk or the paki running his own kiosk. I suggest reading Capital.

>>22688274
>The majority of society are workers
Once, the majority of society *were* manual laborers, but heavy machinery, automation, and modern tech has obviated much of this; today, the majority of society delivers pizzas and suchlike. The 'situation' has changed dramatically, anon. Take your shoes off.

>>22685779
The central banks made money worthless, if it is the root of all evil then evil isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

>>22688304
No, you are a fucking nerd. Touch grass.

>>22688601
>the other part is spent producing surplus value which is appropriated by the capitalist. This 'capitalist' can be the workers
This 'capitalist' can be the worker himself, yes.
Hence, freelancer individual workers are inherently evil: they exploit themselves for the sake of themselves in a worker co-op group of 1 human total.
Hence, any independent individuals must be purged, and everyone should succumb to the will of Party and Big Brother.
Riiight.

>>22685779
He was a proponent of central banking.

>>22688687
>central banking
Which ironically is the real root of all evil. Interest-rate, and credit-money. There is always more debt than one can repay.

>>22688687
He was, money is merely a tool that was created to provide the ultimate placeholder in fungible exchanges of goods and services.

>>22688703
You are still anthropomorphizing money into something it isn't. Even in the days before fiat the supposedly "super heckin smart" rulers of OP's imagination still found ways to devalue their respective currencies to fit their political agendas. If a man owes a bank a small amount of money then that is a man's problem. If a man owes a bank a vast sum of money, then that is the bank's problem. See how relative it becomes?

>>22685784
This post is the conclusion of /lit/.

>>22688626
In the unlikely event wherein freelancers pose a threat to communism they will be purged unapologetically. Most likely it will remain a fantasy of yours though.

>>22688798
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_conditional
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

I just told you that your 'exploitation' concept is shit.

>>22685889
Have you ever read the communist manifesto it’s completely radical:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

>>22688820
I don't think you understand the concept.

>>22688830
these where political demands of the German working class in 1848-49, not some formula to achieve communism.

>>22688601
Wtf you talking about. So if I paint someone’s house and charge them for it I’m doing something dishonourable???

>>22688850
No. "Exploitation" is not a moral judgement, but a fact of capitalist production.

>>22688846
There’s always some excuse isn’t there? The obvious fact is that Marx wanted a violent revolution where the proles seize the state

>>22688863
Who am I exploiting? Myself? Why don’t you elaborate

>>22688834
I don't think you are intelligent enough to understand the refutation.

>>22688869
If you're generating value beyond what you need to sustain yourself as a worker then you are indeed exploiting yourself.

>>22688870
projecting. link more wiki articles bro

>>22688881
So I should not be allowed any luxuries in life? What counts as sustaining oneself? Surely I can survive sleeping on the street so i don’t really need a house right? How many calories a day do I get? I mean the stuff you’re saying sounds insane

>>22688866
>Marx wanted a violent revolution where the proles seize the state
nobody said otherwise?

>>22685779
There have been a lot of peaceful communist parties all over the world that wanted to achieve communism through constitutional reforms and fought for power at the official democratic elections.
All of these parties were brutally slaughtered, their leaders (and, usually, members) killed and imprisoned. The whole countries were destroyed along with their democracies, lest those democracies let commies participate!
The worst reactionary revolt has happened in Indonesia. The third biggest communist party in the world has vanished overnight. It is well known that their leader has refused to arm, despite being warned by Mao himself. The following genocide in Indonesia was the direct cause of Chinese Cultural Revolution and the radicalization of Pol Pot (according to his own interviews). And this kept happening all over the world, from Iran to Guatemala (where young doctor named Ernesto Guevara have witnessed with his own eyes how easy an unarmed nation is toppled).
There was a lot of different flavors of communism, including the most peaceful and tolerant (even to religion!) ones. It's just that only the most violent have survived and all the others were killed and forgotten.

>>22688897
Lol, bullshit. Communism is about stealing property. There’s no way to do that peacefully. Kulaks didn’t want to give up their land so they were hanged by the communist thieves. You’re not victims. “Peaceful” communist parties who state in their party policies that they wish to deprive everyone of the right to property are not peaceful.

