/lit/ - Literature

It should have died with Tolkien. I hope all his copycat followers starve in the gutter like schweinhunden.

>>22577043
Let it die

>>22577043
Fantasy will also be shit as long as it’s written by beta males, nepotistic Jews and tumblr whores with no worldliness or culture.
The reason Tolkien was good was because he spent his life studying history, mythology, religion, language and literature and had endured the hardships of two world wars.

>>22577043
Most of its problems come out of a misguided focus on setting at the expense of themes and ideas. When people write fantasy / sci-fi exclusively for the sake of writing fantasy / sci-fi, without actually *saying* anything, you get trash.

>>22577043
It peaked a hundred years ago. Forget about it.

>>22577043
No it isn't lol. Fantasy is a colossal genre and it is getting more popular instead of less.

>>22577043
Something cool like Dragon Eating Man, God Eater, Flame Eating Alchemist, Dark Devourer, Darkness Hunger, or even Elf Eater sounds kinda cool like he goes around eating elves to increase his lifespan, and eventually, he eats so many elves, that he transcends into a higher form of existence that just exists to harass elves. Eventually, the ancient elven gods find out and come back to kill the guy, but then he eats them and becomes even stronger and gets even more lifespan, eventually, he eats so many ancient elves that he transcends again and becomes so powerful that he creates his own universes full of elves (and small amounts of humans that he makes the superiors and much better than the elves) that he waits billions of years to mature so that he can eat them. But he eventually becomes lazy and underestimates the elves too much, and that's when a hero rises from the elves, The Great Human Eater. The great human eater eats all the humans that have pressed the elves for billions of years and in just 10 years, goes from a mortal to an unbeatable god, and then he challenges the Elf Eater, but because the Elf Eater is the protagonist and he has plot armor, The Human Eater loses and the story is over because the Elf Eater is unbeatable and super strong.

>>22577043
>How would this board improve the genre?
Add more milfs, cougars and less old men with beards

>>22577043
By telling meaningful and conclusive stories in 1 book with 800 pages at most. I think the main reason why I don't give a fuck about fantasy anymore is because everything is planned as a multi volume series with these epic stakes and world building spanning over thousands of pages to ultimately tell nothing of value. I'd love to read more fantasy that was rooted in the style of legends, myths and fairy tales.

>>22577744
good point
>>22577698
also a good point
>>22577314
low iq point

>>22577043
Sabia is looking fresh.

>>22577043
Less Tolkiens copycats
Less ASOIAF copycats
Less series of 3+ books
Less use of clichés
More experimental stuff
More stuff based on settings other than medieval Europe
More translations of foreign fantasy

>>22577757
Shut it midwit

Basically all genre fiction is at the end of its day, and rapidly in decline as soon as the last old (usually gen x) timers die out. Fantasy, SF, mystery, thriller, horror writing all going the same way as the rest of the modern west: stark and rapid decline.

But at least we enjoy all the fruits of the long 20th c.

It will fall into obscurity within the next century, become mythology, and repeat.

>>22577043
Here are some of my suggestions, though they need not all be applied at once:

1: Try to get away from having so many Tolkien and Martin influences. Be inventive.

2: Perhaps A Song of Fire and Ice is a better model of how to handle the supernatural, compared to The Lord of the Rings.

3: Draw more comparisons with real world historical events, such as what George R. R. Martin did for A Song of Fire and Ice.

4: Incorporate more non-Western mythological themes.

5: Include more references to Greco-Roman mythology.

6: Diminish influences from Celso-Germanic mythologies, which oversaturate the genre. Fantasy does not need to be characterized by those cultures, alone.

7: Aspiring fantasy writers should read more of real world history and geography to mine for their inspirations, rather than more fantasy books. That way, new perspectives are bound to emerge, and things won't be so derivative of Tolkien and/or Martin.

>>22577981
That's not Sabia...

Harry Potter and Twilight were the tolling bells of death.

The only thing worse was ASOFAI in the form of that TV show.

Ah, and there's also The Rings of Power. What a world we live in. Was humanity actually a mistake? Perhaps it was.

In either case, I've highlighted four FOUNDATIONAL series.

Harry Potter, being for children and exploring a "magical school." It is difficult to think of a better concept than that as a children's book series, especially the way it was written from HP being a young kid, to an adult. It covers so much ground that it basically wiped the entire field of "children's fantasy" with a smug, sickening smile.

