/lit/ - Literature

post greek frogs

>>22462589
χρή σε Ἑλληνιστὶ τόδ' αἰτεῖν οὐ μὰ Δία βαρβαριστί!

>>22462643
η άκρη του πέους μου πονάει

>Brevī nāvis ē cōnspectū eius abiit neque iam ūllum vēlum in mari cernēbātur
>...and not a single sail was discerned on the sea

>>22462548
Plato was a hermetic. So was moses. So we're the templars and masons.

>>22462914
We are the templars and masons?

Total LLPSIfaggots death

>>22462548
I took a year of Latin courses and have a beginner's understanding of the language. What are some non-LLPSI beginner Latin texts to read? I have nothing against it theoretically but the material itself is so boring compared to the actual sources we would read in class.

>>22463096
Isn’t Caesar’s De Bello Gallico the standard beginner text? Maybe try that.

>>22463096
here on /clg/™ we often suggest Eutropius or Lhomond's De Viris Illustribus, both can be found on the Latin library website

>>22463096
Martial's Collection of Shitposts

>>22463109
>>22463224
>>22463232
do you have any experience with petronius or nepos? how much harder are they compared to caesar for example?

>>22463261
nepo isn't too difficult. try this:
https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/nepos/nepos.han.shtml

>>22463261
mmh, from what I recall Nepos is more or less around the same difficulty as Caesar, between them I'd choose based on topic of interest

>>22463109
>https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/nepos/nepos.han.shtml
>>22463224
>>22463232
>>22463261
>>22463270
>>22463272
thanks anons, these are about my reading level and are far more interesting to read.

for me it's anglosyntactized inter-linear translations

>>22462847
της ψωλής μου*
ή "της πούτσας μου" / "του πούτσου μου"

Does Caesar ever get non-boring?

>>22463395
Absolute barbaricus

>>22463261
Petronius is extremely difficult because he uses lots of words and phrases which are entirely unique to himself and which appear nowhere else. Some speculate the words were a form of low class, Vulgar Latin. Do not start with Petronius.

>>22463561
No.

>>22463561
>reads a military report
>"why is this boring?"

>>22463096
Dickinson College Commentaries website, Latin texts section, has a bunch

Might want to try blasting through Cambridge Latin vols. 1-4 and seeing if the plots/texts are better than the LLPSI stories. At least the first 2-3 volumes go by in a flash and may get your Latin back up to snuff through extensive reading.

any resources on classical esperantoj?

How to translate "has begun"?
>The tree has begun to rot
Coepit is began but coeperat is HAD begun.
Maybe I don't know enough about grammar.

>>22464368
Latin's perfect tense includes English's sense of the present and progressive perfect. Coepit can mean
>began
>has begun
>has been beginning

Any advice on alternative methods of learning a text besides straight translation and vocabulary lists? For the longest time I've made vocabulary lists for texts for school, noting every aspect I can about words I don't know or remember and then reading thru it again, list in hand, until I'm able to memorize what goes where and how. However, I am nervous this is not something I should keep doing because I don't feel as though I'm improving. It helps me understand the text, but I feel as though I'm not getting the language if that makes sense. Any help would be appreciated.
>t. Classicsfag in grad school

>>22464575
Unironically nail your phonetics and memorize lots of short to medium poems.

>>22464575
>t. Classicsfag in grad school
There's your problem

Is it wise to continue in a Latin seminar whose professor uses a mix of classically restored and american english pronunciation? Also he says 'dei' with the wrong stress.

>>22465818
as long as you don't let yourself get dragged into a shit pronunciation by not trying to rise above it, why not, you can work on a more consistent and classical pronunciation yourself
they should be mutually intelligible anyway

>>22465818
agree with >>22466037. as long as you can understand your professor and care about pronunciation enough, you can just be more conscious of it and study it on your own time and use the restored classical pronunciation yourself. and if somehow a weird pronunciation slips into your own phonetics of the language, it can easily be fixed through conscious effort; at least that's been my experience

>>22463416
Χρησιμοποιώ το google translate μιας και δεν ξέρω να γράφω στα ελληνικά ακόμα
Ευχαριστώ!

>Tum filius tuos intro iit videre, ut venit, quid agat
>videre
supine insisters, is it over for us?

>>22463261
Nepos is pretty easy and a really good introduction to standard literary style. I also find him 10x more interesting than reading about Caesar making camp and then breaking it down and then marching and then making camp again.

>>22463696
Agreed. The Greek vocabulary is substantial too, and they're usually very specialized words

>>22467113
Doesn't Vergil use the infinitive of purpose a fair bit? Seems like it's mostly restricted to poetry though

>>22467113
supine won cause it's prettier, infinitive of purpose losers stay losing

>>22467398
>mostly restricted to poetry though
I've seen it in Apuleius and/or Petronius, but I would assume you're right. though the context of the works might matter - e.g. Petronius' Cena and the less elevated speech of the once-slave-now-freemen - and different time periods might see changes in trends, whether prose or poetry

>>22467438
Could you cite it in Petronius? I believe you, I just want to look at the context

>>22467762
I might've seen it in Petronius but I don't remember, that's why I said "and/or". I just remember reading them in a class last fall and those were the two figures we read and I explicitly remember our professor talking about it. I just don't remember exactly from which author it was. if it was in Apuleius it was in book 1 of his golden ass. if it was petronius it was in the cena

βαμπερινό

>>22467762
Petronius’ Latin is intentionally garbled to show his characters’ low social class and poor education. That’s not something you should take as definitive language rules.

I can't stop stoodying and I can't help but think it's more addiction than self-improvement. How to justify the selfish pursuit of knowledge?

>>22469370
what do you do besides study?

>>22469377
post about studying

>>22469370
At least you are studying. I am "studying" by reading Latin for maybe 10 to 15 minutes every now and then. I haven't touched my grammar book in weeks

>O creatura, quam solitaria videris!
>Creem tibi comitem, quae nocentissima excelso te ductabit paradiso in vitam laboris dolorisque
>Tanto inhonesta omnino quando Fraus ipsa, nimirum te lacerabit, laceratumque te miserum abiciet

>>22467000
Well what you said wasn't wrong, it translates as
>The tip of my penis is at pain (hurts)
ψωλή/πούτσος/πούτσα mean cock/dick instead of penis.

I have good news to report. I recently started learning Coptic, and I have found a new project (linguistic) that I could easily do. My colleagues agree that this is a good idea and could become an article. No one, according to my Coptic-knowing friend, has done this study before.
>t. Ethiopianon

>>22463907
Has Esperanto tranny stopped following the thread?

>>22469909
>quando
I wrote quanto by the way. I blame Gboard's Latin keyboard.

