/lit/ - Literature

>>22618270
OP's mom will die in her sleep tonight.

>>22618270
Being sodomized>>>>> any sex

>>22618290

I am owed bussy.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato.

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

Posting for Li He
Before I lost my mind last year and destroyed my life and all my relationships (it was deserved and I still haven't done proper penance) I was going to translate his complete works. Should I get back to it or just keep working long boring retail days and immediately crashing as a punishment lol
I just sat down in a McDonald's seat that someone peed in btw

>>22618370
Has his work not been translated to English? Yeah, definitely, you should go for it! Though personally I think it sucks how many English translations of Chinese poetry make no attempt to observe the form of the original (meter or rhyme). Poetry is for the ear, not just the eye.

>>22618374
It has but dryly and academically. To be fair, I don't know how I'd translate much of it
Also from the short exchange in the last thread (wasn't involved and didn't post) I suspect I met some of you in real life before. If so/if you ever met a visibly disturbed person who knew Greek and Chinese and had auditory halluvinations I'm sorry and I hope you're okay.

>>22618406
I've thought about possible ways to render 平仄 in English. One is that each 平 syllable corresponds to a trochee and each 仄 syllable corresponds to an iamb or vice versa. Another is that they correspond to long and short vowels in stressed syllables. ('Long' and 'short' meaning FLEECE, GOOSE, FACE etc and KIT, FOOT, STRUT etc respectively.)

>>22618423
Oh, I remember there was also one person who suggested rendering 平 as syllables ending with a vowel or a voiced consonant and 仄 as syllables ending with a voiceless consonant.

Do you know Mandarin? Did you learn it before or after Classical?

>>22618433
Not the Li He person, the person responding to him, but I know some Mandarin, mostly by exposure. I believe I started on Classical Chinese first; if I recall I actually started out learning it through the Japanese tradition but I ended up switching to Mandarin pronunciation. I'm thinking about switching to another, more conservative pronunciation (that keeps more distinctions, not to mention makes old poetry rhyme and scan better) but I'd be compromising on availability of audio materials.

>>22618457
Best resources for CC reconstructed pronunciation? I'm not really anywhere near getting into it yet but it seems like info would be relatively difficult to find so if you've found good stuff I'd love to be able to take note of it in case I end up wanting to pursue it at some point (I am into language learning almost exclusively for the sake of poetry so obviously I care a lot about pronunciation/phonology).

>>22618433
Li He schizo here. Japanese is a native but not very advanced language; I didn't do much education in it. It was learning Mandarin that ironically made me much more literate in it. I did Classical Chinese in unison which for a time made me sound very bad in Mando.

>>22619205
De Gruyter's handbook is alright.
Keep in mind that Chinese poetry is still a living tradition. It's reasonable to use modern phonetics not just because they largely preserve rhyme, but because re-engagement with and contemporization of historical texts is a well-maintained tradition in China that has never once been fully broken. The Chinese own their tradition in a way that the Modern Greeks and Latins can only dream of.

>>22619224
Good, point, although the little I've seen about reconstructed pronunciation makes it seem like it was fairly different - but then after thinking about it for a minute I'm realizing Middle Chinese is the more relevant phonological period for poetry anyway, and there appears to be a specific book on that from Pulleyblank so I'll check that out in addition to the handbook, thank you for the recommendation though. I agree that the continuity of the tradition is really remarkable and almost unfathomable from a European perspective.

>>22619307
good point*, not "good, point", lol

protip: half of getting ahead of the others is simply staying in the game. though it helps when most people (here language learners) are retarded

Thinking about trying to get a job as a Latin teacher after school. Anyone (American) here currently one/have any experience? What's it like?

Is it true that accents in attic greek indicated musical pitch? Is using them as stress markers incorrect?

>>22619433
yes but be careful, it's easy to sound retarded trying to do them accurately. you might sound like that one guy reading the Apology posted here a while ago

>>22618270
How do the words for breasts compare between different classical languages?

>>22619426
once I'm done with grad school that (among other things) is in my immediate plans. so I don't really have much info on it now, but one of my past professors, who is the head of the classics department at the respective university, has said that the best jobs for Latin are on the east coast.

>>22619442
This language is really scary now. All sorts of accent rules and breath marks and oh my god.
I will press on, however.

>>22619606
>This language is really scary now
most people who study ancient Greek don't adhere to pitch accent and don't expect others too. you can learn about it if you want, but even when you're reading Homer or something no one, unless they're pretentious, would honestly be upset with you using stress accent. most people don't even know the basics of pitch accent for ancient Greek. you really shouldn't make it out to be some big monster. breathing marks and different accents (accute, grave) are important, but well within the first month of learning they should be easily recognizable.

Are there any good youtube channels/tv shows that are entirely in Latin? I'm doing well in my readings but some immersion learning would be really nice.

>>22619632
>accute
*acute

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22618370
You must have a purpose, anon. That's the only thing that matters in life. Translating some ancient gook's books sounds like more of a purpose than working some faggot ass retail job

*fucks your shit up*

>>22619635
You probably already know it, but Luke Ranieri makes a ton of Latin content and he’s a completely fluent speaker. His English channel is Polymathy, and his Latin/Greek channel is ScorpioMartianus. He’s a little cringe sometimes, but he’s a really good resource.

>>22619606
Don’t sweat it, man. Honestly. The accents are almost never needed to understand a word. Attic writers didn’t even use them. If you look at an ancient manuscript, they are almost always just capital letters with no breathing marks, no accents, etc. There are a few basic rules for accentuation (the rule of continuation, the fact that verb accents are recessive, etc.), and anything beyond those gets into minutiae. Don’t ignore them totally, but don’t worry about them.

>>22619632
it's kinda sad though that no one even in college classes teaches it that way. I'm feeling now that I should try to implement using it, partly because I have no proper memory of where the accents should go.

>>22620109
>it's kinda sad though that no one even in college classes teaches it that way
I can understand where you're coming from, but practically it makes sense. students struggle with compounds, word order, novel grammar constructions, etc. as it is - a peculiar/unfamiliar phonetic dimension is just going to compound that difficulty.
>I'm feeling now that I should try to implement using it, partly because I have no proper memory of where the accents should go
in what context do you think you will need to know where the accent is? if we're talking about texts (as opposed to inscriptions, say), modern texts show where the accent is. so regardless of whether you're reading prose or poetry, you will see where the accent is and which sort of accent (grave, acute, circumflex). and if you want to study where the accent is and which accent is there, you can just use flashcards or something: it's not like you can't memorize where the accent goes with stress accent.

>>22619805
I recognize this letter from the Codex Seraphinianus.

Wait what's the difference between the different kinds of sigma?

>>22620248
the one is based while the other is cringe

>>22620161
I agree skipping it definitely made things easier, and that it's really not important, but I still want to struggle with it. Only problem is that as an anglophone I am a little hopeless on this front.

>>22620301
>Only problem is that as an anglophone I am a little hopeless on this front.
I don't know all the resources available for ancient Greek pitch accent, but I imagine there are some decent ones if you ask around and/or look. I studied Japanese for a little while and delved lightly into pitch accent and it gradually became something I could perceive and emulate. I don't care for that bald Luke dude but I imagine he would have something on it - whether that's his own resources or others to read and/or listen to.

