/lit/ - Literature

>>22627470
I just finished his book on Zen and liked it a lot. I’ll probably check out another book of his at some point. Ultimately what your question comes down to is is the advice or message good. Humans aren’t perfect. Everyone will act the hypocrite or fool at times because life is vast, complex, and dependent on infinite variables

>>22627485
I appreciate he put in a lot of work in pushing his ideas/ always sober at talks supposedly. However I do think you have to act in a way that mirrors your teachings, especially philosophy. If the point of life is just to be alive he should have added only if you’re drinking beer on a beach.

>>22627509
Then ignore his philosophy then. It doesn’t bother me

>>22627515
Fair enough, each to their own.

>>22627509
As an alcoholic youre totally right. Without alcohol life is frankly unbearable and I wouldn’t feel any right to the ground of preaching passivity on people who don’t have an alcohol dependency/cope

>>22627470
>Then I found out he was an alcoholic and died from it. I mean cmon anyone can handle life if they’re drunk 24 hours a day.
This is what all feel-good philosophy comes down to at the end of the day, it is a form of intoxication. As soon as the intoxicants are removed, the philosopher will generally spiral down to an even more pessimistic view of reality. The only ironic thing about Alan Watts, if that story is true, is that he respected zen despite it having the polar opposite view of behaviour and reality compared to him (austerity, limited means, simple living, "boring lifestyle"). Zen has never been "doomer" nor optimistic, but in traditional Japanese writers you can typically detect the former element more often, the exception being zen practitioners who were influenced by Pure Land Buddhism, which still has certain negative connotations but overall seems to be much more idealistic than zen.

Interesting article on Alan Watts:
https://counter-currents.com/2015/01/alan-watts-at-100/

Some more:
https://counter-currents.com/2020/01/remembering-alan-watts-5/

>>22627769
Interesting, remove the alcohol and lets see how zen he really is.

>>22627751
Exactly you cannot push cope philosophy if you’re drinking behind the scenes.

>>22627791
Thanks.

>>22627470
Alan watts gained popularity because the CIA needed to obfuscate Alan watt.

>>22627470

No they can't. I think Alan did though. That's why I think he's just a special one.

Alan has very different ideas about alcohol (and good food) than most people. I think it unwise to compare a Zen Buddhist who drinks to a normal day-to-day person.

>>22628774
But he was preaching his ideas to ‘day-to-day people’

>>22628779

They're really not so much as his ideas as ideas on Zen Buddhism and philosophies of the Far East.

>>22627509
>always sober at talks supposedly

lmao

>>22628774
There are no zen Buddhists who regularly drink alcohol.

>>22627470
WE’VE HAD THIS SAME THREAD THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

>>22627470
I think about Martin Luther King Jr. sometimes, he cheated on his wife but he wasn't wrong about the civil rights movement. If Hitler himself said "we shouldn't kick cats" I'd be like "yeah you happened to be right on this one Adolf."

Maybe we can forgive Watts for pitching it as if he practiced it perfectly himself, but that doesn't negate his points. Everyone can aspire to be better, and espouse those ideals, without already having achieved them.

>>22627470
You reminded me of some character from Dostoevsky.
At some point it became something like a fashion among the elites to go to monasteries and visit old monks there.
There were ladies that became fans of some of those old monks.
So some old monk died and one lady were surprised that his corpse rot instead of miraculously mummifying. She started talking about it as if it was a scandal, some new celebrity gossip thing. "Oh my god, I didn't expect him to do something like that".
Dostoevsky ridicules this kind of behavior, this shallow social game that they're playing, completely missing and ignoring the point.

>>22628887
That’s completely different and has no correlation. We get it you read Dostoevsky.

>>22628887
How seriously do Eastern Orthodox take the notion of incorruptible body? Would it really have been that big a scandal among the laity?

>>22628867
Nice take, think it just comes down to how it sits with the individual.

>>22628895
If you don't see the correlation you're just dum dum.