>>22688886
>What counts as sustaining oneself?
Whatever is needed (food, leisure activites, housing etc.) so you will come back to work tomorrow. This will obviously eat into your profits as a self-employed painter, so you will have an interest in keeping it to the minimum.

>>22688902
Educate yourself on the difference between the private and personal property, you moron. Unless you own a factory, you are basically defending the people who exploit you and live off you.
>there's no way to do it peacefully
Nothing is made peacefully. When the government makes the law, is it imposed peacufully? No, it is imposed under the threat of imprisonment. When the narkobarons are forced to stop their business, do they want to give up their fortune? You are hypocrite. If those parties were democratically elected, then it would mean that the nation is okay with it.

>>22688920
Do you realise how ideological you sound? Real life does not conform to your abstract schematic structure. A self-employed painter does not distinguish between “profit” and “whatever is needed so you come back to work tomorrow”. Any money he makes above the cost of his tools is profit to him.

>>22688923
Kulaks were landowning peasants hanged by the communist thieves, not rich fat cats. People in my family own small businesses, which the communists would come with guns to destroy if they were “elected”. It doesn’t mean the nation is ok with it, it means 51%+ are ok with it.

>>22688927
>A self-employed painter does not distinguish between “profit” and “whatever is needed so you come back to work tomorrow”
Yeah they do, unless they completely forego accounting.

>>22685921
>Dictatorship? I dont know, that doesnt sound very good
Depends on context. In Marx's view, there's either a dictatorship of the working class or a dictatorship of the elite ruling class.

>>22688934
Accounting? First of all, there is literally no way to measure what you just said. I asked you if shelter is really “necessary” since people can technically sleep on the street and you responded with an extremely vague answer which basically said that anything is necessary if you consider it to be so. There is no way to measure such a thing because it’s completely subjective. How am I supposed to put this on an accounts book?

Look, I want you to just explain how your non-exploitative society would work.

Socialism is the biggest grouping of ugly people, freaks and other weird omegas in the history of mankind and that is why I hate it. Any arguments of reason come after the fact. I don’t need to study the mob of monsters to know they’re bad I just see they’re bad.

>>22688957
And who’s good? The bourgeois capitalists with their fancy office buildings and passive aggressive HR ladies speaking in soul-crushing corporate language which feigns acceptance but is really a mask for total inhuman hatred

>>22688966
>And what is good?
I’m levitating rn..

>>22688977
?
You think that’s witty

How is that any different from 19th century onward republics? 2 parties for the bourgeois or 1 part for the proletariat. What is the difference really?

>>22688931
Do you understand that Bolsheviks do not represent Communist Parties of Indonesia, Chili, Iran, et cetera? You use policies of the highly revolutionary party to describe the consequences of an anti-revolutionary, reformist party being elected. Kind of illogical, isn't it?
Also, every peasant in Soviet Russia have owned the land after the Decree on Land was passed. Kulak was the peasant who have used the labour of other peasants. Dekulakisation was brutal and over the top, but the point was to destroy reactionary class and create the worker's state. After all, why would a Kulak support socialism? The more poor other peasants are, the more land he can accumulate and the more workers he will get. It didn't happen simply because they were rich or fat.
> People in my family own small businesses, which the communists would come with guns to destroy if they were “elected”
Destroy? Doubtfull. I'd rather go with "nationalize". But there are a lot of sorts of soft socialism that doesn't interfere with petit bourgeoisie that much, and many "communist" nations, like Cuba and China, have allowed small businesses lately (after the USSR fall).
Small businesses and businesses in general are idolized because they grant you freedom and independence. In a country without oppression and full of opportunities there would be no aspiration to do business because there would be no wage-cuck hell to run from. It's merely a dream, of course.
Anyway, maybe your relatives should support communists after all. No one is ready to perfom swift and brutal shift into the communism like Lenin did, so they'll have plenty of time to make some money. And anything is better than the cold neoliberal grip on your county's neck, which will crush your relatives' businesses as well for the megacorporations to profit.

>>22688955
>How am I supposed to put this on an accounts book?
Staying with the self-employed painter: Check your bank account and see how much has been spent on wages (necessities - variable capital), materials (constant capital) and see how much is left (profits).

