/lit/ - Literature

FIRST FOR DEATH TO LLPSI

Reposting anon's question, just to encourage discussion
For someone who wants to learn both Latin and Greek, is it better to do one (I would assume Latin) first and then the other, or to take them simultaneously?

>>22518311
one first and then the other
Finish your first textbook then start the other while continuing on with reading the initial language

What is your personal favourite Classical text?

>>22518384
not that well read myself, but so far the Iliad, though I also enjoyed quite different stuff like Plautus' comedies, at least the few I read

German wiki article on ancient Greek starts with a "Textprobe" (text sample) together with an audio file which is the most goofy ass rendition of reconstructed pronunciation I've ever heard. Have a laugh.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgriechische_Sprache#Textprobe

>>22518940
not bad tbqh, sort of robotic yes, but fairly spot on I'd say as far as reconstructed sounds are concerned except I'd expect the (early?) Attic false diphthong ου to be [o:] whereas he sounds [ɔ:]

another day I study Greek and Latin is another step towards getting an attractive woman to have sex with me

>>22518311
There's no blanket answer. Either alone will require obsession. Therefore, start with the one you're obsessed with

>>22518296
Two suggested additions to the FAQ for Chinese. Victor Mair is the authority on learning the thing in the West imo.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=39905
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42963

>>22519272
My wife hates my Greek books and hides them sometimes.

>>22519392
i graeca

>>22519272
Need to see her footgame to decide

Sorry if this is a newfag question but do any of the ancient near eastern languages have anything approaching aesthetically appreciable literature? I mean, they are obviously interesting as historical relics but I'm not exactly sure whether there is anything in Akkadian or Middle Egyptian or any other language that would make learning those languages feel truly worth it, like when you first reach that level where you can kinda-sorta stumble your way through Caesar and Plato.

>>22518384
The Apology

hey a friend of mine is being drawn towards mycenaean greek and he found a book by J.T. Hooker called Linear B: An Introduction. If anyone has experience with the book, is it good or do you know of anything better because I am being seduced by the allure of the wanax.

Having read a NM book like athenaze, will I be able to read actual Greek literature without parsing every word?
t. Studied the grammar already but hates reading it in such an autistic manner

>>22519545
Pre-read by reviewing a text's frequent vocabulary and you will probably be alright.
t. Also read Athenaze back and forth until it approached my native reading speed and can read Xenophon at about half that by pre-reading.

>>22518384
In no order:
>Vergil's works (particularly the Eclogues and the Aeneid)
>Callimachus' fragments
>Presocratic fragment (particularly Heraclitus and Parmenides)
>Plato's Sophist
>Sophocles' Ajax

>>22518298
why, i quite enjoy it rn. was it not helpful?

>>22518384
楚辭

>>22518296
>mega folder doesnt even include Learn to Read Greek by Keller and Russell
fuck you

>>22518296
It is nice to see another Hippocrates fan on here. I just finished reading a text of his. Some of it was advanced but some of it was horrifying. He suggests treating eyelid wounds and hemorrhoids with a needle and string! I wanted to vomit reading that. He said to cut the hemorrhoid off and give the guy an enema three times a month. I am so glad I don’t live in antiquity.

>>22520050
I am MegaAnon. Both books and their workbooks are on my todo list.
But, since you were so rude about it, I will not be uploading them to the Mega until you sincerely apologize. Every other request I have gotten has been pleasant and I have tried to accommodate as quickly as possible. See filename
Fuck you too

>>22520292
>>22520292
It's genuinely the best self contained course next to Pharr's Homeric Greek (which I'm partial to), so really it should be you apologising to all the others who requested it and all prospective students of Greek for refusing to upload it because of you're butthurt over light hearted banter
I have no investment in this, I only discovered /clg/ today because I left this god forsaken board years ago, so no, I'm not going to entertain your petty power trip

>>22520074
did you read it in the Greek? if so, how did you find it compared to other authors you've read?
>>22519947
I don't entirely get its criticism myself. some of it, I imagine, is indirectly influenced by certain advocators of it: there are a lot of redditors who circklejerk over it and perhaps make exaggerated claims of its utility sometimes. I've also seen someone say that it makes you think you're better than you actually are, which I do not necessarily agree with. there may be some who get overconfident in their abiltiies having read Familia Romana, say, but I myself - and I am sure many others as well - had a fairly realistic sense of my Latin skills after reading whatever all I initially read of the series before getting into authentic authors. Some people simply don't like the nature method approach, which is fine, but that's just a personal preference. I don't know if I've seen this criticism myself, but I remember reading one of the later chapters of Familia Romana and thinking that one of the marginal grammar explanations was unclear - even after having read a clear English explanation. part of the problem with that though is that I imagine how clear a grammar explanation of Latin in Latin is depends to some extent on your general intelligence and language-learning experience. I have heard people say that it's not sufficient to start getting into actual Latin authors, but I think that highly depends on how you use the text(s). I don't think any grammar/instructional Latin text will make you be able to jump into any and every text with little difficulty, but my experience has been that with Familia Romana, Roma Aeterna, and some of the supplementary works, it has greatly helped me to read authentic texts more easily. power level, but after reading Familia Romana I read some Cicero for a college Latin course and was the top of my class. there were some peculiarities at first, but naturally authors are going to have that regardless of which grammar you read prior. I was much more acquainted with analyzing syntax than my peers and it obviously showed; and I attribute my success in large part to llpsi. in short, it's not perfect, but nothing is. it's more than good enough and can be used in more or less useful ways

>>22519481
Get gud at Hebrew and then do go balls deep in Classical Syriac.

>>22518296
They made greek news papers?

Are comma splices okay in Latin?

So his name means…horsepower…?

>>22520399
If you could write a short two, three lines review I'll add it to the recommended books in the FAQ. thx

>>22521001
basically, yes
Greeks had so much cooler names than Romans, reminds me of that meme about Arab vs English names

now that the dust has settled, which has better literature, latin or greek?

How did backwoods yokels like the Romans manage to conquer their intellectual, spiritual, and aesthetic superiors, the Greeks?

>>22521001
horses were expensive and keeping them was an aristocratic hobby, so putting horse terms in your kids' names was a flex. here's my son Porschelexus and my daughter Newiphone

look what i found lol. finally, a beginner's resource fit for this thread
http://library.lol/main/100E96AFFB999F30C8D64A5DE280412A

You are commissioned to provide dual facing editions of Latin texts which would be the best for language learners
Is a language learner going to learn Latin better if the English translation is word for word or thought for thought?

>>22519272
formosa puella, nam ego culos cinaedorum desidero futuere. habetne mentulam?

>>22521208
>word for word or thought for thought
depends on what you mean exactly. some Latin words cannot be expressed in English with a single word (e.g. future perfect verbs). I would assume that in general translating more literally but still having a more natural English word order would be the most effective. of course idioms/figurative speech would be more difficult to deal with, but you could simply make footnotes explaining them

>>22520953
That’s a Latin text. It’s the equivalent of a medical pamphlet.

>>22521001
Yes, besides his powerful name, he also claimed descent from Aesclipius and Hercules. Claiming heritage from divinity was popular among noblemen at the time.

I keep giving up on latin and greek, any good way to not give up?

>>22522216
>I keep giving up
why?

>>22522216
>any good ways to not give up?
that depends somewhat on your reasonings for studying in the first place, your general work ethic, and your current schedule/life situation. why do you want to studying Latin and Greek in the first place? do you simply have a poor work ethic or are you discouraged because you find it difficult to study? why do you find it difficult? is it because of the languages themselves, working study into your other obligations and hobbies, both?

parvulus infans lacte vivit neque modo infans sed etiam quidam rana cui nomen est pepulus

>>22521173
after the Peloponnese war, it was over

>>22520292
Gloating over a computer file. How embarrassing.

>>22520399
>all the others who requested it
no one else requested it
>I have no investment in this
and yet you replied. Strange for a man with no investment
>It's genuinely the best self contained course next to Pharr's Homeric Greek
neither are true, but if you can give some reasons for why you think this without being a dick I will upload it. Tall order for someone with no investment though.
>>22523851
Asking for common decency is not gloating. It is on libgen, most of the Mega is. Feel free to get it there.