>>22627751
>Without alcohol life is frankly unbearable
Get help my friend

>>22627470
There are no real heroes who lived their convictions. Just myths about them. Use what you think works and be less concerned with who managed to be the most pure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91gT68xeDMM

>>22628933
All except One...

>>22627470
He was the one honest guy out of that whole bunch of bananas...

>>22627509
>always sober at talks supposedly
Nope. There are anecdotes in his bio of him being passed out in the backseat of the car on the way to the venue.

His educated traditional English upper middle class accent is just kino over some vaporwave music, whether what he is saying has any depth or not, it at least has the illusion of depth

There’s nothing hypocritical about alcoholism alcohol is liquid enlightenment

>>22630562
Realm lol he should of been preaching bukowski

>>22628899
Orthodox believers don't put stock in incorruptable body at all, but in TBK Dosto does not describe pious believers - he describes bohemian petite bourgeoisie and decadent aristocrats taking up exotic spirituality as their pastime hobby, which was extremely common for XIX Century Russia. They specifically don't want Orthodox Christianity - they want miracles and a cure for their ennui. The elder in a book is not a member of ordained clergy or even a respected ascetic in his monastery - he attracts the ire of the church and crowds of bohemian visitors both specifically because he lead a very sinful life and now actively preaches (big no-no for a monk) from his personal experience rather than scripture (an even bigger no-no).

Dosto in general does this thing of deliberately separating his brand of Christian spirituality from church, which is entirely understandable given the absolute state of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time.

>>22630641
Exactly, and he more often has a point than not

>>22627470
He is what happens when one realises that God is real and yet refuses to admit they are not God themselves. His pride killed him and it’s a shame. He had a lot of truth to share.

>>22627470
Alan Watts is not valuable.
If you want to use Zen for life improvement, then just read Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). However, if you are interested in Zen as a tradition, then you're better off reading more scholarly figures like Red Pine, Thomas Clearly, and many others. You're better off reading fundamental sutras, figures like Nagarjuna, and the actual teachings of the patriarchs, including studying sectarian differences.
Zen/Ch'an is an actual tradition of patriarchs who have received mind-to-mind transmission. It's not some sophistic hippie bullshit. The Dhamma, Sangha, and Buddha are all important. You can't just forsake all of the rituals or structure of the tradition.
>>22628867
>I think about Martin Luther King Jr. sometimes, he cheated on his wife but he wasn't wrong about the civil rights movement. If
He was wrong, and I'm not a complete chud.

>>22630967
Also, three 20th figures I like are Kodo Sawaki, Kusan Sunim, and Hsu Yun. I would say they were the best Zen Buddhists of the 20th century.

>>22630991
Will check them out, thanks.

>>22627470
he was just human after all.

>>22630913
>alan watts
>pride
lel

>>22627470
Then I found out he was an alcoholic and died from it
I've heard this so many times. anybody who thinks this is an issue doesn't really understand the core of what Alan Watts believed or tried to teach

>>22631148
What did he believe then? 90% of his material is enjoy the moment and just be alive.

>>22627509
my guy, he WAS just being alive, drinking in the sun. That's the result of his philosophy, not the cause.

he succeeding in having big ideas WITHOUT being a miserable and insufferable cunt.

>>22631193
He never mentions alcohol though. He’s literally hippie bukowski.

It’s a little weird how some on the board hate him. Like why?

>>22631212
christcucks mostly

>>22631212
I think a lot of people on this bird, and I’ve been guilty of this in the past too, want more than anything to be seen as superior to the crowd. If you read Alan Watts’ Wikipedia page, you’ll see it mentioned that some experts criticized his works for having misunderstood/misrepresented/oversimplified the philosophies he purported to be discussing. After reading that, these aforementioned anons adopt the view that Watts is a charlatan writer for midwife and that his work as a whole should be discarded. Note that they adopt this POV not because they have any expertise themselves that leads them to see problems in Watts’ writings/ideas, but because they think that the “real” smart people discount him and they want to appear to be part of the “real” smart people.