>>22620356
>resources available for ancient Greek pitch accent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Fj8gdjsNs

sleep tight Plato

>>22620370

>>22620388
>ranieri provides free and high quality resources for ancient greek
>causes seethe for some reason
you are a pathetic loser

>>22620392
salve, Luca!

>>22620401
You think I'm Mr. Ranieri? Bro, I literally just linked a video that is meant for his patreon supporters.

>>22620405
1. lurk more
2. if I'm a pathetic loser, pay my posts no mind

>>22620416
>lurk more
too busy actually learning latin instead of seething at Luke

>>22620421
>still responding
not busy enough, it would seem. again, if you like Luke and think my opinions are worthless, then you shouldn't care what some loser has to say about him. just do your own thing.

>>22620370
shit I didn't realize that he did a video on this

>>22619838
I didn't know about his second channel since I watch his main channel so infrequently, thanks anon! Even just listening to some of these vids as I do chores is already super helpful.

>>22620392
>free resources
You mean 'pay-walled copyrighted content that he doesn't even have the rights to' on Patreon. Recording audiobooks for something still in copyright is enough to get your YouTube deleted permanently. And if you monetize it on Patreon, you are basically begging for a lawsuit.

>>22619205
https://edoc.uchicago.edu/edoc2013/digitaledoc_index.php has a wide variety of reconstructions, including OC, MC, Baxter, Li, etc
https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en has one or two basic reconstructions

>>22621032
> he doesn't even have the rights to
How would you know? Hackett is super aggressive with their takedowns, so he obviously has some deal worked out.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

>>22619205
Middle Chinese is one thing, but phonetic values for Old Chinese are a lot less certain than they are for Latin or Ancient Greek. That said, for studying a Tang-era poet like Li He Middle Chinese makes more sense anyway as pointed out above. I have a friend who reads Classical Chinese (in general) in Middle Chinese pronunciation.
>>22619224
That's true, but I think there is something to be said for actually being able to hear the 平仄 and not have it be something purely abstract. (Yes, there are modern varieties in which you can reliably derive 平仄 from their modern pronunciations, but that's not the same as having the same auditory effect.)

>>22619433
Depends on what stage of the language you're trying to pronounce. It turned into stress some time in the Koine period.
>>22620248
One is written at the ends of words and the other is written elsewhere.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

Anyone here use Beginning with New Testament Greek by Merkle and Plummer? I've seen that it is fairly basic but can get you reading the NT quickly, which is my goal after finally getting comfortable with reading Latin. If not, what's a good beginner resource to use just to get reading the NT?

For words like περιοδος, do I pronounce it periodos or perihodos?

>>22623163
>starting with Biblical Greek instead of Attic
That's like learning English to read youtube comments by Indians instead of Shakespeare

>>22623291
I think periodos, since Romans didn't transcribe those words with an H.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato.

>he doesnt write latin in roman cursive
sad!

>>22623298
if I can read koine then would I be able to read attic?

OP, please add to the FAQ:
>If I can read koine then would I be able to read attic, or vice-versa?
Koine and Attic are varieties of the same language. There are significant differences in vocabulary, grammar, and usage, and none is so significant as fully to break the chain of intelligibility. As texts are the only reason to learn a classical language, you will be reading texts in whatever variety you choose with a dictionary by your side long before you are "fluent," if indeed you ever become fluent, if indeed that is a reasonable goal. Reading texts in the other variety should involve some perceptible and fully surmountable level of difficulty.

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22620370
https://youtu.be/u4nx6A6tVos

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22623966
What's funny is on my end of Greek study where I'm decently familiar with the language switching between the two would only cause confusion if I were looking too closely and expected an optative in Koine or something because of secondary sequence, which I would probably not even notice on a normal reading.

finally started learning ancient greek today. feelin pretty motivated and excited. starting with the Reading Greek series.

how was your experience with Reading Greek, anon? and how is your greek today?

>>22623966
ok

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

I wonder what ancient Greek femboys were actually like. I wish I could go back in time and meet them.

>>22624141
pedophile

I humbly ask that we stop discussing "femboys" and other similar inanities. Fetishes aren't relevant to classical languages, and I've seen too many serious generals get invaded by porn addicts and devolve into constant shitposting to know what this leads to.

>>22624161
seconded. anyone who disagrees can lick my arse.

>>22624161
this
or if you want to discuss pederastic sex, do it in greek or latin
now that might be interesting

>>22624169
>Apuleius
>apu

>>22624161
This, if you want to be a homo, be one, but this particular variety of crypto-faggotry which hides itself behinds words like femboy, catboy etc. is very annoying and doesn't belong here.

>>22624396
i'd go as far as saying that fetish discussion of any kind isn't welcome here
there are enough coombrained generals on this website

>>22618301
good night plato

>>22624414
i mean sleep tight plato shit

>>22624414
NGMI

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

>>22624470

>>22621293
They are 100% aware of his YT 'audiobooks' and don't care because it increased sales like crazy. I was specifically referring to his paywalled content. It's like the difference between uploading a song on your YouTube channel vs selling it on Bandcamp. Once you start charging people for access, these companies stop being so forgiving and are less likely to look the other way. I don't think Hackett is aware of the Patreon recordings.

>>22624616
I despise baldie so will be sending an email to Hackett shortly. I recommend others do the same.

>>22624739
Cur eum oderis?

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

>>22624739
συ εἶ ἰσοθεος

asked a question some time ago why there were certain Greek adjectives by themselves which express manner (e.g. ταύτῃ, κοινῇ, ᾗ). I wondered whether there was an implied ὁδῷ that fell out of use, but couldn't find anything and no one else seemed to know definitively. I happened to look it up in Smyth again after I saw another instance of it in a while and it does indeed say there's an implied ὁδῷ. not sure if anyone cares, but I hate not knowing the 'why' to things and it's satisfying to finally get confirmation. again, if anyone cares, I found it in 1527c of Smyth.

>>22618301
sleep tight lato

>>22623966
>As texts are the only reason to learn a classical language
What about writing in it?

>>22624396
How's it crypto-? If a poster is male and says they like [anything]boys that's pretty obviously gay.

>>22624739
You sent a letter to the translator from the 1920s?

>>22618301
I hope you experience nightmares, Plato.

>>22626974
κριγγε

>Tityre, tu patulae recubans sub tegmine fagi
Rome was so gay even their trees were fags

I recognize this image and I feel ashamed

>>22627481
solus non es, Anone

i wonder where the "antiquity was gay" thing came from.
for starters, sodomy would be a very disgusting affair with all the shit.

>>22626461
Because the people in question would probably reply that they're not gay, if you were to ask them.

>>22627697
>he doesn’t know about the thighs
I’m pretty sure I even saw an explicit reference to this in Solon the other day. Obviously Anacreon was down for boys as well, as was his patron/romantic rival Polycrates. Harmodius and Aristogeion killed Hipparchus over a gay feud. Hadrian was painfully gay. Plus Sappho of course. Pelops was canonically a lover of Poseidon, Apollo was in love with a youth as well. You don’t need to get into the ambiguous cases (that get discussed merely because they are more famous, see Achilles/Patroclus and Ganymede) to make this point. Even the Florence of Dante’s pre-Renaissance time was full of thinly veiled homosex, idk how anyone remotely familiar with history could paint it as some totally new thing.