>>22688997
Why would there be no wage cuck hell to run from in a communist society? What? Nobody has to man the factories anymore? Nobody has to drive the trucks?
>oh yeah but it’s all for society now!
Who cares? I still have to slave away 8 hours a day in some commie factory

>>22689077
How do you quantify necessities. Do I need cat food? Maybe I should kick out my cat and let him hunt for a living. Do I need a bed? Or a house? I suppose I could sleep on the floor outside. This is just a completely subjective category you’ve made up that an accountant would not know what to do with.

>>22689086
Labour hours will be drastically reduced in communist society.

>>22689093
Can you point to a rea example of this

>>22688886
>So I should not be allowed any luxuries in life? What counts as sustaining oneself?

"Regard as true Renouncer him that makes
Worship by work, for who renounceth not
Works not as Yogin. So is that well said:
"By works the votary doth rise to faith,
And saintship is the ceasing from all works;
Because the perfect Yogin acts- but acts
Unmoved by passions and unbound by deeds,
Setting result aside.
<...>
The sovereign soul
Of him who lives self-governed and at peace
Is centred in itself, taking alike
Pleasure and pain; heat, cold; glory and shame.
He is the Yogi, he is Yukta, glad
With joy of light and truth; dwelling apart
Upon a peak, with senses subjugate
Whereto the clod, the rock, the glistering gold
Show all as one. By this sign is he known
Being of equal grace to comrades, friends,
Chance-comers, strangers, lovers, enemies,
Aliens and kinsmen; loving all alike,
Evil or good.

Sequestered should he sit,
Steadfastly meditating, solitary,
His thoughts controlled, his passions laid away,
Quit of belongings. In a fair, still spot
Having his fixed abode,- not too much raised,
Nor yet too low,- let him abide, his goods
A cloth, a deerskin, and the Kusa-grass.
There, setting hard his mind upon The One,
Restraining heart and senses, silent, calm,
Let him accomplish Yoga, and achieve
Pureness of soul, holding immovable
Body and neck and head, his gaze absorbed
Upon his nose-end, rapt from all around,
Tranquil in spirit, free of fear, intent
Upon his Brahmacharya vow, devout,
Musing on Me, lost in the thought of Me.
That Yogin, so devoted, so controlled,
Comes to the peace beyond,- My peace, the peace
Of high Nirvana!

But for earthly needs
Religion is not his who too much fasts
Or too much feasts, nor his who sleeps away
An idle mind; nor his who wears to waste
His strength in vigils. Nay, Arjuna! I call
That the true piety which most removes
Earth-aches and ills, where one is moderate
In eating and in resting, and in sport;
Measured in wish and act; sleeping betimes,
Waking betimes for duty."

>>22689091
>How do you quantify necessities
The wage bill which you will note is historically-socially determined. A Canadian constructing worker will have more/different needs owing to the particular society in which he lives in than a Qatari construction worker and so on.

>>22689128
>historically-socially determined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_chaos

Good luck calculating that, midwit.

>>22689098
Once society stops producing all the useless crap it currently makes, the necessary hours to reproduce society will be reduced immensely.

>>22689134
so the answer is "no, I can't" and you go back to the utopian fantasy. Big brain moment.

Love when the government decides what is useless for me and determines that they dont need artists so im sent to the cobalt mine. fuck you commie cunt

>>22689132
there's a good boy with his wiki link

>>22689128
So “the wage bill” = the necessities?

This theory is sounding terrible at the moment. Clearly a self-employed painter can say that his wage bill is 100% of his profit if he wants to. There’s nothing stopping him. He doesn’t get paid a “wage” or if you consider it a wage then his wage is 100% of his revenue.

>>22689134
Ok but has any communist government ever done this? All I‘be seen is Chinese sweatshops and soviet factories just as gruelling as any other if not more so

>>22689138
You still haven't explained how to deal with uncertainty and butterfly effect, faggot.

>>22689086
Redistribution of wealth and drastic social reforms will ensure a better life for workers. Soviet Union have immediately reduced the 12-hour work day to a 8-hour one. We could have made it 6-hour day nowadays. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
While I'm not against useless items (like Starbucks coffee, for example), I'm against useless jobs. The main point of any company is to produce surplus value, not the product itself. Once we reorient companies to be more effective (as opposed to being more profitable), we can get rid of jobs like effective managers or financial consultants (ideally, that is).

