/lit/ - Literature

Limitless supply of clueless sophomore faggots.

There's a distinction between the true value of a thing and it's price.

Never read any marx but surley he dosent claim that the only factor for the value of a commodity should be the time it takes to produce it?

>>22675702
>the solution to all our problems it to purposely create the tragedy of the commons and give the power to regulate it to a bureaucratic class. Otherwise private companies will force you to buy iPhones you don't want.
>THAT'S THE MOST RETARDED SHIT I'VE EVER HEARD DIE DIE DIE

>>22675720
>true value
Subjective without reference to price.

>>22675754

>>22675780
thank you my laptop is a potato and it slows down whenever i try to edit images

>>22675701
>>>/pol/

>>22675701
The problem with Marx is that no one has actually read Das Kapital and the people who have are either rhetorically effete or totally domineering authoritarians who are all to easily seduced by the notion of absolute power

>>22675720
Yeah, this is probably the retarded thing Marx believed that lead him to write this bullshit

>>22676061
This is the correct take. Literally the time it would take to discuss the nuance of his observations is the same it would take to just read the first few chapters of capital.

>>22675701
Did Marx actually believe this? Because that is so fucking retarded.

>>22676339

>>22675701
As the apostate pinko Whitaker Chambers put it,
>“It [Communism] is not new. It is, in fact, man's second oldest faith. Its promise was whispered in the first days of the Creation under the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil: "Ye shall be as gods." It is the great alternative faith of mankind. Like all great faiths, its force derives from a simple vision. Other ages have had great visions. They have always been different versions of the same vision: the vision of God and man's relationship to God. The Communist vision is the vision of Man without God.
It is the vision of man's mind displacing God as the creative intelligence of the world. It is the vision of man's liberated mind, by the sole force of its rational intelligence, redirecting man's destiny and reorganizing man's life and the world. It is the vision of man, once more the central figure of the Creation, not because God made man in his image, but because man's mind makes him the most intelligent of the animals. Copernicus and his successors displaced man as the central fact of the universe by proving that the earth was not the central star of the universe. Communism restores man to his sovereignty by the simple method of denying God.”

Finding oneself at the ass end of millennia of natural selection without the consolation of the eternal and the good is quite the embarrassment. Why not rectify it with full bore nihilism gussied up in sweet nothings--

>>22676061
Read Cleaver's Reading Capital Politically and then use Capital to fuck your workplace up. I suggest pouring instant oats down the toilets.

>>22676380
>Did Marx actually believe this? Because that is so fucking retarded.
No. Marx uses the concept of socially necessary average-skilled labour power (ie: effort) which has to be realised ("sold") or produced for realisation ("ie: wages paid speculatively").

Marx's labour power concept of value is designed to reflect the production processes he observed, and to collapse in the face of political attack. Marx's price of labour power can be below the price of survival of a human being and yet still be the "socially necessary" price, for instance in the slave production of sugar.

>>22676529
>Marx is "prophetic" and anyone that doesn't accept this prophet is just not smart enough to grasp the incredible nuance behind the words.
When it takes 500 pages of huffing farts to define one simple factor in a complex system any hope of accounting for the entire system seems remote.
Marx doesn't seem to me to introduce even one useful concept. All his efforts make understanding the world more difficult and every time I see someone trying to defend him they talk like brainwashed religious fanatics.

>>22675701
It has been 175 or so years since the titular manifesto was published and in that time socialism has become accepted and implemented in the east and west. There aren't even viable political alternatives that garner enough support to implement in any western nation. You can hold out as long as you desire comrade.

>“In the doctrine of socialism there is hidden, rather badly, a ‘will to negate life’; the human beings or races that think up such a doctrine must be bungled. Indeed, I should wish that a few great experiments might prove that in a socialist society life negates itself, cuts off its own roots. The earth is large enough and man still sufficiently unexhausted; hence such a practical instruction and demonstration ad absurdum would not strike me as undesirable, even if it were gained and paid for with a tremendous expenditure of human lives.” [The Will to Power §125.]