>>22469370
what else do you have going in your life? No shame in having a primary hobby.

>>22469971
Riiight...
Just take the L, dude.

Any of you guys try and write latin couplets? Following the metrical rules is so fucking difficult.

>>22469968
I saw an esperanto "speaker" once and he was also a tranny kek

How do we complete the system of Latin spelling reformation? I just want to quum

>Cum puer autem hos versus magistro suo dedisset, hic, excellentiam versuum miratus, timuit, ducens scientiam in illis divinam, non humanam

I've been staring at this passage for 20 mins now and I can't figure out what "ducens scientiam in illis divinam" is supposed to mean here. My best guess is something like "The divine knowledge leading into these".

>>22471078
>"the divine knowledge leading into these"
answer these questions: what case is 'ducens', what case is 'scientiam divinam', what does 'illis' refer to?

>>22471078
duco can also and often mean reckon/consider, especially when it comes to opinion, kinda like censeo

>>22471118
Thanks, I totally forgot about that.

So, what is the emerald tablet really about?

How to get started with the Indic languages?

Any recommendations for a modern biography on Cicero?
I want to read Cicero but would like to get started with a scholarly biography which gives you a lot of info about the Rome of his day

>>22464582
What are some good easy poems to memorize? I've tried a few, but found it rather difficult compared to memorizing bits of prose.

>>22471518
Abbott's Selected Letters of Cicero has a lengthy introduction going over Rome, Cicero's life and language, etc. as well as commentating over 100 letters

>>22469957
Is Coptic hard?

>>22471429
Learn Latin and Greek and then try Classical Sanskrit and from there you can do Pali which is like Koine or Vedic which is like Homeric.

I get that the classic languages aren't the best for this, but are there any programs that have audiobook learning of a language where they say something like "the apple is over there" and then say it in the other language too?

>>22472837
I'd guess you may be able to find Anki decks built somewhat in this fashion, e.g https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1698672280

>>22471518
Can you read German? Gelzer's biography is supposed to be good.

best books to get into greek? I know English, Portuguese and German, any resource on those language would be appreciated.

I don't know if this question has been asked already so forgive if it has.
Are there any books like LLPSI but for Attic Greek?

>>22474018
Athenaze, if possible the Italian version(two books with more reading material than the original)

Should I start with Latin or Greek?

>>22471657
>found it rather difficult compared to memorizing bits of prose
This is why I said to nail your phonetics first. With proper rendition of syllable weights it should be as easy as memorizing rhymes. Do not use ecclesiastical for this: regardless of your feelings on pronunciation schemes, it is objectively utterly ineffective for quantitative meter.
After that, Martial. He uses simple language and wide vocabulary in almost always the same meter. This makes him very effective for our purposes. If you want someone nobler, you could also go with Horace. It doesn't matter who you start with: it matters that you do it a lot.

>>22474470
Why do you expect someone else to tell you this? To make inroads on either will take obsessive levels of engagement and reengagement. Pick the one you are obsessed with and no other. Statistically you will not get far anyway unless your obsession defies statistics.

wtf happened to facior, facī

>>22474785
what are you talking about? not kidding

>>22471078
When the boy had given the verses to his teacher, he, admiring the excellence of the verses, was fearful, believing divine knowledge in them, not human.

>>22474785
suppletion
it's interesting because the etymologically related Greek φύω although in its basic sense means to grow, it has often a similar semantic meaning to fio i.e receiving the action of "facio" hence be made = be

>>22474520
>nail your phonetics first

How do you practice this? I don't think I can pick it up from reading alone.

>>22475317
Read a phonetics textbook and the Wikipedia page on Latin esp various meters again and again. Drill until you can hear it in your head. I don't know what else to tell you. I can't do the work for you. If you as a grad student cannot hear Latin accurately in your head then there is something wrong.

>>22475787
>>22475317
No, actually, someone can help you. If you are in your first year then please go to some colleague's office hours and tell them that you need help really hearing Latin meter. You will get better help than from the Internet. If you are not first year then damn you are a good scammer.

>>22462914
so was Hegel

>>22463395
genius

>>22469387
lol

>>22469370
I have this feel. For me study has become a form of extreem escapism. I never thought I'd be saying that.

>>22469370
>>22475826
i've been feeling the same way but honestly i haven't had this much fun with greek in a long time.

>sight reading caesar within a million words
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQK6TUvKlzc&t=3268s

>>22462589
Dang. RIP frog.

Amandas and Mandys were just supposed to be loved

>>22477414
This guy has been reading shitty amazon novellas for over 300 days instead of just doing a textbook and then buying a fucking dictionary just to prove a point that Stephen Krashen is the second coming of Jesus and "grammar is le bad". There's some personality type where people feel the need to do the opposite of what successful people tell them to do just so they can prove something to themselves or to the universe or whatever. Idk. Good luck copying this clown I guess.

>>22472837
I'm not sure what languages you're interested it, but the YouTube channel Aleph with Beth does this with Biblical Hebrew.

>>22475795
>grad student

I am a middle aged man learning Latin for fun in my spare time. I'm afraid the internet is my only resource.

Collecting essential interjections before my travels.
>heus
>io
>fufae
>abracadabra
Am I missing any?

>>22479418
Obviously ecce. Consider also:
>eheu
>hahae
>hercle/mehercle
>papae
>tatae
>viden

>>22462548
hello I have a linguistics question
I want book reccs on basic languages
specifically I'm interested in how languages formed.
things like how is there a word like 'but' in so many languages and did it derive from others or did they all evolve independently. basically I'm looking for just a layman's book on this interesting stuff

>>22469946
>cock/dick instead of penis.
what's the difference lol?

How is it possible to learn 8+ languages in one lifetime? Wouldn't you forget vocabulary and the gramatical rules overtime? No one can keep hundreds of thousands of words and rules memorized for a long period of time, it's just impossible. You can learn, at most, 4 languages, more than that and it just becomes an impossible endeavor unless you're a 1 in 1 million genius.

>>22480014
An above average human being knows around 35000 words, multiply that by 8. You'd need to know 280000 words at least if you want to learn 8 languages, that's just impossible, you'd need to know 245000 words more than the average university professor.

>>22480046
There are around 4000 grammar rules in English (some say there are around 10000) and English is an "easy" language. If you wanted to learn 8 languages you'd need to memorize at least 32000 grammar rules from languages that are probably much harder than English. All this coupled with 280000 words to memorize as well. How the fuck is this possible at all? It's just impossible, a juvenile dream. Even learning 4 languages in-depth is already an almost impossible endeavor, imagine double that.