>>22688025
>Nooooo le hecking violence
I guarantee your capitalist country commits violence everyday, you are just so brainwashed you see it as normal.

>>22689245
>We could have made it 6-hour day nowadays.
Keynes promised 3-hour day

>>22689245
>I'm against useless jobs.
So, you are against 90% of existing jobs.

>we can get rid of jobs like effective managers or financial consultants (ideally, that is)
Native Australians abandoned agriculture and switched back to hunting-gathering, because they had no useless insurance in the face of volatile climate.

A perfect analogy of how a moron is gonna utterly fuck the boundary conditions of a dynamic system, because he is a moron.

>The main point of any company is to produce surplus value
Except that every company's point irl is to perform Veblen's strategical sabotage. But that would be against Marx's gospel, right?

>>22689304
>So, you are against 90% of existing jobs.
yeschad.jpg
Half of people believe that if their job disappeared it wouldn't change anything or would make the planet better. This is the whole thesis of Bullshit Jobs. Serving coffee, making TV, or cobbling shoes all provide some kind of value, but administrators basically spend all day trying to figure out ways to justify their jobs. We could have had a 2 hour work day by now with automation, but instead they moved all the jobs away and continued to force us to work.

>>22689325
Can you explain why any firm would want to hire people who do not provide any sort of economic value for the firm?

>>22689325
>Half of people believe that if their job disappeared it wouldn't change anything
There is a correlation between energy-use and hierarchy.

>but administrators basically spend all day trying to figure out ways to justify their jobs.
1. Assume a group of miners got a new drilling machine. You can now have more mining and miners.
2. There are too many miners now. They need managers to coordinate their activity together.
3. Managers need computers. Computers need electricity. Therefore, more fuel, more miners -> and more managers to coordinate miners.
4. Also, managers and miners need to decrease their stress level. Therefore, services, entertainment, etc. And they watch TV and consume electricity, too. Therefore, more miners -> more managers -> more gay-whores.

>>22689360
>You can now have more mining SHAFTS
typo

>>22689334
Commies would have to find a way to deal with non contributors. Otherwise you end up with some people working harder than others. Like a lazy guy showing up to a commune and not contributing in any way. They have to be kicked out eventually. Everyone needs to be on the same page and have some stake. People would be more willing to ignore some disabled guy not doing as much, but still doing what he can, but not sone able-bodied lazy guy.

>>22689334
This is completely backwards reasoning. There are reasons why people would want to not eliminate 'redundant' jobs that truly do little but take up space and force people to work for the sake of it, but that's a discussion for another time.

However, for a relevant example, firms will hire people to compete against other firms in ways that give them an advantage within the existing system, but which don't increase the overall quality of live or any other measure of value overall when you consider everyone. Advertising may get someone to spend more money on your product vs someone else's, but money spent on advertising isn't contributing to an increase in overall quality in anything but a very indirect way (i.e. it allows a given firm to survive better, but is potentially 'countered' by other firms paying more money for advertising).

>>22689375
>Like a lazy guy showing up to a commune and not contributing in any way.
Unmeasurable, by the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence

>>22689383
You can actually measure what people produce, corporations do it everyday.

>>22689389
>You can actually measure what people produce
Riiight (pic related)

>corporations do it everyday
Corporations designate thingamabobs with price-tokens. It tells us nothing about *what* is being produced and designated.

>>22689304
> you are against 90% of existing jobs
I highly doubt you truly think 90% of people only exist to maximize profits. In regards of the graph you attached I have to assume you actually meant all the service workers. But I didn't mention service workers. Marx even says that service is also a commodity, that can be produced, traded and consumed just like a normal one. Read first, respond second, you buzzword-reacting baboon.

> Native Australians abandoned agriculture and switched back to hunting-gathering, because they had no useless insurance in the face of volatile climate.
This metaphor makes absolutely zero sense to me.

> Except that every company's point irl is to perform Veblen's strategical sabotage
I'm not accustomed with Veblen. What I meant to say is that profit making is the main point of any company's existence, and you don't necessarily make more profit by making better product. All those people who work on increasing company's profits contribute nothing to society. This is the ineffectiveness of capitalism.