>>22627697
>i wonder where the "antiquity was gay" thing came from.
Anglo philhellenic delusions, Oscar Wilde's Greek love and Kenneth Dover's Greek Homosexuality. Nowadays, people are more careful with the labeling because the word homosexuality betrays an inherent Christian worldview and the issue still lies in the fact that the evidence for same-sex relationships is very shaky outside of aristocratic upper echelon circles of Athens and certain mythos which the other poster has mentioned. (inb4 Sacred Band and Sparta).

what does 'c.' mean in the following?
>to be an avenger, exact or seek to exact vengeance for, avenge, τινι Democr. 261, Hdt. 1.103, 8.144, E. Hec. 749, Pl. Smp. 180a, etc.: abs., Hdt. 1.4: c. dat. et gen....
this is from the LSJ definition of τιμωρέω. I'm reading Herodotus and trying to make sense of the following:
>τὸ δὲ ἁρπασθεισέων σπουδήν ποήσασθαι τιμωρέειν ἀνοήτων
I am pretty sure the "νομίζειν ἔργον εἶναι" in the previous line is implied here too, so my sense of the sentence is something like:
>"But on the other hand [the Greeks] thought they should make haste to exact vengance for the foolish/unintelligent women (that have been) kidnapped"
so the genitive phrase I'm interpreting as being the object of τιμωρέειν, which appears to be backed up by its definition on LSJ, but I'm not entirely sure what the 'c.' means.

>>22628424
Cum
c. dat. et gen. = cum dativo et genitivo

>>22628509
I see. that makes sense, especially considering the 'et'. gratias tibi ago.

would y'all say "salarior, salariari" etc... would be a good neo-latin verb form for the concept of "working" in the modern age? kinda like ancient Greek μισθαρνέω

>>22629427
mereo already has that meaning
if you wanna translate waging, I suggest extending the existing verb stipendior to non-soldiers
I am wary of neologisms in general

>>22628370
Well Anacreon was on Samos and obviously Sappho was on Lesbos lol. The military examples you mention are also legit according to antique authors. True that a lot of it seems to come from Athens but that’s true of Classical-era culture in general, and of course it’s not the case with the Pelops myth either. I’m not talking about modern “homosexuality” here, I’m well aware of that distinction, I just mean homosexual behavior. Really I don’t know that homosexuality-as-identity is even a Christian thing, they were just opposed to the act, although I suppose its being made a serious crime probably ended up contributing to people forming identities around it.

'nother Herodotus question, about the following:
>τὸν δὲ οἶδα αὐτὸς πρῶτον ὑπάρξαντα ἀδίκων ἔργων ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας, τοῦτον σημήνας προβήσομαι ἐς τὸ πρόσω τοῦ λόγου, ὁμοίως σμικρὰ καὶ μεγάλα ἄστεα ανθρώπων ἐπεξιών.
the word order is a little odd from a normal relative with its antecedent, but I believe it's something like this:
>but which (thing) I myself know, after first making a beginning of the unjust deeds against the Greeks, after I point out this thing, I will advance to the further part of my exposition, going over both minor and major cities of man in a like manner."
so my sense is that the ὑπάρξαντα is in apposition to τὸν, which is here a relative; whose antecedent (though it follows it) is τοῦτον. I just don't know why they're masculine as opposed to neuter.

>>22629910
eh, my reading is that τὸν refers to someone ὑπάρξαντα ἀδίκων ἔργων ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας, τοῦτον refers back to this person as object of σημήνας, and the weird order I think is kind of the consequence of the preceding μὲν phrase, whose following δὲ is the one between τὸν and οἶδα αὐτὸς
the preceding ἐγὼ δὲ περὶ μὲν τούτων οὐκ ἔρχομαι ἐρέων ὡς οὕτω ἢ ἄλλως κως ταῦτα ἐγένετο is setting up a contrast with μὲν, i.e I will NOT start with the things that may be this or that, BUT(δὲ) the one fella who began unjust deeds against the greeks whom I know personally, (from) him shall I.....

>>22630033
yeah the only other thing that made sense was that it referred to an unnamed person. I have a copy of Steadman, which is sometimes wrong, and I was focusing too much on its grammar explanation. as far as the word order goes though, while I could be wrong, I'm not sure that it's influenced by the contrastive μὲν...δέ in the passage. Herodotus just as easily could have put the antecedent first (τοῦτον) and then supplied the δὲ right after with the participle that takes it (σημήνας), and then the relative clause. I feel like it's just a stylistic choice, i.e. he just naturally writes like that sometimes. maybe I'm wrong though.

>>22627697
>>22628341
>>22628370
>>22629774

>>22618301
Sleep tight Plato

>>22630091
n.b I considered the option more because of the contrast to be made with οἶδα i.e οὐκ οὕτω ἢ ἄλλως κως ταῦτα ἐγένετο VS οἶδα, hence the precedence given to the clause remarking how it's what HE personally can testify/knows for a fact

>>22630171
>this passage is probably satire
lmfao

>>22630324
I see. that's actually pretty reasonable.

>>22630171
Thank you for correcting the record, sir.

任何人学文言吗?我要开始但我不知道用什么资料适合我的性格。也许就是不可能舒服的学习因为我更喜欢在学语言一边看字幕一边听声音口音等等。我的经常办法不太有用为了学文言因为文言大部分是写字的。也许那本文言书不太有意思,让我没兴趣,没问题,我就继续只学中文

>>22632264
Nobody voices it except the most autistic ones for aesthetic performances.

>>22618270
God it sucks you're not allowed to perv on young boys anymore. Give it a few more centuries, it'll be back.

>tfw no delicatus

Anyone got resources to compliment the integrated chines' course? My uni instructor is an old shangai man who is hard to understand and is a bit all over the place, lacking structure in his method. I'm also a high functioning autist who had a language delay growing up so speaking it is quite hard and nerve racking. Anything to smooth the process through additional self-study is welcomed.

>>22632264
1. Your Chinese still sounds like English directly translated. It's as hard to read and ugly as English with Chinese grammar. Consider taking actual classes, because there are things you will not pick up teaching yourself.
2. Spoken Classical Chinese is not a thing outside of set phrases. There exist plenty of 導讀 lectures recorded online. Those are, as the name would suggest, usually just guided readings of CC texts supplemented with a modern language. If you don't want to read a lot, and if you aren't interested in learning by reading, then skip the endeavor: it isn't for you. 多背成語 without worrying about the meanings too much, like the stupid kids do in China.
3. See the FAQ. All the necessary textbook recommendations are there. And switch to traditional characters this instant.

>>22632943
That is not a classical language. Go ask /int/.