>>22480014
>>22480046
>>22480053
I think the problem is you’re thinking about language learning as memorizing discrete facts like words and grammar rules. I’m a native English speaker who teaches English, and there’s no way I could name 4,000 grammar rules about English. Most of them are just effortlessly acquired, and the same goes for any language you learn. Also, you’re assuming that you would need to learn 35,000 for each language, but most native adult speakers don’t even know that many words. The vocabulary threshold for being able to deal with daily tasks/interactions or even read books is much lower. Finally, assuming some of the languages are related, you don’t even really have to memorize some words in other languages; you can just memorize patterns. To give an example, the French word for “slowly” is “lentement.” Once I learn that “(e)ment” is the French equivalent of English “-ly” I can start guessing adverb forms of adjectives that I already know. This compounds when Spanish, as the Spanish equivalent is just “(a)mente.” Thus, I can assume that “slowly” or “lentement” would be “lentamente” in Spanish. This lightens the cognitive burden a lot because you don’t actually have to know all of these words separately.

>>22480014
memorizing the rules is what adults do to boost their learning rate compared to how they learned their native tongue as children by pure passive absorption of countless phrases, but after you reach a certain proficiency level the rules themselves become less and less necessary
also it depends on which languages you are talking about, someone who learns many Romance languages is obviously doing less work than someone learning languages from multiple different linguistic families
in particular after you learn some indo-european languages from different families you have a much easier time approaching other IE languages

>>22480095
>>22480157
I wanna learn german, greek and mandarin and they're all very different from each other, memorization is a must!

>>22480169
Well, German has a lot of transfer from English since they belong to the same branch of IE, so you’ll benefit from learning patterns like I mentioned between Spanish and French. Greek will be very different from German, but they are both IE still, so there will be overlap, and English itself has a fair bit of vocab taken from Greek. Mandarin will be the hardest of the three, but mandarin grammar is actually very simple, so you will mostly need to memorize vocab. You can definitely learn these three languages to proficiency in your lifetime.

>>22480179
And if I learn german will it "transfer" if I wanna learn a nordic language like danish? And will mandarin "transfer" if I wanna learn japanese as well?

>>22480187
>if I learn german will it "transfer" if I wanna learn a nordic language like danish?
Yes. And once you know a Nordic language, there is enormous transfer to other Nordic languages.

>will mandarin "transfer" if I wanna learn japanese as well?
To a certain extent. They belong to different language families, but there are some broad similarities in grammar. The biggest transfer would be that if you know thousands of Chinese characters, learning Japanese Kanji (which is often the hardest part for learners) will be a piece of cake.

>>22462914
>moses
Anon, hes a jewish fiction

>>22480252
And? That doesn’t mean he’s not real

Is this true?

>>22480893
no

>>22480893
yes

>>22474470
Latin

>>22480893
the book wouldn't lie to you

>>22480893
>>22480897
just realized it's a y not a v, the underline hid the tail so I assumed it was a v; yi as in "yield" is correct

χτύπημα

>>22478528
why are you people so hesitant to the idea that one doesnt have to drill thousants of hours on a grammar book ? I've been using immersion methods and extensive reading and 3 years now i can read whatever i want without dictionary.

>>22482581
You will never really know the language if you don't study grammar. Deal with it.

What are some good resources for classical Arabic? (not modern standard)

>>22482581
Same here. Been doing it for 5 years and now I don't even need a book at all, I just visualize what the author is saying in my head.

greek vs latin, which has the superior poetry?

>>22483294
The answer is pretty obviously Greek

Most of you would have been happier and healthier as slaves in the mines of Laurion and you know it

Θεωρῶ πρὸς τὸν αἴλουρον καὶ λέγω, 'Τρόγε, μου αἴλουρον.'

>>22482581
Why does it have to be one or the other? Without grammar you'll make tons of mistakes and your progress will be slower. But obsessively memorizing grammar is useless without input. I've found best results are combining traditional grammar based study with immersion methods and heavy reading. That way you learn gradually and intuitively see the grammar in action.

any site with photos of greek inscriptions? i know of https://inscriptions.packhum.org/ and https://icg.uni-kiel.de./ but i'd be more interested in seeing pictures instead of just text.

like https://www.edb.uniba.it/search/quick/do for latin

Starting my greek course next week at uni, using the JACT reading greek textbooks. I am very excited guys, will keep you updated

>>22483937
εὐτυχοῖς, ἐροῦ ὅτων που ἀπορεῖς

I was trying my hand at translating Cicero's In Catalinam, and I got to this part.
>Ad mortem te, Catilina, duci iussu consilis iam pridem oportebat, in te conferri pestem quam tu in nos machinaris...

I understand the first clause just fine, and I want to say that the second part says: "the disaster which you contrive against us ought to be conferred upon you." But there is no "ought" verb. Unless I'm mistaken and oportebat is being used in both clauses?

>>22484358
>oportebat is being used in both clauses
yes makes sense

He won.

>>22483294
not even a question

>placement exam Greek/Latin at Uni
>I dropped the subject in hs as I was a lazy teen
>now get placed in the beginners group
>rest gets to study advanced material already
Vgh, I hate my past self so much bros

>>22484884
in four more years wait til you regret not independently studying advanced material outside school

>>22484906
I am as well, it's just that I need a degree and Classics is comfy. Not everyone is American!

How many of you here are studying both Latin and Greek?
I'm juggling between easy Latin reading (Caesar), hard Latin reading (Ovid), Greek grammar (Mastronarde), Greek reading (Athenaze) and uni (not a classics major). I'm probably addicted to studying, it's the only way I feel alive.

>>22484218
OMG!! ancient greek pepe is so precious T_T

>>22484385
>tattoo
herpes
eventual divorce, just wait

>>22484982
I did Latin first, then Greek. Nowadays I'm reading something of both though less than I used to because I have other shit going on, but I still try to do a bit every day, some Livy here, some Diogenes Laertius there, re-reading a bit of my favorite parts of the Iliad.

Latinbros. I finished my textbooks a while ago but never read anything. I think I remember pretty much all of my base vocabulary and all of the paradigms, but I forgot some of the specific syntax and rules like weird uses of the dative and ablative etc. Should I just start reading Nepos or should I review? And if I do review, what's the best thing to go over? I was thinking about just skimming through any grammar and ignoring the exercises and then trying to read something.

>>22483294
Not even the most patriotic romans would have given that question much thought.
I will say that the Latin poets are often more immediately culturally familiar to us moderns. But the Greeks are sublime.

>>22485444
eh, maybe I'd quick review a familiar grammar just to recall the key constructs and then indeed read some easy work but still authentic ancient Latin
reading at the end of the day is what cements the mnemonically fragile skeleton of simple grammar input

>>22482581
>thousants of hours
Here is your mistake. You would not have to study more than a Wikipedia page if you'd studied some language's grammar already, but this post tells me you have not.
One builds up broad senses of grammar in studying languages. I can tell important things about the grammar of languages I don't even know just by looking at text.