>>22523546
Athens got too cocky and never should have gone for Sicily :/
They would have won and left the world a better place

>>22521173
Rome was politically united, and the Greeks weren't. Also, already in the 3rd century BC Rome was able to potentially raise an army of half a million which was no small feat. Here's a prescient speech from Polybius 5.104, written after the conquest, of course.
> "The best thing of all is that the Greeks should not
Speech of Agelaus of Naupactus foreshadowing the Roman conquest.
go to war with each other at all, but give the gods hearty thanks if by all speaking with one voice, and joining hands like people crossing a stream, they may be able to repel the attacks of barbarians and save themselves and their cities. But if this is altogether impossible, in the present juncture at least we ought to be unanimous and on our guard, when we see the bloated armaments and the vast proportions assumed by the war in the west. For even now it is evident to any one who pays even a moderate attention to public affairs, that whether the Carthaginians conquer the Romans, or the Romans the Carthaginians, it is in every way improbable that the victors will remain contented with the empire of Sicily and Italy. They will move forward: and will extend their forces and their designs farther than we could wish. Wherefore, I beseech you all to be on your guard against the danger of the crisis, and above all you, O King. You will do this, if you abandon the policy of weakening the Greeks, and thus rendering them an easy prey to the invader; and consult on the contrary for their good as you would for your own person, and have a care for all parts of Greece alike, as part and parcel of your own domains. If you act in this spirit, the Greeks will be your warm friends and faithful coadjutors in all your undertakings; while foreigners will be less ready to form designs against you, seeing with dismay the firm loyalty of the Greeks. If you are eager for action, turn your eyes to the west, and let your thoughts dwell upon the wars in Italy. Wait with coolness the turn of events there, and seize the opportunity to strike for universal dominion. Nor is the present crisis unfavourable for such a hope. But I intreat of you to postpone your controversies and wars with the Greeks to a time of greater tranquillity; and make it your supreme aim to retain the power of making peace or war with them at your own will. For if once you allow the clouds now gathering in the west to settle upon Greece, I fear exceedingly that the power of making peace or war, and in a word all these games which we are now playing against each other, will be so completely knocked out of the hands of us all, that we shall be praying heaven to grant us only this power of making war or peace with each other at our own will and pleasure, and of settling our own disputes."
>>22523546
What was over, over for whom? Tell us more, anon, you picture doesn't tell us much.

>>22523977
Athens shouldve never attempted to be a naval power. If Alcibiades had routed the Spartans on land he wouldve crushed them and have been remembered by history as a hero.

>>22521173
Rome was politically united, and the Greeks weren't. Also, already in the 3rd century BC Rome was able to potentially raise an army of half a million which was no small feat. Here's a prescient speech from Polybius 5.104, written after the conquest, of course.
"The best thing of all is that the Greeks should not foreshadowing the Roman conquest. go to war with each other at all, but give the gods hearty thanks if by all speaking with one voice, and joining hands like people crossing a stream, they may be able to repel the attacks of barbarians and save themselves and their cities. But if this is altogether impossible, in the present juncture at least we ought to be unanimous and on our guard, when we see the bloated armaments and the vast proportions assumed by the war in the west. For even now it is evident to any one who pays even a moderate attention to public affairs, that whether the Carthaginians conquer the Romans, or the Romans the Carthaginians, it is in every way improbable that the victors will remain contented with the empire of Sicily and Italy. They will move forward: and will extend their forces and their designs farther than we could wish. Wherefore, I beseech you all to be on your guard against the danger of the crisis, and above all you, O King. You will do this, if you abandon the policy of weakening the Greeks, and thus rendering them an easy prey to the invader; and consult on the contrary for their good as you would for your own person, and have a care for all parts of Greece alike, as part and parcel of your own domains. If you act in this spirit, the Greeks will be your warm friends and faithful coadjutors in all your undertakings; while foreigners will be less ready to form designs against you, seeing with dismay the firm loyalty of the Greeks. If you are eager for action, turn your eyes to the west, and let your thoughts dwell upon the wars in Italy. Wait with coolness the turn of events there, and seize the opportunity to strike for universal dominion. Nor is the present crisis unfavourable for such a hope. But I intreat of you to postpone your controversies and wars with the Greeks to a time of greater tranquillity; and make it your supreme aim to retain the power of making peace or war with them at your own will. For if once you allow the clouds now gathering in the west to settle upon Greece, I fear exceedingly that the power of making peace or war, and in a word all these games which we are now playing against each other, will be so completely knocked out of the hands of us all, that we shall be praying heaven to grant us only this power of making war or peace with each other at our own will and pleasure, and of settling our own disputes."

>>22523546
What was over, over for whom? Anon, after the Peloponnesian War the internecine warfare continued until the Persians were the ones who stepped in and brokered the peace. Then, the Macedonian conquest followed, the wars of the Diadochoi and various conflicts between the Macedonian Kingdom and various Greek leagues until the Roman stepped in and made sure that the Greeks weren't able to conduct war ever again.Sure there were some pretenders to the throne or people like Mithridates VI beating the drum for freedom, but in the end, it was over. It's obviously more complex, but I felt like pointing out some basic facts because certain people seem to think that the history of various Greek poleis stops in the 4th century.
The great irony of the city state was that the two great powers who fought for freedom (in vague terms) against the Persians later did everything in their power to stamp out freedom amongst various Greek poleis and even resorted to selling out other Greeks when it suited their agenda.

Morning, /cgl/. Anyone here know Latin and feels like helping an anon out on his birthday?

I want to combine the following to have it read/say:
>dominus + lupus dei
>"master/sir wolf of god"

Inspiration: I was reading about the Livonian werewolf/Thiess of Kaltenbrun, and the phrase "hound of God" was used in the trial. Later on, "lupus dei" was used by artists in reference to this trial, a play on "agnes dei." I think I don't need to explain the symbolism of "dominus."

I want to combine them to indicate this higher, chosen "master/sir wolf of god," but I'm a sperg and want to do it as right as I can. Any help would be appreciated.

>>22525217
In Latin, formal honorifics were usually appended to someone's name to indicate prestige or social rank. For example, officials in late antiquity took the appellation "vir clarissimus", literally "a most renowned/distinguished man", so you could style yours dei lupus clarissimus/illustris/etc

>>22525217
princeps may work better in classical terms, rather than dominus
lupus dei princeps

>>22521208
I think "average" translations are fine, that's my experience even with Greek-Latin bilingual editions, the translation shouldn't e.g make idiomatic expressions clunky by trying to be literal, the learner should learn that those are idioms, but it shouldn't stray too much either. Learner should try to read the original and look at the translation in order to understand the original by going back to it and reflecting anyway on the text, but with the translation in mind.

Those of you who tackled Biblical Hebrew: how did you do it? Did you just use flash cards, since the core vocabulary is so small? Or was there a better method?

>>22526997
>since the core vocabulary is so small?
Who told you that? You know the Bible is not one book, right? It's an anthology and it's spans centuries. The lexicon ain't exactly Greek, but to say that it's "so small" seems a bit of a stretch.

>>22526997
Graded readers that spam those high frequency seem to work the best. See if you can find any. Ideal ratio is 75% from reading 25% from anki.

>>22521208
In this book, it demonstrates how native Greek speakers who were learning Latin started off with dialogues much like in modern textbooks. On one side was the Latin and the other Greek which was a word for word translation of the Latin.
For absolute beginners, it seems to be that providing a word for word + the idiotmatic translation, like Assimil in their absolute beginner course as well, is the best stepping stone. Perhaps at intermediate, the word for word crutch won't be needed since you will already have a foundation.

>conficere vs facere
in the sense of making or producing, is there a difference?

Is learning Modern Greek worth it to improve ones Ancient Greek? To get better at pronounciation or to access academic literature on antiquity for example.

Asking because I am interested in Greek Philology and there are some programs which include 1-2 semesters of Modern Greek while others seem to ignore it completely.

>>22528921
Pronunciation is a bit of a sensitive topic, and is a half political half practical question. There are some Greeks who insist that the pronunciation of their language has not changed (despite it undergoing a particularly major change during the archaic period: ᾶ > η). Of course this is also ignoring regional differences. So pronunciation is a bit of a sore spot all around, and it'd be good to study multiple ways of doing it. However, the primary difficulty of Ancient Greek pronunciation, the pitch accent, is often outright ignored by many, both in the Anglosphere and in Greece (possibly elsewhere but I don't personally know). It is often treated as a stress accent instead, which is outright wrong but few teachers want to bother with it at all. Modern Greek does have its similarities with Ancient Greek, so you might be able to improve parts of your vocabulary and get more access to easier readings, but the disadvantage is that the language has changed massively over the millennia and that you might end up confusing the two at times, which could be a problem. It's not a bad idea though I find a lot of Modern Greek hard to stomach coming from Ancient.

>>22528921
only because you mentioned philology you may gain some advantage from it, but otherwise not really, especially for phonology, which I guess is arguably where the languages diverged the most

>>22529015
>>22529023
I see, thank you for the reply. I guess I'll try to avoid Modern Greek then as I'd prefer spending time on Italian and French instead; in the former the works of Giorgio Colli seem very intriguing when it comes to the Greeks.

>>22528868
intuitively from my experience I'd say, in that specific sense of putting things together, more than a difference you have rather a preference for the former compound over simple "facio"

>>22527872
NTA, but it's around 9k words (going by Strong's concordance). That's really small, the only language with smaller vocabulary I can think of is Gothic with around 4k words.

How hard is Livy? He has made me want to learn Latin. Can anyone suggest some good Latin textbooks in Italian or French?

>>22529879
Assimil (French), duh

>>22523977
Thucydides implies that, though he abundantly disliked the expedition, Athens could've nonetheless taken Sicily if they hadn't recalled Alcibiades and put the expedition's biggest opponent, Nicias, in charge. Besides being opposed to the expedition, Nicias' superstitious beliefs applied to the army sealed their fate.

>>22519272
So uhh what's her name

>>22529879
Hard but not insane hard

Some regard Livy as a rite of passage

>Tandem Pygmalion formosissimae puellae signum confecit, quae aureum capillum, caeruleos oculos, rubra labra habebat. Cuius signi amore captus, Pygmalion miserrimus factus erat et nocte pessime dormiebat
does cuius = eius here? what did pigman mean by this...

