/lit/ - Literature

https://historicalchristian.faith

>>22524599
I don't know. Christians would have alot fewer problems if they punished adulterers, faggots, trannies, witches, sorcerers and blasphemers.

>>22524634
they did up until the 60's
it was literally illegal to be gay in many countries including the usa and the uk
boomers changed that

Try and familiarize yourself with some of the history of the Bible's composition. It will help a ton to keep track of this stuff.

Short answer: if you spend too much time in the Old Testament nothing makes any sense in the New Testament

Long answer:

The Jewish Bible is not exactly the Old Testament. The OT as we have it was edited by Jerome, who re-ordered the books and theologized the terminology. He moved things around a bit to make the OT a prophecy of Jesus. (way oversimplifying here but no choice)

The dominant mode of reading the OT became typology, following Augustine. In this way OT texts were all reduced to symbolic prophecies or expressions of Christianity. Hence the stories are deprived of their individual original meanings and unable to be anything but redundant expressions of Christian types.

Much later common people began reading the books, which had the effect of unleashing the Hebrew originals. People like William Shakespeare and William Blake were good enough at reading to see meanings closer to the Jewish originals peaking through their English bibles.

It also probably led to Protestantism (lots of people reading and noticing Hebrewisms that differed from Church teaching) and even Mormonism (Joseph Smith madly discovering cosmic polygamy in the tents of the Patriarchs) and plenty of other things. Wild idn't it? All from a book.

ripping ALL of this from Harold Bloom "Jesus and Yahweh" and "The American Religion" by the way. Go read him, he is fun.

>>22524667
JOSEPH SMITH
DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM

>>22524599
Most christians are larpers

>>22524667
(((Bloom)))

>>22524599
It makes them feel less good goy, but it doesn't make them less good goy.

>>22524634
Maybe in 3rd world countries, everywhere civilized would just finally have an excuse to put the lid on your whole enterprise.

>>22524651
Truly the greatest generation.

>also itt. people who just want white judaism

>>22524599
I mean, have you read it? there's literally a freaking story about how a guy built a giant ship with only two of each species. it is so ridiculous

>>22524599
Post full of falseflaggers.

OT and NT are the Word of God.
The understanding is both literal and metaphorical; several prophecies and actions are pointing to things in the future (e.g. Judah's blessing: https://www.forthowardcc.com/blog/post/blessing-judah--genesis-498-12-))
The bronze snake being a prefiguration of Christ's crucifixion, etc.

Basically everything historical has both meanings. The prophets often talk in poetry and metaphorical language also.
And the parts that are history, are literal. None of this "creation is metaphorical" nonsense, or similar ideas.

"throwing out" the OT takes out all sense from the Bible. Only unknowledgeable "believers" prefer doing so, out of being criticized and not being able to respond.

It's quite easy to attempt to warp Scripture and willfully misinterpret it to attack Christianity.

>>22524599
Also yes, commandments are from God.
The only changes are dietary, because God cleansed it all, and the change of covenant, since Christ fulfilled all of the covenants we failed and made another under Himself.
That's why circumcision is unnecessary now, it was a sign of an inward conversion of the heart, under the Abrahamic covenant. (A conversion which Israel quite often did not keep).

>>22524599
The Old Testament was the Covenant between God and Judaism that was rendered void by the coming of Jesus. By His death and resurrection it was nullified and a New Testament was established for the whole human race

>>22525062
No, Christ changed the covenant. The OT is not merely the covenant, and the commandments stand.

>>22525056
>And the parts that are history, are literal.
Where are the giants bones then? In genesis it says that there were giants before the story of Noe

>>22525182
It doesn't.

nephilim comes from the verb naphal, to fall.
Most interpretations are often misconstruing that as giants, demons, or the like.

>>22524599
That would be news to a lot of old Christian states and theologicians that devised laws based off the OT (death penalty for apostasy and witchcraft was in the laws of several medieval states and Aquinas himself argued that said laws were valid). And Christian states throughout history justified conquest using the OT much like Muslim states using Muhammad's conquests.
I remember a Christian zoophile (kobidobidog) justifying his animal raping by saying that the Old Testament was nullified. TBF that is the result of abrograting the OT entirely.
The Dawah crowd get a lot of things wrong, but they are right that most modern day Christian apologists are just secularized right-Enlightenment liberals (Burkean conservatives) masquerading as the champions of Christian tradition. Just look at the examples:
David Wood argues for the right to secular blasphemy,disregards the OT, and refuses to acknowledge Anne Frank will go to hell for not believing in Christ's divinity.
Inspiringphilosophy claims Christianity is feminist and anti-imperialist and argues against secularization because it leads to more right wing so called Christian nationalism.
Robert Spencer shitting on the OT and Muslims for banning pre-marital sex.
They all capitulate to the secular liberal democratic system and ideology that is dooming Christianity to extinction in the West in the name of fighting Islam.
https://twitter.com/Christcucks2/status/1691582849466384521
https://twitter.com/Christcucks2/status/1691663793292492843
https://twitter.com/Christcucks2/status/1702753852276031550