>>22485444
Read, but read actively. Err on the side of using your highlighter and pen too much.

>>22485487
He is doing what every single one of these people do which is quoting someone else talking about a language that he has never learned.

I said this a long time ago, but you can literally fit all the regular declensions on one sheet of paper, maybe two pages if you want to include the most common irregulars like caelum, domus, and a few of the i-stem 3rds. As for the conjugations - maybe six sheets. The four regulars, -io's, and sum. You can easily tape it above your desk or on the bathroom wall and memorize this in less than a week.

>drill thousants of hours on a grammar book ?
Literally nobody who wants to read does this. Nobody thinks paradigms make you fluent. Nobody thinks paradigms make you read without a dictionary. The people who study grammar and can't read *don't want to read*. People like Mary Beard have no interest in being fluent. They are content reading someone else's translation in a Loeb and maybe glancing at the parallel Latin for some context, but that's about it. So they cannot fail at doing something that they were never even attempting in the first place.

The people who are *actually* attempting to read fluently learn their grammar and then read until their eyes bleed and their fingers are covered in papercuts from flipping through the dictionary. That's it. That's the strategy. If you had actually done this yourself, you would know that eventually you use the dictionary less and less, but you are never fully free of it if you actually want to engage with native texts beyond Caesar. There are no shortcuts in life so stop being a bitch and grind that XP.

>>22485538
I really think some variation on this ought to be put in the OP, since so many people seem to be bringing their "how can I pass calculus with the least possible effort" strategies to something they're doing fucking voluntarily. Classical languages require obsession. If you are obsessed you will devour every resource you possibly can; if you are not you will not make it. That's it. That is all there is too it.

>>22485552
"Lifehack" culture has absolutely ruined learning for an entire generation that is convinced every human before them over the past 200,000 years was an idiot that never thought to "work smarter not harder". I know it's been said before but would anyone try these crackpot trends on Sumerian or Hittite? Will you avoid using the dictionary and 'infer' everything so you can learn Ugaritic 'like a baby learns from his mother'.

>If you are obsessed you will devour every resource you possibly can;
It took me so long to make progress because I was fucking around with this nonsense when I had perfectly good textbooks at my disposal and I wouldn't use them because I thought everyone before 1930 was learning the "wrong way". The fact is you don't learn from the textbook. You learn from reading. But the textbook helps you get a base vocabulary and an outline so you can direct your attention to the relevant parts of syntax while reading. It's like saving a password so you can login faster. You save all those paradigms and base vocab so you can spend more time contemplating what a text means as opposed to what it even says in the first place.

>>22485577
For that matter, fuck who tries to pass calculus with the least possible effort. Imbeciles.

>>22485444
>I just start reading Nepos or should I review?
both

>>22485761
I have Jones & Sidwell but never got around to reading it. I think that's a good middle road now that I've through about it. I'll read Nepos too. I have a nice edition with notes and vocab.

>>22474018
some dude is writing one, google lgpsi

Gentleamici, how do we save children from reading a gateway tranny literature (LLPSI) and put them on the righteous path (Anki)?

>>22485577
>It took me so long to make progress because I was fucking around with this nonsense
good to know that the ultimate source of the llpsi butthurt is people trying it and finding it too hard. i was also "fucking around with this nonsense" and made rapid progress, maybe the issue is your low verbal iq or something

>caesar
>easy latin

>>22486788
I thought LLPSI was relatively problematic, weren't they rewriting a new version without slavery or something?

>>22483145
They're almost the same thing. Proper MSA just has a slightly simplified grammar and a more modern lexicon. But most MSA resources intended for westerners suck and teach a colloquial, dumbed-down version of MSA with no case endings or mood endings. Avoid those because you want a strong grammatical base for Classical.

I always recommend A New Arabic Grammar of the Written Language by Haywood. It has a gentle learning curve, systemically covers both MSA and Classical, and full answer key (this is important for self-studying). It's not just a grammar reference book and I consider it a full course. Once you master this book, you'll be ready for advanced study of Classical Arabic.

The book and its answer key can be easily found online for free.

>>22486828
I think Caesar kinda is easy. At least I can sight-read for a while until I get stumbled by a word I don't know or can't infer from its roots.
Ovid, though, is still hard even after you get used to hyperbaton. His vocabulary is obviously much richer, and even the grammar can stumble you at times. For me, it's his recurrent uses of the Greek accusative, a construction that isn't native to Latin.
>emittitque notum. madidis Notus evolat alis,
>terribilem picea tectus caligine vultum;
And he hurls forth the South Wind. The South Wind flies out with dripping wings,
His terrible face shrouded in pitchy darkness.

It's actually such a beautiful line too.

>>22479908
"Penis" in Greek has a clinical weight, like saying "male reproductive organ" or "member", or something like that. "Dick/cock" equivalents are highly vulgar (but also more common)

is ancient greek easier than latin?

>>22488502
no, unless you speak modern Greek

>>22488502
Neither is easy for anyone who has to ask.

>>22485552
OP here, I was thinking something along this regarding a sort of very short QA for the most commonly asked questions to be added either in the OP or in a second post, we could try to make one
so e.g
Q: what's the get-fluent-quick trick for [classical language]?
A: well actually, ....
etc....

>>22489148
Just make a rentry with an FAQ.

>>22489148
Here's my quick take.
>Q: How do I learn Latin fast? What textbooks do I use?
>A: Wheelock and LLPSI at once and everything else you can find, and at a steady, measured pace.
>Q: No, but really, how do I get fluent fast?
>A: Your choice of textbook will be much less important than your consistency with it. To become familiar with any of thes languages will soon require you to use every resource available anyway.

How does Sallust compare to Caesar in terms of style and difficulty? I can slowly trudge through Caesar but I thought the war with Cataline would be a very interesting read.

>>22489819
Somewhat harder but that's what I did before getting into Tacitus, I heard Sallust was kinda halfway and an entry point for the more terse style of the former. Good read though. Be careful that at least in some editions you'll have the alternative/archaic forms like maxumus for maximus, lubido for libido, etc...

>>22490354
I have the loeb edition on hand and the introduction warned about archaic alternatives that he liked to use. I wanted to read his works in English anyway but I'll hold off study of the Latin until I'm more confident with Caesar.

ok, I wrote a basic FAQ, needs expanding obviously, suggestions are very welcome, also from our non Latin/Greek learning classical friends
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

I've found Velleius Paterculus to be a good intermediate read. He's just less consistent than Caesar with language so has some weird grammar but overall is a bit easier.