>>22631240
>bird
*board
>midwife
*midwits

Phoneposting is a hell of a drug..

>>22631240
I get the feeling that most of them have never read him. I posted about Watts a couple times this week because I just finished the Way of Zen, good timing in my part I suppose because there seems to be more discussion about him than usual. I found the zen book informative in an easily accessible way. And if he got some things wrong, I still took some things away and reread a bunch of passages because they were good. I also gained a better understanding and appreciation of zen art. I immediately pulled out a collection of Japanese poems I have and was able to appreciate them more. I have limited experience with Watts but he seems like a writer that is easy to read and can help many. Maybe the board is just contrarian so popular or mainstream is bad

Wattsisters, tell me about your favorite watts books

>>22627515
BASED

>>22630913
When you talk about a prideful god you're projecting your own pride on god.
When you make a social character out of god you're projecting your own social characterness on god.
"Admit that it's only me and not you!" says social character.

>>22631193
> WITHOUT being a miserable
>alcoholism
Drank the eternal kool-aid

Trolled hard Jesus
The infallible God has no plan for his glorious resurrection. Sad!

>>22632243
I never betrayed anyone I dindu nuffin

>>22631152
yes, that, which isn't contrary to drinking heavily. also, that this is just a game, not to be taken seriously, that we're all just characters, playing or acting out our roles in the way that we will, the only way we can. he was acting out the role of Alan Watts, 60s/70s zen-ish English hippie, and i feel he did it quite well. he wasn't a moral guide, he never claimed to be. he also never claimed that there was a right way of living. there's just his way, your way, my way, the other guy's way. the point is to live YOUR life, the way you would, and will, and the only way you can, which is to say that there isn't really any point at all. that's the point. what he did well was entertain, and introduce Westerners to the Eastern ways in a Western way. he did that very well imo. anybody interested in more depth in the topics he brought up would look elsewhere too. if somebody hasn't, then that's on them. I've read lots of Alan Watts, and then because of him, became interested in Hinduism, Taoism, and Zen.

>>22631635
tao watercourse way, way of zen, & in my own way. cloud hidden is a compilation and a few of the writings in there are good too. also liked genuine fake/zen effects - goes well with imow

>>22627470
>I like watts but he died from alcoholism
>noooo that’s not the right way to die!!!
Missed the point

>>22627470
google ad hominem
>>22630711
>he should be preaching bukowski
my fucking sided
anon you made my day

>>22632426
If you live of sedatives like alcohol or opioids and write about living life anyway other than sedatives you’re just bullshitting and missing your own point.

>>22632443
> ad hominem
His arguments boil down to himself… as does it with anyone claiming to teach a way of living.

>>22632450
good thing he explicitly said he wasn't teaching a way of living then, eh?

>>22632450
that argument has been addressed. go eat your crayons

>>22632448
You 190% missed the point of what Watts spoke about. You are not obliged to live in any way or manner whatsoever, there is no technique, there is no ‘optimal’ living situation to be striving for. When you’re free from the desire to be rid of suffering, suffering ceases to be suffering. There is no ‘technique’ to stop suffering. There is no ‘right way’ to live or die.

You got filtered hard.

>>22632415
Thanks anon

>>22632426
Is there anything more pathetic than boring faggots extending their life pointlessly just so they can die in a hospital? God damn dude, we live in a society.

>>22632450
>teach a way of living
Oh so you didnt actually read watts got it

>>22632466
>self-evident thinking goes full circle
>this is profound
Abusing eastern teachings with charisma and western secularism is utter nihilistic drivel.
Just follow the dao, which to me means drinking and fucking. Aka filling the void left by ignorance.

>>22632474
OK well have fun making yourself schizoid by doing nothing with your time and energy but trying to imagine the best of all possible worlds while missing this one. It’s a Daoist precept that things go on of themselves not because you ‘try really hard’ to assist the Dao and ‘get the good result’ instead of letting the Dao do it for you.

