/lit/ - Literature

*paralyzes your spine*

>>22592767
Nope, I am on the verge of suicide because the past keeps haunting me. I am so broken.

No, I really I have no idea how this aphorism was ever once entertained by anyone ever. Traumatic experiences do just as they are named, induce trauma. They absolutely lower quality of life going forward. I mean, this is one of those things where the exact opposite is true. It's as though he said "the great thing about apples is that they're long, yellow, and easily peeled."

>>22592767
Yes

>>22592767
Whatever doesn’t kill you… simply makes you—stranger.

>>22592767
His own life was a refutation of this

>>22592767
If that were true then I'd be the superman.

>>22592767
I don't know what Nietzsche means by strong, but if he means to a superior determination, self-control, and good judgment of character. He is wrong, situations that cause you harm of any kind make you schizo at best and depressed, unmotivated, etc. At worst.

>>22592767
Wasn't it followed by something in the vein of "If it doesn't make us stronger, it makes us more insightful"?

>>22592823
I always read it in the way that if the lowest point of your life wasn't enough to destroy you or to make you give up, if you're still breathing and it made you realize how much strength is hidden within your being, then surely such a realization will make you stronger and fill with some form of optimism and give you that small boost needed to persevere and continue onwards. I never read it in a way that Nietzsche was dismissing traumas and actual horrific events that happen to an individual or saying "just will yourself out of it, bro". It is sort of like that King Lear quote: "“And worse I may be yet: the worst is not/So long as we can say 'This is the worst.”.

>>22592767
If you are of strongmind then suffering can make you stronger than anyone else
I recently spent a bunch of time around people who had good, functional lives and it was like Bilbo coming back to the Shire and seeing all the simple Hobbits with compassion and a certain pity

>>22592767
My dick fell off

>>22592767
If they are overcome, absolutely. You become stronger or enhanced through difficulties that are forced upon you.

>>22592823
This is not true at all. This is only the case if your trauma is never resolved. You can read tons of accounts of traumatized people healing and being completely transformed by an experience that originally brought pain. They change in a way that could only happen from the resolution of trauma.

>>22592767
Yes.

>>22592823
Someone who is "traumatized" had a fatal blow committed to their ego and they are refusing to grieve i.e. accept their ego death in full.

>>22592883
If it doesn't make us insightful, it makes us more gay

>>22592767
Not as a statement on its own with no hint about the thought process behind it.
If your limbs fall off and you survive you're not stronger.
The point is true in nature. Everything we consider strength is an adaptation to adversity.

Retarded thread, but so I don't have to make everyone suffer yet another Nietzsche thread, I'll ask the question here. Are there any systematic, strong Christian responses to Nietzsche?

>>22592767
It's not really "that which happens" that makes us stronger or weaker psychologically, but how we perceive it. "Something good happening" and "something bad happening" are both merely something happening, mere change, it's the mind that makes one seem good and the other seem bad and then erroneously believes this goodness or badness to be inherent in the event and does not recognize it as being an afterthought. Only when the mind intervenes does a distinction appear and beliefs about one or the other form, and these beliefs are what cause psychological pain/suffering or joy and inform our valuation of these states. I believe Nietzsche was trying to interrupt this mental intervention and alter these beliefs in his readers and probably himself; in this sense much of his work wasn't about stating universal truths, but trying to enchant you with ubermensch spells.

>>22593138
Not quite systematic, but Wagner blows Nietzsche out of the water. If anything, Nietzsche himself is a response to Wagner's christian humanism.

>>22592883
You might be thinking of this. I'm paraphrasing but in the preface to The Gay Science he writes:
>I doubt that great suffering makes us better, but I know that it makes us more profound.

I experienced a traumatic experience from drug induced psychosis which developed a panic disorder in me which has now been with me for two years. I have been better and worse, and through the entire time I have suffered, been conscious of it, and wrestled minute by minute only to return to the life I could live before this occurred. I can only imagine what someone going through wartime PTSD has to suffer. To say someone is stronger from overcoming something is not accurate, because nothing is ever really overcome. Isn’t that what they teach you in AA? Even if you stop, you’re an addict for life. It’s by these simple principles we can move past Nietzsche

>>22592767
Absolutely not. He used that line of reasoning as a cope & a means of reconciling his proto-nazi, quasi-fascist might makes right philosophy with his own personal history as an extremely frail, sickly child/teenager who was bed-ridden for months on end lol

>>22593194
>Wagner blows Nietzsche out of the water
On what, exactly?

>>22593196
See >>22592993

The issue with trauma is that it's a sign that a person refuses to die when they're meant to — it doesn't refute Nietzsche's statement because a traumatized person isn't a survivor, but something in between, an undead type. When trauma is properly overcome (that is, when a person has provided them with the safety needed to grieve the loss of their own purity and with the time to heal from the grief) then the individual does come out much stronger. They end up more resilient because they understand better.

>>22593203
Nietzsche's philosophy isn't proto-Nazi. 20th century American capitalists grasped him better than the Nazis ever did. Nice worthless ad hominem, by the way.

>>22593196
That's not trauma. I doubt it's a panic disorder but what's stopping you from working on that?

>>22593138
Nihilism by Seraphim Rose

>>22593226
On pretty much everything.

>It was a weighty feature of the Christian Church, that none but sound and healthy persons were admitted to the vow of total world-renunciation; any bodily defect, not to say mutilation, unfitted them. Manifestly this vow was to be regarded as issuing from the most heroic of all possible resolves, and he who sees in it a "cowardly self-surrender"—as someone [Nietzsche] recently suggested, —may bravely exult in his own self-retention, but had best not meddle any further with things that don't concern him.

atheists are cringe for babbling about strength and empowerment all the time

>>22592767
No.