Oh, by the way, you should remember that your distribution of the agriculture workers is misleading in a way, because USA currently buys its food from other countries. Workers who have produced this food should be added to the chart too. They are part of the economy, aren't they?

>>22689400
holy fuck take your meds

>>22689407
>service is also a commodity
How do you measure 1 abstract socially-necessary labour hour value of a Shakespeare or a whore?

>This metaphor makes absolutely zero sense to me.
No insurance (i.e. non-productive financial activity) -> no one bothers to actually to do the job. Too fucking risky.

>profit making is the main point of any company's existence
That's why robber barons would dismantle all the railroads to sell you their cars. That is, a dynamic system. And math deals only with static systems, i.e. you can't provide a mathematical model of a river changing its own riverbed.
Therefore, concerning the companies, you can't predict shit. Only basic behavioral ethos.

>>22689360
Holy shit you only need one manager you fucking unemployed idiot. The problem is that administrators start making forms for using the drill and then more admin to do data analysis on the forms for using the drill and making subsequent PowerPoint presentations about the use of the drill while doing Likert scale questionnaires about employee satisfaction of the paperwork for the drill and subsequent analysis of those questionnaires which leads to scheduling, meeting, and implementing pizza parties and the subsequent release forms for said pizza party leading to someone being allergic to pizza and all the HR forms that go along with the allergy complaints when contrasted with the waivers they signed before the pizza party, the company meeting about pizza safety that has to be scheduled, with it's own PowerPoint, and the administrators realizing they should just move the mine to Bolivia because it's cheaper there and there is no government regulation labor.


It's all a waste. It's all a privatized administrative bureaucratic state backed by the barrel of a gun.

>>22689383
Real life people aren't going to see it that way. If they didn't see the guy do work or don't know what he did they're going to get annoyed. Working in a field while some guy lays under a tree. Eventually some guy is going to wonder what he's doing. Why doesn't he help, what does he do. It doesn't matter if it cannot be measured, people still care about it. Why do people assume that everyone in C suite positions are working less than the workers at the bottom. If it cannot be measured then why does it matter? Why do people get annoyed if they see a manger go eat in their office while the rest of them have to toil away. Humans aren't perfect robots. In theory doesn't mean shit when in reality it pisses people off.

>>22689459
That anon wants to commodify and measure every aspect of the human condition, pay him no mind.

>>22689464
Who me? I don't. You're delusional if you think people aren't going to take issue with some guy laying around and appears to be not working. People don't like working hard to sustain other people who don't offer anything in return. You would just end up in the same capitalist scenario where workers hate that the people at the top of the company get to relax and do less. It's the same exact scenario and it has nothing to do with commodifying anything. It might work with friends or family, but it's not going to work when it's random people you don't know well. It's unavoidable, it's going to happen.

>>22689484
>You're delusional if you think people aren't going to take issue with some guy laying around and appears to be not working.
A priest?

>>22689431
> How do you measure 1 abstract socially-necessary labour hour value of a Shakespeare or a whore?
Why do I need to? You can't measure a value of a banana or a hammer either.
> No insurance (i.e. non-productive financial activity) -> no one bothers to actually to do the job. Too fucking risky.
Great, you've removed one puzzle piece and the system became wonky. And? What did you proof? This tells nothing about theoretical socialist society we are discussing here, it just tells us that the system is coherent and dependent on itself. But that's obvious. When I call those jobs useless I don't mean they do literally nothing. No, they do generate the profit after all. But what do we need it for in the post-capitalist world?

> you can't provide a mathematical model of a river changing its own riverbed
Why not? No, no, you pretty much can. I don't think you can really measure and predict companies, but the river is trivial.

>>22689490
>but the river is trivial.
"Nonetheless, for many complex systems the external constraints that apply depend on what the dynamical state is, so that constraint holonomicity fails, blocking the path to further re-construction of the dynamics. This would, it seems, be true for all globally constrained, functionally resilient (often called robust) systems that can adapt their process organisation to compensate for damage or other altered circumstances, as can living cells. Moreover, many systems where constraints are a function of state also do work on the constraints, physically altering them over time. Examples include (i) a river altering its own banks, an accumulative process where the current constraints (banks) are a function of the history of past flows (currents), (ii) intra-cellular biochemical reaction processes where molecular structures constraining some processes are the products of other processes and vice versa; and (iii) any self-organisation where the constraint formed becomes an external constraint for subsequent processes (Benard cell and iron bar formation, etc.). In all these systems constraint orthogonality fails. With this failure the most basic precondition for achieving the core analytic construction fails.