>>22530217
the meaning yes, but cuius is the genitive of relative pronoun 'qui' here I believe i.e referring to her in the previous phrase

>>22521001
hipparchus, anaxippus, lysippus, and leucippus are also among the horse lads

>>22530217
>>22530244
yeah it basically means eius. I've heard it described as a "connecting relative". it is literally a relative pronoun, creating a relative clause, but we often wouldn't literally speak like that in English (and perhaps other languages too). like eius, cuius is by itself gender non-specific, but, as it it is here I believe an adjective going with signi, it would refer to Pygmalion's statue. so literally something like "captured by the love of whose statue". but I would interpret it as an objective genitive, so more naturally something like "captured by the love (he has for) his statue"

>>22530345
>objectivally genitive connecting relative
impressive, very nice
>At last Pygmalion finished the statue of a most beautiful girl who had golden hair and cerulean eyes and red labia. Captivated by love for his statue, Pygmalion had become miserable and slept very badly at night

>>22530520
>red labia
haha if this is a joke good on you. otherwise look up 'labrum'

>>22529784
Thank you for your correction. I didn't know the exact number.

1 In princípio creávit Deus cælum et terram. 2 Terra autem erat inánis et vácua, et ténebræ super fáciem abýssi, et spíritus Dei ferebátur super aquas. 3 Dixítque Deus: “Fiat lux.” Et facta est lux. 4 Et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divísit Deus lucem ac ténebras. 5 Appellavítque Deus lucem Diem et ténebras Noctem. Factúmque est véspere et mane, dies unus. 6 Dixit quoque Deus: “Fiat firmaméntum in médio aquárum et dívidat aquas ab aquis.” 7 Et fecit Deus firmaméntum divisítque aquas, quæ erant sub firmaménto, ab his, quæ erant super firmaméntum. Et factum est ita. 8 Vocavítque Deus firmaméntum Cælum. Et factum est véspere et mane, dies secúndus. 9 Dixit vero Deus: “Congregéntur aquæ, quæ sub cælo sunt, in locum unum, et appáreat árida.” Factúmque est ita. 10 Et vocávit Deus áridam Terram congregationésque aquárum appellávit Mária. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum. 11 Et ait Deus: “Gérminet terra herbam viréntem et herbam faciéntem semen et lignum pomíferum fáciens fructum juxta genus suum, cujus semen in semetípso sit super terram.” Et factum est ita. 12 Et prótulit terra herbam viréntem et herbam afferéntem semen juxta genus suum lignúmque fáciens fructum, qui habet in semetípso seméntem secúndum spéciem suam. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum. 13 Et factum est véspere et mane, dies tértius. 14 Dixit autem Deus: “Fiant luminária in firmaménto cæli, ut dívidant diem ac noctem et sint in signa et témpora et dies et annos, 15 ut lúceant in firmaménto cæli et illúminent terram. Et factum est ita. 16 Fecítque Deus duo magna luminária: lumináre majus, ut præésset diéi, et lumináre minus, ut præésset nocti, et stellas. 17 Et pósuit eas Deus in firmaménto cæli, ut lucérent super terram 18 et præéssent diéi ac nocti et divíderent lucem ac ténebras. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum. 19 Et factum est véspere et mane, dies quartus. 20 Dixit étiam Deus: “Púllulent aquæ réptile ánimæ vivéntis, et volátile volet super terram sub firmaménto cæli.” 21 Creavítque Deus cete grándia et omnem ánimam vivéntem atque motábilem, quam púllulant aquæ secúndum spécies suas, et omne volátile secúndum genus suum. Et vidit Deus quod esset bonum; 22 benedixítque eis Deus dicens: “Créscite et multiplicámini et repléte aquas maris, avésque multiplicéntur super terram.” 23 Et factum est véspere et mane, dies quintus.

>>22531829
not even a Christian but based. the vulgate is a really good resource for building/strengthening your vocab and strengthening your general understanding of syntax

>>22518296
Is “Haedrae” a colloquialism for wound? Francis Adams himself doesn’t seem to be sure of the definition of this because he puts the word wound in brackets after the untranslated word.

>>22518296
He has “dints or marks” in brackets but the word Haedrae is untranslated implying it is a lesser known colloquialism he was unsure of.

How would you say "thank you for asking" in Latin?

>>22532048
gratias tibi ago quod stupravisti me

>>22532048
matre fututa gratias tibi ago

>>22532058
I kinda wanted to avoid using quod. Is a gerund construction similar to English possible at all in Latin?
>gratias tibi ago pro τοῦ ἀνωνύμου matrem stuprando

>>22531829
>ténebræ
i've been saying tenébræ my whole career

>>22532911
I initially assumed every consonant cluster made the vowel before it heavy but there’s a few exceptions. I also said “tenébra, volúcris” etc.

>>22533005
Luke's ancilla got me saying cerébrum like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EToqQROCY_M&t=50s

>>22532048
gratias ob rogatum

>>22531829
>quod esset

>>22534257
imperfect subjunctive in a subordinate clause in secondary sequence denoting an incomplete action/state

>>22534795
goofy ahh biblical nigga just use an infinitive clause sмh Cicero crying rn

If I dedicate all my waking hours to Latin how quickly and I reach a level where I'm capable of reading stuff with the help of a dictionary and a reference grammar?

>>22534831
There's a big difference between having to look up every second word, and having to look up one critical word per page. Both would count as reading with the help of dictionary.

>>22534845
I don't mind looking up every second word. As long as I have a primitive vocabulary and can parse sentences. I guess what I mean is reach an intermediate level.

>>22531829
1 In beginning created God heaven and earth. 2 Earth however was inane and empty, and darknesses over face of abyss, and spirit of God was being carried over waters. Saidand God: "Let become light." And made is light. 4 And saw God light that was good and divided God light and darknesses. 5 Calledand God light Day and darknesses Night. Madeand is with evening and morning, day one. 6 Said also God: "Let become firmament in middle of waters and let divide waters from waters." 7 And made God firmament dividedand waters, which were under firmament, from these, which were over firmament. And made is so. 8 Calledand God firmament Heaven. And made is with evening and morning, day second. 9 Said however God: "Let be gathered waters, which under heaven are, into place one, and let appear dry land." madeand is so. 10 And called God dry land Earth gatheringsand of waters called Seas. And saw God that was good. 11 And said God: "Let grow earth of herb green and herb making seed and tree fruitbearing making produce beside type its, of which seed in ititself be over earth." And made is so. 12 And forthcarried earth herb green and herb tocarrying seed beside type its treeand making produce, who has in ititself planting second species its. And saw God that was good. 13 And made is with evening and morning, day third. 14 Said however God: "Let become lightings in firmament of heaven; as divide day from night and be into signs and times and days and years, 15 as light in firmament of heaven and illuminate earth. And made is so. 16 Madeand God two great lightings: to light greater, as beforebe in day, and to light lesser, as beforebe in night, and stars. 17 And placed them God in firmament of heavent, as light over earth 18 and beforebe in day and in night and divide light and darknesses. And saw God that was good. 19 And made is with evening and morning, day fourth. 20 Said even God: "Let produce waters with reptile of soul living, and flying let fly over earth under firmament of heaven." 21 Createdand God whale great and every animal living also moving, whom produce waters second species its, and every flying second type its. And saw God that be good; 22 wellspokeand to them God saying: "Grow and multiply and refill waters of sea, birdsand let multiply over earth." 23 And made is with evening and morning, day fifth.

>he reads the plebian latin translation
Read Sebastian Castellio's Ciceronian translation instead

>>22534819
I could be wrong, but I believe using 'quod' in that way, a more hypotactic way than simply using an infinitive with an accusative subject, was already fairly common by the time the bible was first translated into Latin. my guess, though this is just speculation, is that all things considered it is a simpler manner of expressing that idea, and more obvious (with an explicit word showing subordinaion (i.e., 'quod')), and then you can use a finite verb and you don't have to change the case of the subject. so it is noticeably different from, say, Cicero (although some simply call him "kike"), but it may simply be a natural simplification of grammar

Are bilingual editions any good or can having the english side by side become a crutch?

>>22535049
if you only use the English side after having earnestly tried to understand the original, then it will never be a crutch. that said, depending on the translation, even if you go to it after having tried to understand the original for what it is, if the translation is quite liberal it can be a hinderance. I've seen a few sections of a Loeb that are like that, but idk how common it is or with other bilingual works

>>22534969
Too hard, vulgate easy

>>22535049
on a computer at least I found them useful as you can isolate basically the side you want and go as far as you wish with the original and peek on the other when you are truly confused; it's good also because after a certain point you can basically learn new words in context instead of back and fort jumping with dictionaries, although it's always a good idea to check definitions

Who here has used the Septuagint for extensive reading input? I've read the bible and would consider myself passively familiar. Is it worth it to improve my Sprachgefuhl, as it were?

>>22521173
>Hyper mobilised society which exists by going to war
>United Latin society and allied with equally as mobilised Central Italian peoples
It was kind of inevitable when 20-25% of your male population is actively at war at all times you tend to be doing pretty well.

>>22535020
nah pretty sure it's specifically a matter of literal translation, because even the Greek, which works similar to Latin here in using an infinitive construction, uses an awkward(by Koine standards even) "εἶδεν, ὅτι καλόν"
Eutropius lived around that time and his Latin is much nicer

>>22537125
>nah pretty sure it's specifically a matter of literal translation
could be
>Eutropius lived around that time and his Latin is much nicer
I'll take your word for it, but there are various registers of speech across languages, including Latin. Cicero's speeches, for instance, aren't exemplary of most Romans' speech at the time. also the audience should be considered. even in Petronius we see from slaves who came into wealth after receiving freedom that there were simplifications of "proper" Latin, from more hypotactic constructions to less grammatical gender variation

>>22518296
I translate Homer, can anyone check my Translation?