>>22592767
For every good Nietzsche aphorism, you have to sit through 15 'live love laugh' aphorisms.

>>22592771
Boomers do this to me spiritually and financially every single day and I am not any stronger for it if anything I am a meeker slave mentality that is more Christianized by picking up my cross and bearing it in abject humiliation

>>22593375
This is exactly what Nietzsche is good for. Dude bro lifestyle coaching in Karen country

>>22593325
literal word salad, wagnercuck exposed himself as a pseud

>>22592883
He also has a aphorism in either the same section or the one just prior where he quotes a Roman author in Latin which translates roughly to the more wounds one acquires the more Valor they possess. In daybreak he also has a an aphorism on malcontents which essentially says in the pre-society days of humanity the people who would later become masters lamented that cowards could enjoy the same privileges they did but without having to risk their lives to get to that point in a sanitary society. It can be grasped on a number of levels, improving your physical fitness means exerting your body without killing it so that it will regrow stronger than before. If you live in the moment and take risks to get to certain outcomes inevitably you will fail, use this as a learning experience and you will become "stronger" in essence. The aphorism itself at the beginning can be translated as from the war of life, or could also be translated as from the academy of life, the German word for stronger also has a less well used English meaning for powerful as well. This type of nuance is actually more common in Nietzsche than his popular quotes give him credit for, you can also look up how many times he uses wordplay for suffering and pity, in German the words are very similar. He does this also in his critique of word vocalizations in Truth in a nonmoral sense where he talks about the German word for snake, worm, and string/coil.

>>22592767
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsupervised_learning

No, just look at how retards are trying to defend this
>B-BUT YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SURVIVE, YOU ARE LIKE AN UNDEAD YOU SEE, YOU HAVE TO DIE TO SURVIVE
Absolute pseud delusion for everyone to see
Trauma might make you stronger against a certain type of thing depending on circumstances, but 99% of times it's a net negative on your person. This is actually agreed on by all kinds of neurologists and pyschiatrists.
You don't "just get over it" when your brain is fucking damaged, no matter how much you try to justify it with meaningless midwit sophistry

>>22593859
>Trauma might make you stronger against
Trauma makes you stronger, if you are strong enough to shrug it off and not be bothered by it. Making it not a trauma, but novelty-detection experience and error-autocorrect adjustment.

"Conversely, it is the weak characters with no power over themselves who hate the constraint of style: they feel that if this bitterly evil compulsion were to be imposed on them, they would have to become commonplace under it - they become slaves as soon as they serve; they hate to serve. Such minds - and they may be of the first rank - are always out to shape or interpret their environment as free nature - wild, arbitrary, fantastic, disorderly, and surprising - and they are well advised to do so, because only thus do they please themselves! For one thing is needful: that a human being should attain satisfaction with himself - be it through this or that poetry or art; only then is a human being at all tolerable to behold! Whoever is dissatisfied with himself is continually prepared to avenge himself for this, and we others will be his victims if only by having to endure his sight. For the sight of something ugly makes one bad and gloomy."

>>22593859
>>B-BUT YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY SURVIVE, YOU ARE LIKE AN UNDEAD YOU SEE
>You don't "just get over it" when your brain is fucking damaged
The key question is: for how extended period of time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes_of_religiosity#Imagistic_mode
"collective rituals that are infrequent and highly emotional. Examples of these types of rituals include various initiation rites and rites of passage.[18] The often dysphoric and highly emotional nature of these types of rituals activate the episodic memory system, resulting in detailed autobiographical memories. These dysphoric rituals can produce an extreme form of cohesion with the group, known as identity fusion.[19] DMR posits that fusion with other group members will also motivate the individual to act out extreme forms of altruism, especially when the group is threatened.[20] Therefore, the imagistic mode of religiosity prevails when a group’s survival depends on extremely high levels of cohesion."

Those ooga-booga savages are implanting needles in their noses for a reason.

>>22593890
>>22593906
No amount of word salads and made up theories will make you right when you are provably, observably, clearly wrong.
This is not some abstract thing to engage in sophistry about, it is proven you are fucking wrong.
>huh look I posted a quote that says I am right!
That quote is wrong, even if it were to make sense at first glance (it doesn't) when it comes in contact with reality it shatters
Try googling what abuse does to the brain, instead of googling quotes from people who don't know shit about the topic (nietzsche)

>>22593859
Literally me

>>22593925
Yeah and if you can never get to safety you're basically fucked for life. It happened to me. Maybe when they legalize MDMA for therapy it could be another chance but I'm not holding my breath.

>>22593925
>No amount of word salads and made up theories will make you right when
Shirt-term vs long-term biological effects of adrenaline and cortisol, capiche? I repeat: for how long is stress reaction protracted, cretin? How frequently does it happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biology)
"Stress is the body's method of reacting to a condition such as a threat, challenge or physical and psychological barrier. There are two hormones that an individual produces during a stressful situation, well known as adrenaline and cortisol.[2]"

Or is biology a "word salad" for a 2-digit IQ-bearer such as you?


>Try googling what abuse does to the brain
Try googling how eustress differs from distress, imbecile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biology)#Eustress
"Where stress enhances function (physical or mental, such as through strength training or challenging work), it may be considered eustress. Persistent stress that is not resolved through coping or adaptation, deemed distress"

>That quote is wrong, even if
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biology)#Cognitive_appraisal

>>22593969
>Short-term
*typo

>>22593969
Stress has short term effect on middle aged people but permanent effect on children, meaning the quote in the OP is wrong, you fucking retard.
There is no recovering from childhood abuse, you can succeed in spite of it, but it will never make you stronger.
And even if it does, it only happens sometimes, meaning the quote is still fucking wrong.
Saying
>NO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK IT DOESN'T COUNT, THEY ARE UNDEAD NOT SURVIVORS
Is fucking retarded and you know it.
"Just get over it" doesn't work on childhood traume, you absolute moron, posting a link to the definition of stress does not refute this in any fucking way, you useless midwit.