>>22632989
it has both classical and simplified versions of chinese, and this thread is discussions classical a fair bit

>>22618301
Sleep tight Plato

newbie with greek here. been working diligently, memorising vocab, yet i just can't get the spelling of words to stick. i can sound them out in my head, make a sentence, but i can't spell them out, and i usually write them out poorly, accents are a whole other matter. any tips for putting the sounds to letters. i am using JACT btw

>>22633565
My general advice is to just keep reading. Maybe you'll need to see a word once before it sticks or maybe 20 times, but it will stick eventually.
Most of the time you don't need to memorize non rough breathing accents so don't worry too much about them, only in super rare cases like βίος vs βιός do they matter.
A Greek professor gave advice to record a list of vocabulary (specifically for Homeric Vocabularies but you could do any list) where you read the Greek out, getting long vs short and accents right, then wait a few seconds and read the English paraphrase quietly. That might help more than i.e Anki for the spelling of words. Make sure you're reading your text out and once you get to real books, listen to audiobooks too, either pre-recorded or make one yourself. Don't underestimate audio. You'll engrain vocab and pick up the accents this way if the recording is good.
Also, try declining verbs, ie turning a present that you have memorized into aorist, past, future etc. in sentences you write. That way you'll get both the base form and you'll see it with augments. That won't help for say, φερω, but for most verbs it will help.

Just picked up a OCT Thucydides and it has "Becky Newman 1971" on the first page. Flipped through and she has extensive notes all the way up to the end of the book. Becky could get through Thucydides, why can't you?

>>22633004
I will be frank: you sound lost. Traditional Chinese is a writing system; Classical Chinese is a different language altogether. You would know this already if you were obsessed enough to learn Chinese, as one doesn't learn Chinese without obsession. On top of this, judging from the quality of your writing, you are clearly either ESL and trying to learn from an English-medium textbook (and a very bad one at that), or more linguistically impaired than you even suggested. In either case, I would advise you to ask yourself why you are learning Chinese at all. If it isn't absolutely critical to your course of study, I would advise you to consider dropping the class. If it is your course of study, I would advise you to reconsider it if you care this little and it gives you this much distress. I am not trying to be mean: Chinese is hard, and I am speaking honestly about what I see here in hopes that it either refocuses your goals or saves you a lot of effort and pain.

>>22633750
thank you very much, i've been thinking of writing out all my vocab, it seems more effective, especially when i am expected to actively recall words for my course. i will make this language work so help me god

>>22633861
That's the spirit. NTA, but I'll add that Assimil has an excellent set of audio tapes for this language. The book is in French, but you can use the audio regardless.

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

Just bought Wheelock's Latin, big fat motherfucker of a textbook, from a used entertainment store. I bought it for $12.50 in trade credit, that credit having been acquired in the same visit from a box of books I got for free at a yard sale earlier in the day.

Fucking Wheelock's Latin for $0 spent.
Very happy today. Not using it until I've finished Greek, which, how do you know you've finished Greek? At least I have it.

Any good Ancient/Biblical Greek YouTube channels? I'm a newb and don't even know 20 words but even I can recognize that half of those people's accent is terrible. They speak with anglo accent like gringos

>>22635925
The guy from the channel Podium-Arts is the only person I have heard reciting Ancient Greek who doesn't sound absolutely retarded.

this is a treasure https://imperium.ahlfeldt.se/

I wish I could have a Classics book club
I just want to talk about Latin and Greek texts withy people irl

>>22635925
Librivox has some, they're of really mixed quality. I've found the guy who records the Anabasis is pretty good. And you can find the Koine NT recorded but it's with modern pronunciation.

>>22635943
Convinced we should just make people listen to actual Greeks for hours before they try to get their pronunciation right.

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22631848
Ma'am actually, but no problem.

>>22632264
Why did you write this in Mandarin? I haven't heard anyone write Latin-related questions in Italian.
>>22632917
Chanting has been a pretty important part of Classical Chinese education historically.

>>22636211
If you're going for modern pronunciation that's one thing, but hearing modern-day Greeks talk won't help that much with ancient pronunciation.

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22618301
Sleep tight Plato

>>22637005
He's just a seething Greek, pay him no mind. It's like a London gang member posting about how English learners who want to recite Shakespeare should start by listening to grime rappers. Not sure how modern Greeks can bear to show their faces in these discussions, must be huffing lethal amounts of copium.

>>22636994
Based, I wonder if the Greeks had a fujoshi tradition alongside the gay one.

>>22637171
I'd genuinely like to hear him explain how the evidence for Ancient Greek pronunciation is compatible with it having been the same as today.

>>22637183
He posts every thread saying that Ancient Greek pronunciation sounds like "autistic yodeling" due to the pitch accent. It's safe to assume he is entirely ignorant of the phonology of the current second-most spoken language in the world, or of Japanese, or of Swedish, or even of the language of his fellow Balkan peasants.

>>22637232
I feel like he has at least a little bit of a point in that a lot of people who aren't fluent in Ancient Greek try to pronounce the pitch accent and end up exaggerating it and sounding silly and not at all natural.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

Are these "seething modern Greek peasants" in the room with us right now?

HOti men humeEIis oOo Andres At(spitting trying to get the aspiration in there)eenaAIioi pepOntate hupo toOon emoOon kateegOroon, ouk oiIida

>>22637241
Undoubtedly true. But how would listening to hours of a non-pitch-accented language have any bearing at all upon the proper pronunciation of pitch accents? Listening to the Swedish chef would be more relevant. And to be fair, when you say "people who aren't fluent in Ancient Greek" - usually the sort of difference you're talking about is something that only really manifests in the massive gulf between a native, everyday speaker and someone consciously learning a language. I'm not sure it can be meaningfully applied to a dead language.

Also I shouldn't have compared modern Greeks to Balkans, that was unfair. Balkans actually had a living rhapsodic tradition up until a few generations ago, their culture is infinitely superior.

>>22637456
>usually the sort of difference you're talking about is something that only really manifests in the massive gulf between a native, everyday speaker and someone consciously learning a language. I'm not sure it can be meaningfully applied to a dead language.
Sure, I don't know that there are more than a handful of living people who are actually fluent in Ancient Greek.

>>22637462
What I was getting at is that even the level of "fluency" is probably different from "native" when it comes to these aspects of a language. Learning something unconsciously via immersion as a child, from people who have done the same going back for generations, is fundamentally different from learning a language with an unfamiliar accentual schema as an adolescent/adult, from someone who also learned it in an artificial academic setting. A Japanese person who's never looked at a Greek letter in their life would probably be an order of magnitude more comfortable with the pitch accent than the leading Anglophone scholar of ancient Greek would be, and both of them would be infinitely better acquainted with it than Konstantinos Papadopoulos the hotel valet from Thessaloniki.

>>22637456
Some of the bards still live, at least as of the 90s. I'm not sure if there are enough illiterate people in Bosnia today for it to still keep going, but there may be some old singers of tales.

>>22637512

but what about Mama and Papa Momanpopadopolis, who run a mom and pop gift shop atop the acropolis?

Why is Old English grammar so cavemany? It's like "he she rock beat no sad him"

>>22637851
That's awesome, I was only aware of it through Parry and Lord's research but it's very encouraging to think that someone who has some of that knowledge might still be out there. The machine will swallow it all up eventually but it's worth trying to hold on as long as one can.

>>22637899
give a real example. not saying you're wrong, as I don't know Old English, just curious.

>>22637907
Sometimes it has modern English to it

>>22637899
>>22637926
It only looks "grug" in the word for word translation. This will happen in all languages untill you learn to think in the language you are learning.