6.1: Ὣς ὁ μὲν ἔνθα καθεῦδε πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεὺς
6.2: ὕπνῳ καὶ καμάτῳ ἀρημένος· αὐτὰρ Ἀθήνη
6.3: βῆ ῥ' ἐς Φαιήκων ἀνδρῶν δῆμόν τε πόλιν τε·
6.4: οἳ πρὶν μέν ποτ' ἔναιον ἐν εὐρυχόρῳ Ὑπερείῃ,
6.5: ἀγχοῦ Κυκλώπων ἀνδρῶν ὑπερηνορεόντων,

Thus then there did he sleep, long suffering and divine Odysseus
overcome by sleep and toil. But nevertheless, Athena
went towards the land and country of the Phaeakians,
who at one time prior dwelt in spacious Hypereiei,
tightly bound to the Cyclopes, those exceedingly manly men,

6.6: οἵ σφεας σινέσκοντο, βίηφι δὲ φέρτεροι ἦσαν.
6.7: ἔνθεν ἀναστήσας ἄγε Ναυσίθοος θεοειδής,
6.8: εἷσεν δὲ Σχερίῃ, ἑκὰς ἀνδρῶν ἀλφηστάων,
6.9: ἀμφὶ δὲ τεῖχος ἔλασσε πόλει καὶ ἐδείματο οἴκους
6.10: καὶ νηοὺς ποίησε θεῶν καὶ ἐδάσσατ' ἀρούρας.

who plundered the Phaeakians, for they bested them in force and strength
whence, godlike Nausithoos, having made the Phaeakians rise up, led
and seated them in Skheriei, far from men who labor,
and he drove a wall around about for the city and built dwelling places
and made temples of the gods and allotted the arable lands.

>>22537753
pretty good I'd say, few things
>Hypereiei
the english translitteration would be Hyperia
>tightly bound
would rather go for "next to", tightly bound seems a stronger statement than ἀγχοῦ
>Skheriei
Scheria

>>22537959
Yea I went with literal transliterations for effect but I think using the traditional names might be better.

I know ἀγχοῦ can be next to but I took a liberty because I like the idea that the phaecians were bound unwillingly to the cyclopes

nisi cotidie legam (legero? lego?), obliviscar omnium quae didicerim

what tense should lego be in? also is the rest of the sentence alright?

>>22538081
difference between indicative and subjunctive here is related to how likely the «realistic» nevertheless hypothesis is
indicative = stronger, basically a fact, vs a realistic hypothesis with the present subjunctive, so that's up to you, though if the protasis is in the indicative then the apodosis should probably go in the indicative (future) too in this case
rest is fine I think

>>22538081
>what tense should lego be in?
I would think future perfect, as the action in the protasis, or more specifically the negation of it (since you used nisi), must occur before the action in the apodasis occurs. so I think it should be legero. also I don't think the relative clause should be subjunctive. if you simply mean to say "...which I have learned", because the main/principle verb of the clause (obliviscar) is future indicative, and so *not* a secondary/historical verb, I would think you'd just use a present indicative, so didici

>>22538160
>must occur
what I should've said more specifically is that it most be *completed* (but, again, because of nisi it's the negation of it)

>>22538160
>also I don't think the relative clause should be subjunctive. if you simply mean to say "...which I have learned", because the main/principle verb of the clause (obliviscar) is future indicative, and so *not* a secondary/historical verb, I would think you'd just use a present indicative, so didici
It's an indirect question isn't it? Like "quid ipse sentiam exponam", from Cicero.

>>22538180
>It's an indirect question isn't it?
obliviscor is not a verb of asking, inquiring, or telling; it's not used here as a deliberative subjunctive; it's not a verb of expectation or endeavor. there are other more particular cases where you would use an indirect question, but this is not one of them. also, you yourself inserted omnium, which would be the antecedent of the relative clause

>>22538209
>obliviscor is not a verb of asking, inquiring, or telling
Neither is intellegere and “quam sis audax omnes intellegere potuerunt” is still listed as an example of an indirect question in Allen and Greenough.

>>22532911
Isidore thought that ténebræ was a barbarism
(etym 1.1.33)

>Barbarismus est verbum corrupta littera, vel sono enuntiatum: littera, ut floriet, dum florebit dicere oporteat; sono, si pro media syllaba prima producatur, ut, latebrae, tenebrae.

>>22538239
>right, but quam is obviously an interrogative/exclamatory word here which can necessarily be turned into indirect question. relatives are simply further explanations of their antecedent, and that seems to be the sense here; not that of some hidden question, any sense of doubt, nothing being asked or told, etc. if I could ask, what exactly makes you think that it should be an indirect question?

>>22538239
right, but quam is obviously an interrogative/exclamatory word here which can necessarily be turned into an indirect question. relatives are simply further explanations of their antecedent, and that seems to be the sense here and seems to make the most sense; not that of some hidden question, any sense of doubt, nothing being asked or told, etc. if I could ask, what exactly makes you think that it should be an indirect question?

>take latin I
>summer course for 1 month
>summer courses shortened
>go through 15 wheelock chapters in 4 weeks aka 16 days ergo 1 day left for final
>can take latin 2 at same pace
>fuck that
>decide to take it in spring
I payed attention but I need to review and I should commend myself to work instead of simply asking for suggestions. Yet here I am.

>>22537753
The most charming, languid part of Homer.

So there much-suffering divine Ulysses slept,
Beset with toil and sleep; and so Athena
Went down upon the land of the Phaeacians,
who once before had lived in wide-ranged Upland,
nearby the overbearing Cyclops-men.

>>22538251
Speakers living in 600 would be the last people I'd ask for whether something is a barbarism.

>>22538209
>>22538329
I think I understand, but can the quid in "quid ipse sentiam exponam" not be thought of as a free relative clause without the antecedent id?

>>22538462
qui, quae, quod = relative, qui(s), quae, quid = interrogative

>>22538490
Weren't the interrogatives often used as relatives, even in antiquity?

>>22538580
dcc(dot)dickinson(dot)edu/grammar/latin/relative-interrogative-and-indefinite-pronouns

>σοὶ οὖν...ἔξεστι δυοῖν ὁπότερον βούλει ἑλέσθαι
from Lysias 1.18. my understanding is that εξεστι(ν) normally takes an accusative subject and infinitive verb for its subordinate clause, but I feel like βούλει goes with ὁπότερον in a relative clause. so, then, I would assume that the infinitive is an implied εἶναι. so, the sentence would be something like
>so you are allowed which of two (things/options) you wish to choose
it feels weird, but idk if that's just cus I don't understand it or the Greek is so different from English

>>22538977
ἔξεστί τινί [infinitive] is the usual business, the one for which it is possible in the dative, so there's no need for implied εἶναι, the infinitive is ἑλέσθαι and then I think there's an attraction i.e what is implied is the object of ἑλέσθαι which gets attracted by δυοῖν i.e literally "you get to pick (that) of the two whichsoever you desire"

>>22538977
nvm, I think ἑλέσθαι goes with ἔξεστι and βούλει doesn't take a complementary infinitive here

>>22538997
>the one for which it is possible in the dative, so there's no need for implied εἶναι
my initial assumption with εἶναι was that that was the main verb in the subordinate clause, so what was allowed/possible. but like you said, and I here >>22538999, I realize it makes more sense for ἑλέσθαι to be the infinitive
>which gets attracted by δυοῖν
I'm not sure what you mean. my understanding of 'attraction' in relative clauses is that a relative pronoun changes from what it would normally be morpholically based on its antecedent, but δυοῖν would seem to be the normal case here (genitive). the only real antecedent it could be here, to my knowledge, given ὁποτερον (which refers to two things only), would be πότερον. and πότερον δυοῖν would then be the normal noun phrase that is the object of ἑλέσθαι, so it's just a partitive genitive. unless you mean something else by 'attracted'. so if Lysias were to have written it all out it would be "it is possible/allowed for you to choose either of two (things) which you like/wish"

Anyone else switch between multiple Greek pronunciation schemes in their head? It's a little maddening. Maybe I should learn Modern Greek just to get it to stop.

>>22539040
I mean the implied relative pronoun in the accusative which would be the object of ἑλέσθαι and make the whole thing grammatically linear but which in practical speech is often omitted if it's also the object of another subordinate which explains what it is. I think we understand each other, it's just how one would rephrase the phrase more linearly to eviscerate the passages since "δυοῖν ὁπότερον βούλει" is basically the whole object of ἑλέσθαι.