On top of that, Twilight existed. I don't know much about it, but I hear the writing itself was bad, and it essentially pointed to a type of fantasy mixed with romance, in such a configuration as to render unto Caesar his own decapitated head. Nothing could have scarred the concept of literature more than this.

But it's not so much that it existed. It was that it was so popular.

ASOFAI is as so far as I know, an absolutely fine book series of THAT type of fantasy, such as the Sword of Truth series or Wheel of Time. However, now that this "style" of long fantasy series has been done, where are we to go from here? Just another series of fantasy with a big bag of lore and world building? I don't think the future lies in that direction.

But the ultimate knife in the back are indeed those TV shows and movies that take a book and turn it live action. Of course we all can enjoy LOTR live-action movie, for it was the first truly amazing take on it, outside of those adorable cartoon movies that came out awhile back.

But after that, it was just copycats and outright fraudulent usage of copyrights and names. At this point, there is a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to fantasy.

The chronology of real life events that involve these books, including the existence of cancel culture, like how Rowling had so many fans, but with a few misplaced opinions, lost nearly everything, or how ASOFAI turned itself into a TV show .... only to be humiliated by a shit ending. Tsk. The bell is tolling at each hour, and it is far worse than the 11th hour. It is already 1 AM and the witching hour will soon begin.

Who is ready for that, hmm?

>>22577245
This, world building faggotry is an absolute plague

>>22577043
Actually have competent who matured past the age of 14 write for it, pretty much all modern "adult" fantasy books feel like YA novels that were just scared to admit they were YA.

>>22578904
In your opinion, what are some of the main tell-tale signs that a fantasy book is steering towards the YA direction, if not consumed by Young Adult fiction completely?

>>22578895
>outright fraudulent usage of copyrights and names
That's the good part. I should be able to use whatever words and names I want, copyright be damned.

>>22578916

I actually do agree with you 100%, to be quite honest.

However, the world we live in has somehow made it so that the people who use the name "Lord of the Rings" are the worst people in existence, and somehow, YOU, one of the greatest, cannot.

I curse them for this, and ask you for only one thing: Write something beautiful, and may it be an utter success.

>>22577744
>>22577757
>>22578895
>>22578896
World building could be indeed effective if done compellingly, but so many people are ambitious hot-shots that plan too far in advance to make their initial story into a series, even having their first entry not have a conclusive ending on its own merit. I think those wanting to write sequels could if they want to, and the circumstances of their world justify it, but they should take a page from Star Wars, and write the first book as a self-contained story with its own ending, not relying upon the possibility of sequels. The Death Star blew up and the Rebel Alliance won its most important victory up to that point. If the Star Wars series did not continue on past that point, that ending alone is satisfying. The heroes were even granted awards at the very end. Not every series-spawning first entry should have a cliffhanger ending. For the most part, a worthy series has many or all self-contained stories.

>worldbuilding

>With the Black Company I took advice from Fritz Leiber who was my mentor and who said “Don’t draw a map because if you draw a map, as soon as you start drawing the map, you start narrowing your possibilities”. As long as you don’t have a map you don’t have to conform to certain things. I have a vague map inside my head and I’ve seen many maps on the internet of what people thought the Black Company world might be like. They’re not too far off, but they’re not close either. It’s north and south with a pond in the middle.
>Glen Cook

How about that?

>>22579008
Currently, it seems that almost everyone feels like they need to have a map at all costs. That is a refreshing point of view, in comparison.

>>22577991
>More stuff based on settings other than medieval Europe

This but also the opposite, settings that go really hard into it.

We need to reject the middle ground of "modern day but vaguely historical" regardless of what culture it draws from that plagues the genre.

>>22577043
People say to be less cliche. But that's silly. People come to the same conclusions independently. There is only so many ways you can re-imagine society, and still make the world fascinating to read. Tolkien didn't create the tropes he used. He just compiled a bunch of ideas from people who came before him.

People say to study different cultures. Well guess what? There are only so many differences between cultures. Ultimately, the differences won't amount to much. Not enough to make your book stand out as super unique. It will just be another lame fantasy with a different gimmick.

GRRM really hit to the heart of it, when he quoted Faulkner stating: “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”
Write a character with an interesting internal conflict, and then you can dress it up however you like in whatever fantasy elements you want.

>>22579052
>>22577991
More medieval Europe, but from regions and periods that are not covered much by the pop culture.