>>22632474
>hurr durr self evident thinking is bad
>Daoism is good tho
Holy shit bro log off

>>22632474
you're right. keep on striving for that knowledge/enlightenment! you'll be awakened one day if you try try try hard enough, eventually, and then you'll really be living all woke and unified and shit! just ignore us, we don't know anything

>>22632448
>enlightenment means looking rich and cool and charismatic and having no problems
Oh no no no no wheeeezzee. I bet you think stoicism means don’t feel emotion too.

>>22632544
Stoicism means be a literal statue in a youtube video.

>>22627470
There is a difference between alcohol abuse for escapism and alcohol abuse for enhancement. Also part of his philosophy was don't do anything that doesn't allow you to live it up, using the example that people go to work and suffer all day just to come home to nothing, stating that if that was how it had to be then every time you go home you should be celebrating. And whats a celebration without the libation. I fail to see his alcoholism as a hypocrisy at all. As a matter of fact it would be weird if he wasn't indulgent in many kinds of conscious state altering substances.
>I mean cmon anyone can handle life if they’re drunk 24 hours a day.
I can here his voice in my head saying "yes, thats the point."

>>22632474
I also got the feeling of going full circle with Alan Watts, but not as something bad about him.
It's like you live your life, then you get frustrated or confused and then you seek wisdom, you try to become wise and saint and pure and whatnot, but then you realize that that's not it, you come back to be just a regular ordinary person. The irony and paradox is that the highest wisdom teaches you to be just a regular guy.

>>22632468
Life of luxury blinded you to the absolute decadence the west basks in compared to the rest of the world sustaining it. You have no truth to build upon.
>>22632544
>>22632489
>>22632485
>>22632480
Very uncompassionate to your fellow men. You’re right no man is without vice but if your lifestyle attains to being black out drunk it’s not the right lifestyle for you.
Neither is one that causes harm to others. If you want to be utter nihilistic be so but that’s nothing other than word games, you still have basic needs as a living being.
So why bother? Cause fools inspire foolishness and alerting others of possible harm is nice to do.
There is no high horse for me to stand on nor do I look down upon any.
Day to day living gets so overlooked in the grand scheme of philosophy. Exactly that which harms men more than the ‘great’ events everyone looks forward to.
Follow the dao is useless advice even though it is right. It completely negates the human element, and so did Watts.

>>22632655
lol just say you don't get it. it's okay

>>22631193
>my guy

opinion discarded

>>22632651
more like a spiral maybe, because yes, you go full circle, but also you make some progress, you feel that you know something know.

>>22632651
> The irony and paradox is that the highest wisdom teaches you to be just a regular guy.
> highest wisdom
highest so far

>>22632648
>I can here his voice in my head saying "yes, thats the point."
No, the point is more abstract than that.

>>22632466
>When you’re free from the desire to be rid of suffering, suffering ceases to be suffering. There is no ‘technique’ to stop suffering. There is no ‘right way’ to live or die.
>You got filtered hard.
Imagine living in this much luxury and being so blind.
Is this what you tell people undergoing excruciating pain as well, or will you admit that these ramblings are only relevant to the well disposed that delude themselves with problems.
Its very rich that an alcoholic grifter says there is no 'right way' to live as if that means there aren't 'wrong ways' to live meanwhile enjoying all the fruits his disposition grant him, as if human beings dont have basic needs.
>>22627509
Is completely right.

>>22627470
no, in a way his philosophy is irrefutable
>life is just a ride, beats in a song
his music was just alcohol infused

I'll tell you what confuses the arse off me is how can you be a slim drunk? If you're druk enough to be a heavy duty alkie then by that divine committment alone you're taking in a goodly haul of calories. Plus it bloats you out. Fear of returning to a rotund state is one of the most powerful disincentives to drinking more for me and I'd like to negate it if at all possible, but it seems like you'd just be either never eating or doing so much cardio (while semi-permanently drunk or hungover) that it levels out. Sounds shit.