>>22539064
nah, learned one, stick to one, at best I'm not as consistent as I'd like with the quality of vowels

>>22539081
I think I get what you mean, and while I could very well be wrong, I feel like I have a different view. maybe I can try to be more explicit and we can see where we stand
>I mean the implied relative pronoun in the accusative which would be the object of ἑλέσθαι
I would say that the implied object of ἑλέσθαι isn't a relative pronoun but a noun (phrase), specifically πότερον, which would be here an indefinite adjective used substantively. this implied πότερον would be the antecedent of ὁπότερον, here a relative pronoun in the accusative as the object of βούλει. I created a syntax tree to try to illustrate my sense of how things are layered. so 1 is the main sentence, 1.1 is dependent upon it, and 1.1.1 is dependent upon 1.1

>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRkUFBfVVqv5Tr2aZS4apFNpTJ-ys6VqeQxgsAI1v7cH5putIgchYWJAVGHuu0lWGmdD2DU7Vb1o7XH/pubhtml#

Are there more collections like this? I've been trying to download as much of the Sources Chrétiennes, Corpus Christianorum, and Loeb Classical Library as I can, but some of the links are kill.

>>22538023
You show an understanding of the Greek and can justify your translation choices. I think you do a good job. I dislike the use of Greek transliterations and much prefer the now canonized Latin ones.
I am now at a sufficient level of Greek that I can get past them. I often think in terms of the Greek names. However, translations generally a for a popular audience with no familiarity of Greek. The Classics and the pronunciation of antique names are already daunting enough. I would urge translators to not go against tradition and to use Latin names.

Bros what are your best books on the Etruscan language and culture? Seems like a very kino civilisation. Would love to know more, especially the impact it had on Latin

Part way through this after the fake coins there was an interesting piece about ancient hebrew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS3n9S09egg

>>22537753
ok bros I continue, pls no bully

6.11: ἀλλ' ὁ μὲν ἤδη κηρὶ δαμεὶς Ἄϊδόσδε βεβήκει,
6.12: Ἀλκίνοος δὲ τότ' ἦρχε, θεῶν ἄπο μήδεα εἰδώς.
6.13: τοῦ μὲν ἔβη πρὸς δῶμα θεὰ γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη,
6.14: νόστον Ὀδυσσῆϊ μεγαλήτορι μητιόωσα.
6.15: βῆ δ' ἴμεν ἐς θάλαμον πολυδαίδαλον, ᾧ ἔνι κούρη

But then he, having been overpowered by Death, departed to Hades,
Alkinoos at that time began to rule, knowing the counsels and plans of the gods.
Grey-eyed Athena then went to the home of Alkinoos,
meditating on the return home for great-hearted Odysseus.
She then came to the richly decorated inner chamber, in which the maiden

6.16: κοιμᾶτ' ἀθανάτῃσι φυὴν καὶ εἶδος ὁμοίη,
6.17: Ναυσικάα, θυγάτηρ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο,
6.18: πὰρ δὲ δύ' ἀμφίπολοι, Χαρίτων ἄπο κάλλος ἔχουσαι,
6.19: σταθμοῖϊν ἑκάτερθε· θύραι δ' ἐπέκειντο φαειναί.
6.20: ἡ δ' ἀνέμου ὡς πνοιὴ ἐπέσσυτο δέμνια κούρης,

slept, in frame and image like the undying,
Nausikaa, daughter of great-hearted Alkinoos;
and beside were two handmaidens, with beauty from the Graces,
on either side of the two doors, and these shining doors were closed.
But then, like a burst of wind, Athena hastened to the bed of the maiden

>>22539720
I see the point, it does keep your work within a certain bounded tradition. I believe Fagles makes the same choice and I appreciated it as it made the names more familiar.

Any recommended elizabethan/jacobean translations of classical lit? I've heard Chapman is actually pretty entertaining.

>>22542025
Hobbes' Thucydides

>>22542083
Hobbes has a strange tendency to just not translate parts of sentences.

Hebrewsisters, what's the best bilingual edition of the Tanakh? Should I get JPS, Koren, or Artscroll? Is there another decent one out there?

>>22541223
>But then he, having been overpowered by Death, departed to Hades,
>Alkinoos at that time began to rule, knowing the counsels and plans of the gods.
maybe more effect/clarity on the passing of the kingship, βεβήκει is pluperfect so Ναυσίθοος had reached(perfect+past) Ades, and then Alkinoos was ruling(already, imperfect) when Athene arrived

>>22542619
Use STEP on your PC. No one reads paper Bibles anymore, at least not scholars, that is. STEP is free and what you need at a minimum. Logos or Accordance are pretty standard.

>there is more difference between the middle English of the 14th century and modern English than there is between the Greek of the 4th century BC and modern Greek
Is this true? How can this be possible?

>>22519481
My understanding, and I'm not an expert or anything so I could be wrong, is that the vast majority of the writing we have recovered from Bronze Age semitic cultures are stuff like tax records, purchase receipts, and legal documents. Immensely valuable to archaeologists and historians but probably not pleasurable to read.

>>22543844
>how can this be possible?
I don't know that much about either language's history, but there are many potential, non-exclusive explanations. if you have a culture that cares about preserving its culture, language naturally being part of that, you can envison them making more conscious efforts to maintain the proscriptive form - whether through formal or informal means. also the contact/lack thereof with other cultures can affect how a language changes or stays more the same.

from what I've just seen on wiktionary, modern Greek is still fairly inflected, still more than old English was. also nouns seem to have up to four distinct declensions. this is just a guess based on the ancient Greek words I've looked up over my time studying it and seeing related modern Greek words on wiktionary, but I suspect there is considerably less loan words in modern Greek than in modern English. there's also other grammar/syntax and phonetic aspects that can be considered, but I don't know enough to speak on that

>>22543194
ah good point, thank you very much! I had great difficulty rendering this pluperfect. I was very confused as to why it was not merely an aorist.

Can someone please suggest a book to learn Ancient Greek? I want something in print and cheap (less than $10 on eBay).

Υεια σου φίλε μου

what are the benefits of learning greek as oppposed to latin solely for the mind?

>>22544809
Any, just get a cheap textbook. It doesn't matter, jsut get one and work through it. I found the below with a 10 second search, you should be able to find more
From Alpha to Omega Beginning Course in Classical Greek by Groten Revised Ed
Don't ask any more questions, don't reply, don't waste time worrying about 'the best'. Get a textbook and read it. Do all the exercises, readings and translations. Which one you pick matters less than studying.
Again, do not reply

>>22544889
>for the mind
maybe I don't know exactly what you mean, but I would expect there to be no major differences if you're someone whose native language(s) are quite unlike Latin and Greek. even if you're a native French speaker, say, I don't think learning Greek would have a substantial difference in improving parts of your mental faculties that learning a language improves compared to Latin. of course for that French speaker a lot more of their own language would be elucidated, especially etymologically, but I don't imagine that's exactly what you mean when you reference the mind

>be learning Russian
>meet verb cтpoить
>mmh "build", why does it remind me of something?
>think think, sounds a lot like στορέννυμι, to pave, level
>check
>*ding ding ding*

>>22543844
I think Greeks partly ""cheated"" by making the modern language more high register from a base that had diverged more, but still, they could because of such prestigious long literary tradition, I think that's a main culprit, or lack there of for english, considering also the Norman conquest and the role of French as court tongue, whereas I think Greeks basically never suffered that even when Romans conquered them they had the upper hand culturally

>>22541258
I seem to recall Fagles' was intelligently designed to be as smooth and familiar as possible to the common reader. He always sacrifices the original line numbering, but he never fails to render all place and character names in the familiar English rather than follow the old Roman names (like in Pope) or hyperliteral transliteration of the Greek (like in Fitzgerald).

>>22542619
Not bilingual, but I'd recommend Alter for English.

>>22528921
I am a Greek and I can assure you that the language hasn't changed too much during the last 2500 years. Depends how far back you go of course. I can understand 97% of the Bible which is written in Hellenistic Koine. I can understand 85% percent of Euclid's elements as well. But I find Homer very hard to parse. But even for his case there are a lot of recognizable words. Keep in mind Modern Greek has become very simplified and has dropped the dative case. Simple words have modern names but compound names keep the old roots.

moar homer, this passage is difficult because of the acc + inf but hopefully i did it ok

6.41: ἡ μὲν ἄρ' ὣς εἰποῦσ' ἀπέβη γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη
And having said these things, grey-eyed Athena departed
6.42: Οὔλυμπόνδ', ὅθι φασὶ θεῶν ἕδος ἀσφαλὲς αἰεὶ
to Olympus, where they say the seat of the gods is forever.
6.43: ἔμμεναι·

>>22520438
Unfortunately, I can not read Greek though it is one of my goals I wanted to achieve. I read the Adams’ translations. My opinion is similar to Galen’s as I find Hippocrates takes simple ideas and needlessly obfuscates them through rigorous language. Here is a link to Galen’s Preface to On Fractures. It has the original Greek alongside a translation by the blog writer which is very nifty.

https://www.ancientmedicine.org/home/2021/7/16/galens-commentary-on-hippocrates-on-fractures?format=amp

Hippo is definitely not a good writer by any means because of the obtuse language. This seems to have also been Galen’s opinion as well so I turn to him as a secondary source to back up my point.

bump

>>22547921
this one is pretty straightforward tbqh

Just read a translation of Qifa Nabki and I'm ready to Arabize. What resources are not shit?

I feel like such an idiot. Ive been learning latin for a while because I thought that greek sounded like a language that some greasy mustachioed man in a bathhouse would speak. I was pronouncing latin completely wrong this whole fucking time and it sounds tthe exact same as greek in reality

how the fuck do I roll my r's in latin without it sounding cringe? Im trying to say mercātor and it is to pronounced

Been studying Latin all year and now I'm about to start Greek today. Any advice on how to not fuck this up? I'm using Hansen and Quinn if that matters.