There is then no general analytical mathematical formalism available for dynamical behaviour. Moreover, most of these systems have proven recalcitrantly impenetrable to analysis and essentially each system has to be treated individually on its merits. There are stronger claims, e.g. that all chemical reactions are irreversible thermodynamic processes defying analytical dynamical characterisation [Prigogine, 2003], but those above suffice. It is among these that we find all systems exhibiting emergence and organised global constraints and many other of the characteristic features of complexity."

>>22689489
You're being ridiculous. The other people would be cool with that if they feel he provides value to them, thus contributing. It's an unavoidable situation. People constantly complain about useless managers, it's the same exact thing. People might not be revolting right now, but they obviously have problems with it or else you wouldn't see all these people complaining about it. Would they be okay if the pay pyramid was inverted at a company so those at the top made less, what if everyone made the same?

>>22689503
You've completely removed the human element from the equation.

>>22689503
>Nonetheless, for many complex systems the external constraints that apply depend on what the dynamical state is, so that constraint holonomicity fails, blocking the path to further re-construction of the dynamics. This would, it seems, be true for all globally

Word salad. Stopped reading there. ESL?

>>22688221
>elite classes take and abuse from the lower classes but its okay because its only so they take care of their own as it should be
>noooo lower classes cannot take from the elite classes to take care of their group, why are marxist so violent and vengeful
what the fuck do you mean

>>22687660
I believe it's cope because McCarthyism is slowly weakening and Marx is being discussed in some places.

>>22687880
We're postscarcity in some fields such as food, yet the system has not changed but rather creates shortages through destruction of property to keep having a semblance of sense. If only someone had foreseen this and written about it...

>>22688886
You're taking "exploitation" at a moral value, like some faggot. Exploitation is the amount of surplus you generate in proportion to the value you get to keep when you work. The more your boss makes from your work (relatively to what you get paid), the more exploited you are.
Regarding the autoexploitation, nobody cares. Yes, you can exploit yourself to save or give the surplus to someone else if you want to. It is definitely not the case for industrial capitalism which is what Marx is all about. Nodoby owns and runs an actual industrial factory by himself.

>>22688897
It was also the case of Allende's Chile. He refused to arm the workers and as soon as the army noticed they raided 20 something factories. When they decided no resistance would be met, they bombarded their equivalent of the white house to get to Allende. There's a cool documentary about it named "chile: la historia de un pueblo sin armas".

>>22689282
And it kinda makes sense. I'd argue for 4 hours but who cares. There are a lot of idle hands and productivity is skyrocketing constantly, we just work more for our bosses.

>>22689245
>reduced the 12-hour work day to a 8-hour one
LOL, so it was exactly the same as working in a capitalist factory? How does that prove your point

>>22685995
I know. is based.
>During Guevara's time in Algeria he was interviewed by Spanish poet Juan Goytisolo inside the Cuban embassy. During the interview Guevara noticed a book by openly gay Cuban writer Virgilio Piñera that was sitting on the table next to him. Wqhen he noticed it he threw the book against the wall and yelled "how dare you have in our embassy a book by this foul faggot?".

>>22689658
So its possible for everyone to work the same amount as now and also receive free social services? Sign me up!

>>22685779
whats disappointing is that people complaining here about Marxist ideas are so out of touch, their reasonings and arguments are superficial or outdated. I'm not here to pretend I'm a specialist, but these discussions are not even slightly relevant, you guys are /lit not /highschool, or is it the same thing?

>>22689676
What socialists don't understand is that it's not capitalism that's the problem. It's the NECESSITY FOR LABOUR that's the problem. It literally does not matter to the worker one bit whether the commie boss is shouting at him in the factory or the capitalist boss. In either case it is a degrading and humiliating situation which kills the soul. As for your social benefits, well, people were objectively worse off in the Soviet Union and China.