Does anyone know any good purist/kathareousa books that are good for ancient Greek learners? Seems like this is a major untapped resource given how many modern Greek writers there are who deliberately tried to imitate Attic

>>22637899
>>22637926
It's not "grug" you're just used to thinking in a SVO non-inflected language

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22637512
Average non-retarded Greeks can easy read Attic or Koine after a few months of grammar study and can read fluently Thucydides after a year or two. Meanwhile you barely know how to say something like "the flower is red" after studying for 12 years and sound like a crying baby whenever you try to get your "pitch accents" right. but please tell us about how much u know.

>>22638029
BTW you realize Greeks didn't ever have a pitch accent. The first manuscripts with pitch accents only were in Egypt, ie they were for ancient Egyptians who learned Greek but had pitch accent in their language. The words were said just as they are now by Homer and Plato.

>>22638082
>we wuz

>>22638082
>The words were said just as they are now by Homer and Plato.
Then how do you explain length-based meter having been a thing if the 'long' and 'short' vowels were never actually pronounced as such? How do you explain why they came up with six different ways to spell /i/ and then consistently spelled some words with one and other words with another? How do you explain why the Romans transliterated φ as PH when they already had F? How do you explain the explicit descriptions of pronunciation from ancient authors?

>>22638159
Long syllables is a POETIC DEVICE and that other stuff. Do you think ppl in the 1500s talked exactly like how Shakespeare wrote? Cuz that's your logic for Greek.

>>22638192
So why did they invent two separate letters omicron and omega for the exact same sound and consistently spell some words with omicron and some with omega? Why did they compose poetry, in an era even before writing, that used contrastively these sounds that were never pronounced differently?

>>22638029
>Average
>non-retarded
Pick one.

>a few months of grammar study and can read fluently
There are street interviews on youtube where random Greeks are being asked if they can understand some ancient author and it's a bunch of
>Teehee yeah I had ancient Greek in school for 10 years but I like don't remember anything apart from like "I am, you is, they are" teehee

>>22638192
The amount of mental gymnastics modern "we wuz" """greek""" balkan barbarians perform is absurd. They are so convinced that they are exactly the same as people who lived thousands of years ago when *everything* was different and so unable to imagine Plato as even sounding somewhat different from their cousin's sister's extortionist's rapist Yorgos Mpampampongolopoulos that they are willing to deny that language changes at all for anyone. Truly an uncultured backwater and a laughing stock squatting, getting fat and gambling on the graves of giants.
>Do you think ppl in the 1500s talked exactly like how Shakespeare wrote
Supreme demonstration of inability to imagine a different past. Where do you think the clumsy spelling system of English came from? Would Chaucer and Shakespeare have caught on in a largely illiterate society if they hadn't been working with a different inventory of sounds? Reconstruction of shakespearean pronunciation is very much a thing, and we anglos and angloids, who know gratitude and know how to honor the past, THANK those who endeavor for it for giving us the opportunity to get that much closer to the Bard.

>>22638234
This "greek" barbarian will probably claim that actually Homer was super literate and definitely a single person and all the comparative studies conclusively proving an oral origin are just some North Macedonian conspiracy or whatever to make Kostantinos Tzipimpoliminorgia feel slightly bad or something. He will also add in some half-wit claim along the lines of "more letters means brain bigger." And to think that some would tiptoe around the sensitivities of these sorts who are willing to slander the past just to pretend that they wuz greeks. Even their word for "is" is now "be."

>>22637926
Are you really trying to learn a dead language without any experience learning a living language to fluency? Good luck, bro.

>>22639023
There is nothing wrong with that

Anyone doing old norse here?

>>22637899
it's an inflective language you dumb fuck

Do classical philologists have to learn Modern Greek? I often see (sometimes optional) Modern Greek courses in M.A. programs for Greek philology but is it actually required in academia similarly to German/French/Italian?

>>22639752
It's trendier now than it was because Mark Zuckerberg's sister wrote an article about it, making "won't someone think of the poor Greeks" a social justice cause all over again. In practice, ordering gyros really isn't that important to the average classicist.

>>22639828
Thank you for the answer. I don't think that German Classics programs are much influenced by social justice stuff – unlike other programs, found a "trans philosophy" seminar in Berlin recently, heh –, but I've seen a university where Modern Greek is unavoidable. I would prefer to not spend any time on it as 4 new languages are more than enough already.

I'm sorry for being such a complete beginner, but I'm reading Athenaze and I encountered the following construction on chapter IV:
>Εν δὲ τούτῳ γυνή τις ὀνόματι Φαίδρα...
I understand that this is a use of the dative similar to the Latin ablative of respect, wherein "nomine" alone can translate to "by the name of". I can't seem to find this exact use of the dative in my grammar though, and since I like to read carefully about new grammar points before moving on, could someone give me some pointers?

>>22639874
I recall maybe in the Italian Athenaze the specific nature of this usage of the dative was introduced later than the basic construction ὀνόματι which is kinda idiomatic and can be forgiven at that stage.
I think a technical term for it would be 'dative of limitation' which behaves quite similarly to the accusative of respect/specification

Good Lord, I would love to be an ancient Greek: talk about philosophy and metaphysics and have a cute boy wife to plow and love

>>22640039
in all likelyhood you (and I) would be a farmer and/or slave. the cohorts of Socrates, Aristotle, Pythagoras, etc. are not emblematic of most of ancient Greek society.

>>22640144
I got the autism, I could make it, if not I'm a farmer that has a boy wife

>>22640144
at least the average peasant/slave back then had a wife and his body wasn't 50% microplastics

>>22618270
my dick is hard, post more pictures of greek femboys

OP can you not put coomer shit into the next post? It will attract the wrong crowd.

>>22640288
this OP isn't the usual, I'm the usual OP
ngl I had a certain janitorial problem and would've had troubles making the next thread so he was kinda helpful

>>22638159
If you actually read Greek, you'll see iotacization occurred by the time of the NT.

>>22638356
>They are so convinced that they are exactly the same as people who lived thousands of years ago when *everything* was different and so unable to imagine Plato as even sounding somewhat different from their cousin's sister's extortionist's rapist Yorgos Mpampampongolopoulos that they are willing to deny that language changes at all for anyone. Truly an uncultured backwater and a laughing stock squatting, getting fat and gambling on the graves of giants.
Greek is a remarkably conservative language. You can't read Beowulf at all. Modern Greeks read the New Testament and Plato with just as much ease, if not more, than you would with respect to reading Chaucer. Plato is over 2000 years old; Beowulf is around 1000.

>>22640468
pretty sure letters like υ and η were still not iota-like, ει was though
like, we wouldn't say Jesus if that was the case, but Jisus in western languages too

>>22640632
n.b disregarding modern angloid pronunciation turning the Latin e into /i/ as well

>>22639102
>For dictionaries I use Cleasby-Vígfusson's, Old Norse Prose and Wiktionary. I also use skaldic.org and heimskringla.no.
I saved this from another anon's post. I think he was very competent in Old English.

>>22618301
sleep tight, plato

>>22640495
θα στα νιομολοδουριος ειναι σαν αρχαιαν μωρε λαλομεν σαν Πλατων ειναι ειναι
transliteration:
thi sti viimilidiiriis ini sin irchiin miri lilimen sin Plitin ini ini

>>22637374
Turns out they are!