>>22552065

Latin is really easy to pronounce.

Ancient Greek is ridiculous. Some of it is brilliant and easy, other things sound just like a drunk Mexican cursing out a mule.

>>22552073
don't
>>22552081
study every day and keep at it. There is no magic trick, just study

>>22546246
Moлoдeц aнoн!

has anyone here any experience with 文言文?I'm taking a class in it this semester and would like to know any tricks and tips to the grammar if there are any

I am already familiar with 普通话

You guys DO read things directly from the manuscripts, right?

You aren't really getting the full experience otherwise, the way the work was meant to be read.

>>22553014
Wenyanwen is not Mandarin. Internalize this.
Know your verb forms. If you are having trouble with a passage it is more likely than not a question of verb forms.
Memorize lots of poems. It will vastly improve your recall and directly make you a more cultured, sensitive person besides.
Know your Analects inside and out.

>>22553232
if you haven't read this, sit your ass down and stop wasting my time

does anyone know about the peculiarity of words like ἡ ῥάβδος or ὁ δεσπότης and the development of gender and declensions in ancient Greek or proto-indo-european languages in general? or where to read about it?

cives don't think it be like it was, but it did

>>22520879
So what is the
> aesthetically appreciable literature
in Classical Syriac?

>>22521173
paid organized military vs greek seasonal conscripts

εξ ων συστημα το τελειοτατον απογεννεται

>>22552301
I don't believe in magic tricks. I was just wondering if anyone had tips transitioning from Latin.

>>22553537
wiktionary is often quite useful for this, like the της in δεσπότης is supposedly an imitation of the more regular agent noun της because it was originally something coming from dom+potis, with potis which coincidentally remained identical in Latin meaning powerful, so master of the house, dompotis with a cognate in Sanskrit
whereas the more regular της as in τοξότης is perhaps similar in development to Latin agent noun -a i.e incola, though idk if PIE or late PIE regularly formed masculine agent nouns with a typically femine/first declension -a

why aren't there any good old english dictionaries online

>>22554340
it only helps in that latin gives you familiarity with another highly inflected language, youd already be familiar with all the declensional cases (with slight modifications), verbs are way harder though

>>22556072
I'll try not to quit.

What is the best way to learn attic Greek when you are retarded? I just look up every word and then guess what it means it is very tedious and not motivating at all.

>>22553991
Mostly theology stuff, boring stuff. You can look it up online easily.
>>22556185
You need to find an intro grammar, like alpha to omega or athenaze

>>22556220
Thank you, Sir.

>>22554990
I appreciate the response, and I will definitely look more into the wiktionary etymologies. that said, I was more so looking for an in-depth discussion about, say, why there are any masculine first declension nouns at all, how declensions in general developed and how they formed the morphological endings they did. it's obviously not agentive specific, as there are feminine agentive suffixes. I know I could look up "proto-indo-european declensions" and probably find things related to what I'm talking about, but I wanted to pose them here first in case anyone had specific papers/articles/books they knew so I wouldn't have to potentially waste my time and read through content that's only tangentially related

>>22518296
I don't want to make a new thread but this place seems appropriate to ask: what is the best translation of Polybius' Histories? Is the Penguin translation good enough?

>>22521173
Greece was split into two different leagues which kept competing against each other under different alliances during the Macedonian wars as well Seleucid wars. During across several decades, each league found themselves fighting against Rome for different reasons. For instance, the Aetolian league sided with Rome during the first two Macedonian wars but they became pissed when they realised that Rome was getting too involved in Greek afairs so they sided with the Seleucids in their war against Rome.
The goal of Rome was to weaken everyone in Greece so that no state grew powerful enough to challenge them in the Mediterranean. They managed to progressively achieve this after every war, firstly with clever diplomacy and then with military action which became fairly brutal in order to instill fear in whoever dared to oppose them. Both leagues (and consequently city-states which belonged to each league) had their own pro and anti-Roman factions and given how the pro factions enjoyed a great deal of protection under Rome, they were free to trump the opposition thus increasing more reliance on Rome.
The Roman tactics were also superior to the Greek phalanx tactics hence why they managed to win the majority of battles. Furthermore, they had more experienced commanders and soldiers due to their participation in the Punic Wars.
In short, Rome was far more politically organised and had better military to deal with the Greeks who were far past heir prime at this point. In fact, the Greeks were just pawns during the wars between Rome and the Hellenistic dynasties left from the Diadochi wars.

>>22518296
Recent linguistic study deciphering some of the Indus Valley text as an early form of Sanskrit.
https://www.academia.edu/105134798/A_Partial_Decipherment_of_the_Indus_Valley_Script_Proposed_Phonetic_and_Logographic_Values_for_Selected_Indus_Signs_and_Readings_of_Indus_Texts
Thoughts?

>>22521001
Would Hippocrates always look like "horse-power" to the Greeks or would it look like a name first? Like Victor, people don't always think of the word "victor" first but see the name just as a name.

>>22557678
For horsepower we use the term ιπποδύναμη, Ιπποκράτης is still used as a name

am i insane for planning to learn Latin and Greek at the same time?

>>22558115
if you have enough free time and aren't the type to get overwhelmed by such a thing, then no.

For someone who knows Greek and Hebrew, which is a smoother transition - Arabic or Coptic?

don't really lurk this thread so sorry if it's a frequent question: anybody here speak old english? if so how did you learn/where do I start? English is my native language, I was able to learn German teaching myself, bit actually have the ability to speak that irl to other people which made things uncomplicated pic unrelated

>>22558115
I did this when I was unemployed and in losermode during the lockdowns. It wasn't the worst thing I could have done.

Any recommendations for software that can display the text of the Latin/Greek stuff I'm reading and have room for me to write notes on the side?

>>22558916
Unironically a printer.

>>22559085
Tell me what I should use ironically then.

>>22559096
Still a printer, just shoved up your ass

>>22558916
not sure it'd help much but on linux I used to use Xournal++ back when I scanned the hexameter manually, there's a bunch of tools like pen, line, arrows, text, etc... and the file is saved as a separate format from the PDF or whatever original file you read

Where are the NONNUS enjoyers at

Humanists were based

I just started Greek and I must say having to sit through all this accent nonsense before even touching the verbal system is giving me a fucking headache. I already spent forever trying to figure out how the fuck to pronounce this shit since autists won't stop arguing about which is "correct". Just give me a fucking verb chart and some shit to read fucking goddamnit. I don't care about pitch and tones and all this irrelevant crap.

>>22559877
>having to sit through all this accent nonsense before even touching the verbal system
you don't have to do that, actually

>>22559925
Thanks I'm skipping it.

>>22560051
you should study it at least a little every day. get too far without understanding accents and it will bite you in the ass later
>muh correct pronunciation
just pick one and stick with it

>>22559925
>you don't have to learn accents at first
>>22560210
>you do have to learn accents at first

Nice to see Greekchads have more clarity than Latincels.

>>22559877
accents get ignored by nearly everyone in practice, since most people studying Greek can't do pitch accent without a decent amount of work. This is unfortunate but even I mostly ignore the accents, even though I probably shouldn't and should try doing it.

>>22559877
I don't remember struggling much with the accent system, don't know how you niggas get filtered by it, maybe it's a matter of resources, because the laws of limitation all make sense when you understand the whole contonation&morae thing. Also pronunciation doesn't really matter much when it comes to following the accent system i.e you can perfectly follow the pitch accent by realizing the sounds qualitatively as a modern Greek would, or one could go for old Attic sounds while completely disregarding the pitch.
I'm going to say you are going to make things easier for yourself if you do at least try from the beginning to pronounce things properly, if you later plan to read poetry maybe you are going to regret not hammering the basic rhythm of the language in your mind from the beginning.
This online resource was very useful to me http://atticgreek.org/accent/accentuation.html

>>22559877
a 4th century BC Athenian actor was laughed off stage because he mispronounced a circumflex and ended up saying another word. it was over before it began for you

Is Hatto's English translation of The Nibelungenlied still considered the go-to? And is the Penguin edition okay?

>>22559782
>non habendum esse cum femina commercium
kek

>>22561444
There won't be many people who know MHG better than they know modern, in which case they'd read a translation to modern German instead of one to English.

A question for those of you who are learning attic Greek, are you able to read Anabasis yet?

>>22558209
I know Greek, Hebrew, a few other languages, and I am learning Coptic. Based on everything I know, if you're only trying to learn Classical Arabic, Arabic is the easier language of the two to learn.

Would people take my philosophy more seriously if I wrote about it in Latin?

>>22562594
in some sense yes, but very miniimally imo. there's an element of dedication it would show, which some would find admirable, but ultimately most people can't read Latin and so they wouldn't be able to fully form any opinion about it
>>22562230
more or less yeah. I mean of course there are particular structures I haven't encountered or need refreshed on a little bit, but in general it's a pretty easy read with a dictionary. afaik it's commonly used in 3rd semester ancient Greek courses for how accessible it is after a generic first year of basic grammar study

>>22562594
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quidquid_Latine_dictum_sit_altum_videtur

>>22562304
>Arabic is the easier language of the two to learn.
This is very disconcerting considering how hard Arabic is. Can Coptic really be this brutal?