>>22490541
Add a more traditional textbook for Greek

>>22490431
>I'll hold off study of the Latin
There is no reason not to at least try. Yes it will be harder than Caesar but you will gain valuable experience by working through it. Do Sallust in one session and Caesar the next. You will go through far less of Sallust but your horizons will be broadened.

>>22490573
idk which one, I used Athenaze + readers exclusively back then, suggestions welcome, there's one often mentioned here but I don't remember the name

>>22490578
I'd recommend Mastronarde.

>>22490588
Hi

>>22490588
good call: I haven't read it, would you say it's a traditional grammar-heavy textbook, how would you describe it?
I'm also thinking of adding a QA for readers, starting with the follow up to Familia Romana, Lhomond's Viris Illustribus, Morice's Stories in Attic, Alexandros. To Hellenikon Paidion, etc...
still a work in progress anyway, we'll see if it's good enough for the next OP

>>22490603
Why add a ton of readers? FAQs are supposed to be short and sweet and to the point. Mention a couple books, which you did for both, then stress the fact that what matters is that one studies, not what book one uses. That is more important than a thousand arguments over textbooks.
The focus should be on getting readers into authentic texts as soon as possible. Next question/segment after textbooks should be good introductory texts. Caesar, Nepos, Suetonius, whatever. Not more textbooks, they are a waste of time.
>Familia Romana, Lhomond's Viris Illustribus, Morice's Stories in Attic, Alexandros. To Hellenikon Paidion
You haven't read any of these, why add them to a FAQ when you know nothing about them? Don't ask how I know. Keep it simple. You already mentioned a good grammar and reader for each language - that is all that is necessary.
Make a section on study habits and advice for learning a dead language.
Finally you really should read a ton of other FAQs on different subjects to get a feel for writing one. Your style comes off weird. Make the questions honest, not your imitation of someone asking them. Keep your answers terse and direct. Brainstorm some actual questions people have or would ask. What you have so far boils down to four recommended textbooks and 'Study more, shitpost less'. While that is good advice a FAQ is much more. I suggest trying out several iterations of it in the next few threads, responding to criticism and refining it before putting it in the OP.

>Tum amīcus eius, rēx Aegyptī, cum felīcitātem atque glōriam eius ingentem vidēret, tyrannō suāsit, ut iactūram faceret eius reī quā māximē omnium dēlectābātur: ita deōrum invidiam āvertī posse spērābat
WHOREberg

>>22490658
I've read two of those myself both in Latin and Greek and heard good things about the other two. But sure, I can agree reading authentic material ASAP is the road to follow, albeit I've seen many get kinda demoralized by the sensible jump in difficulty from their textbook Latin even to Caesar.

You can be more explicit if you want, i.e write what you think some of those suggestions should be or explicit QAs, otherwise we can get into a back and forth over small minutiae. As for the style, I tried to keep it lighthearted and 4chan-esque on purpose.
I'd appreciate also more variation for intro textbooks as well.
The link will remain the same anyway, in the next OP I can link it as "work in progress FAQ" to accept further suggestions or criticism.

>>22463395
authentic the word order, they change

>>22490851
I don't get it, what's the problem

If latin participles can function as adjectives, and pure adjectives can act as nouns, can all participles be used as nouns?

>>22491379
more specifically is it just a particularity that iacturam from >>22490851 as a noun meaning "an act of jettisoning" is also the inflected future participle or can this be done consistently?

>>22491396
It's a particularity in that iactura is used so often that it has become a noun with a separate meaning. You can use adjectives as nouns in Latin, but assuming iactura wasn't a noun with a specialised meaning, it would mean "she who/that which is about to throw", not "an act of jettisoning".

>>22491396
>>22491858
Also, -ura is a suffix for forming abstract nouns out of participles, as in factura, pictura, mensura. What I said previously applies more to adjectives like maior.

help my friends are now saying Huehnergard (PBUH)

What are the best books to learn mandarin? Books that will take me from 0 to being able to read Red Chamber?

>>22492574
I mean this is probably not the best thread for modern mandarin but I've heard the recommendation of the John DeFrancis Chinese course. It does language and writing separately.

>>22492584
I've seen chinese learners here before. Thanks for the recommendation, I'm only interested in reading.

>>22486819
Why do the people who bring this shit up accuse other people of being butthurt? Nobody wants to talk about your orange book. I finished it already and it wasn't hard. It was boring. It's also not the topic of discussion despite you desperately trying to bring it up randomly.

>>22482581
>now i can read whatever i want without dictionary.
kek

>>22493572
to be fair once you learn enough vocab you can probably read pretty well without a dictionary, although you'll struggle on new words unless you have a really good grasp of the language. I can skim Homer without a dictionary (at the pace of slow reading), although my understanding is severely hampered by my poor vocab knowledge.

I hate Reading Greek I hate Reading Greek

>>22493786
then why are u doing it?

>>22493828
it's the textbook my faculty uses

Greekbros, how is this dialogue written by ChatGPT? I know enough to tell it's not total gibberish, but not enough to judge its quality?

Σωκράτης: ὦ φίλοι, σήμερον περί τινος σημαντικοῦ ζητήματος διαλέγομεθα. Λέγω δὴ περί τοῦ εἰ ἐπιτρέπτον ἐστὶν ἀνδρὶ πλήρει μείρακι τὴν τέχνην τοῦ "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" θεωρεῖν καὶ ἡδέως ἐγκωμιάζειν.

Αθηναγόρας: ὦ Σωκράτη, τοῦτο ἄν μοι δοκεῖ ἀτοπῶς. Τίς γὰρ ἀνήρ σοφός τε καὶ σεμνός τὴν τοιαύτην σκιτσογραφίαν ἐφίεται;

Πλάτων: ὁ ἐν Ακαδημίᾳ. ἔχω γὰρ ὁ ίδιος ἐμπάθειαν τὴν τοιαύτην ἀναγραφήν. Ἀλλὰ οὔπω γεγράφων ἑωυτόν.

Εὐθύφρων: Ἀλλ᾽ οὐχ ἑώρας, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοὺς νέους τῶν ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ συνέρχοντας ὁμοῦ ὡς τὴν φιλίαν τῆς διανοίας περιφαίνοντας;

Σωκράτης: οὐκ ἔχω μὲν ὁμολογοῦντος τοῦτο λέγοντος, ἀλλὰ τὴν ἐπιστήμην αὐτὴν διεξευρισκομένους τι καλόν τε κἀγαθὸν ἂν πεποιηκότας ὀμνύω.