>>22633239
>as if that means there aren't 'wrong ways' to live
there aren't tho. do you get it now? (methinks probably not)

>>22632655
>y-you have n-no t-truth
Please form a complete thought before posting your nonsensical diatribe again.

>>22627509
>However I do think you have to act in a way that mirrors your teachings, especially philosophy.
Almost all philosophers didn’t. I don’t because I’m not about to get arrested for rape and kidnapping.

>>22627470
>Was he a hypocrite?
yes because he claimed you could be happy through mindfulness but in fact he was 'happy' through alcohol, which makes him a liar and a drunkard

>>22630913
god isn't real

>>22634935
mindfulness and alcohol aren't mutually exclusive

>>22634942
I doubt you are either, bot

>>22634955
you just sinned, faggot

>>22627470
>his philosophy was DUDE just be alive lmfao
You are an absolute idiot.

>>22634935
Retard take.

In this special case, yes, he was a major hypocrite. Considering his philosophy deals mainly with the self and how to lower anxiety, improve mood, and control inhibitions, him being an alcoholic is an artificial doorway that cut-corner any of his teachings on the matter. Its a bit like if a pain patient addicted to oxycontin were teaching medication-free pain control techniques.

>>22632711
>opinion discarded
>and i need you to know it
Show pubes.

>>22635053
This

>>22634949
>>22635032
Drunks.

>>22635026
It’s a meme and a way to start threads.

>>22632941
According to you? I guess its a good thing I didn't hear it in your voice then. I would hate to misrepresent the ideas of some anonymous cunt on 4chan. Thanks for setting the record straight.

>>22635053
>Considering his philosophy deals mainly with the self and how to lower anxiety, improve mood, and control inhibitions
no. incorrect. untrue. false

>>22627470
>anyone can handle life if they’re drunk 24 hours a day
This is completely untrue. The people who are drunk all the time aren't "handling" anything

>>22627470
>Then I found out he was an alcoholic and died from it.
He literally wasn't afraid of death. In fact he was decidedly curious about it. I don't see how his boozing invalidates his approach to life.

>>22636116
being an hedonist invaliding any alleged wisodm

>>22636208
People who enjoy their lives aren't smart like you, amirite?

>>22635929
No, it's really more abstract than "anyone can handle life if they're drunk 24 hours a day".
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that him being an alcoholic makes him a hypocrite, I'm saying that you went too far in the opposite direction. Alan Watts didn't advocate for alcoholism, he was talking about more abstract, more general stuff.

>>22632655
>if your lifestyle attains to being black out drunk it’s not the right lifestyle for you.
Thank you for sharing your opinion

>>22627470
I found his lectures entertaining.

>>22627470
>Was he a hypocrite?
Not really. He called himself an "entertainer", and hated being considered a teacher or a guru. He could sometimes come off as a bit proseletizing but never presented himself as an example of what people should be.

Do you not see the Yellow River come from the sky,

Rushing into the sea and ne’er come back?

Do you not see the mirrors bright in chambers high

Grieve o’er your snow-white hair though once it was silk-black?

When hopes are won, oh! Drink your fill in high delight,

And never leave your wine-cup empty in moonlight!

Heaven has made us talents, we’re not made in vain.

A thousand gold coins spent, more will turn up again.

Kill a cow, cook a sheep and let us merry be,

And drink three hundred cupfuls of wine in high glee!

Dear friends of mine,

Cheer up, cheer up!

I invite you to wine.

Do not put down your cup!

I will sing you a song, please hear,

O hear! Lend me a willing ear!

What difference will rare and costly dishes make?

I only want to get drunk and never to wake.

How many great men were forgotten troungh the ages?

But great drinkers are more famous than sober sages.

The Prince of Poets feast’d in his place at will,

Drank wine at ten thousand a cask and laughed his fill.

A host should not complain of money he is short,

To drink with you I will sell things of any sort.

My fur coat worth a thousand coins of gold

And my flower-dappled horse may be sold

To buy good wine that we may drown the woes age-old
Do not put down your cup!