>>22592767
Depends on a context.

>>22593859
>Absolute pseud delusion for everyone to see
How, exactly? Even modern therapists see trauma in that sense. Traumatic individuals are helped by being encouraged to grieve; grieving is a process of learning (brain activity is very similar between the two). The person who is "traumatized" has not yet overcome the issue, meaning it is in fact in the process of killing them; it's like having cancer of the mind. The person who successfully does grieve and then overcome their trauma, however, without a doubt becomes stronger for it.

>>22592823
I will never understand how the man whose ideas were so utterly refuted by his life circumstances in every aspect became popular. I know it's all cope but you'd think that the guy who had a nervous breakdown (and had been noted for mental stability before) and proceeded to spend the rest of his life an invalid in a mental hospital would be a fair warning for anyone looking at his ideas of strength and will and life and think they're a suitable model to follow.

>>22594162
*instability

>>22594162
>I will never understand how the man whose ideas were so utterly refuted by his life circumstances in every aspect became popular.
They weren't, though.

>>22594130
>Without a doubt becomes stronger
Prove it.
Show me the brain of a traumatized abused child become more active than that of a normal child
>It is on the process of killing them
No it isn't, not always, plenty die old and fucked up in the head

>>22594175
>Prove it.
Many top therapists were themselves traumatized individuals, and many artists as well. We've always had therapists in society, by the way; in the past, they were shamans, or ritual elders.

>No it isn't, not always, plenty die old and fucked up in the head
I'm talking about spiritual death here. A traumatized person may as well be dead, because they have a cancer running rampant in their mind and slowly destroying them from within. However, it's possible to cure it, and then that person has greater wisdom than the average person, making them more resilient.

>>22594173
>So sickly he could not overcome his weakness and become a soldier, instead forced to be an professor, arguably the weakest and most decadent of all professions
>supposed to be commended for dedicating his life to his work and not hedonism when he was a well known chronic masturbator and simp for salome
>supposedly made so many enemies because he was the only man in all of Germany with integrity and certainly not because he was the original edgy angsty contrarian teen who alienated all his friends because SOCIETY didn't conform to HIS standards and not the other way around
>And a philosophy almost entirely based around coping with suffering by turning into a schizophrenic egoist has absolutely nothing to do with prioritizing the inverse of suffering, comfort/life, or even that he supposedly saw through the veil of all of western philosophy as no man had ever done and judged it to be bullshit and please read his books on how things really ought to be, i.e a schizophrenic struggle just like he goes through day to day
>And the circumstances surrounding his death definitively put to rest any notions about suffering being good for you anyway
All the suffering in his life, beyond his mental problems, was self inflicted, and all his writings (beyond birth of tragedy, that was alright) are messes that only work because they're so vague you can make up any bullshit and it's supported by the text. Face it, the man was mentally unstable, and while he may have started off brilliant he (and his works) quickly degenerated into a mess of incoherency.

>>22594193
>Many top therapists were themselves traumatized individuals, and many artists as well. We've always had therapists in society, by the way; in the past, they were shamans, or ritual elders.
That's irrelevant, you can succeed in spite of trauma, and people with trauma are more likely to study psychology to understand themselves, you see this every time you meet psych students.
>I'm talking about spiritual death here
Fucking meaningless, cannot be measured, cannot be proven. You can use it to spin the argument however it favors you.
>You see, that example actually doesn't count because he is spiritually dead!
Absolutely fucking meaningless, I can claim you are spiritually dead so your opinion is worthless, can you disprove it?
>However, it's possible to cure it, and then that person has greater wisdom than the average person
So, basically, when Nietzsche is wrong it doesn't count, but when he is right he is!
No, some times people get over trauma, some times they do not, it doesn't always make you stronger, in fact even if you get over it you may still not be a better person because of it.
>greater wisdom than the average person
Is a claim that once again relies on complete headcanon, it cannot be proven, wisdom itself has a debatable meaning, it rests upon pure sophistry and has no relation to reality. Meet 10 abused people and maybe 1 is doing fine (not great, fine).

>>22594247
>when Nietzsche is wrong
never has happened

>>22593993
>"Just get over it" doesn't work on childhood trauma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_in_early_childhood#Levels_of_stress
"Positive stress is necessary and promotes resilience, or the ability to function competently under threat.[13] Such stress arises from brief, mild to moderate stressful experiences, buffered by the presence of a caring adult who can help the child cope with the stressor.[9] This type of stress causes minor physiological and hormonal changes to the young child; these changes include an increase in heart rate and a change in hormone cortisol levels.[4] The first day of school, a family wedding or making new friends are all examples of positive stressors.[4] Such experiences can promote healthy development within an environment of supportive relationships, giving children the chance to observe and practice healthy responses to stressful events.[9]

Tolerable stress comes from adverse experiences that are more intense in nature but short-lived and can usually be overcome.[4] The body's stress response is more intensely activated due to severe stressors.[14] Some examples of tolerable stressors are family disruptions, accidents or a death of a loved one. It is important though to realize that such stressors are only tolerable when managed the correct way. Tolerable stress can turn into positive stress.[14] With appropriate care from adults, young children can easily cope with tolerable stress and turn it into positive stress."