Αθηναγόρας: Ἀλλὰ ὦ Σωκράτη, οὐκ αὐτῷ τῇ τέχνῃ ἡδέως προσέχειν δεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῇ φιλίᾳ καὶ τῇ ἀρετῇ, οὐ τῇ παιδικῇ διασκεδάζοντι.

Σωκράτης: Ἀλλὰ οὐχί, ὦ Ἀθηναγόρα, πολλὰ ἐκ τῆς τοιαύτης τέχνης ὄφελος ἔχειν δοκεῖ. ἐκεῖνα γὰρ τὰ ἔργα τὰ προσφιλῆ καὶ εὐσεβῆ πρὸς τοὺς ἐραστάς ἐκτιθέμενος, ὁμολογεῖς ὅτι ταῦτα αὐξάνει καὶ διατηρεῖ τὴν φιλίαν;

Πλάτων: Ἔχεις δίκαιον, ὦ Σώκρατες. Ἐάντινος γὰρ τὴν πρᾶξιν φιλοσοφίας μετὰ φίλων παιδικῶν θεάματων κατανυκτικώτερον ποιεῖ, οὗτος μάλιστα φίλος ἂν εἴη τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ.

>>22494473
Update: I've started to notice problems with accents, as well as some weird inconsistencies like, e.g., how Socrates is spelled in the vocative. Still, is it understandable, or is it nonsense?

>>22494473
from a quick look, it seems to have a similar problem as with Latin but maybe worse, i.e it's basically ""thinking"" in english but trying to translate expressions word for word, so it's highly non idiomatic even if it uses somewhat correct words, albeit I see some neologisms there
I don't understand it wholly either but I just took a quick look, some words like γεγράφων are neither ancient nor modern IIRC, I don't know what it's trying to translate there

bump

Why is the italian Athenaze the golden standart when it comes to ancient greek textbooks? Should I use it even though I can't read in italian?

>>22495754
A friend of mine is doing a course with English Athenaze and it is apparently not that good.

>>22495754
Italian Athenaze is not the gold standard for Greek textbooks: it is the gold standard for beginning Greek readers, and should be used in close conjunction with at least one other book. There are very few beginning Greek readers, so Italian Athenaze's generally decent and occasionally very good quality makes it stand out.
What matters with beginning readers is length. A few dozen pages of repetition compensates well for any difficult front-loaded linguistic content. Italian Athenaze is about twice as long as other editions, and has been edited besides to space out new content more and make it frankly more interesting. This makes for a pretty good easy reader with which to grind at the intermediate stages too.
As I said above, it should always be used with another resource, preferably with many. Any resource under the sun should work. I would be interested to see what progress a new learner could make using a traditional textbook like JACT or Hanson and Quinn in conjunction with Assimil and Italian Athenaze.
Given the errors in your English, you're probably already at least bilingual. You can probably deal just fine with the very, very minimal Italian needed for it.
Don't use it alone, though.

>>22496038
Let me add to this a bit: reading a grammar page on Wikipedia counts as studying grammar, and is probably sufficient if you've already studied a dozen languages, give or take.
I find that those who claim to have learned entirely from readers actually studied grammar in such a way that "didn't count" for them, or are flat-out lying.

>>22496038
>Given the errors in your English
What errors, asshole? I only mistook standart for standard.

>>22496159
>Italian not capitalized twice
>Ancient Greek not capitalized
>standart
I suppose all that could be a coincidence of a sloppy typist even though you always manage to capitalize I
>golden standard
Should be gold but maybe just a slip
>in italian
And there it is, ESL confirmed. You can't read Italian, not in.
If you aren't ESL you are just a bumbling retard

I went to a thrift shop today and I found a book called vergili opera by oxonii and a cambridge book with notes of virgil by sidgwick
Are these useful at all? They were $3 total so no big deal if they aren't
I'm not sure if I want to learn Latin

>>22496422
Yes
The Virgil book is the OCT. Blue cover, right? Best edition of Virgil's works. $3 is a steal.
Sidgwick's notes are old but an excellent resource for reading Virgil. They will help you with difficult passages, phrases and words.
$6 for the two is a great buy. Even if you don't learn Latin, which you should, they will have much better resale value than what you paid.

Is it true that Greek is easier than Latin?

>>22496159
That other anon is not me, but they listed them. Maybe I was insensitive in pointing them out, but it's nothing to be ashamed of. I was simply making the point that you are probably already multilingual and thus have a big advantage.

>>22496593
No.

>>22496978
How much easier is Latin than Greek? Parlo già l'italiano. (I already speak Italian)

>>22496986
You have a very big advantage with Latin in that more words will be familiar to you than not. It will still take many hours of serious study to develop basic reading knowledge, but significantly fewer than would be the case for Greek.

>>22496986
Also, assuming you are Italian, just go ask your local classics professor. Autodidacticism is perilous, and your country has the best classics education in the world.

>>22496995
>>22497001
Thank you anon, unfortunately I am not Italian and am just an anglo who speaks the language, but I suppose it will still help me a tad

>>22497001
>Autodidacticism is perilous
Can you elaborate as to why?

>>22497030
I shouldn't make such blanket statements: some degree of autodidacticism is of course necessary, especially if one wants to be a specialist in just about anything. For entire subjects, though, and especially at the beginning stages, most people can't or won't keep themselves consistent, and will, worse still, lie to themselves about their expertise with no one to evaluate them. Moreover, beginners don't even know what they don't know. I don't see a neat way around that for most.

>>22494473
Nasty blend of attic and koine
Easier to learn though I guess

I'm gonna learn 4 different languages at the same time.

https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/decl.html
is there anything like this for verbs?

>>22497057
https://students.open.ac.uk/arts/a276/OU_Interactive_Latin/
https://magistrula.herokuapp.com/latin

>>22496159
this is how you respond to someone who decided to effortpost just to help your sorry ass?

>1st decl.
>filiabus
did you think i wouldn't find out

You guys might already know about this, but just in case you don’t, check it out: http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/greek/index.htm

I’ve had a good time with the reading exercises.

>>22497353
ok who is responsible for this blunder?

The entirety of Perseus fits in a little over a gigabyte. And that includes a lot of the useless english translations.

>>22496441
Awesome
Thanks anon

>Hī omnēs numerōrum litterae adduntur ad litterās X, L, C, D, M.
why hī and not hae as in all these letters(f) of numbers are added...

>>22500673
because Orberg is a hack

>>22500699
it's from cicero

>>22500822
Lying nigger. Why lie about such a thing? The lie serves no purpose and is easily shown to be a lie. How black are you? Post yellow sclera

isn't the Latin translation here of "τὸν ἥλιον οὐκ ἐλάττονα τῆς γῆς" kinda inaccurate? i.e it says "the sun is not smaller than the earth", no? but the translation says equal

>>22500917
technically equal also means not smaller but based on that excerpt it does seem misleading

Does anyone know how much of a gap there is to knowing classical latin and liturgical latin?