>>22676620
imagine being so deluded as to think the west is 'socialist', the mind boggles

>>22676661
Taken directly from the manifesto: "These measures will of course be different in different countries.

Nevertheless in the most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c."

You can run down this list and look into the laws of virtually every western nation and see that they have indeed implemented and accepted socialism, and that includes Burgerland. The various right wings will argue and dicker around with % rates and claim they are combating Marxism to their respective orbiters (You) but none of them have the power to abolish it, and don't actually seem to be interested in doing so comrade.

>>22676682
Uhh one glance at this and several things do not fit into America. America has some socialist type policies but socialism it is not.

>>22676692
Well then tell me which parts of the list you don't understand and I will gladly explain it to you.

>>22676696
1 , 3 , 4 , 6 - 9

>>22675701
The best solution for these faggots is to come up with a philosophy so contrary that it causes them to completely sperg out.

>>22676710
You are correct in that some of these have not been realized in the absolute just yet, and I am correct in saying the legal framework has already been established and it is only a matter of time. On point 1, take burgerland, you have section 8 and various Supreme Court interpretations of the 14th amendment that uphold extreme uses of Eminent domain. On point 3, there are inheritance taxes in virtually all western nations, some are more extreme than others. Point 4 is a bit dated but still applicable, consider the cost involved to become a citizen of a western nation for an emigrant? The various payments that have to be made to get a bureaucratic approval to have equity in the eyes of the law vs a naturalized citizen? Point 6 is rather obvious, do private companies own the highways in your country? Look at how the state of the burgers seized the railroads. Even the internet is falling under state control at a fast pace. Point 9 is rather obvious, do you know any farmers that don't use machinery to conduct their craft? If so you are one of less than 1% of the world's population. Humans are inherently tribal so you can support your town's sports team and say you are different from some other town's citizen but burgers especially love to brag about how rule of law applies to all. Local municipalities will always have differing laws but the nation state supersedes them on virtually every level. As the political right wings of the west weaken these legal implements will grow in scope. What do you think so many of them are constantly lamenting about comrade?

Marx won't die because liberals don't care if they're wrong.
Wheat fields, coal mines, livestock, rice paddies cannot be maintained with wishful thinking, and thus Marxism causes total collapse of primary industry in every recorded case

>>22675744
Marx wrote some of the longest books ever written, which commies have not even read themselves. Many have not even read an abridged das kapital.

To say we're in Tldr territory is an understatement, but Marx basically defines value as the labour added to commodities. He acknowledges many seperate factors but doesn't consider them "value" for his purposes

>>22676661
Socialism isn't synonymous with Marxism. Europe, Australia, Canada are all socialist; but not Marxist

Augusto del Noce explains. Marx figured out how to turn economics into metaphysics, and make the foundations of his philosophy relativistic. He could assert anything he wanted, and prescribe anything he wanted.

>>22675701
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/media/marx/80_10_06.htm

>>22676963
Marxism isn't so much a doctrine.

It would also be undialectical if Marxism didn't die.

>All individual and all specific things have their births, development, and deaths. Every person must die, because he was born. Man must die, and Chang San [i.e., any Tom, Dick or Harry] being a man, Chang San must die. None can see Confucius who lived 2,000 years ago, because he had to die. Mankind is born, and therefore mankind must also die. The earth was born, and so the earth must also die. Nonetheless, when we say that mankind will die and the earth will die, it is different from what Christians say about the end of the world. When we talk about the death of mankind and the death of the earth, we mean that something more advanced than mankind will come to replace it, and this is a higher stage in the development of things. I saw that Marxism also has its birth, its development and its death. This may seem to be absurd. But since Marx said that all things which happen have their death, how can we say that this is not applicable to Marxism itself? To say that it won’t die is metaphysics. Naturally, the death of Marxism means that something higher than Marxism will come to replace it.