>There is no recovering from childhood abuse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
"Neuroplasticity was once thought by neuroscientists to manifest only during childhood,[9][10] but research in the latter half of the 20th century showed that many aspects of the brain can be altered (or are "plastic") even through adulthood.[11]"

>>22594373
>Tolerable stress can turn into positive stress
Untolerable stress can't.
We are talking about untolerable here since by OP's quote we are in a life and death scenario (death of the soul, whatever, still pretty untolerable)
>Neuroplasticity was once thought by neuroscientists to manifest only during childhood,[9][10] but research in the latter half of the 20th century showed that many aspects of the brain can be altered (or are "plastic") even through adulthood.[
...and? you can still alter the brain, you will be at a disadvantage to those that haven't had it fucked up by trauma, so you will not be "stronger".
It seems to me the goalpost has been pushed so far from the original debate you don't even know what you are arguing anymore.

>>22594162
why then, o nietzsche hater, are you so convinced by Yeshua's suicide by cop?

>>22594522
>in a life and death scenario
Which these >>22593906 rituals are set to emulate, for example.

>We are talking about
>since by OP's quote we are
We are talking about >>22593890 you not comprehending what Nietzsche was talking about.

>...and?
>>22593846

>>22594628
There's very little in common between a rite of passage (which is meant to be passed) and prolonged abuse starting in childhood.

Initiation rites integrate a person into a group but suffering abuse with no means of escape often either isolates the person or makes them only available for other people with issues. The opposite effect of initiation.

Also an initiation is a controlled and planned process, not random terrors.

And that anon is right, nobody who was ever left alone in a basement for years during their childhood is going to be stronger. At best they'll have a lot of catching up to do to become a normal person of they're lucky.

>>22593375
Some of his aphorisms are kino as fuck

>>22594687
>Live, laugh, love
>Suffer, kill, die
Same shit, different audiences

>>22592767
https://youtu.be/SiePDFhRjrM&t=137

>You know how people say
>What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
>Well I've seen the nearly killed
>And that just couldn't be more wronger

>>22594671
you can be killed and yet still shuffle around; Nietzsche is not considering things from a purely medical or even psychological perspective not unless you mean something the Greek psuche... put another way and perhaps more clearly, strength or robustness is a matter of capacity to endure and perform, so someone who neither endures nor performs cannot be described as strong, those who do not face death cannot be alive, those who do not take poison cannot be immune to it, and so forth... values must be tested

>>22594694
The Taylor Swift—Death Grips Scale

Nietzsche wrote "me", not "us". He certainly wouldn't have thought that great suffering or trauma necessarily makes everyone stronger, but only some of his readers or "free spirits" who were naturally so or could come to that way of life-affirmation. More of a goal or ideal to strive for, and perhaps would be better stated as "what doesn't kill me, can make me stronger". Also the quote is from "Maxims and Arrows" which is basically a short collection of tweets, so it's profundity or lack thereof may be best considered in that context.

>>22594162
I don't entirely disagree with you but interestingly Nietzsche attempted to defend himself against this attack shortly before he went insane
>There is a false saying: “How can someone who can’t save himself save others?” Supposing I have the key to your chains, why should your lock and my lock be the same?

>>22595253
When you get to the bottom of it, he is correct.

>>22594230
>chronic masturbator
You mean like all of us here and virtually every other man on earth? Including pious Christians, who simply call their masturbation "prayer" and feel superior for it since they're psychotic child molesters.

>>22594247
>you can succeed in spite of trauma
Didn't say or suggest otherwise, but overcoming some suffering will reward an individual with wisdom that others don't have access to. It's like lifting weights but for the emotional self. Do you think your muscles will grow if you don't tear them to shreds?

>Fucking meaningless, cannot be measured, cannot be proven.
It exists nonetheless despite the absence of adequate apparatus for measuring it.

>Absolutely fucking meaningless
Is this all you can say?

>it doesn't always make you stronger
If you truly overcame it, then you'd be made more resilient to its stimuli and more understanding of its nature, which is a kind of spiritual strength, at least as far as non-retards are concerned.

>le cannot be proven, le meaningless
Whatever faggot, enjoy having your head buried in the sand.

>>22592767
no it is actually like the joker said : What does not kill us makes us stranger... that is at least my personal experience

>>22594162
>and proceeded to spend the rest of his life an invalid in a mental hospital
He had an organic brain disease you nigger
You might as well ignore every dead philosopher because the end result of their philosophy was death.

>>22593196
>Isn’t that what they teach you in AA? Even if you stop, you’re an addict for life.
AA (and NA) is an unironic cult that need you feeling eternally weak so you keep supporting them.
t. overcame years long opiate addiction alone
>It’s by these simple principles we can move past Nietzsche
Those simple principles are wrong

>>22597486
You mean syphilis? And pray tell how we are supposed to admire him in spite of that? The circumstances of his life utterly refute his philosophy. Either he was too weak to overcome his own mental illness or he had "an organic brain disease" because he was too much of a bitch to get with an actual woman. Success in life is living a healthy, happy one surrounded by friends and family, not dying alone because you were too much of a sperg.

>>22597507
>You mean syphilis?
That diagnosis is by no means proven. You'd know this if you took even a minute to look into it instead of just instantly shitting out your 'hot take'.
Whatever the cause there is no philosophy that will save you from your brain being physically destroyed.
>prostitutes are le immoral it proves he is le failure!
You're a faggot beyond belief and the rest of your post is worthless.
Don't expect any more (You)s until you up your game.

>>22596359
>Discuss scientific biological consequences
>Use terms that do not belong and are meaningless in this discussion
>What the fuck, why are you calling me out?

>>22592767

>>22598307
A dragon mostly symbolizes a threat that must be destroyed. This specifically would symbolize the cycle of life as something evil that must be destroyed

>>22592767
If you take his other line,
>One must need to be strong in order to become strong
then it makes perfect sense.