Take this with a grain of salt since I'm in the midst of being a culling Catholic or an Atheist, dont know what I am at the moment, all while not doing enough extensive research in theology Catholic, from what I noticed, do care about the OT that much. There's meaning to be taken like the 10 commandments, but it's rightfully overshadowed when the son/God teachings are explained in the NT. It just doesn't make sense to go back to the OT with the same reverence the NT has. Especially when considering that of all the branches of Christianity, Catholics have done the most research on theology with an understanding of real-world science in mind. So, the OT is mostly considered very nice fables or rl stuff that happened but told through very thick metaphors/emblishes. Catholics are just inherently focused on understanding the bibles in and outs to strengthen their faith even if they break it apart. OT has just been researched to death, to the point where its importance has become blurry

>>22524599
Ignoring the OT was one of the main points of protestantism

>>22525056
Thank you.

>>22524599
>why do Christians like to leave out the OT? The commends in there are from God,
because when they say 'god' they mean 'their opinion' and it makes it hard to make up stuff to form that opinion if they have to remember more than one stupid story to lend authority to their opinion

but.. it beats me. I think the ignorance is a proof that they don't really believe in anything. You'd think if you believed creator of the universe wrote a book that you'd want to read it lol

>>22525062
>The Old Testament was the Covenant between God and Judaism that was rendered void by the coming of Jesus. By His death and resurrection it was nullified and a New Testament was established for the whole human race
oh yeah that stupid lie, sure goyim, sure. it's not their culture or deity you're sucking from the floor, its all mankinds culture and deity, sure.

>>22525056
>Post full of falseflaggers.
>OT and NT are the Word of God.
that's not really a response, OP is asking why 99% of christians don't believe this.

>>22525800
it was taxes; england was giving 100% of their church land rents to rome, for no absolutely no reason, along with the rest of western europe.

>ignoring
quite the opposite though, on theological and political grounds; the protestants with national sovereignty over their churches resembled far more the original church model.

>>22525875
Proof?
For either claim

>>22525856
>OP is asking why 99% of christians don't believe this.
Because that's not true at all.
Only a small few are so terribly in error.

As to why? Either willful desire to avoid God's commandments and/or have their desires above His, or out of ignorance.

>>22524599
we don't "leave out" the OT. Hebrews explains very clearly that the old covenant, the Law, the history of the Jews, and a great many other things in the OT are prefigurations of the new and everlasting covenant. we absolutely do need to read the OT, both as a true history of the world and as a means of deepening our understanding of Christ's sacrifice and what we have to do in recognition of that sacrifice. the fact that we don't follow Mosaic Law (for reasons that would, again, be very plain if you'd just read Hebrews) doesn't diminish any of that

>>22526324
it's easier (and less rude, your way is more likely to drive an unbeliever away more than anything) to explain the new covenant then suggest Hebrews instead of forcing it like you're talking.

>>22526360
i think you are nitpicking me

>>22526370
nitpick deez nuts

>>22524599
They don’t want to make love to their fine ass sister in law even when she just stepped out of the shower all wet and has bubbles on her pubis Mons and they’re slowly popping until she’s eventually just standing there with one bubble and it pops

>>22526376
i'd kick your ass if you talked to me like that irl

>>22526382
And I’d suck your dick if I caught you talking like… I dunno if suck your dick

>>22525182
They found them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwWjCxKzWYA&ab_channel=RobertSepehr

OP, I'm Catholic and we literally read from the Old Testament at every Sunday Mass. It's not overlooked at all.

Quite frankly I think the New Testament doesn't make sense without the Old Testament. Jesus doesn't make sense without the generations of prophets and fathers who came before Him, preparing the way for the final salvation of all mankind.

I mean, pic related, Jesus literally meets and talks with Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration. The Old Testament was the preparation of the way for Christ.

>>22526300
Proof for taxes or the dissolution of the monasteries? Pic rel. is a good book which explores this a bit, but you've still got to do some thinking; if 70% of land in Catholic England was held by the Catholic Church who collected rents and were exempt from paying taxes to the Crown but to the Pope (see: papal investiture) then that's 70% of Englands tax base disappearing, same applied across Europe. A holdover from the Roman Empire when that money was paying for military and roads and engineering, which had not existed for over a thousand year by that point in time.