>>22577991
>>22579052
>>22579077
The Witcher is inspired by Slavic mythology, which is a good idea, and it is still a fresh direction for aspiring writers to move towards. Eastern Europe should be utilized more for ideas.

>>22579238
Witcher is a mix of European mythology and history, not really exclusive to Slavic.
But I agree, Eastern Europe could be used more.

I'm honestly sick of fantasy books that are like 1500+ pages each with around 5000-10000 pages to get through the whole series. It's always empty, shallow, and nothing to say about anything. Lord of the Rings was like 1200 pages and I thought it was a bit too long; it could've been trimmed down 150 pages, and yet Tolkien's works are the best fantasy is going to be.
I wish we could go back to the old model and get a self contained 300-400 page book like The Princess Bride, with subtle themes and such. Maybe some interesting mythology that hasn't been done in a long time; an anon mentioned Greco-Roman, which would be very intriguing with the right person writing it, who has studied it intensely.

Then again, the people writing fantasy today in the mediums of the arts are faggots, queers, athiests, soicucks, and in general, people who don't give a single shit about the world other than consooming Marvel movies. Fantasy is pretty much dead, other than self contained stuff and/or short stories, which is far more interesting to read anyway.

>>22577043
More R.Scott Baker
Less basedboys and women writers

Retvrn to short stories and stand-alone novels.
No more novelizations of d&d campaigns
Break down the walls of the medieval fantasy ghetto. More cross-"genre" stuff.
DESU, STOP trying to insert old mythology into your work. It's been done many times. Come up with something new instead. Sci fi guys have fantasy writers beat here because they at least come up with original aliens.
Stories about characters who can easily beat 5 or 10 other guys in a fight bore me to hell. Again, sci fi doesn't usually have this problem.
Biggest problem with fantasy right now is that it's completely dominated by jewish women writing romance novels. I don't know how that can be solved. Where are all the chud fantasy writers?

>>22579634
Agreed. Fantasy needs to start saying stuff instead of 'whot if 1980s story, but with women, troons, and queers'.

>>22577043
i feel like the so true! meme slots in here

>>22577043
>Fantasy literature is dying out
Source?

>>22578878
its over...

>2023… I am forgotten

>>22579252
So many writers try to become the next Tolkien, but I think many of those long, long pages series are the results of Dungeons and Dragons' and The Elder Scrolls' popularities, independent of reading Tolkien's works. I know the movies make Tolkien accessible, but that's all most people ever get through.

>>22581007
It partly has its roots in the YA publishing scene, going back decades. Starting in the 80's you had stuff like the Belgariad and its follow-ups starting the 3+ book epic phenomenon. Although those books were very modestly sized by current standards.
The second thing was in the YA scene you would have series with 10+ to 20+ books. But these were more episodic, featuring a recurring cast of characters in mostly discreet adventures with little emphasis on what continuity they had if any. These were written with the understanding that their readership was in constant churn and age out while a new generation would come in.

Wheel of time was like a merging of the two. Except instead of the audience abandoning the series you would have people constantly dipping out and coming back to it over the years, ensuring a steady enough fanbase to maintain profitable, managing audience churn, and telling a serialized story.

Few if any, are trying to be the next Tolkien, they are trying to be the next Robert Jordan, and since we found him they are not trying to be the next Sanderson.

>>22579077
No. Less Medieval shit. That aesthetic is tired. More stuff from different periods and regions.

>>22577066
/thread

>>22579252
Hey, nice cat pic.

>>22580056
What do you mean?
>>22581089
Nah, I want early medieval aesthetics. Although this is more for vidya, which often has late medieval looks.
Love how Bannerlord looks, just need more fantasy.

>>22577681
I'm pretty sure that's not an improvement, it's just a vore fetish.

there any actual magic in these books? to my knowledge all sorts of people go insane for reading them. for a genre where the magic system is a big deal it would be weird if the magic wasn't real...

>>22581965
Okay, there’s a board for you >>>/v/

>>22581965
Proper early medieval aesthetics, not including the rather poor job the Vikings series does with their inaccuracies, are vastly underrated. Almost every medieval fantasy series tries to look like it's past the 1200s, or so, at least.

>>22582615
Indeed, I want stuff from 500 to 1000 AD.

All it would take is moving away from political intrigue fantasy and bloated word counts.