Why don't socialists just accept that this world is shit. Only automation will fix this. Until then we're fucked.

>>22689723
Okay but it'll come down to Capitalists who believe in exterminating everyone who isn't an elite, or exterminating elites if they don't redistribute wealth.

>>22689723
The Ussr and China were much less developed BEFORE they became communist, so comparing their level of consumption to the US on an absolute level is bad logic. If you look at how much quicker China has grown compared to the US (while also basically waging another cold war with them), you would have to declare China the winner as of now.

>>22689723
Also, work doesn’t need to be a terrible hell. If a nation is collectively working towards a goal, work can be fulfilling. If a nation is just a marketplace for jewish grifting, work will always be a chore done only to accrue more consumption goods.

>>22689723
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ARE YOU DENSE, RETARDED, OR JUST REFUSE TO AWKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT AUTOMATION IS A DREAM THAT DIED IN THE 70s ALONG WITH ANY OTHER SEMBLANCE OF REVOLUTION? YOUR FUCKING CAPITALIST PIGGIES REALIZED THEY COULD MOVE THINGS ELSEWHERE INSTEAD OF AUTOMATING. SO FUCKING EVERYTHING GOT MOVED ACROSS THE SEA. THERE IS NO AUTOMATION. ITS ABOUT JOB CREATION. ITS ABOUT KEEPING EVERYONE EMPLOYED AND BUSY. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO GIVE YOU FLYING CARS OR ROBOTS THAT DO THE LAUNDRY OR FUCKING ROBOTS THAT BUILD YOUR ADIDAS TENNIS SHOES. THIS ISNT GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE THE OINK OINK PIGGIES DECIDED TO INVEST IN SECURITY AND FUCKING SPYING ON YOU. WHO THE FUCK GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WARP DRIVES OR BULLET TRAIN INFRASTRUCTURE WHEN THEY CAN JUST TRACK YOUR SPENDING HABITS AND KNOW WHERE YOU ARE LOCATED AT ALL TIMES? WE ARE GOING TO BE FUCKED FOREVER. WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO INNOVATE OUR WAY OUT OF THIS. AND EVEN IF WE HAD THE TIME THE CAPITALIST PIGGIES WOULD JUST USE THE TIME TO MAKE MORE PROFITS. YOUR INNOVATIONS FROM BELL LABS WERE BECAUSE OF HIGH TAXES. CAPITALIST PIGS LOBBIED THOSE TAXES AWAY FOR STOCK BUY BACKS. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ITS LIKE YOU REFUSE TO AWKNOWLEDGE CAUSALITY OR LOOK AT ANYTHING WITH A CRITICAL EYE.

>>22685779
How are you not able to draw his brain further? He was a pro-soldier. An amerifat that just wanted to spread his seed.

>>22688025
Every time the Russians or Chinese did any government there were assassinations and dictatorship you dumb faggot. They never had liberalism or developed capitalism, which causes liberalism. The French had many more reasons to hate the king and aristocracy than poverty, and if you have a revolution, you have to be able to protect it. The only reason America didn’t have mass hangings after the revolution is they were a colony and thousands of miles away. It would take forever to explain why this stupid logic doesn’t work because you’re playing with blocks and history isn’t “good guys vs bad guys” or “freedom and dictatorship” like everything is a Marvel movie.w8vtwm

>>22688240
>in fact he finds value in his work which makes him negate the master
Hmmmmmmm, where have I heard that before? Almost sounds like Marx when he finds that LABOR (WORK) creates VALUE and not the BOSS (MASTER). Then they NEGATE (OVERTHROW) the MASTER.

>The master and slave were defined by who was less committed to their own life, and in a game of chicken
Everything you're saying is something I already know and Marx already knew and talked about.

>For Marx the slave is completely aware of their freedom, yet they yearn to actualize it REGARDLESS of
You're confusing two entirely different concepts and fail to think YOU thought of this before Marx? He talks about all of this. Either you know enough about Hegel but either haven't actually read/thought about Marx or you're just a midwit and will never learn. This is too painful to read any further.

>>22688725
No mine is. Here I go, save yourself nobody gives a shit, not a doomer

>>22689858
squeal rage piggy squeaaaaal
SU-EEEEE

shut the fuck up you ugly nerd.