>free choking

>>22675701
?? Nobody thinks like this except a bunch of terminally online trannies. Marx is dead, D&D is more real than him and his theories

>>22676592
This
He's also boring as fuck. He's a woman complaining

>>22676620
Yes, national socialism and it works great
Nobody gives a shit about marxism and his retarded takes on socialism
Cry

>>22676963
>Europe, Australia, Canada are all capitalist/managerialist with pauperism
FTFY

>>22677966
You mean those fascist dogs who couldn't even plagiarize socialism properly? Yes anon it worked so great there are still NatSoc countries around today right? Can you tell me which ones are still around?

>>22675701
The CIA want state socialism alive and well as it can be managed, corrupted. Actual socialism isn’t statist. The deep traditional ways of freedom will never fully die. Ever.

>>22675701
"It is not my fault that Marxism is reality" che said some shit like that

>>22678227
Christians say the same thing. Reality is kind of fuzzy like that.
But even he desired the same general outcome as the Hussites or the hillbillies. Escape from bondage, even though he specifically just offered another kind of bondage

>>22675701
Bro real economics is fucking complicated. You ever try to wrap your head around Marginal Utility? Shit is whacked.

>>22678220
meds

>>22676682
not even 1/3rd of those apply to america, and those that do (like education) are more nationalistic than they are socialistic. go back to /pol/ when you can confused oligarchic international capitalism with socialism in peace

>>22676682
Measures to be taken by a hypothetical DotP in 1850's Germany.
>These measures will of course be different in different countries.

>>22678334
Which parts of the list do you fail to understand comrade, I will be happy to explain it to you as well.

>>22678227
Capitalism obviously works very well too.

>>22678442
Sorry, but I have better things to do. Maybe be more self-critical yourself and try looking at US polices from a liberal lense rather than a marxist one; you'll see the ones that do partly apply are more nationalistic & liberal (like education and progressive taxing (which doesn't resolve class)) than socialist and where they dont apply america goes full turbo corporate capitalism (like private banking/creditors being the entire spine of the economy, privatization of communication tech/internet, highways being built just to expand auto industry in the first place, nepo trust fund babies running amok still, etc etc)

>>22678528
Alright comrade, clearly you have no refutation of my point, there is nothing wrong with that, I wasn't expecting one from you.

>>22675720
There is, but i have a feeling he might have leaned toward the idea that spending a lot of time on something automatically makes it worth more. I would say we see this idea more now, where things that suck are overpriced. If it takes you a long time to make a chair and the chair sucks, it sucks. The object isn't inherently valuable because it took you a long time to make. If a guy made a chair that breaks immediately then it's a shitty chair. If he spent a total of 100 hours making it then i would say that's unfortunate. A good learning experience, but it doesn't mean the chair is useful. It was useful to him because he gained experience, but no one else is going to find a shitty chair useful, unless it filled some other usefulness.

>>22678220
Everyone is too fractured for that. It worked when we were small bands of people and clans. It doesn't work for an enormous nation.

>>22678541
You are a dogmatic faggot that can't even get your own scripture right. I am not your comrade, either.

>>22678541
>clearly you have no refutation of my point
>clearly points out multiple problems with your point
learn some humility and the ability of being wrong, retard

>>22678616
You are correct, you sound like my inferior at the moment.

>>22678624
So, which points on the list are wrong then?

>>22678634
>So, which points on the list are wrong then?
>please indulge me in an ad infinitum loop
fuck off

>>22678658
I will be more than happy to explain it to you. Clearly you do not have a point to make other than making ad hominems, the well known signature of those who cannot refute and must resort to insult.

>>22678667
I already pointed out multiple flaws in your retarded argument in >>22678528 and you responded to none of them. Saying America is socialist because of your crap check list from marx is the other side of the horse shoe from fox-republicans thinking biden is a socialist, its completely retarded when America is dominated by an international oligarchy whose power is built upon private property, corporate-monopolistic power, and imperialism. You are a faux communist and a retarded one at that.

>>22678680
You said you had better things to do than refute my point, and then proceeded to talk about nothing that refuted it. If you can figure something out then stop back in and post it.