At what point do you pick up another language?
I am able to read texts well enough so that I'm not searching up every word in a sentence but not well enough to call it reading fluently

>>22563030
Why do I have to explain myself to you?

>>22563030
When the language you're currently learning has become so much a part of you that you no longer have to think about studying it, and there is almost never an instance of you not understanding a sentence for lack of grammatical knowledge, that's when I think it's best to start a new language.

>>22520970
Classical Latin didn't really have modern punctuation anyway.

>>22562970
>This is very disconcerting considering how hard Arabic is. Can Coptic really be this brutal?
I don't know anything about Coptic, but Classical Arabic has near unlimited resources and is very well-documented in terms of grammar. It's hard but it's just a matter of putting in the time. I'd imagine Coptic is more obscure and that makes it harder to self-teach.

Are there Loebs but for other Euro languages? I know about Bude and Reclam but what about say, Italian or Spanish?

>>22562970
Coptic is an Egyptian language. Arabic is a Semitic language. Arabic has more in common with Hebrew than Hebrew and Greek have with Coptic. Coptic has an unusually large number of Greek loanwords, but vocabulary pretty much means nothing. The grammar of Coptic is quite foreign. I've heard multiple horror stories about Coptic and am friends with one guy who says it's the easiest language he has learned, but he's weird. The difficulty of a language doesn't deter me anymore. I have learned and excelled in several languages when I was supposedly incapable of learning them. Do what you like, anon, but do it with persistence and determination.

Just took my first lesson in ancient Greek. I was absolutely confused before. Now I can sort of read half the alphabet and can mostly guess how words sound instead of just looking at squiggly lines. Feelsgoodman.

capituli duodevicesimi legere meum nuper factum est iam etiam felixpostum scribebo et faciam imaginem ranae

>>22566864
εὖγε παῖ
one step at a time

>>22562970
>>22565232
>>22565783
Coptic is the only language on the planet that has anything approximating a functioning prefixed case system. Every other language on Earth either has a strictly suffixing case system or a mixed prefixing and suffixing case system.

I hope you found this fact fun.

>>22566864
From where’s?

>>22566864
You are me when I was seven or eight and checked out the Greek alphabet book from the library and then wondered why none of the words made any sense because I assumed it was the same as regular English but in a different alphabet.

can greekchads critique my pronunciation? besides the occasional t/th k/kh confusion slipup and general stumbling which i recognize already, im too lazy to redo it, also its a more faithful representation of how i usually scan greek
https://voca.ro/14rjdokqU5jJ

>>22533005
>Everyone who gives you this rule expects you to remember wtf mutes and plosives are

>>22567591
θανκς!
>>22568046
My university.
>>22568076
I like reading words I don't understand, the thing with Greek was that I couldn't even process the alphabet at first. I see the symbols but I'd have no idea what they represent, so it'd basically come off as just a bunch of squiggly lines to me. Now I can look at a word like ἀγέλη and have some general idea of what it sounds like. Which is pretty cool.

>>22519481
the psalms are beautiful Hebrew poems

Holy shit, thank you so much for this thread. I don't come on /lit/ much these days, though I often have in the past. These mega archives are great. I've been studying Greek and Latin for years, but usually would just have to use open libraries and know what I was looking for. I can peruse this for days or years even.

Do you have original document scans, like in the OP image? I would dearly love to read that particular book, in fact, because it is Greek-Latin interlinear. Interlinear texts are a favorite of mine, as well as handwritten script.

>>22568237
mmh ok I guess, few things I noticed; it seems you don't avoid the correptiones atticae when you meet them? i.e you pronounce Ἄϊδι προΐαψεν as A-i-dī(lenghtening the ι) pro-i-ap sen, instead of A-i-dip ro-i-ap sen
likewise in δὴ τὰ πρῶτα you seem to lengthen the α in τὰ to pronounce πρ together, instead of dē-tap-rō-ta
albeit I'm not sure if this is another possible metrical reading, i.e to lengthen some otherwise short vowels in order to always make mute consonants and liquid ones go together like Latin usually does
the reading of Τίς τ’ ἄρ σφωε θεῶν ἔριδι ξυνέηκε μάχεσθαι; seems off as well, metrically speaking

overall some lines seem read very well, others it feels like you are trying to go too fast so you mess up the meter, e.g the last part of ἁζόμενοι Διὸς υἱὸν ἑκηβόλον Ἀπόλλωνα, which admittedly is an unusual ending since it has long-long-long-short instead of the usual long-short-short-long-short

Have you ever sensed you were on the verge of a breakthrough in your target language, been in a flow state and really started internalizing the syntax as you read? Sometimes I can feel it bros. Sometimes I think I'm so close. Other times all meaning vanishes and I'm back to decrypting into English...

Where do I find classical Arabic books? Is there some kind of series like OCT, etc. for Greek and Latin?

>>22568792
>original document scans
There are some in the Mega. They tend to be huge files

>>22568792
OG docs are all over archive. search latin greek interlinear or some combination of those and you will find plenty

>>22569066
thanks this is very good info

Why should one learn a classical language?
I feel like I should do it because it's what fancy oxford people do but I don't know what it would be useful for other than seeming smart and refined.

>>22570907
>seeming smart and refined
depending on the person, it might also make you seem like a pretentious douchebag. that aside, if you don't actually care about the language(s) themselves and/or want to read literature in that/those language(s), then learning is a waste of time

>>22570907
I am trying to learn it for the sake of reading obscure astrological and philosophical treatises. My advice? Find a better motivation. Oxford people are actually retarded so unless you plan to avoid them forever, your first encounter with one of them will destroy your motivation.

>>22562230
I found that especially near the end some of those speeches can get kinda confusing

Redpill me on Old English.

>>22570907

You shouldn't necessarily learn it fluently, or even try, but it's good to take a sip out of many different languages, especially the classics, or ones like Sanscrit, Finnish, Norwegian, Latin, Greek, and yes, horrifically yes, even a little Arabic.

But also Chinese and Japanese, of course, along with at least seeing a little bit of the culture of African tribes. They might not have writing, but it's good to see what humans do and how they think.

There's no fucking way they actually spoke like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om1zQLxNRvk

>>22528921
dekaglossai recommended this specifically for ancient greek because it's unusually conservative and because learning material for modern greek is much more widely available than ancient greek. he's an advocate for the pedagogy style of consuming as many expressions as possible in the target language, so if you find that more structured learning is better for you then maybe it isn't as applicable advice.

>>22571412
Highly recommend listening to Beowulf in Old English. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdz_kMwW3Rw&list=PLaN2-enaIS4Q_CAYyqOyQlTcakKOgqBJN

You can really feel this if you are a true Anglo-Saxon. It vibrates in your blood somehow. This is all the redpill you need, sir.

>>22556185
Clyde Pharr Homeric Greek and just stick to it, its that easy

>πρόσταγμα

>>22559877
literally just refer to this page if you dont know the pronunciation of a letter, learn all the basic sounds of the letters and dipthongs (its all intuitive) so that you can vocalise greek words in your head
dont worry about pitch accent until you feel like learning it (this is also super easy and takes minutes to learn)

honestly just sounds like youre making excuses and wasting more time posting than it takes to learn the basic of phonology/accent
you havent even started yet, if youre already complaining then just give up

>>22571960
people who dont already know a pitch accented language such as japanese tend to way overexaggerate the intervals in pitch when reading greek
also I believe ancient greek quantity is very similar to japanese quantity and its another thing that people who speak stress accented languages get wrong

>>22572413
>literally just
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_accent

Surely, you follow all that?
Surely, you don't just sound like you're speaking english (with the english r and every long vowel gliding into a different sound etc.) while insisiting you speak "reconstructed attic" by spitting on yourself when trying to pronounce θ?
Surely, you don't sound like a yodeling autist (see >>22571960 ) and you insist in following the "reconstructed pitch accent" and smirk to yourself thinking about barbaric stress accent?

>>22570907
I started learning Greek because it was mandatory at my school but now I'm just learning it because I love reading Greek authors, but the other students who didn't just dropped it once it wasn't mandatory. So learn a classical language if you want to read the authors, and don't if you don't want to or are fine with translations.

>>22556185
Other guy is right that starting with Homeric is better. Homeric gets you reading more comprehensible input since he's pretty repetitive, so you can more often infer a word based on context.

does anyone have any recommendations for reading supplements? I am using JACT at my university, and i'm working through it well, memorizing all the grammar, yet i feel like i haven't internalized it properly as there just isn't enough reading material. any advice?

>Quot convīvae in singulīs lectīs accubant? In singulīs lectīs aut singulī aut bīnī aut ternī convīvae accubāre solent. Cum igitur paucissimī sunt convīvae, nōn pauciōrēs sunt quam trēs, cum plūrimī, nōn plūrēs quam novem — nam ter ternī sunt novem.)
could you imagine having less than three guests over to your triclinium

>>22573013
Italian Athenaze
'A First Greek Reader' - Beresford
Ancient Greek reddit has some others
As for easy authors:
Apollodorus Bibliotheca
Babrius
Novelists
New Testament

>>22573046
thank you very much

>>22573003
He recommended a textbook. Do you even read greek or are you just repping your favorite learning method

>>22573044
Not much of a party if it's just two dudes hanging out.
In case you're wondering, these numbers come from Varro, as quoted by Gellius.