>>22577043
i dont have it to hand but there is a commonly posted picture going round saying it's due to publishers

the problem is publishers dont want to take a risk
they could publish a fantasy story that was non generic but it risks alienating potential readers
publishers think people want kights, elves, dwarves, and orks
and the reason is thats what people lap up

its also easier for the reader to understand
if its dwarves vs orcs you know going in its mountain dwelling expert blacksmiths vs warlike primitive tribal savage who live to fight
if is thrakaras vs eldertides, you have no idea what to expect going in

>>22583065
The market shrunk immensely since the early 90s and publishers have tended more and more towards familiar series designed for binge consumption. The majority of consumers go for that kind of epic series and they're the cash cows that buy entire catalogs every month. The more lauded and awarded books and authors don't sell all that well in comparison and don't have the pull of series to keep people engaged.

It's pretty dire with how much the market shrunk and how the anthology/journal market has pretty much disappeared.

>>22577043
Hard to say. Any “savior of the genre” series would immediately have its new archetypes studied, broken down into formula and then copied poorly a hundred times over.

>>22577245
> muh agitprop fetish

>>22577991
>More stuff based on settings other than medieval Europe
This is also disappointing because it feels so absurdly unimaginative. Reminds me of the isekai genre of anime. I’m both instances you literally have the WHOLE world and you choose to make the story exist in that would only take a slight bit more imaginative power to do but instead people want to do the same exact hint again and again, and not only that but the most unimaginative version of that same thing most of the time. It’s asinine

>>22578896
There is also a plague of writers who do so little in the way of worldbuilding that there is no internal consistency in their settings, which undermines the stories they want to tell in a variety of ways. Nobody seems to see it as the tool it is and use it appropriately.

>>22582961
Those are very interesting centuries. I would include the 300s and 400s, too, but they aren't exactly Medieval. 1000 through 1100 could also feel a bit different from typical Medieval stuff.

make it legal to write anything and protect the right to anonymous publishing, no one writes anything worth a single shit these days because everyone is terrified of being cancelled

>>22577043
Those are some big bazonga wongas ,in case you haven't observed

>>22587719
oh yeah, i hand't noticed! very nice

>>22577043
With AI booba. Works every time.

>>22581089
Let me guess you're a tranny that likes Landsknechts.

>>22577043
Recognising genres is for gay faggots. Just go write a good book.

>>22588364
WTH? /lit/ actually offers good advice?

>>22577043
Bring back the Sword & Sorcery genre, but done right (read: not intended for "modern audiences").

Here you go yer bastards

>>22589094
How exactly is sword and sorcery different from most of fantasy?

>>22588280
This excepts incredibly talanted but sexually inexperienced artists who can draw nothing but cum-inducingly titillating artworks out of his borderline manic sexual frustration instead of AI

>>22577043
Give Brandon Sanderson the book and let him fucking write anything. He's the last hope for the genre.

we have d&d
u dumb dumb

>>22577043
just give Japan the keys to all fantasy literature. They don't need to rip off Tolkien for the next 100 years.

>>22586679

This this this this.

You get a star! Two of them.

I grant you two stars from any galaxy outside the Milky Way. You will have these stars eternally. You have until the end of your life to choose them. They are yours. This is my first time offering a good post more than one star, so understand that what you said has an extremely high level of value. Thank you.

>>22577066
he also slurped the jews

>>22577245
Agreed. and it's also why prattchet is so fucking good. He experiments with characters and themes like technology or mortality.

>>22590341
wtf are you smoking? 90% of japanese fantasy these days is just rip-offs of video games that ripped-off D&D which ripped-off Tolkien.
If I have to endure another anime with a fucking "adventurer's guild" I'm gonna committ a mass sudoku!

>>22590420
>prattchet
>good
lmao

It wouldn’t help if some competent and smart writers wrote fantasy for a change. I mean, all you’ve got to do is look at guys like Rothfuss and Sanderson to understand why fantasy is bad.

Why aren’t there more Medieval scholars writing fantasy? Hell, why aren’t there more medieval scholars?

>>22590620
They cut out medieval history to make space for more holocaust units.

>>22590620
Rothfuss was an odd case where it looked like he was playing with how stale the genre was and had something fresh to do with it, achieved the apogee of cringe instead, then didn't write anything at all for a dozen years and ran off after failing to honor a $700,000 promise.

>>22590631
My Alma Mater still has a medieval studies program that focuses on actual medieval literature and it’s not even particularly well-reputed.