>coomer OP
>/pol/ tier arguments
One of the worst threads we've had

>>22638003
I can't help you, but would also be interested in this. Anything worth reading for someone who knows Attic, but not a lick of Demotic?

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22637861
lol

>>22639752
Not at all. Learning German (or even Italian) is a lot more useful for a classical philologist.

>>22637905
It isn't even false to say that every government on the planet is conspiring to kill oral epic, since it's existence seems to be directly tied to illiteracy. It's unfortunate, though perhaps for the better, that this ancient tradition is finally being killed. I just wish there were a way for a literate man to be a bard.

>>22638082
pray tell then why they were universally adopted in the Greek world? The Circumflex is a smoking gun that demonstrates its existence, along with the Indo-European languages that also have pitch accent. I'll also remind you that in ancient Attic inscriptions that what is now represented by ε, η, and ει, was all Ε and ο, ω, and ου by Ο. Furthermore there were several sound changes happening even during the classical era, such as the uneven loss of digamma, the rough breathing, and long α to η.
>>22638192
And this is just retarded one of the primary differences between the subjunctive and indicative is long vs short vowels. And to answer your comment about Shakespeare, do you think the rhymes of his that don't work in modern pronunciation are just "poetic license" or would you be reasonable enough to see that it demonstrates the great vowel shift in English going on during that period which resulted in the modern English vowel sounds

>As for the corpus itself, it now is a ruin. Certainly it exists. But its existence is at least a reminder of what no longer exists, a whole tradition of which we can hear only, here and there, murmurs and echoes.
Utterly soul-crushing. This makes me sadder than I ever thought something like this would.

>>22618270
>τῶν δὲ γυναικῶν τῶν εὐπόρων τινῶν μὲν καρκίνοις σιδηροῖς τὰ σφυρὰ πιέζων συνέτεινε, τινῶν δὲ τοὺς τιτθοὺς ἀπέτεμνεν, ταῖς δ᾽ ἐγκύοις πλίνθους ἐπὶ τὴν ὀσφῦν ἐπιτιθεὶς τὸ ἔμβρυον ἀπὸ τοῦ βάρους ἐξέθλιβεν
The ancients were brutal.

>>22642950
Be happy you got anything at all, the odds of anything surviving pre-printing were miniscule

>>22642950
Just googled this passage. It's from The Complete Old English Poems. Seems like a very nice and exhaustive tome. Do you know if there is a companion piece with the originals? Old English isn't that hard to read (out loud) and with a translation side by side I imagine quite enjoyable.

هل يمكننا ان نتحدث عن العربية الفصحى ؟

>>22644137
>Do you know if there is a companion piece with the originals?
It'd be incredible if there were, but unfortunately I don't think there is. Instead, You can try Richard Hamers' Choice of Anglo-Saxon Verse if you haven't already dug into that one. It's far from exhaustive, but it offers selections of Old English poetry alongside translations.

>>22639752
I will say I know a Swedish woman who also speaks Modern Greek and she's one of the most fluent Ancient Greek speakers I've ever known.

>>22640468
Sure, I'm not denying a lot of sound changes happened earlier than a lot of people would think, but the sounds did have their older value at some point in time.

>>22641010
I was briefly confused here because I mainly know 'Demotic' in the Egyptian context. I usually hear 'Dimotiki' for the modern Greek standard.

>>22644072
Would be higher if the Western Roman Empire hadn't collapsed or had waited until after the invention of the printing press to do so, no?

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

>>22644024
Why is greek vocabulary so complex. Like I've been studying AG for a while now, and when I look I that sentence I can easily tell what case is each word and so. But the only word I recognise from there is women. Latin vocab is so much easier in comparison.
Starting to feel ill never going to make it bros

>>22645237
English has a lot more Latin loans, so you recognize a lot more of its vocabulary from your native language. If you speak a Romance language that effect is exaggerated even further.

>>22645237
>Why is greek vocabulary so complex
>Latin vocab is so much easier in comparison
because of the comparative loan words in English of the two. I've heard estimates that over half of modern English vocab can be traced back to Latin (mostly either directly, or indirectly through French) while roughly 10% can be traced back to ancient Greek - and of that most of it is academic/scientific. there is a general truth, though, that at a certain point of learning Greek roots - because they are much more commonly used than Latin's roots are in Latin - you will be better at predicting novel Greek words than novel Latin words. the problem with that, of course, is that for a non-modern Greek speaker, it takes a while to get to that point. but I would contend that such a phenomenon exists. and, of course, it differs at what point you would reach it based on your specific studying - namely what you study/read.

>>22645263
Do you think someone who's already familiar with scientific and medical terminology in English has any leg up in learning Greek vocabulary?

>>22645300
as opposed to someone who doesn't, absolutely. there are obviously more common words that pretty much everyone comes to know that are from ancient Greek, but the majority are particular academic/scientific/medical jargon.

>>22645237
>>22645248
>>22645263
There are a few more words there that do have English derivations, like καρκίνοις (as in carcinoma, carcinization) πιέζων (as in piezoelectric), πλίνθους (as in plinth), ἐπιτιθεὶς (as in epithesis), ἔμβρυον (as in embryo), and βάρους (as in barometer).

>>22645324
>doesn't
isn't*

>>22645188
Do you happen to know:
1) Whether she learnt Modern or Ancient first?
2) Whether she speaks Ancient using modern or reconstructed pronunciation? (I wonder if it's difficult to use different pronunciations for modern vs ancient as a non-greek)

>>22645346
I believe she started Modern slightly before Ancient but learned them mostly in parallel.
She speaks Ancient in a reconstructed Hellenistic Koine pronunciation, circa 3rd century BCE.

https://twitter.com/sabs_art/status/1436767722155749381

>>22645358
>Hmm...this page doesn’t exist. Try searching for something else.

>>22645367
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_BsPleX0AAln7c?format=jpg&name=900x900

>>22645374
Seen it, but still very nice.

>>22645358
רַגְלָיִם יָפוֹת, if you catch my drift.

>>22645466
Beautiful legs?

>>22645358
He's uncut tho

>>22645237
Is awhile in the neighborhood of one year? Keep at it. After that point, unfamiliar Greek words seem only to decrease while unfamiliar Latin words seem only to increase.

>>22645486
not Jewish, but I imagine it translates to "beautiful foreskin", which is a common phrase a mohel says before he does his thing.

>>22645489
And?

>>22645489
Yes, that's how penises look naturally.

>>22645486
>>22645496
It's beautiful legs alright, but that word was sometimes used as an euphemism for genitals in the Bible.

>>22645509
Ah I see, the first result I got was from Reverso in modern Hebrew so I didn't pick up on that.

>>22645499
>>22645506
Quoted wrong post, meant to quote the hebrew

>>22645496
>which is a common phrase a mohel says before he does his thing
No it's not

>>22645516
Hey, just because he's studying Hebrew doesn't mean he's Jewish. He might be a Christian studying it to read the Old Testament.

>>22645516
>no it's not
as a mohel myself, yes it is. but I can't talk right now, got more baby dicks to suck.

>>22645195
Agreed. I'm not alleging upsilon -> eeepsilon occurred early either.