>pic rel was to be Henry VIII J.J. Scarisbrick (1980's) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1535707.Henry_VIII

Proof for the 2nd claim already given:
>>; the protestants with national sovereignty over their churches resembled far more the original church model.
see: the ecumenical council

>>22526412
>Quite frankly I think the New Testament doesn't make sense without the Old Testament. Jesus doesn't make sense without the generations of prophets and fathers who came before Him, preparing the way for the final salvation of all mankind.
Ah but with the OT Jesus is just another in a long line of Jewish Prophets who find the Jews doing bad things and corrects them, so he could seem less special.

>literally meets Moses and Elijah
no he doesn't, that was a story.

>>22527415
>just another prophet
>literally fulfills every part of Messianic prophecy besides the judgement (kept, out of mercy, for the Second Coming)
>literally explains how He fulfills them several times

>>22527464
>Messianic prophecy
No no no, the point of the OT is that prophets never end: the Jews constantly fuck up and require being corrected periodically by prophets, this is the entire story. The idea that Jesus is the last one who fixed it is stupid, especially since he didn't actually fix anything with them.

I'm looking at this as 'culture' not fucking blind religion btw.

>>22527495
Well done whoever you are. Jesus and Yahweh and The Book of J by Harold Bloom are ammmmmaaaazzzzinngggg books on this subject!

you seem to be figuring everything out just fine anyhow

>>22527464
also Moses says there will never be another prophet (until the world blows up, or something) and that the OT and Torah is never ever ever ever to be changed. So what happens after that is irrelevant and cannot reconcile Jesus 'as' prophet or literal god - even throwing Moses into the crucifixion story reveals a blatant and conscious need to explain this contradiction by writing Moses into Jesus and having him consent. Who'd even be fooled by that?

And Moses a mortal could convince the Jews and Jesus as literal God performing miracles before their eyes could not? come on now

>>22524634
>alot fewer

>>22524634
The fuck you got beef with sorcerers for bitch

>>22524599
>Jesus and friend referenced the Old Testament constantly so it must be good
>Jesus came from the line of people from the Old Testament
These are the official lines.
If you want to be cynical, Christianity started as a cult offshoot of Judaism.

>>22527648
they accidentally puritanism by being burnt alive

>>22527506
>>>22527495 (You)
>Well done whoever you are.
most welcome >>22525222

>>22525302
>You must read it literally except when there's a translation error!

I'm a newfag to this board (typically use /tv/ and /ck/). I'm surprised by the amount of Christian discourse on this board, particularly because it doesn't seem to be a constant flame war. What's up with that? Is it a consequence of western literature being so contingent on the Bible or what?

>>22528064
The Bible is actually the only thing that is going on. Literature, history, politics and daily life are all forms that have emerged out of its remarkable, magical, horrific pages.

I was a casual nonreader normie once and will give you the good stuff up front.

Everything human is wrapped up in language and literature is just crystalized language. Life, in particular consciousness, is a linguistic phenomenon.

Words go in the ears and out comes a man with thoughts speech and action.

We are just fucking nodes of words moving around everywhere, and we are completely caught up in them.

Literature is actually the only thing you have ever done. Now come in and join ur weird club.

>>22528074
Enticing

>>22528074
>Life, in particular consciousness, is a linguistic phenomenon.
Somebody skipped meditation (and gym)

>>22528064
Tradcath larpers colonized the board many moons ago, I don’t know what they’re getting on about but they at least appear to have read the books they talk about, which puts them a rank above most of humanity

>>22524599
they don't. you're thinking of Marcionites,

>>22528088
I posted here a lot in 2015-2018 making a lot of intensive arguments for Catholocism. Sorry.

>>22528064
You think this is bad, check out /his/
The gist of it is right-wing zoomers are looking for an intellectual tradition that could oppose modernity and are running out of options

>>22525800
the point of Protestantism was to bring to light about the Catholic Church's excesses, which included the selling of indulgences and high rates of nepotism among papal families within Rome. now on the other hand, the church was accruing massive debt due to its excessive projects, which included the building of extravagant churches, and financing wars to bring Jerusalem to their knees in order to establish a middle eastern Christian kingdom, which was doomed to fail due to the fact Islam's core tenants involve a great amount of putting women into positions of subservience (not saying this is a bad thing, however) which Europeans generally speaking treated women with slightly more liberty in regards to bearing children, even before feminism was a thing. This meant the armies of Islam were endless amounts of cannon fodder that the Templars and Hospitaliers couldn't withstand. All these failures led to Martin Luther nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the Vatican which prompted Protestantism's rise. In other words, it was inevitable and if Luther didn't do it, someone else would. Luther's proclamations were so powerful that they inspired Jean Calvin to usher a similar cry to bring the church back to its main purpose which was to be in direct contact with the Christ as the disciples had been.