I will sing you a song, please hear,

O hear! Lend me a willing ear!

What difference will rare and costly dishes make?

I only want to get drunk and never to wake.

How many great men were forgotten troungh the ages?

But great drinkers are more famous than sober sages.

The Prince of Poets feast’d in his place at will,

Drank wine at ten thousand a cask and laughed his fill.

A host should not complain of money he is short,

To drink with you I will sell things of any sort.

My fur coat worth a thousand coins of gold

And my flower-dappled horse may be sold

To buy good wine that we may drown the woes age-old

>>22627470
No, in one lectures he said you cannot change who you are.
Preaty much "You are who you are because you had to be who you are now. If it wasnt so you wouldnt be who you are right now". Or rather "What is happening hat do happen, if it wasnt so it wouldnt happen".

>>22636262
Oh I see. I would like to amend my original statement then.
>Anyone one can handle life if they're...
I can just hear his voice saying "Yes, thats the point!"
I was never trying to imply that he explicitly advocated for alcoholism, I more meant that he certainly wouldn't be the type to condemn excessive alcohol consumption as a way to celebrate life. I think he was very Epicurean in that way.

What stops someone from just being Diogenes and an alcoholic if they just live in the present all the time? Why even have goals? Or does he mean just go to whatever you naturally gravitate towards? I fail to see how most wouldn't just go to cheap dopamine and avoid any discipline whatsoever, like in brave new world

>>22636793
Because some gravitate towards goals?
Some towards hedonism.
Some towards asteticism.

>>22636816
So, Alan advocates just going to whatever you gravitate towards? I just feel without a sense of discipline you're going to go for the quickest source of dopamine and avoid all delayed gratification, which is what actually gets you ahead in life and not some loser fatass on drugs watching netflix all day

>>22636833
I think yes.
>I just feel without a sense of discipline you're going to go for the quickest source of dopamine and avoid all delayed gratification, which is what actually gets you ahead in life and not some loser fatass on drugs watching netflix all day

I mean.. not necessarily.. depends again what you gravitate towards. And even if you end up in hedonism it does not mean you wont get bored by it and pushed away from it. Or some other life changing experience. It is a bit crude to say one will live the way he lives forever.

>>22636951
well said, thanks anon

>>22636990
You are welcome anon.

Now that you mentioned all this. Would it not watxhing netflix all day and zaking drugs actually be discipline?

Disciplined:showing a controlled form of behaviour or way of working.

Hedonism indeed is a controlled form of behaviour, but controled by desire for pleasure hahaha.
Definition does not state: restraining one self from this or that.

So i guess both hedonism, astetics and balanced aproach is disciplined, the difference comes from: by what is your behaviour controlled.

>>22637018
To me discipline means being in control of your mind and actualizing delayed gratification. This is what allows someone to be different than some animal and achieve wealth, fitness, long term fulfillment. You can feel good short term with hedonism but wisdom shows it's usually going to net you with less long term.

>>22637045
Indeed anon, you have specific form of discipline and it is indeed virtous.
But your discipline is what we might call: Growth discipline, or rather, rational discipline since your behavior is controled by your rationality.
But it is a case that definition of disciplime does not state what kind of control it is exibited and thus while your discipline (controled behavior) is indeed different from that off a junky, he also is disciplined (controled behavior) but by his desire for a high: what we may call bodily discipline (idk about other name).

>>22631212
He is entry level and honestly more of a cultural relevance than a theoretical one.

>>22636793
There are some bits and pieces of mentions of discipline, self-improvement here and there in his lectures.
It's hard for me to remember what Alan Watts thought about the issue of "why even have goals" because a lot of his lectures are dedicated to describing other people's thoughts, not his own, (he adds his thoughts in the process of describing someone elses thoughts), he would present the daoist or buddhist perspective, for example, so you get his perspective on daoist perspective on some issue.

>>22636116
I'm not scared of a lot of things when I'm pissed off my ass.
Guy was a fraud.