The idea is that growth needs adversity. This is obvious... no one here should need a "proof" for this. You can observe it everywhere.

All societies that become soft eventually die, and Europeans were becoming soft. That's why Nietzsche wrote these things.

>>22592767
He's just a coping version of Schopenhauer, who in turn is just pseudophilosophy

>>22596337
>coomer degenerate thinks everybody is as disgusting as he is
Kill yourself.

>>22599434
>I like the smell of my own farts
Whatever, faggot.

>>22592823
It blows my mind people like you exist who are unironically too stupid to understand something as basic bitch as Nietzche.

He's not referring to any and every injury, obviously. It's a question of overcoming fatal encounters.

>>22592767
Yeah but also yeah nah

>>22592767
Not even resistance training works that way, nor does utmost sybaritic leisure. What makes us stronger is in the details, as will is.

>>22594162
women moment

>>22592792
clearly you've never actually read Nietzsche

>>22597532
Yeah, if you can't have sex without paying a prostitute, you have failed as a man. If you can have sex without it, but still choose to do it, you are recklessly degenerate.

>>22592767
Not really. There could be experiences that only bring suffering and don’t teach anything new. When a 1000 pound guy gains 100 more did he get stronger mentally or physically?

>>22592767
Meh. This one's better.

>>22593401
You might appreciate this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wPewUiUhL8

>>22601148
excerpt picrel

>>22600458
>if you can't have sex without paying a prostitute, you have failed as a man
Why is a man being measured by whether he sticks his member in a woman's hole? Do you realize how many genius men you're throwing under the bus when you spew such mediocre standards of manhood around? For most geniuses, women are a degrading experience.

>>22592767
And what did he mean to kill? It's just vague.

This board's demographics is clearly no longer Northern European by majority.

>>22600763
Pic rel is the best quote ever though

>>22601307
never was

>>22601373
It was certainly closer during the first few years. The content of the board between now and then speaks for itself on the matter.

>>22600458
>if you can't have sex without paying a prostitute, you have failed as a man
"And just look at these men: their eye saith it—they know nothing better on earth than to lie with a woman.
Filth is at the bottom of their souls; and alas! if their filth hath still spirit in it!
Would that ye were perfect—at least as animals! But to animals belongeth innocence.
Do I counsel you to slay your instincts? I counsel you to innocence in your instincts.
Do I counsel you to chastity? Chastity is a virtue with some, but with many almost a vice"

>>22601392
>The content of the board between now and then speaks for itself on the matter.

The moderation in this board is non-existent.

>>22592823
The sentiment is true but the wording he uses falls short of examination.

>>22601285
It's because anon like so many people has been mentally poisoned by Christianity and completely obsesses over sex while simultaneously being appalled by it. It's a really humorous state of being, especially if you're white, because your ancestors would undoubtedly laugh in your face to see such behavior.

t. the son of viking raider chads

>>22594230
This guy gets it
>>22596337
>>22594173
But you guys do raise interesting points, despite my admitted distaste for Nietzsche.
Still, I kind of agree with pic related. And G.K. Chesterton also had a good way of putting it:
> “This, incidentally, is almost the whole weakness of Nietzsche, whom some are representing as a bold and strong thinker. No one will deny that he was a poetical and suggestive thinker; but he was quite the reverse of strong. He was not at all bold. He never put his own meaning before himself in bald abstract words: as did Aristotle and Calvin, and even Karl Marx, the hard, fearless men of thought. Nietzsche always escaped a question by a physical metaphor, like a cheery minor poet. He said, "beyond good and evil," because he had not the courage to say, "more good than good and evil," or, "more evil than good and evil." Had he faced his thought without metaphors, he would have seen that it was nonsense. So, when he describes his hero, he does not dare to say, "the purer man," or "the happier man," or "the sadder man," for all these are ideas; and ideas are alarming. He says "the upper man," or "over man," a physical metaphor from acrobats or alpine climbers. Nietzsche is truly a very timid thinker. He does not really know in the least what sort of man he wants evolution to produce. And if he does not know, certainly the ordinary evolutionists, who talk about things being "higher," do not know either. Then again, some people fall back on sheer submission and sitting still. Nature is going to do something some day; nobody knows what, and nobody knows when. We have no reason for acting, and no reason for not acting. If anything happens it is right: if anything is prevented it was wrong. Again, some people try to anticipate nature by doing something, by doing anything. Because we may possibly grow wings they cut off their legs. Yet nature may be trying to make them centipedes for all they know.”

>>22594694
Kek. Well put

>>22595237
This.
I don't agree with most of Nietzsche's ideas, but I don't think there's much wrong with this particular quote

>>22601748
>his opinion of women, like every man's, is an objectification of his emotion towards them, which is obviously one of fear. "Forget not thy whip"
>Bertrand Russel
>Still, I kind of agree with pic related.

The chapter on women in Zarathustra is ought to be attentively read in parallel with the chapter on warriors, the chapter on friends and the chapter on marriage.
Something that dumb faggots are unable to.

So, for starters.
- To the warriors, Zarathustra says that he shall not spare them, because he loves them from his heart. "The whip" means the same thing - suffering is necessary for growth.
- To the women, Zarathustra says that man's happiness is "I will" and women's happiness is "He wills". Yet, to the warrior he say's that his happiness is "Thou shalt". Which is the same as "He wills". Because warrior is not "the saint of knowledge", i.e. not man enough. Only Superman (the Child that is yet to be born) is.
- To the women, Zarathustra says that they will hate someone who cannot draw them close enough. Yet, that is Zarathustra's definition of friendship ("One ought still to honour the enemy in one’s friend. Canst thou go nigh unto thy friend, and not go over to him?")
- And while Zarathustra reproaches women for not being able into friendship, it turns out with a plot-twist that modern men cannot either. Only Superman will be properly able to.
-etc.