You retards need to wake up. Modern China is the crowning of Marx's work. They raised 800M out of poverty, they oppose the woke west, they execute parasite landlords and bankers, they cured the country of opiate addiction and execute the druglords too. Higher life expectency. Lower obesity. Fewer incarcerated citizens. Fewer deaths of despair. Less obesity. I could go on and on and on. Marxism wins via China while the west gets cucked by financialist pedo scum.

Bless Papa Marx. Bless Papa Xi Xinping.

>>22691398
you're really dumb and dishonest.

>>22688214
>capitalism is when girls won’t sleep with me because no iPhone :(

>>22691398
>I could go on
Critical dearth of females

>>22685779
Just get rid of the Federal Reserve and all the world's problems will go away.

>>22691398
China is capitalist.

>>22692258
Yes, but at that point China the country IS the capitalist.

>>22685779
*class is the root of all evil

>>22691398
Based. This makes the westoids seethe.

>>22691398
>>22689807
I guess dictatorships work best with slavery, even more do if they fake their numbers.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all ok with any system, as long as you do the working and I do the bossing.

>>22691398

Everything about China is fake, fabricated by the Communists.

>>22686026
I’d much rather kikes like yourself kill themselves.

>>22692801
Most things you think you know about former and present socialist states is fake, fabricated by western capitalist states.

Is it wrong for me to think that Karl Marx is mostly only popular with most modern "philosophers" and gen z because of most political thought , especially in europe, just trying to be the opposite of hitler? Any counter thoughts?

>>22693334
Ironically many of Hitlers policies were socialist. They were just only to serve the benefit of his people in his country, which makes rabid equalitarian liberals seethe

>>22692819

Yes? My point still stands.

>>22685779
>What??
Whoever added manifesto to his thesis fucked him up pretty good. However, a hitler ally or was it Stalin, I don’t remember. Did they see perpetual war being solved within communism because nobody intuitively likes a scam.

>>22693585
Marx thinks that social contradictions will disappear in communism, so war among other things will no longer come into existence.

>>22688214
>forcing you to buy their products
You really need to find out what words mean before you start using them.
>noooo they literally embezzled $500 from my bank account and sent me an iPhone

>>22693709
>The guy that let 4 of his 7 kids starve to death has misconceptions about life
you don't say?

>>22694601
>4 of his 7 kids starve to death
What a stupid thing to a lie about. How did you become this pathetic?

Wasn't he born into wealth?

>>22685779
what a retarded reasoning. Man, the revolution was a proposal based on a fact: you cant change the spirit of a fucking tyrant with power so the people should try and take control of anything, it failed? yeah, failed but its more than what i´m sure you are proposing since you aquired you got your writing competence.

>>22693709
>when impossible conditions come into existence, impossible consequences will follow
Well, there's no arguing with that.

>>22693342
Hitler was unironically a collectivist. The label "national socialism" speaks for itself. It was a reaction against the international socialism of the ComIntern.
Communists aren't the opposite of Nazis, they're political cousins.

>>22692289
Good thing you haven't got any.

>>22688025
The 1918 German revolution was non violent

>>22685779
>money is the root of all evil
But that's not what he said in the book. Why can't you niggers read?

>>22693709
>Marx thinks that social contradictions will disappear in communism
Marx did not state that. He stated that economic contradictions will disappear from the society - but that doesn't prevent conflict from arising for other reasons, the ones less gay ones than "Rothschild needs more oil".

>>22685779
Nazism, fascism and communism all of them follow the herd mentality faggots

>>22685779
>>money is the root of all evil
That's from the bible, you retard. You must have gotten some papers mixed up on your desk

Thanks for the thread commie frens. A lot of concepts you brought up were quite interesting, and I’m curious to know more. Should I go straight to Capital, or is there a better entrance text?

Ps. But you gotta admit that a bunch of commies are just annoying faggots tho

>>22697338
Just go Marx, Lenin and Mao by no means everything they wrote). Then either read works from political praxis (writings of parties/movements) or theory (Marxist philosophers/political scientiests/economists).

>>22691398
Vanguard Communists are the only ones I respect desu. I can't take Western Communists seriously, they worship niggers over the white workers they need to recruit.