>>22630913
Lol I thought you were replying to the anon who posted Jesus and I was like: damn, he's right. But I guess it applies to watts, too.

>>22628857
>t. hasn't read the dharma booms

>>22627470
Strictly from a Buddhist perspective, if he achieved Nirvana then it doesn't matter how he died. Even if he slit his own throat he won't be subject to rebirth. Therefore if he was a drunk and died of alcoholism is entirely moot. A bad example for his unenlightened followers but no problem for him

>>22633447
Alcohol making you fat is a myth.

>>22639481
wouldnt alcoholism always be the result of some kind of tanha/desire/privation in buddhism though?
no one who is perfectly content drinks just because

>>22628720
can you explain more?

>>22639481
yeah, but he was not enlightened, not even the first stage

>>22636793
Sounds like projection. Though I understand the draw towards feeling this way the fact is that there are many people who are not like us and would gravitate towards better things than raw hedonism. If there weren't any people like this we would just have hedonism now.

>>22627769
>This is what all feel-good philosophy comes down to at the end of the day, it is a form of intoxication
Everything motivational is a form of intoxication. Nothing would be done if there wasn't a "buzz" attached to it.

>>22628857
There was at least one.
>Ikkyū (一休宗純, Ikkyū Sōjun, February 1 1394 - December 12 1481) was an eccentric, iconoclastic Japanese Zen Buddhist monk and poet. He had a great impact [...] on Zen itself, including breaking Buddhist monastic teachings with his stance against celibacy.[2]
>Ikkyū could sometimes be a troublemaker. Known to drink in excess
Confirmed enlightened:
>One day a band of blind singers performed at the temple and Ikkyū penetrated his kōan while engrossed in the music. In recognition of his understanding Kaso gave Shuken the Dharma name Ikkyū, which roughly means 'One Pause'. In 1420, Ikkyū was meditating in a boat on Lake Biwa when the sound of a crow sparked satori. Kaso confirmed this great enlightenment and granted Ikkyū inka.

>>22639839
Excess calories make you fat and alcohol has a lot of calories.

>>22628927
He did, it's called alcohol

>>22642691
There are no zen Buddhists who regularly drink alcohol

>>22636816
>Because some gravitate towards goals?
Most people don't though. Most people only work because they need to in order to live. 99% of people don't intrinsically gravitate towards goals

>>22636793
You're already unavoidably "living in the present" "all the time". Where else could you be? Any goals and movement towards them are already happening entirely in the present.
One of the fundamental illusions is that we experience time. We've never actually experienced the past or the future, they're nothing but imagination. That might sound trivial but the point is to realize it experientially rather than think about it or merely believe it. Then your happiness is no longer arbitrarily delayed to some imaginary future. Motivation then comes from a natural expression of satisfaction and enjoyment rather than from an attempt to alleviate dissatisfaction and stress. You will probably stop caring about some things because they become redundant (including many 'cheap dopamine' activities), but that does not entail no goals and a lack of discipline. In fact, you may find it easier, more natural, even effortless, to pursue your goals as many of the psychological barriers will subside.

>>22644856
>Motivation then comes from a natural expression of satisfaction and enjoyment rather than from an attempt to alleviate dissatisfaction and stress
I still don't get why anyone would work a job then or invest their money without just blowing it all whenever they got it. inherently you have to believe there is a future or you'd just never work and blow all your money the second you got it. I just don't see how this is compatible to delayed gratification/marshmallow test

>>22645013
Under the common paradigm it is the case that one kind of person feels dissatisfaction and stress and wants to alleviate it asap, whereas the other person delays gratification and can bear that dissatisfaction and stress until a certain goal is met. The point I am getting at is that this is a false dichotomy.
It is possible to feel content at all (or at least most) times, when this is the case there's less or no neurotic craving for alleviation via hedonistic pleasures nor is there any aversion to moving towards goals. It's not like you become stupid or short-sighted and then no longer care about having income, investing money, eating well, exercising, having goals etc. You can still consider them preferable/better things to do. Realizing this deep unconditionally available gratification allows you to move towards goals for the enjoyment of both the path and the achievement without any stress about them.
>inherently you have to believe there is a future
You're right that if one tries to suppress thinking about the past or future altogether it will likely lead to adverse outcomes. The point isn't so much to get rid of the concepts of the future or the past, but to see them for what they actually are and how we're so often incessantly thinking of the past or future even when it's not beneficial.