>>22500927
I think I see what you mean, but an adverb would make it much clearer i.e «at least» as big as the earth

>>22500933
Vocab. If you learn classical you will understand a good 80-90% of liturgical

>>22500933
Classical languages are not like spoken languages, where learning the "wrong dialect" might indeed make communication more difficult with millions of people. By the time you get a good grasp on classical Latin, you will have most of liturgical Latin already, and more importantly, you will have developed the skills to fill the remaining gaps without much sweat. The same is true of Homeric to Attic to Ionic or Koine or whatever Greek, Classical to Modern Standard (not vernacular) Arabic, Biblical to modern Hebrew, etc. Hundred Schools to Tang to Qing Classical Chinese may be the case that presents the largest difficulties with each transition but it's still perfectly manageable. Why does everyone always ask these questions? The answer to all of them is consistency.

started studying Russian but I wanted to say how much having studied Latin and Greek helps in terms of morphology, really makes it look not so scary(vocabulary is another matter)

>>22501718
I wanna learn Russian before learning Latin and Greek, am I screwed?

>>22501901
no, not really, but if it's your first highly inflected IE language you won't have that experience you get with classical languages
at the end of the day vocabulary acquisition is always the great filter, grammar can always be digested

okay how about this
>Hī omnēs numerōrum litterae adduntur ad litterās X, L, C, D, M
All these [numbers] are added to a letter of the numbers for the letters X, L, C, D, M

>>22501954
What are the highly inflected IE languages?

>>22502198
nowadays in Europe basically the Balto-Slavic ones, and as you move west you tend to lose that high inflectional nature with english I guess being the extreme case of this process, while languages like German or modern Greek remaining somewhat halfway, especially Greek, not sure about Albanian tbqh
Icelandic is a noteworthy exception too, remaining quite Norse-like and highly inflected as old English itself was

>>22502198
>What are the highly inflected IE languages?
Literary forms of Celtic languages like Welsh and Irish haven't changed much since the 16th century despite the colloquial varieties losing much inflection.

https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/decl.html
is there something like this for greek

Is there an inclusive Biblical Hebrew yet?

>>22462548
>been learning latin for a year
>tons of documents, notes, and worksheets
Still can barely read a basic sentence of latin. None of the vocab ive spent hours and hours trying to memorize has stuck.
It's so over. I will never be a polygot
This language makes my brain hurt, I can't do this anymore.

>>22503724
I think my vocab is still really limited, like I tried reading Caesar and still had to look up on Wiktionary like half the words.
Acquiring vocab also feels more difficult as the declension system, for me anyway, makes it harder for me to identify a word.
As often i'll be familiar with the wordbut not remember all of the different declensions, so processing a sentence takes like ten times longer than with spanish or english because i feel like I basically need to chop off the endings first, then re-add the declensions after i understand the base word and then lastly apply the declension to understand the order.
So even a very simple sentence takes me forever to read. I definitely need a better process.

>>22503724
>Still can barely read a basic sentence of latin. None of the vocab ive spent hours and hours trying to memorize has stuck.
Vocabulary is what really makes reading so brutal. The grammar for Latin is not even remotely difficult. The forms are incredibly regular and the frequent irregular forms that you will have to contend with are few enough to memorize without too much hassle. It's definitely disappointing because I've studied for a long time too and done a few textbooks and still am completely filtered by the massive lexical gap. I'm going to spend the next few months with some intermediate readers, but even then I take a look at some of them an I have to look up at anywhere from 1/4-1/3 of the words just in a single paragraph.

And yes fuckwads I read FR and finished it a while ago. Wasn't difficult, and it helped a little padding out the base vocab, but still I feel like I only have 3k words down and probably need closer to 8k-10k words to read comfortably. At least that's how it feels.

>>22503800
>have to look up at anywhere from 1/4-1/3 of the words just in a single paragraph
Yes, but you do this for a few hundred pages and that fraction becomes much smaller

>>22503744
>vocab is difficult
i started learning yesterday and it doesnt seem difficult at all. 3/4 of the words have obvious clues since they are the root of many modern words

>>22503867
>i started learning yesterday
lmfao

>>22503867
Yeah cause you just started.
There's a lot of false friends, words that look similar to words I know in Spanish or English but have a different meaning.
Also distinguishing nouns and adjectives in a sentence can be difficult as Latin sometimes can use adjectives as nouns.

>>22503867
>i started learning yesterday
well that's settled then

>>22503804
>Yes, but you do this for a few hundred pages and that fraction becomes much smaller
I've invested enough time into this, that I just have to trust the process and stick with it. This is what most people have said so I'll just keep trying.


>i started learning yesterday and it doesnt seem difficult at all. 3/4 of the words have obvious clues since they are the root of many modern words
This is obviously bait so I'm not giving you a (you), but anyways my comment was about reading literature not first week problems.

I love latin. When I read even basic sentences the beauty of its looks gives me the same feeling as a lot of good literature. Modern language is the tongue of vulgar peasantry

>>22503955
In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any modern language's syntax, but because I am enlightened by high inflection.

adolescens != adulescens
>interficere te Latine una potest dumtaxat littera

>>22503744
I've felt that too. Don't really think there is anything too it than just reading Caesar and other texts a lot. The Vulgate is good since it repeats a lot and the grammar is very simple, possibly the most simple actual text I can think of so it's just an exercise in vocabulary. Hopefully, you don't think about what word is a gentive too much and you sort of just get what it is, it'll come to everything else too but you just need to practice by reading lots and lots of Latin.
>>22503867
bruh

>>22503929
Don't expect to go flying through books left and right. It takes years to get proficient. Maybe take smaller chunks at a time, a page, even a paragraph.
Also see pic related, works for Latin and Greek. Having a record of vocab lets you know what words are repeated stumbling blocks and where you need to focus. At first you will be writing down damn near every word but gradually your notebook will fill up more and more slowly. This method also reduces the time spent going back and forth between text and dictionary and separates them into their own sections.

does lavare have a special meaning in the passive or were Romans usually washed by slaves?

>>22504662
middle voice meaning of washing oneself

>ἐπειδὴ δὲ μοι παιδίον γίγνεται, ἐπίστευον ἤδη καὶ πάντα τὰ ἐμαυτοῦ ἐκείνῃ παρέδωκα
what is the nuance, if any, of the verb in the temporal clause (γίγνεται) being present? I looked it up in Smyth but couldn't find anything. it talked about how ἐπειδή is normally used to show that the temporal clause happen(s/ed) prior to the main clause, and that finite indicative verbs mean that it happen(s/ed) at a specific point in time and is a fact, but it said nothing about the present tense use when the main verb is in secondary sequence.and none of the examples it has includes temporal clauses with a present indicative verb with a secondary tense main verb

>>22462548
How many of you can read this? Go and transcribe it on a piece of paper and translate it for me.