In other words, your pic is shit. And if you agree with it, you are as much of a dumb illiterate faggot as Russel.

>>22601748
>>Nietzsche always escaped a question by a physical metaphor, like a cheery minor poet.
And faggots cannot into biblical scholarship and anagogical reading.

>>He said, "beyond good and evil," because he had not the courage to say, "more good than good and evil," or, "more evil than good and evil."
No shit, cretin. The point of "beyond good and evil" is the literal breakage of these terms. Yet some misbegotten creature insists on intentionalist vocabulary.

>>So, when he describes his hero, he does not dare to say, "the purer man," or "the happier man," or "the sadder man," for all these are ideas; and ideas are alarming.
for all these words are empty. Dumbfuck.

>> He says "the upper man," or "over man," a physical metaphor from acrobats or alpine climbers. Nietzsche is truly a very timid thinker. He does not really know in the least what sort of man he wants evolution to produce.
Which Nietzsche himself says.

"Ah, there are so many things betwixt heaven and earth of which only the poets have dreamed!
And especially above the heavens: for all Gods are poet-symbolisations, poet-sophistications!
Verily, ever are we drawn aloft—that is, to the realm of the clouds: on these do we set our gaudy puppets, and then call them Gods and Supermen:—
Are not they light enough for those chairs!—all these Gods and Supermen?—
Ah, how I am weary of all the inadequate that is insisted on as actual! Ah, how I am weary of the poets!"

But that would require actually attentively reading the text, no? Which these fucking snobs are incapable of doing.

>And if he does not know, certainly the ordinary evolutionists, who talk about things being "higher," do not know either.
Because the point is not to reach some definite "higher", the point is to upkeep the momentum of the meat-grinder, where you are but a pawn that shall eventually die in the process.

"Good and evil, and rich and poor, and high and low, and all names of values: weapons shall they be, and sounding signs, that life must again and again surpass itself!
Aloft will it build itself with columns and stairs—life itself: into remote distances would it gaze, and out towards blissful beauties—therefore doth it require elevation!
And because it requireth elevation, therefore doth it require steps, and variance of steps and climbers! To rise striveth life, and in rising to surpass itself."

"A light hath dawned upon me: I need companions—living ones; not dead companions and corpses, which I carry with me where I will.
But I need living companions, who will follow me because they want to follow themselves—and to the place where I will."

>Then again, some people fall back on sheer submission and sitting still.
And the chapter on the preachers of death, and the chapter on the rabble discuss that topic, too. Yet the faggot thinks, he is saying something of worth.

"But I asked once, and suffocated almost with my question: What? is the rabble also necessary for life?"

>>22601748
>And G.K. Chesterton also had a good way of putting it
>>Nietzsche always escaped a question by a physical metaphor, like a cheery minor poet.
" What is offensive in the presentation. - This artist offends me in the way he presents his ideas, his very good ideas: so broad and emphatic, and with such crude artifices of persuasion, as if he were speaking to a mob. Whenever we devote some time to his art, it is soon as if we were 'in bad company'. "

>>22592823
People see other people who had hardship in their youth but succeeded, and then conclude that this happens for everybody. Truth is that most people who had a garbage youth wont amount to much, or are at least just hindered by their youth, not really "hardened" by it.

>>22602001
>People see other people who had hardship in their youth but succeeded,
People see other people, raised in a 'safe space' environment, to be hysterical wimps incapable of doing anything.

>>22602018
I don't understand the point of this image. Trauma is obviously subjective; it has to do with your neurochemistry, or your inner plumbing, which has a personal set of memories, values, physiological states, and instincts, which are navigating along an individual path and continuously evolving. What can be a commonplace occurrence to most can definitely be triggering and traumatizing to a person who just so happens to be sensitive or vulnerable in a particular manner.

>>22602053
>Trauma is obviously subjective; it has to do with your neurochemistry
Is the brain not part of your environment?

>What can be a commonplace occurrence to most can definitely be triggering and traumatizing to a person who just so happens to be sensitive
Yet if you do not expose people to stressors, they'll definitely proclaim even a minor sneeze extremely stressful.
Just like constantly staying in a completely microbe-free decontaminated environment will turn your immune system weak.

>>22602087
>Is the brain not part of your environment?
No. It's part of you, and it constructs your subjective experience, which is where personally symbolic objects arousing fear, embarrassment, and other uncomfortable emotions exist.

My problem with modern therapy is not in its definition of trauma as subjective but in its treatment of painful experiences as fundamentally bad. There's nothing actually wrong with anger, fear, envy, humiliation, or any of these so-called "negative" emotions. They make the world go round, they're a necessary part of evolution (especially for mammals).

>Just like constantly staying in a completely microbe-free decontaminated environment will turn your immune system weak.
I agree. Regarding trauma as subjective is not the problem, it's regarding trauma as evil that is. Modern therapy isn't beyond good and evil enough.

>>22601148
>>22601258
Same poster. Not to forget that buddhism also pins 'suffering' as its entry point (samsara, four noble truths etc etc.)

Less in the physical sense, more of the mental sense. Traumatic and stressful experiences harden your mind to better adapt to them. Take the Navy Seal entrance exam for example. Constant stress, screaming, breaking bodies down to a point of constant exhaustion, etc. some of the dudes who pass are skinny and normal looking, not muscular at all.

