/lit/ - Literature

Plato!

>>22583591
>>22586281
>>22585165
>>22583667
>>22586306
>>22584017
>>22585284
>>22585814
>>22581733
>>22583440
>>22585749


>>22585495
>>22585736

>>22583559
>>22584298
>>22585277
>>22580658

Where the fuck is everyone?!

>>22586243
>>22586501
>>22587149
No one here reads + there's a bit of a Plato fatigue because of that one thread.
Anyway. I am not sure what you are confused about. If the forms are not "psychological" and have "a true existence as a 'thing in themselves'" in a "higher realm", as you say they do, where exactly is the contradiction? Let's say that there is a Form of Gold. The Form of Gold includes the entire character of gold. This Form of Gold is what allows all gold in the world to be what it is, and to have the properties that it has. Some people know more about the Form of Gold than others do, because they have studied gold in order to discover more about it. Therefore...?
I don't know. It seems to me like you draw a distinction between human knowledge and objective existence, but then you go and say "but if human knowledge can be flawed, how can objective existence be true?" Which seems like a strange question to ask.

>>22586243
why should the existence of niggers from the Sub-Saharan jungle make it unreasonable to believe in the "severed" existence of the Forms? There are philosophers who are able to "see" the Forms, and then there are also dark skinned fellas. I see no mystery here, only retarded Platonists and even more retarded POC.

Frege's Gedanken are, unlike Platonic Forms, propositionally structured, and there are true ones as well as false ones. For Plato, the Forms are true things, which are "more true" than ordinary things, with certain Forms being the truest etc, but there truth is very unlike the truth of true senteces.

Nigger.

>>22587530
*their truth
nig

>>22586243
>"re-" reading Plato
>actually, I was already over Plato and his metaphysics, but this smart German logician who never wrote about essences, but whom I have totally read, sparked my interest in Plato again
>Frege convinced me to give old Plato a second chance
>proceeds to ask dumb question, confusing matters of epistemology with those of metaphysics proper.
sure. you are re-reading Plato after discovering your love for Frege.

((OP is not lying) <-> (OP is actually smart))

Too bad it's a biconditional.

>>22586243
There is no form of gold. Gold is a combination of forms with mathematical properties. If it has extension, can be quantified etc, it’s not a pure form. This is why Socrates always uses beauty, the good and the just as examples of forms. Of course Plato isn’t always consistent on this but you’re supposed to be able to figure it out yourself. Basic stuff really, how can you have read Kant and Plato multiple times and not understand this?

>>22586243
Plato got converted to Pythagoeanism after his mentor, who told him not to write things down because it makes you a retard, got killed for being smarter than everyone else
Pythagoras got taught geometry on his travels and made it into a mystery cult. Everything Plato says about the forms is universalized geometry
And stay away from beans

>>22587599
>read Kant and Plato multiple times and not understand this?
I think that OP has a surprise for us

>>22586243
Plato is even more wacky and schizophrenic than you think. He would say the jungle savage knows that gold has those properties fro the time before his soul was born when he existed at one with the Forms of Good and that he ony needs to try very hard at remembering that fact in order to know it. Thinka bout it. If the soul were immortal that means the soul is keen to all knowledge of the universe. He is very bizarre and it is best not to take him seriously.

>>22586243
>The jungle man will see 'shiny' and 'heavy', but will not identify the essence as including conductiviity as he doesnt know it exists.
I think you're just confused. One can easily assume Plato would say the jungle man lacks the knowledge of the form of gold that modern man has, but more interesting is that perhaps Forms oppose deconstructive scientific knowledge, which seems to be suggested in the Meno. So both have the equivalent perception of what gold really is.

>>22589238
What a genuine midwit. Btw your description of recollection isn't even accurate to what Plato says.

>>22587530
true because in practice, an african has yet seen gold so this cannot be proven already

>>22586243
Try having a look at the Sophist.

>>22587551
>sure. you are re-reading Plato after discovering your love for Frege.
I don't understand what's confusing about it. If people describe Frege as a "mathematical Platonist", but they don't understand what Platonism is, surely they'd want to go back to the original.

>>22591617
what im confused about is that plato affirms that through complete knowledge of the form, we can attain complete knowledge of the object.
But, as i demonstrated, its impossible to be sure of your complete knowledge because like the jungle man, you cannot grasp EVERY attribute unless via empirical experimentation. Perfect knowledge appears like a mirage, never really attainable as perfect knowledge of the object is likely never certain.

>>22593307
I have no answer but this interests me, is this from Phaedo alone? Or are you referencing multiple works on this particular topic?

>>22589309
He believed at the least that mathematical facts were deciphered through recollection so I am not sure if he would’ve thought rote facts would be as well. The idea of justice/ beauty being innate I can get but the other stuff I dunno.

>>22593307
>plato affirms that through complete knowledge of the form, we can attain complete knowledge of the object.
Maybe then nobody yet has absolute knowledge of anything and we're only making use of whatever we already know, and it makes us think we know enough. I mean Plato could be right but did he say it's achievable?

>>22587599
What are the forms that gold is a combination of? Or better, what are the forms that carbon is a combination of?

>>22593373
“Carbon” is a purely mathematical, material construct. Not a form. The forms do not come from sensible reality, which is where physics derives its models.