>>22572530
you learn ancient greek to read, retard
who fucking cares if youre not pronouncing it in your head perfectly as long as you adhere to basic phonology and have a system that is consistent and that you dont have to think about
you are ngmi

>>22573046
The novelists? No, you shouldn’t start with Petronius because his language use is too odd. Petronius at least, should come later. Many words he uses are unique to himself which isn’t a good thing for learners.

>>22573046
https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/zef6zc/petronius_satyricon_difficulty_level/

Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/10kbnul/past_participle_in_petronius_cena_trimalchionis/

>This usage of "fefellitus" for "falsus" is meant to be comic. The speaker is saying he's not easily tricked, but he doesn't even know the right way to say "tricked."

Something like that isn’t good for a new learner.

>>22573046
>In fact neither the freedmen nor Trimalchio himself speak correctly. This has of course interested linguists, and we still don't know whether we are witnessing "real" spoken Latin from lower classes, or if it's purely artificial.

Did people say fefellitus? This word is not attested elsewhere. Neither in the classical corpus, nor in the epigraphical record, nor in romance languages.

>>22518296
This page is so pretty man... People were so superior in the past

the hardest part about studying the classics is coming to find out how many liberties the "translators" have taken. why did they betray

>>22574522
Ex Apollineum medicine

It’s On Ancient Medicine which is Hippocrates’ basic treatise on medicine. A good read if you have an hour to kill.

>>22573013
theres a whole bunch of victorian era and early 20th c readers that you can prob find a compilation of somewhere, one of the most famous is A Greek Boy at Home by Rouse
I believe the ancient greek subreddit has a good list of readers
as for modern readers, Cultura Clasica's readers are excellent
they published Logos: Lingua Graeca Per Se Illustrata which is a beginners intro to Greek which is the closest approximation of LLPSI for Greek that I know of
their Mythologica is more intermediate level and they have a few others

>>22574176
>>22574187
He's talking about Greek, why bring up Petronius?

>>22568792
You should look in specific collections for manuscripts. For instance, HMML should have some Byzantine manuscripts, probably mostly Christian. The British Library and Vatican Library are sure to have some heavy hitters.

>>22572413
Dude I wasn't making excuses and I already started like a week ago. I was just overwhelmed and was venting about the phonological info-dump in the introduction of my textbook. Maybe stop over analyzing shitposts with wojaks.

for me it's lingua puparum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWEaDis7Udg

pump

>finally find Latin translation of Homer
>from 1560 with dogshit type

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFVwSPsmXvI

Do anglos simply don't do accents or what

>>22577558
this one doesn't seem to even care much about not sounding straight up anglo, so much so that his trademark anglo π actually sounds like a perfect realization of φ

>>22573083
wtf are you even talking about? the method in Homeric Greek is the one I'm "repping".

>>22577558
Yeah iirc at some point a major anglo researcher straight up said "accents don't matter, we don't fuck with that" and since he was foundational to the anglo tradition, everyone after him followed his example.

>>22577533
shoulda learned greek

Is Ancient Greek worth learning if I'm not willing to take classes for it or dedicate a significant portion of my life to it? Are its difficulties exaggerated, or is it true that it just becomes torturous after a while? Is it not something I can pick up as a hobby and autodidact my way through for a couple years?

>>22578986
You can absolutely do it with just a textbook and as an autodidact as long as you are intelligent and diligent. It's not really insanely hard unless you specifically want to be able to sight read difficult authors. If you don't mind that you'll always be in some stage of "learning," you can get up to the point that you're basically reading and enjoying Greek within six months or a year of self-study. If all you're looking to do is read with the aid of interlinears and parallel texts then you can get by with even less than that. But I do recommend going hard on the grammar and morphology so you get the fundamentals down.

>>22518296
Does anyone have this video?

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/greek-101-learning-an-ancient-language

>>22578986
I'm in a similar boat. Went all-in on Latin and reached a fairly decent level in 6 months. Recently started Greek but I'm a lot busier now, to the point where I can maybe do two chapters of my textbook and read two Athenaze chapters per week.
As a result, I tend to forget vocabulary at a much higher rate than when I was studying Latin every day. I wonder if I'll be able to pull it off, since Greek is indeed much more complex with the extra moods and tenses.

>>22578986
this >>22579014
choose a textbook (I recommend Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek) and stick to it and study every day, even if only for a few mins
some days you might fly through a chapter, other times maybe you spend a week on a chapter, just as long as youre making progress every day youll find in a few months youll have made more progress than you expected
its not hard at all if you take it step by step as its laid out in the book, it just takes time

It seems like all the Latinbros finished (or quit) and started Greek at the exact same time lol.

Anybody else find Greek charming and engaging, but find Latin vulgar for some reason?

>>22579339
I've been studying Latin for about three months now but I seemingly have an obsession or desire to learn Greek, mainly to read the Septuagint and New Testament

>>22579347
The Greeks did.

>>22580010
>mainly to read the Septuagint and New Testament
what's up with all the retards in classical language communities learning Greek to read goyslop hylic golem Greek second language shit?

You could be getting bitches, but you decided to stay inside and study Greek. If you are under 20, really re-evaluate your life choices if you are studying Latin or Greek.

>>22580206
Knowing latin or greek actually gets you bitches. Stop being a faggot.

>>22580224
>Knowing latin or greek actually gets you bitches.
Every time I say that I study Greek and Latin, women either insult me to my face or just say "why?"

>>22580206
I sincerely doubt that anybody here is under 20.

>>22580227
>Every time I say that I study Greek and Latin
So never.

I've had at least a dozen female adult women say multiple words to me whilst making eye contact since learning Latin and Greek: we *will* make it bros

>>22580288
> Fuck off, creep

>>22580288
what did he mean by this?

>>22580306
only half of 'em have said that, which is progress (progredior -> progressus -> progress)

>>22579337
i strongly recommend against pharr's homeric greek, it will baffle and frustrate a newbie unless they're highly motivated

get JACT 2nd ed Reading Greek or maybe hansen and quinn

>>22580227
Where are you from? I'm from a latinx cunt and when I talk about latin people ask about the exorcism and shit, so you have a cause for talking even with dumb bitches. Get away of that rude people, anon, and as I said before, stop being a faggot, you are now a chad classical language knower.

>>22580412
That makes sense in a latinx country where people are still religious somewhat, but I'm from canada and most women are not religious.

>>22580412
not them, but I'm from the US and the only girls that seem to be interested are "witches" I legit have a girl say on the first day of my Latin class this semester that she's basically a witch and/or lit/history nerds. everyone else I imagine would be either indifferent or weirded out by it

>>22580378
>get JACT 2nd ed Reading Greek
What's wrong with the first edition? (I have the first edition)

>>22579339
I just read texts on Perseus, no formal study, but yeah I recently sidetracked myself from the Aeneid to go back to Homer and read him in the original.

>>22579347
Sounds like contrarianism, Latin is obviously the smoother of the two languages and its poetic corpus is generally more mannered and gentle. You'd have to provide some reasoning in order for this to read as anything other than "I am le quirky".

>>22580227
>>22580422
Curse them in Latin. Also I am a turbo virgin so don't listen to my advice but it seems infinitely better to have an approach where your success or failure is not tied to appearing "normal". I would imagine that if you can take shit like that in stride, deal with petty judgments lightheartedly/jokingly, double down and impress her with your skill and passion, etc., you will have cracked the code.

>>22580810
>contrarianism
not them, but my experience has been that Greek is in general seen as superior by retrospective learners. I've even seen it as something of a meme that people interested in classics "come for Latin, stay for Greek."

>>22580823
Superior, sure. But he specifically said "charming" and "vulgar", when the conventional wisdom (based in reality, as far as I can tell) is that Latin is the more "charming", feminine language, and Greek the "vulgar", masculine one. Makes sense in terms of both their sounds and the historical context in which each literature blossomed. But I have a very superficial and empirical knowledge of both languages, maybe the underlying mechanics of Greek really are more sophisticated in a way that can be described as "charming".

Gentle and mannered was intended as a recommendation of Latin literature over the Greek, either. Greek literature is an extremely special case.

>>22580863
>he specifically said
>he
woah there, anon. this is 2023, where we ask someone for their preferred pronouns before gendering them. do better.
>the conventional wisdom... is that Latin is the more "charming", feminine language, and Greek the "vulgar", masculine one
that may be true, and OP may know that, but I still wouldn't call that contrarianism. my sense of the term, at least, is that there's an intentional element to it. OP could simply be contrary but only as an indirect consequence of genuinely liking Greek more than Latin for whatever reason

>>22580898
Well yes, I took it as intentional, as it usually is with "anyone else?"-posting. But whatever, I don't care enough to sift through the exact particulars of it all, just seemed silly to me.

NOVUM
>>22580970
>>22580970
>>22580970

>>22580951
>as it usually is with "anyone else"-posting
that's fair, I just think they could simply be expressing something they know/think is not the norm but do not have any ulterior motives for stating it. though the vulgar aspect as well does give credence to your original assumption. they could very well be a contrarian ultimately

>>22580422
Then make yourself interesting, anon, don't say shit like "I study latin", while you talk with the dumb bitch, you cite some nice passage and impress the dumb bitch, do it with short things, like a single verse or anything that sound cool. Like the "omnia vincit amor and shit". Don't get sad, anon, canadian girls will suck your BWC soon.