There is of course more to it than what I'm saying here, and I'm relatively unfamiliar with Watts although I know that this is more or less the kind of thing he'd say, but if you're curious for more detail then his work seems to be a decent place to start.

>>22633447
>>22643712
True alcoholics who get fall-down drunk all day every day just don't eat much.

>>22627470
>DT Suzuki liked him

He was a trailblazer in his day and has to be seen in that light. Watts was however quite the alcoholic lush and womanized to the detriment of his several wives and many children by them.

>>22633447
Nicotine to suppress appetite, and not going for beer or sweet cocktails.

>>22645555
Checked

>>22645555
Also, great post thank you.

>>22628899
Very important in the tradition, you basically need to have an incorruptible body in order to be made a Saint. >>22630860 is completely clueless.

>>22633477
>there aren't tho.
Wanton oppression and cruelty is anti human. Blasé nihilistic attitude aside, there are wrong ways to live life and you will get punished for it.
Feel free to prove me wrong and bash your head against the wall for 22 yearrs.

>>22645922
Giwtwm.
>>22645948
>niggatine
Good point

>>22630641
https://youtu.be/viatji__YX8?si=H_mXvL_qInWTIf6r
Great song, great album, but uses some Alan Watts audio in the very beginning and at 10:45

>>22632651
>>22632724
There’s an old Buddhist story of a farmer sowing his field when he suddenly achieved spiritual enlightenment.

What did the farmer do afterwards?

He continued tending to his fields.

>>22627509
>>22627751
I feel this is the case with just basic brain chemistry. I feel genuinely happy most of the time, I can appreciate beauty easily, I thoroughly enjoy meals I've had a million times before, I am just very sensitive to positive emotion and it's wonderful. For people who are not, they are just going to have a worse time in life, and no amount of philosophy is going to change the starting point of the mechanics that are the foundation for whether your experience of life is going to be good or bad. I have to remind myself that my judgements of people who take drugs are based on my own ability to enjoy life without any substances altering my perception, and when considering other people it's important to consider they have different parameters of perception that they must deal with.

>>22629976
You are referencing a myth

>>22632651
>>22632724
>>22648628
A saying from the Zen tradition came to mind while reading these posts, Watts himself has quoted it:
>Before I had studied Zen, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.
I don't know what Watts says about it but to me it's akin to the Heart Sutra. The first "stage" is knowing only form. The second stage is knowing form is sunyata or empty. Here many can get stuck clinging to emptiness and rejecting form. The third stage is realizing that, as the Heart Sutra says, "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". These insights also happen with the "I, me, self, ego, etc"; the third stage is the realization of the completely ordinary and obvious fact that the absence of self is everything's presence.

Watts and Zen etc are not suggesting that you merely carry on as you are and just think "enlightened thoughts". At awakening there is indeed a profound change in how you perceive the world and yourself. You still see the same world but you now begin to see through the illusions fabricated by the mind. The irony being that the concepts and beliefs "I'm not awakened", "I'm awakened", "I'm not sure if I'm awakened or not" etc are also illusory.

>>22649185
A passage from the Platform Sutra with a similar message also came to mind:
>When a person’s mind has no thoughts and is fundamentally empty and still and free of false views, this is the greatest of all causes—which occurs when you aren’t confused about the inside or the outside, when you are free of dualities. If you’re confused about the outside, you’re attached to forms. If you’re confused about the inside, you’re attached to emptiness. To be free of form amid forms and to be free of emptiness amid emptiness, this is when you aren’t confused about the inside or the outside.