>>22528101
/his/ is the opposite though, its one big never ending flame-war

>>22528084
Hey, thanks for the suggestion. I think will go meditate.

Oh loookie there, words go in, out comes exercise

your body is a slave of words dummy

>>22528143
well yeah this is a higher IQ board
/his/ Christians are ironically the strongest argument against Christianity

people dont actually "yeet out the old testament" they yeet out all the very context-sensitive stuff about the old covenant because it literally does not matter any more. things like the story of genesis and all of the general moral guidelines are generally still adhered to by Christians, while context specific rituals like circumcision and similar things are (usually) not.

>>22528152
Nonsense. Surprising that a stoner would believe that.
We are animals, Lacan is a fraud, and if you are stuck on the level of language you haven't really lived.

>>22528153
i dont think there is any "/his/ or /lit/" Christians, im pretty sure its all the same overlap, its just that the nature of history discussion on 4chan is naturally aggressive and competitive, "history and humanities" allows for a broader range of inflammatory discussion that would be considered off topic here, and "history" is a significantly more accessible topic that appeals to a broader range of people. every other double digit IQ pagan larper from /pol/ can happily browse a board like /his/ regularly and shit up the place, whereas being a regular on /lit/ seems like it would be pretty boring if you dont actually read books, and it lends itself to Christianity anyway since so much classical European literature is christian in nature

>>22528172
I have absolutely no idea why you just expressed to me your view on the 20th century French psychanalyst Jacques Lacan.

I am not much of a stoner, I smoke a bowl before bed (figured out daytime smoking makes me incredibly depressed some years ago, this singular small chang of only smoking in evenings was a huge benefit, I sleep well and have no observable negative side effects. I am an adult and I am allowed to put what I want in my body. Respect people and do not call people names. Another person's experience with a drug is not the same as yours. You should not be so eager to morally regulate others)

>>22527507
>And Moses a mortal could convince the Jews and Jesus as literal God performing miracles before their eyes could not? come on now

The Jews literally saw Moses PART THE SEA with the power of God and they still wind up worshipping a statue they made themselves when he's up on Mount Sinai a little too long.

The Old Testament itself provides ample evidence that yes, actually, the Jews could convince themselves Jesus was a charlatan when He was actually their for-real Messiah. The Old Testament does not actually paint the Jewish people in a terribly favorable light.

God basically keeps going back to them even when they endlessly betray Him. The Jews are a mess in the OT.

>>22524599
They do and they don't. They cherrypick verses that fit their narrative for reference and ignore those that don't, like:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Even though they're clearly a part of the same Law as the Ten Commandments (which are actually just the introduction to the entire law and not in any way special by themselves, and can be bended whenever God is pissed off). They also conveniently ignore all the times their God demanded child sacrifice, but are so eager to quote all the narrative parts. It's an important historical document worth of study, but even a 12 year old critically analyzing it would come up with the conclusion it's a bunch of bullshit to keep the peasant in line. It served its purpose and we need to move on.

>>22524599
Not literature you retarded faggot

>>22528305
I'm sure since they wrote it it's their intention; to remind them to "not stray".

Idk, it's a whacked out religion of pointlessness no matter how you approach it, be it from jesus or muhammad or the polygamists in the OT ... personally I prefer Ghenghis Khans legend, did you know he was persecuted as a teenager just because he was clever?

>>22524651
Thanks boomers

>>22527495
But the entire divergence from the OT is that Jesus’ teachings don’t just concern the Jews but any believer.

>>22529033
from a Monad-Greekish perspective, sure, reality though: still the ethnic god of the Jews, still a heathen barbarous cult of body mutilation. I could argue it's Satan they worship really, since the God s depicted as being encouraging of evil things, but who can be bothered.

>>22524599
>Christians
Religious people are demagogues. In the end, religion is mainly about a cosmovision, that kinda "just works" for most people, than anything else.

>>22525875
>>22527364
>everything around the world revolves around me
peak anglo post

They don’t. If you mean to ask “why don’t Christians follow the law as laid out in the Old Testament” it’s simply because those are Jewish laws laid down for the Jews, which Christians are not. For Christians, the Old Testament laws are kept in a different way.

>>22528370
> what is spirit of the law?

>>22529175
it'll continue to do so, English Language User.