>>22590648
I was just being a bit nasty. I don’t really think physiognomy is enough to suggest that a writer can’t be a good writer. Still, it is somewhat suggestive. In general, fantasy has built for itself this reputation of a game played by tabletop D&D neck beards and ultra-nerds, but not the type of ultra-nerds that are actually gifted but the kind that are actually quite dumb and rather just have nerdy interests. Rothfuss and Sanderson do give off this vibe that implies that they won’t provide what you’re looking for. And what’s weird about this to me is that there are so many people who really admire what Tolkien did and then hate fantasy since. Okay. If that’s the case, why doesn’t someone try the actual Tolkien formula? And I don’t mean aping Tolkien’s books but perhaps trying to be an actual linguist/medievalist and starting from there? There’s an author in Russia who was a noted medievalist/philologist who recently wrote a book which admittedly isn’t exactly fantasy but has fantastical elements and it’s received nothing but high praise. It’s really questionable whether he could’ve written it if he hadn’t been a scholar of medieval history/language first. And you might reply to my questioning “well, some people just want fun fantasy they shouldn’t have to be a professional medievalist to write a fun novel” and that’s true, but what if it’s a pre-requisite to write this particular type of novel? You would never expect someone without a law education to write an exegetical treatise on legislation in the American context. Why would you expect someone who is not a subject matter expert on medievalism or fantasy to write a top-tier medieval fantasy novel? If you want good fantasy, I say take it back from the tabletop D&D nerds.

>>22590720
>Okay. If that’s the case, why doesn’t someone try the actual Tolkien formula? And I don’t mean aping Tolkien’s books but perhaps trying to be an actual linguist/medievalist and starting from there?
I've tried this/trying to do this now, and i have a simple answer, it takes years to fully learn about and undersatnd a period of history, to learn the lanuages etc
I dont think a lot of authors want to spend the time on it, plus some people prefer the 'pop culture' version of things, eg vikings lots of people prefer pop culture vikings to historically accurate ones, and even become angry when people point out they are wrong

>>22579238
kek the witcher is inspired by Moorcock

>>22577043
It's all the same, I abandoned the genre years ago. Rarely do authors do anything that isn't elves and dwarves.

>>22577043
More Zelazny, less Martin
For real

>>22591312
Which isn't to say Martin is bad, but like Tolkien, he has inspired thousands of low IQ imitators who don't understand why AsoiaF worked (before he became the fat white Kenataro Miura, that is)

>>22590599
you and your dumb opinions can go to hell

>>22591230
Okay, but if that’s what it takes it’s what it takes. Right? Either you pursue it fully, or you don’t. And if you don’t you have to settle for less then. That’s just how things are maybe.

>>22591230
I think this is maybe where it’s important to point out that Tolkien was a linguist first, mythologist second, and historian only third.

>>22591408
you'll be so embarrassed when you're 25
if you can tell me with a straight face that Raising Steam is a good book i'll give you $5

>>22591230
I like this picture.

Stop letting diversity obsessed feminist women and their simps gatekeep publishing.

>>22590451
>adventurer's guild
I understand that Isekai is not your thing, but what's wrong with that?

>>22577245
>>22578896
>destroys you're argument

>>22589201

i want to write a story about a world where magik and fantasy creatures are slowly dying out and being replaced by the concept of science, the main character is an alcoholic former wizard who can still use magick in fits and spurts and in the end does one final spell that changes the world.

It would be like a eulogy for the fantasy genre

>>22578909
Unironically the covers and the title. If it has a title like "the princess's mage" or "The NOUN of ADJECTIVE" or looks like something from picrel (a random list I found googling YA fantasy) then I'm not even bothering to read the description. The only covers that I don't find cringe from picrel are The Thief and "Strange the Dreamer". If I were in a bookstore these would be the only ones that would catch my attention.

Whoever says "don't judge a book by its cover" is a pseud who desperately tries to shill his shit books

>>22590620
There's Harry Turtledove who had a PhD in Byzantine history. As expected, the entire Videssos cycle is essentially the Komnenos restoration doped on VGH.

>>22577043
Sanderson and his magic system hae been a disaster to fantasy. Now every retard wants to make his own SCIENTIFIC magic system to look smart. Also every fantasy book has to be part of a thousand book series that never finishes

>>22592994
Not him, but probably because it’s one of those “default” fantasy stuffs writers base their story around without questioning if its existence is really necessary in story, or if its existence even makes sense in its world in the first place.