>>22645737
Isn't that estimated around the beginning of the second millennium CE?
(A side note, I feel like BCE/CE and BC/AD are both unsatisfactory. BCE/CE feel like they're trying to whitewash the fact that it's based on the (estimated) date of birth of Jesus, which it in fact is, but BC/AD not only acknowledge they're based on Jesus but call him 'Messiah' and 'lord' which I don't really want to do since I'm not a Christian. Maybe we should just keep CE/BCE but reanalyze it as 'Christian Epoch'/'Before Christian Epoch'?)

>>22645206
>if

>>22645762
?

>>22645237
>he didn't learn modern Greek first
BIG YIKES

What is the nuance between an indirect statement in oratio obliqua and an indirect question introduced by quod + subjunctive?
Really curious how native speakers of Latin felt about this.

bros I am considering typesetting some texts just to have a copy. print on demand services aren't that bad.

>>22645893
>indirect question introduced by quod + subjunctive
not sure what you're referring to. pretty sure quod is not used in indirect questions. qui(s), quae, quid, I believe are the interrogative pronouns. anyways, indirect questions are based on parallel direct questions or exclamations (e.g. "I asked her how cool the show was" vs "how cool was this show!" or "I don't know what you want to do" vs "what do you want to do?") indirect statements are just statements nested within statements (e.g. "I went to the store yesterday" vs "I told him I went to the store yesterday".

>>22645935
Thanks for clarifying the difference between the two, I really wasn't clear.
Pic related is more or less what I was referring to, though I guess this type of clause takes the indicative and not the subjunctive.

>>22645976
right, with quod as an indirect speech marker it normally has an indicative main verb (though I'm not sure whether it ever becomes subjunctive in secondary sequence). otherwise indirect speech normally just has an accusative subject (if present at all) and an infinitive main verb

>>22645750
how about before The reign of Augustus and In the year of Augustus
birth of christ is close enough to his reign

>>22645750
Do you also agonize over the days of the week being named after Germanic gods? How about July, is that 'unsatisfactory? faggot

>>22645750
Attempts to secularize away Christian hegemony only reify it. See the French laic tradition. As a Hebrew myself, I use BC/AD for secular purposes, because that is where the Western calendar comes from. I refuse to accept monstrosities such as BCE/CE: "common" to whom and for what? There is also a Hebrew calendar for my own cultural purposes. I suggest to all those who have a problem with BC/AD to make like us or the Chinese or Muslims and get their own calendar. Maybe yours can be based off Carl Sagan quotes!

>>22636999
he's (attempting to) show off

>>22646425
what's funny is that I think originally secular people did just say Christian Era. I've heard that occasionally in some older works, but it probably gives more acknowledgement than they want.

>>22627697
>>22628370

>>22645930
You could also make a copy by hand. You'd also get very familiar with the text that way.

>>22646263
Nobody actually associates them with the pagan gods, though, whereas people do associate BC and AD with 'before Christ' and 'anno Domini'. Practically speaking, Norse paganism is more or less dead in the modern day West; it has no social hegemony, nobody is using it as part of a dominant cultural narrative to oppress anyone.

>>22647382
See >>22630171

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22644024
wtf is the context for this

Greek verbs are scary.

>>22645495
How long did it take you to get comfortable?

>>22647810
not them, but time is not a good marker for ability in a language, as one person's "one year" can mean 30 minutes every day while another's can mean 2+ hours a day. and what/how they study can greatly differ too.

>>22647802
with consistent study they will not be

>>22647845
Thank you, anon. I appreciate that.

>>22618270
When do you get to actually start reading greek instead of translating?

>>22647901
from day 1 if you're learning with the right method. Start from Athenaze and then read easy books like Rouse's Greek Boy, Chambers' Greek War of Independence, Moss' First Greek Reader, Xenophon, NT. Also find someone to talk with if possible.
I wish I had done this but I started learning to translate and it took lots of time to adjust to actual reading.

Any anons know how hard Josephus, Diodorus Sicilus and Polybius are?

>>22647862
no problem. the great thing about Greek verbs is that there are distinct markers for indicating/limiting the possible number, person, tense, mood, and voice of a verb. if you tackle them one by one or in select groups, the whole thing becomes a lot more manageable. the problem some people have, and I have had this experience myself in the past, is getting ahead of themselves and focusing too much on the bigger picture. you have to take that part of your brain, materialize it, and beat it to death with a louisville slugger. if you have some experience with language study it will be easier to do, but you ultimately just have to take a leap of faith that if you stay consistent and have the right study habits, you will get there. if you have no other evidence at your disposal, be your own experiment. study, ask for advice where perhaps needed, adjust your habits, and see where you're at in a month, 3 months, 6 months, etc. I was intimidated with Greek at first, even after studying Latin for a couple years, but now I like it more than Latin and am very comfortable with my ability to parse novel verbs. again, just takes consistent and proper study.

>>22647954
Can you summarize some of these optimal study habits?

>Cyrus "συνεγενετο" the Cilician King's wife then his soldiers sacked his capital city then his wife convinced him to not fight Cyrus since he was superior
Suennesis bros...it's over...

>>22644357
صعب كتير

>>22648322
I don't want to be so presumptuous as to say I know the optimal set of habits, but I do think I have a regiment - some more general, others more specific - that is effective.
>reading
best advice imo: read more. grammar is obviously important, but I see some people spend too much time on it. read a grammar explanation once, try to consciously make sense of it (and wrote study the verb/noun/adjective/participle forms if that's the specific grammar point), and then see it a bunch of times in actual sentences. the grammar book will always be there for reference if you need it.
>grammar vocab exercises
this goes with the previous point, but I feel like any benefit you might get from doing an exercises where you have to write a sentence with this or that grammar point or this or that vocab word is much greater when you simply read more. not only are you refreshing your understanding of a grammar point or vocabulary, but you're also (especially early on) seeing novel grammar and/or vocabulary. if you want to be able to output, then by all means, but if you want to simply *understand what ancient authors wrote*, just read more.
>vocab/root study
obviously vocab study is important, as it primes you to recognize those words in novel sentences, but root study is honestly even more useful. ancient Greek roots are extremely productive, i.e., one root can form *a lot* of different words. so, especially as more of a beginner, a solid knowledge of roots will greatly increase the rate at which you progress.
>parsing
work on being able to consciously parsing forms (e.g., when you see ἔμαθε you should be able to readily say "that's a third-person singular aorist active indicative verb"). eventually that understanding will become intuitive, but there will likely be times here and there - even for the advanced reader - where it is useful to consciously parse a given form.
>no lube
reading things "dry", i.e. not using a dictionary or grammar, the first time (and perhaps even the second time) through is good. this too will help you to make sense of novel words, grammar, and sentences.
1/?

>>22648523
>fuck perfectionsim
this applies to both study in general and in specific study sessions, but it is not necessarily advisable to try to get a complete understanding of everything you read. if you're going through a beginner grammar or something I think it is more useful, but especially when dealing with authentic material you do not want to spend time try to make sense of every single word and grammar point when you would be better off going onto something else and seeing more novel material. sometimes it's better to simply have a majority understanding - how much of a majority is up to you to feel out. in specific sessions, you obviously don't want to be looking in a dictionary the whole time. set yourself to some limit, whatever you're comfortable with, and only look up that many words per session. that way you are sure to get through more of the reading. if you have extra time, by all means look up those other words. and try to stick to words you've seen before if you can: that increases the likelihood that the words you are looking up will be ones you will see in other material.

those are the main things I can think of atm.
2/2

>>22648523
>grammar/vocab exercises
in hindsight I think I could've written this (and other sections) better, but just to be clear I'm advocating against doing grammar/vocab exercises.