In my own experience I’m a believer as well. When I got coof for the first time two I became extremely paranoid about exercising. I went from exercising 4 times a week to not running or touching any of my work out stuff for 6 months. It sucked. I had to force myself to start working out again and it was terrifying. I had anxiety attacks every time I ran or lifted. It took 3 months for me to break out of that cycle. Now I’m back to my usual routine and I feel great for having gone through that process even though it sucked at the time.

>>22602107
If the brain constructs the subjective experience then it’s not a subjective experience because it would actually be an object in space creating the illusion of subjectivity.

>>22602736
That doesn't negate the subjectivity of the experience, it only means that the subject-object relationship is more nuanced than is readily assumed. When we say "subjective experience," we ought to mean / interpret it as "an individual's lived experience dependent on the body" or something to that effect.

It's simply wrong to assert that trauma does not have a personal / individual aspect to it. One child may witness his father beat his mother and feel angry at his father, while another child may be traumatized by it; it all depends on the psychological makeup of the child.

>>22603635
>One child may witness his father beat his mother and feel angry at his father, while another child may be traumatized by it; it all depends on the psychological makeup of the child.
That’s not subjective. It’s a material object (the brain) reacting to stimuli from other objects. You either conclude that subjectivity is a product of the brain, in which case subjectivity would be an object and not a subject, or you conclude that subjectivity is independent of the brain, making it impossible for subjectivity to be constructed by it.

>>22592823
>the great thing about apples is that they're long, yellow, and easily peeled

Profound.

>>22592767
Superman thinks so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgolGjhLe8E

>>22604430
Again,

>When we say "subjective experience," we ought to mean / interpret it as "an individual's lived experience dependent on the body" or something to that effect.

Any other notion is just batshit insanity — subjectivity relates to personal symbolism and that's it. A father's actions can symbolize all kinds of different things depending on the interpreter, and that's what we call subjectivity.

So, in other words, trauma is subjective; it relies on personal symbols, a certain interpretation of an event, to occur.

>>22592771
/thread

Be careful what you wish for

>>22592993
If this guy had a >>22593196 panic disorder from drug abuse, what do you think will change if he grieves and accepts total ‘ego death’? I mean how the fuck do you do that? Most what doesn’t kill tou makes you stronger posters are Unironically zoomers who haven’t been through life experiences. Just wait until you are 30

>>22601258
>>22601148

Corinthians are kino but I cannot listen to papist talk for an hour. Just read the fathers

>>22592767
He is a schizo retard. He is just a poet, not a philosopher to be taken seriously. Dumb people read him without understanding a word he is saying just because it makes them feel smart and powerful, when they are only making a fool of themselves.

>>22593138
>systematic, strong Christian responses to Nietzsche
Why does it have to be Christian? How about common sense at any point in history?

>>22593243
I didn't know about this book, but I am really, really interested. I am reading too many books now, but I will write it down. Feel free to post any other information you want about it.

i just wanna let you guys know that this thread has been super entertaining and almost thrilling for me to read. a lot of substantial argumentation as well as a good selection of banger nietzsche quotes to give context. very nice, anons. keep up the hard work

>>22593243
There is a big issue with this book

To a degree. It's self evident that strength is built through constant trials and struggles, there is such a thing as breaking though.

idk bro triping On fucking tree roots qmd somehow braking my collar bone didnt unlock any superpowers altho im still waiting maybe

>>22605797
>He is a schizo retard. He is just a poet, not a philosopher to be taken seriously. Dumb people read him
Yeah nah.

>>22593196
Sorry to hear that anon. Are you working on it actively to overcome it though?
It is true that one will never be the same, but it does not mean one cannot overcome it.
Although mine wasn't as strong as psychosis, 6 months ago I started to have panic attacks and anxiety disorder as well.
I have been trying to be more mindful since then, also exercising, socialising, avoiding drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and reduced caffeine, trying to eat healthy, and learning new hobbies.
I am not completely "recovered" per se, but now I also cannot imagine going back to the time where I did not have this traumatic experience. In any case it would surface in some other perhaps deadlier form. It is part of me and it gave me understanding.
Pain, suffering, and trauma transform you in a way. Not all injuries make us stronger, but like someone else quoted in the thread, some of them makes us more profound. Only by being wounded yourself you can understand and help others.
I also knew people who died from drug overdose. They had that which killed them. But it did not kill us. We are the survivors, for now. And while we live, we should try to make it liveable.
I recommended that you or anyone having panic or anxiety checks these links:
https://www.udemy.com/course/cbt4panic-cure-panic-anxiety-attacks-fast/
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Judson-Brewer/dp/0593330447
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMV5Kw1oasM

>>22607229
does caffeine elimination helps?

>>22607332
The thing is those things like caffeine and alcohol do not cause the panic or anxiety per se (except by being addicted to them) and as such cannot prevent it. But they make you more vulnerable to panic and anxiety by creating unhealthier body so you have one more thing to deal with, by creating addiction to themselves, and by mimicking the symptoms of anxiety, which adds fuel to the fire, since you think you have anxiety because of something else which at the end makes you more anxious anyway.
I do not think cutting off the caffeine al together is really needed, and taken in moderation can have its health benefits. Also if you drink a lot, cutting it off immediately will have its withdrawal symptoms which again you might confuse with some other physical or mental issue, which in turns makes you more anxious.
I would recommended reducing the total intake, and passing some days of a week without coffee for a month or so, and observing the changes within you to decide if it helps you personally.
For me, I think reducing it helped me, or made it easier to deal with anxiety, but I also like coffee, so I keep drinking one cup a day still.
But again, you can create make believes where you convince yourself that if you do this or do not do that, it will help you, which will help because you think so, but they do not in and of themselves help which can make you think that there is no cure, on the contrary, the cure is there always immediately available, and that is just changing the way your brain works which is not quite easy thing to do, and require practise to root out old habits and create new ones, but it is doable, and you can start doing that by practising mindfulness. Here is a free course to start with:
https://caring-mindfulness.thinkific.com

>>22592767
Royal We

>>22592767
>But I did eat breakfast this morning?