>>22593312
Well, what are you waiting for? Get to writing!

>>22593312
>constant presence of loss and scarcity
nah thanks

give me a book gig writing fantasy slop D&D material

main character is a heterosexual white male fighter devoted to Pelor with a big tiddy elf waifu

supporting cast include gregarious masc bearmode dwarf and his not-gay femme hobbit buddy (causes seethe for queerbaiting)

>>22594965
no

>>22577043
Expel Brandon Sanderson.

Fantasy has never been respected by the wider literary consensus. In responses Fantasy creators and consumers have increasingly sequestered themselves into their own little cultural bubble, created their own rubrics and standards of quality.
The explosion of popularity in fantasy fiction is accompanied with an increase in critical insularity.
"If we have our own rules then we can decide what is good and what is bad".

And these rules inevitably take the form of pseudo-objective flowcharts that can be picked up largely intuitively from conversations within fandom, or from a short 5 minute YouTube video, and most importantly leave very little room for interpretation.
If anything I think an "anti-interpretation" sentiment is what runs through a lot of this, and is rooted in the mix of sense of inferiority and animosity toward "traditional" literary standards and criticism

Such attitudes are more or less explicit depending who you are speaking to, but I think the uptake of Hard Magic Systems, rather than the concept itself, is the perfect, unambiguous, example.
This is because the theory as laid out by Sanderson originally is a readymade checklist, a flow chart. Grab a book and run it through the machine and get your results instantly. No boring thinking required! DING DING DING, great news this book has HARD MAGIC.

Again, I don't think Hard Magic is good or bad, but it is a very short jump from here to assigning value and turning a potential approach to writing into a mere aptitude test. Which is something I have seen happen. It is very appealing, and ripe for abuse, by those can't into the figurative. Hyper-literalists who can't see the bunny or the duck, only a splotch of ink on paper.


Such people are only the extreme end of this overall trend. The flip side is the broader phenomenon of people with minor cred in a field carrying water for something retarded, like "Trained Chef On Why Spaghetti-O's Are Secretly Genius".

In the case of Fantasy the two tend to intermingle, but the result is the same; creating a safe distance between the Fantasy genre and anyone that might speak ill of your favourite book.

My fantasy literature of choice is strictly isekai harem litrpgs and I'm never disappointed.

More small scale, pulpy adventures which use the setting to explore ideas and themes.
More character work and better prose, taking some cues from the large literary world.
Less worldbuilding, they're all variations of Tolkien anyway

>>22597850
AI wrote this

>>22593329
>If it has a title like "the princess's mage" or "The NOUN of ADJECTIVE" or looks like something from picrel (a random list I found googling YA fantasy) then I'm not even bothering to read the description.
Or the <NUMBER> <NOUNS> of <NAME>

A new golden age of MLP fanfiction

>>22597895
Written, illustrated, and reviewed purely by AI
What an exciting future we’re heading to

The only work of fantasy to come out in the last 5 years I've actually liked was The Dragon, The Hero, And The Courier, which is drawn by a massive autist with a boner for obscure medieval stuff. Everything else either tries too hard to be serious and detailed and The Next Tolkien or tries too hard to parody popular tropes.

fantasy authors have become lazy, they stick to popular tropes as thats what sells
they are too influcenced by what is popular
you can tell the biggest influences are tolkien (a good influence but overdone and misunderstood) and dnd,
and now grrm after the sucess of game of thrones, and to a lesser extent sapkowski with the witcher

i think the last two may be a negative influence on the genre as you now seeing more authors who think fantasy has to be dark to be a sucess, and they do it in the laziest way "oh, this world is so dark it's full of rape and slavery, oh how dark"
but this is lazy there are other ways to do dark worlds without including stuff that is morrally uneceptable to 99% of people, it just comes across as edgy and cliche

what is worse though is the fantasy genre readers may think that fantasy must be dark, and plus with the success of the dnd game baldurs gate 3, they may now also think it needs to be full of weird and wacky sex in order to be succesful

fantasy has always had the problem of being the refuge of perverts and wierdos, other genres have this problem too. As other anons have pointed out no one takes fantasy seriously as a genre, and thats because many of the authors dont take it seriously. I posted this in another thread but there was a quote from a psycologist about the game of thrones books, "they were clearly written by a pedophile for pedophiles"

unfortunatly the plight of the fantasy genre is the problem we face in many areas, the product is aimed at the lowest common denominator

>>22597850
Mana is stored in tits.