>>22648322
The other anon gave good advice. I would add that once you get to the point where you can understand some easier texts, read through while listening to an audiobook (if there's not one online make one yourself, this will be extra helpful), underline/note down any words/grammar/etc. you don't understand but don't stop to look them up, try to understand as much as you can in real time. Then read again and look them up. Keep re-reading or listening to the audio until you understand the text to a good level.
You could also do this same method just with a Loeb instead of looking all the words up, but make sure you re-read more if you do that

>>22647920
Maybe you should make a graphic of this plan, seems handy. Do you think Reading Greek is a good component of it?

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22647555
>a dominant cultural narrative to oppress anyone
post nose

DEVO NODENTI SILVIANVS ANILVM PERDEDIT DEMEDIAM PARTEM DONAVIT NODENTI INTER QVIBVS NOMEN SENICIANI NOLLIS PETMITTAS SANITATEM DONEC PERFERA VSQVE TEMPLVM DENTIS

>>22618301
Sleep tight Plato

>>22648656
Ok I will make a graphic at some point. A real start with the Greeks. I haven't read more than a few chapters of Reading Greek but there seems to be way too much vocabulary introduced. I tried reading it in my first few months and I had to look over to the English list every other line. Could have just read real literature in a Loeb at that point. However if another anon has gone through it and it was useful let us know, maybe I just sucked at that point.

>>22618301
Sleep tight, Plato

>>22650764
Maybe I'll make a Start with the Chinese chart then. This thread could use those, since I have a feeling that more people would read them than the FAQ.

>>22650962
Reading Greek imo is most useful as an intermediate reader, just like The Greek War of Independence or A Greek Boy at Home.

>>22649251
My ancestors are mostly from Britain and Ireland. I was talking mainly about things like the oppression of homosexuals, which is still predominantly justified in religious terms.

Salve
Ad linguam latinam discere revenio post circa uno anno permanente feriae. Quomodo rursum meminisse possim?

Haec epistula scripta est cum librum verbi auxilio quo dictionary in lingua anglorum nominatur

>>22651763
Starting this, but I learned Sinographs as a kid, so I can't really give any useful advice on the subject for adults. Does anyone ITT have any words on this? I'm really skeptical of Heisig but of course I'll but a word about him in.

>>22652650
peruse a grammar and see which things you remember better and which things less so. otherwise literally just read. if you've never completed a grammar, maybe try going through one fully. if you care to improve your writing ability, do that. but the single best thing you can do is to read. you'll progress faster with material closer to your skill level but far enough away that it takes some effort. ideally there will be something you're actually interested in that meets this criteria.

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

>>22652753
Gratias ago
Reading seems like a good idea
I think I've got some XVIth century canonical visitation reports from my diocese on my hard drive somwhere. It's about 500 pages of church descriptions. I'll read that and see judge what to do next.

For someone who only reads prose and doesn’t care for poetry even in English, I find learning the long vowels a pain. I realize I have to learn them because when I read out loud (virtually 100% of the time) I sometimes accent the wrong syllable. A lot of work for a small payoff it seems.

>>22653442
Okay. Use Ecclesiastical pronunciation for Latin or Modern pronunciation for Greek then. What should we tell you?

>>22653479
I’m just illustrating the point that one needs to learn the vowel lengths or else they will end up saying things like INveni instead of inVEni or taBUlatum instead of tabuLAtum. I realize how dumb these mistakes sounded so I am now learning them. It just is a lot more work, but Latin can’t really be half-assed

>>22653530
Or you can go with Ecclesiastical and memorize lexical stress, as one does in English, Spanish, or Russian.
You're right that Latin can't really be half-assed though. We're studying a language that nobody speaks: what would even be the point of tourist Latin? It is an all or nothing pursuit.

>>22652148
I wish faggots were as oppressed as you think they are

>>22653565
>lexical stress
does it match up with how it should be in Latin or is this an asinine hope?

>>22624396
Femboy is just contemporary English for an eromenos

>>22653676
Greeks didn't discuss eromenous in the lyceum.

>>22653442
>A lot of work for a small payoff it seems.
Could describe the entire process of learning a dead language if you aren't interested in poetry (or at least the poetic qualities of prose). If you just have obscure interests that lead you to want to read untranslated works, you could probably do that without giving a shit about pronunciation one way or another. But whatever, it's your own time that you're spending.

>>22652753
>literally just read.
Based and true.

>>22618301
sleep tight Plato

>>22653691
My goal is to learn the Vulgate in its entirety. I am halfway through Genesis and I honestly really only want to stress things properly (and don't really care about vowel length), but there is no version with accent marks or macrons throughout so I have no other choice. If I move onto other Latin after I assume it would pay off than to have to relearn all the vocab with proper vowel length.

>>22653675
Lexical stress is phonetic in classical pronunciation and phonemic in ecclesiastical. This is because stress placement depends on the placement of long vowels. In really simple terms:
>language feature B depends on language feature A
>language feature A disappears
>now language feature B is lexical in its own right

>>22653732
>My goal is to learn the Vulgate in its entirety
Serious question: why not learn Hebrew or Greek instead if this is your goal?

>>22653761
It sounds stupid, but I simply like the sound of Latin and have no interest in Greek or Hebrew. It’s a pure subjective reason (and perhaps because it is easier than the other two looking at vocabulary alone). The Vulgate has a beauty to it I can’t describe.

>>22653778
The Vulgate really is the best.
>Si linguis hominum loquar et angelorum, caritatem autem non habeam, factus sum velut aes sonans aut cymbalum tinniens. Et si habuero prophetiam et noverim mysteria omnia et omnem scientiam, et si habuero omnem fidem, ita ut montes transferam, caritatem autem non habuero, nihil sum. Et si distribuero in cibos omnes facultates meas et si tradidero corpus meum, ut glorier, caritatem autem non habuero, nihil mihi prodest. Caritas patiens est, benigna est caritas, non aemulatur, non agit superbe, non inflatur, non est ambitiosa, non quaerit, quae sua sunt, non irritatur, non cogitat malum, non gaudet super iniquitatem, congaudet autem veritati; omnia suffert, omnia credit, omnia sperat, omnia sustinet. Caritas numquam excidit. Sive prophetiae, evacuabuntur; sive linguae, cessabunt; sive scientia, destruetur. Ex parte enim cognoscimus et ex parte prophetamus; cum autem venerit, quod perfectum est, evacuabitur, quod ex parte est. Cum essem parvulus, loquebar ut parvulus, sapiebam ut parvulus, cogitabam ut parvulus; quando factus sum vir, evacuavi, quae erant parvuli. Videmus enim nunc per speculum in aenigmate, tunc autem facie ad faciem; nunc cognosco ex parte, tunc autem cognoscam, sicut et cognitus sum. Nunc autem manet fides, spes, caritas, tria haec; maior autem ex his est caritas.

>>22618301
sleep tight plato

NOVUM
>>22654754
>>22654754
>>22654754

>>22618301
Sleep tight plato