>>22607376
Back in 2019 when i broke up with my first long term gf i was drinking 9-10 espressos per day and couldn't even drive in the freeway without panic attacks, the next day i decided to quit cold tukrey for a whole month.

4 years later to now I broke up with the new gf and the cycle kinda repeats because i WFH and i'm alone and the thoughts are killing me. I went for a cofee with a friend this morning but i feel wosrse than before for some reason. Nowadays i drink 4-5 espressos per day. I can't quit this time, im not stronger than i was 4 years ago and it's fucked up. I'll try reduce.

You are right tho, if the coffee raises your heart rate and blood pressure you are more inclined to get an attack. Also my agoraphobia is back for some reason. Hope i get better

>>22607469
Yes coffee raises your heart rate and blood pressure which makes you think there is something wrong with you which spirals into anxiety and eventually panic attack. Just realise that it is coffee doing its things and you are actually fine, and there is no reason to panic, try to let the effects of coffee wash over you.
Also, next time you drink a cup of coffee, try to be more mindful about it. See what you are trying to accomplish by drinking it, see how it is actually completely useless and even detrimental. You can still meet people and drink something else. Drinking coffee will not make your life better or bring back a girlfriend. It may make you feel good temporarily but then it will make you feel worse. Focus on yourself and the effects of the coffee while you are drinking. Keep this habit for a while, see if it helps.

>>22593195
I don't think that's true either. People who sufferd immensly don't become more profound. They wallow in self pity and the suffering becomes their defining trait. Nothing exists outside of the pain they suffered.

>>22605251
Are Batman and Superman, nietzschean?

This is justice for me

mwahahaha

>>22594908
underrated

>>22607166
Not sure what you are trying to say.

>>22592767
Not entirely. There are experiences that are hard in a way that teaches lessons which make us better at dealing with the real world (put hand on hot thing, get burned, stay away from hot things in future) and then there are experiences that make us worse at engaging with the whole of reality due to hyper fixation on certain parts (soldiers that fight in gorilla wars having a hard time trusting civilians back home enough to make meaningful healthy relationships because they couldn't trust anyone for a 6 month period or else for fear of death). I would also add that dying when it is your time also makes you stronger.

>>22605759
>I mean how the fuck do you do that?
Years of quality therapy and changes to one's lifestyle habits and diet. At some point, he'll have a big cry of acceptance of himself, because what fuels trauma is the underlying rejection of the self.

>Just wait until you are 30
I'm 35.

>>22592767
No. I had a terrible childhood and teens, now I'm 28 and I'm a weak coward. Outwardly I'm fully functioning - I work out and I'm in shape, I have a job, I have hobbies and interests. I can gather some confidence after not leaving my room for a month, but the moment I go leave the house, all of it crumbles like a wet cookie in a steaming cup of tea. Then I have to stay in my room for another month to go back to baseline.
So fuck this gay aphorism

>>22595237
>>22607395
These are accurate.

>>22592792
>>22592823
>>22593196
>>22593859
>>22607811
Why are modern men such fucking pussies?

>>22592767
Well, I think it depends on the way you see what "didn't kill" you. You can always, ALWAYS learn something from such experiences, and those lesson stick. But if you close yourself up in a bubble because of that experience, or you just see at the bad side of it, you're never gonna get stronger. It all depends on your view.

>>22607891
I guess objectively the question could be reframed as something like "Is what you learn from the experience (so long as you don't die from it) always greater than what you lost in the experience, given that you take away the maximum insight to be gleaned from it?" or something like that. Not nearly as sexy and still I would say not always.

>>22607861
I still don't see why affirming life makes you strong and not affirming it makes you weak. The strong are those who subject others (weak) to their will. Both can be strong

>>22608232
>why is the person who can kill me without blinking an eye stronger than me? I'm totally just as strong bros

>>22592767
if this was true then PTSD would not result in any degree cognitive impairment (which it does). also phobias from bad experiences can be limiting

>>22608543
The guys who claim it are brutal. But I'm a life denier, I like guns, and I'd blow off half the head of any life-affirming ape without hesitation

>>22592767
I came across this phrase in Ecce Homo I believe, and in context it makes sense. He's talking about himself and how adversity somehow pushed him and gave him a reason to be, and that whole yadda yadda about humans being pack animals and such. Also because in a sense if you encounter a thing that can't defeat you, you won, regardless of how battered you end up being.
It's really that simple, but yeah in isolation that phrase is a bit stupid.

itt: weak willed beta males failing as per usual to refute Nietzsche
I would also like to add that therapy where you go and talk about your "traumas" to a stranger like a pathetic loser is basically a huge psyop to make you weak

>>22608743
PTSD is fabricated bullshit just like ADHD

>>22608908
Tell that to veterans waking up in the middle of the night screaming or shitting their pants from a loud noise

>>22608933
All old people shit their pants and everyone has nightmares. The real problem is, in the case of an American Sniper type, is that such an individual isn't following his/her will to power as the Overman intended. That person wants to kill people, as in truly enjoys taking another's life, but society and morality holds them back and makes them guilty and neurotic.

"I believe what doesn't kill you, simply makes you.... stanger"
Neetch was a weird guy I guess

>>22609164
>"Wanna know how I got this mustache?"
What did he mean by this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6QNa13J7nM

>>22592767 I don't know. My life's alright.

>>22609291
kek, this was perfect anon