>>22600359
>psycologist about the game of thrones books, "they were clearly written by a pedophile for pedophiles"
silly

>>22578896
If you don't like world building why read fantasy in the first place
As far as I'm concerned fantasy without the fluff isn't fantasy at all

>>22578909
Main character is a "student" of some kind. Or trainee/apprentice.

>>22600359
There's barely any pedophilia in ASOIAF, and none of the likeable characters engage in it or advocate for it.

>>22577245
>all stories have to be propaganda

>>22578974
>so many people are ambitious hot-shots that plan too far in advance to make their initial story into a series, even having their first entry not have a conclusive ending on its own merit.
Literally me

One problem with worldbuilding in the fantasy genre is continuing to try to create mythologies that you don't understand how much they are based on the fantasy world you are creating, often taking a lot from Tolkien, or trying to copy directly from religion into the real world, or with mystical references.

There are no philosophical issues present within the mythology itself, and sometimes it seems like it always has to be a mythology with magical elements that also has divine characteristics, or at any rate, that tries to look like a religion.

The cultural landscape of these worlds always remains arid.

This is given precisely by the Tolkenian imprint of the hobbit who dwells in the valley in the midst of nature relaxing while smoking pipe-weed.

>>22600479
I liked Black Company for interesting characters and writing style, not worldbuilding, which was not elaborate.

>>22600479
Absurd. Why not read lore wiki's all-day instead, when that is clearly the most efficient fluff delivery system?

>be me
>everything I write ends up being a character study
>I know, I'll try writing one of those high fantasy YA stories with a focus on worldbuilding
>create elaborate world with gods and all
>start outlining
>the whole thing turned into a character study about the interactions amongst the gods and humans
>try it again with urban fantasy
>come up with some ridiculous premise about ancient gods awakening and bringing ancient magic weapons to the world
>start outlining
>succeed in making the gods surface level
>the rest of it turns into a character study about a bunch of terrorists, rich people, politicians, and bureaucrats trying to negotiate with each other
Bro how the fuck do I write one of these novels where it's just worldbuilding and shit

>>22578974
I think there's an inherent problem with the concept of "world building" full stop. It puts the cart before the horse and seems to cater more to the writer's desire to exercise creativity than to tell a good story. Like when you draw maps of places that don't exist as a child and make up names of cities and mountain ranges and so forth.

>>22600513
All stories have to be stories. Drop the worldbuilding and what you have left in many modern fantasy book? What story does it tell? The secondary plain is empty, it's just word fluff without any message.

>>22577043
Finishing Winds

>>22603578
It's really easy. You don't resolve any of the world building in the first book. You just lay the groundwork. Drop a bunch of random names and nouns here and there. For example: Have a soldier call out "For the honor of Kerspelka!" during a battle. And then don't talk about it again for the whole book. Then, in the NEXT book, Kerspelka is addressed again. Only this time with more details. "Kerspelka was a kingdom, long dead now. But the blood of Kerspelka still runs in the veins of man". And then the soibois will clap, because you "foreshadowed" it. Despite the fact that you had no clue what Kerspelka was, when you were writing the first book. You only decided to bring it to light in the second book, because the plot demanded an old dead Kingdom, so you plucked the name from the first book to use.

Just drop a bunch of seeds like that at the beginning. And then as the story progresses, go back and pluck some names, and people will be fooled into thinking you built this huge world. Every sequel book should plant more seeds. Or cultivate the growth of olds seeds by watering them with more details.

>>22577043
disconnect fantasy from genre convention and make it about what you think about when you fantasize

>>22577043
I'm just writing my own story with the elements I like and no expectations to pander to the tastes of anyone but my own. It's been pretty fun so far.

>>22606539
Cool, will you post it somewhere?

>>22606574
I haven't given much thought on what to do with it once it's complete. At the rate I'm going, I don't see myself finishing the first draft until summer '24, and then I'm probably going to spend at least another six months editing it.
Actually, I don't even know what the protocol is. Let's say I feel confident in the final product. Do I just self-publish it through amazon? Would it even be feasible as a first-time author to hire an agent and have them pitch the manuscript to actual publishing houses?

>>22606646
No idea about self-publishing, but you might look into it. Just don't rush into it, I guess.