>>22678691
I gave you a short response, in which you didn't respond to any of which. Which only reinforces my opening statement, in that I have wasted my time by starting this all off. Please knock it off with your.

>>22678305
>The CIA doesn't do stuff. shu'up

>>22678575
It worked when we had no highly organized slavers taking advantage of the very nature of freedom. This doesn't mean the notion, the dream, of freedom will ever die or never be achieved. The size of us isn't why we fail. The diversity of us and the divisive tactics of theirs

>>22678700
*faggotry

>>22675701
It’d be funnier if the guy choking him didn’t say anything

>>22678700
You are the one still posting banalities.

>>22675701
Why? Clearly you haven't exercised the sufficient number of objectively measured labor hours to kill it.

>>22678264
Nobody has ever asked him to believe that. Is it a coincidence that every atheist attack on Christianity starts with a strawman?

The only reason Marxism still exists is because society is shit

>>22678785
You do not understand Christianity and it's multiple excuses for its daftness and inconsistencies.

>>22678787
Essentially, yes. Though Marx is kept going because it is a manageable lie that prevents actual constructive improvements

>>22676682
If you're retarded enough to think that the ways in which some of those apply to countries like Australia proves that
>the west has fallen (tm)
kys

>>22678928
Australia doesn't tax at the time of death, they do tax the beneficiaries on the income/capital gain side. A nominal difference that still accomplishes the same end goal. I suppose you could classify it as strictly income tax though.

>>22677977
>oh yeah? well my ideology was so scared of your ideology merely existing that my ideology worked with its supposed mortal enemies to destroy your ideology, and we were pretty close to losing!
What a strange ideology.

>>22679028
The post I was replying to made the claim NatSoc worked better with no evidence to support the claim. You are more than welcome to take up the mantle comrade, show me the NatSoc countries doing better. The actual NatSoc were liquidated like the fascist dogs they were. The aspiring Aryan fairy larpers here struggle to make coherent posts.

>>22679069
>NatSoc
>fascist

Oof.

>>22679091
So which NatSoc countries are doing better then?

>>22676548
>Stirner
based as fuck. Egoism, individualism, rationalism, atheism, pragmatism and utilitarianism for the win.
Also the existence known as "God" does not exist, because if he did, then fuck him.

>>22678737
oh wow another response in which you didnt deal with anything i said earlier. I am glad i ignored this thread for a bit, because I got actual work done in the meantime. now I am going to close my laptop, and call it a night. when dawn arises tomorrow, you will still be a faggot

>>22679509
Thanks for posting about your meaningless life still entirely unable to refute my point, thus confirming you are the one still posting about banalities and making my point over again.

>>22676682
Wow I wonder how applying this could possibly go wrong

>>22679526
kys commie faggot

>>22679096
It provably worked extremely well, being defeated in a war is not a measure of the success of the ideology. It's a great shame that we didn't get to see what it would've looked like post war. Russian bolshevism had to adapt nationalism just to put food on the table

>>22680082
Nowhere else to go comrade, you can hold out for as long as you want.

>>22680370
Sounds like you still can't refute my point little seethelet. Cope moar and dilate tranny.

>>22680389
It didn't, especially by the numbers, they were more efficient than Weimar but that doesn't require any effort. The great socialist blocs of east and west liquidated them like the dirty dogs they were and Incel Aryan fairy larpers still idolize them.

>>22675701
>>22675702

Thank me later.

>>22675701
>value
>objective
lol
lmao even

>>22675701
>digs out the hole
>digs up the same hole
LOOK MOM, I CREATED VALUE

>>22676958
Dwarf Fortress functions like this. Raw materials exist, and can be crafted, and any labor done on them increases their value. Skilled laborers multiply the value greatly by turning items into masterworks if you are lucky. Items can be further enhanced by encrusting them with gems, etc where multipler of value also depends on the craftsdwarfship of the gem setting dwarf and the gemcutters, etc.