I can tell you didn't read btw, since I pointed out that the taxes to rome applied all over western europe and where themselves the initial spark of the schism, when rome wanted to tax somewhere in the Balkans and Constantinople pointed out that the Balkans was not in their demense.

The guff about theology and "unleavened bread bits" is for the pendejos, in other words, and you sound like one, bendy hoe, you.

>>22529208
wot do you meen? shell oil had moral reasons for extracting oils from the sea, it was not about profit

>>22528305
Jesus dude, this is ferociously antisemitic... you are piling wood to burn Jews here. You have a monster running loose in your mind unawares you.

The Jews are the tragically unsung heroes of the West, holding a singular line against belief-by-force for a thousand years, keeping the light on through the Dark Ages.

Life is so unbelievably sad and cruel.

>>22529250
The irony is that they were dealing with people LARPing harder at being OT Jews than they were, I gotta imagine being a Jew and watching a Christian speak has to be like some insane clownhouse mirror.

uh anyway, they should've done more for the USSR if they wanted religion to be gone for good.

when will the Emperor return?

>>22529250
Not really, they were just a gnostic cult. The talmud has nothing to do with the Bible in reality. In reality, it is the God of the Bible who is the Lord and sovereign of the whole universe.

>>22530377
That is truly spectacular hyperbolic literalisation. You just decided a human book character is the creator of space and time.

SICK YAHWEH FRACTAL BRUHHHH

...God made people who made a Bible with a God who made people who made a Bible with a....

>>22530434
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
- Psalm 119:160

"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
- Psalm 119:89

>>22530444
>the Bible is true bro look right here in the Bible where it says the Bible is true

It is too much for coincidence that you just posted this. I think your mind made the association at a subconscious level. That's cool, I reckon you're smarter than you realize. Latent smarts though. You only get to use 5-10% of your brain in a dogmatic worldview.

>>22530460
Have a good day, anon.

>>22529250
>Jesus dude, this is ferociously antisemitic

I am ferociously anti-semitic.

>>22530944
I think there is something very evil here in this post of yours, like you are tightly clutching the dagger you increasingly intend to drive into your rival's back.

>>22529187
A made up fantasy used to justifying doing the exact opposite of what God actually said. Jesus is nothing but a corrupter of the Old Testament.

>>22531054
How, when Jesus pointed out that the law was actually even stricter than people thought? Even the Pharisees were condemned, because while they didn't act on temptation, they were tempted in the heart.

>>22524599
Read the Epistle of Barnabas.

>>22531054
daily reminder that Paul made-up these elements in "Christianity" and never even met jesus, even the idea that Christianity was anything other than a reform movement within judaism is from paul - as well as the notion that "jesus ends the law".

>>22525068
>the commandments stand.
Do you really think that post was referring to the commandments being rendered void, numbnuts?

>>22526324
Hebrews is the perfect example that the OT and the NT has very little to do with eachother. It is a very forced interpretation. It should be clear if you read the the author's references in Greek and in Hebrew.

>>22524599
Probably for the same reason a lot of early Christian writings were left out of the bible, they didn't like it, so they erased it.

>>22533009
it tells you a lot about the nature of religious peoples claims of 'belief' ...they sincerely believe they've discovered gods holy words in a story that translates gods divine will, .. and then they proceed to edit it and omit bits because they don't like some of it.

total frauds

>>22524599
Emergency people are pretty high and mighty when they are usually the safest people on the planet. and explain why this person won't be able to even solve this

The first hospital is probably less important then the country doctor

>>22533151
except there are lots of fakes and forgeries

>>22532995
>It is a very forced interpretation.
No it's not.

>>22532277
>the notion that "jesus ends the law".
Even putting aside everything else you said, this alone shows that you haven't actually read the Bible. Let's see what Paul really said.
>Acts 24:14 But this I confess to thee, that according to the way, which they call a heresy, so do I serve the Father and my God, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets
>Romans 2:12-13 For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
>Romans 3:31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.
>Romans 6:14-17 For sin shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice. But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.
>Romans 7:13-14 Was that then which is good, made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it may appear sin, by that which is good, wrought death in me; that sin, by the commandment, might become sinful above measure. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
>Romans 7:21-25 I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

>>22524599
>Why do a lot of Christians yeet out the Old Testament?
It feels Jewy and un-Christian. It shouldn't be part of the corpus.

>>22533634
>you haven't actually read the Bible. Let's see what Paul really said.
>acts, romans
it doesn't phase me, christcuck, i know paul wrote all of those words and i know paul was a despicable human being; his words are the equivalent of hitler converting to judaism.