>>22504929
>>22504662
from Essential Latin Grammar:
>Section 256, 2. In imitation of Greek usage many perfect passive participles are used by the poets as indirect middles, i.e. the subject is viewed as acting not upon itself, but as doing something in his own interest; as, - velatus tempora, having veiled his temples (Ov., Met., v.110); a) Occasionally finitive forms of the verbs are thus used; as, - tunica inducitur artus, he covered his limbs with a tunic (Aen. viii.457)

>>22505426
interesting indeed, since the rest of the verbs are in the imperfect or aorist
also immediately afterwards there's another ἐπειδὴ about his mother dying but instead he uses the aorist as expected
maybe it has to do with the child being born and still existing/living, so he uses a sort of historic present construction, whereas he has to contrast the rest with the imperfect since those things most definitely belong to the past?

>>22505506
>maybe it has to do with the child being born and still existing/living, so he uses a sort of historic present construction, whereas he has to contrast the rest with the imperfect since those things most definitely belong to the past?
yeah I think it has to be something like that. it's sort of tricky because γίγνομαι can mean "to be born", which is a single action. and there is such a thing as an "inceptive" imperfect. and the translation I saw on Perseus seems to coincide with this:
>But when a child was born to me, thence-forward I began to trust her, and placed all my affairs in her hands

>>22502159
nah man he just made a mistake, accept it
the construction "Hī omnēs numerōrum" as you translated it would be even more non idiomatic and wrong

Is there an answer key to the preliminary exercises from North M. Hillard's Latin composition book?

>>22506455
inerrant texts do not make m-mistakes...

>page 10

What are some tips you guys use to help with word order? I'm attempting to read Cicero and half the time I can't tell which verbs are affecting which clauses.

so now that the dust has settled, does latin or greek have better literature?

Umquamne fututa's a Pharao? En, pono vaginulam in sarcophago.

>>22509157
quid mehercle.

>mfw restarted uni
>can't speed my way through Greek grammar like I did Latin by studying/reading six to eight hours a day for six months
I miss being a NEET. I'm lonely and sexless in my new apartment.
Classical languages.

you don't have to be afraid of the subjunctive, it's just a passing mood

Iam suum dicit me suggillare oesophagum.
Ludi optima, in gluttiendo iam merita'st certificatum.

>>22509540
>suggillare
Actually, make that suggillasse

>>22509540
>>22509562
still have no idea what you're trying to do

I'm in a grad-level Latin course this semester and almost all of my classmates seem unfit for it. there's one girl who is a freshman but has been taking Latin since middle school. we were paired together to go over how we translated a section of our assigned reading for that day, and she was somehow convinced that a simple active indicative verb was passive and had to look it up on wiktionary to realize it wasn't, which is what I told her beforehand. her and the other students stumble through reading dactylic hexameter (if they even try at all), they often get basic syntax wrong in translation, and the professor just goes along with it half the time. all the other language courses I've taken, and the classes I told in high school, give me a pretty bleak view about language learning - at least in America. idk about you Europa, Oriental, or Aussie bros, though. the whole thing seems to be fucked - both students and teaching methods

>>22508786
>half the time I can't tell which verbs are affecting which clauses
break down the syntax of the verb and look for its potential subject(s): is it indicative? if so, is the subject explicit or implied? is it first person, second, third? singular? plural? if third person, is it impersonal (e.g. licet, necesse est, gerundives, etc.)? if it's an infinitive, is there a verb nearby that normally brings about an infintiive (e.g. words of saying, verbs that take complementary infinitives, verbs of teaching/instruction, etc.)? consider where an infintiive may be used. if you don't know/remember, look it up in a grammar. is it subjunctive? look for nearby words that might bring about a subjunctive. is it an independent subjunctive or dependent? well, try to understand the rest of the sentence and see if any independent uses make sense with everything else.

the syntax of the verb and the subject - which is often not stated - are the two main things you should look to understand, as all the other stuff in sentences normally revolve around them. idk how familiar you are with Cicero, but it does get easier and you start to see tendencies in how he starts off sentences, where prepositional phrases tend to go, where ablatives tend to be placed depending on their use, etc. less and less you will have to be so conscious about the syntax; with some effort, aside from rare/weird grammar or unknown words, it'll just start to make sense intuitively

>>22509703
also consider whether the verb is active, passive, whether it takes an object (sometimes objects are omitted/implied) or is intransitive. also see if a verb is a compound, as the prefix for compound verbs often govern certain declensions (e.g. a compound with 'de-' may govern a dative which expresses separation (aka a dative of separation)). whatever syntax you can get out of it, it doesn't hurt to be able to describe it at any given moment, especially when you're dealing with a hard to understand sentence

>>22509671
Academics are mentally ill (including you)

>>22509671
I'm an undergrad in Italy. Everyone here has taken Latin for five years in highschool and all but a couple have also studied Greek for the same amount of time. Given this premise, the standards are fairly low and have certainly gone down in the past fifty years or so (though not so much so that people cannot recognise infinitives); grades are pretty inflated and even so many fail to scrape by. The quality of teaching however is quite alright overall and there are several students and teachers that are very good at what they do.
Are things so desperate everywhere in the US? I was considering going there for grad school and some universities seemed to have a fairly rigorous curriculum.

>>22509765
>including you
that's fair
>>22509776
>the quality of teaching however is quite alright overall and there are several students and teachers that are very good at what they do
ime teachers here don't focus enough on actual, native content, but on the whole I don't think teachers are the worst part. I have seen a few kids here and there who have excelled and obviously put in work outside of class, but most, even some grad students, seem to do the bare minimum
>the standards are fairly low
that has been my experience too. and so, as I said earlier, when students do the bare minimum, and the bare minimum is rather low, naturally most of them don't have much to show for their 4+ years of study
>Are things so desperate everywhere in the US?
I would assume not, but I'm still not I'm not optimistic on the whole. obviously I haven't seen all the statistics about it nor do I know different high school and college Latin/Greek/Classics curricula nationwide, so I don't want to generalize too much about my understanding of things. but in the couple different state schools I've been to and the students from different states and colleges I've ran into, most of them do not seem to be at the level they should be for the level of courses they take/took. teachers though I have overall nicer things to say about
>I was considering going there for grad school and some universities seemed to have a fairly rigorous curriculum
which schools were you looking at, if you don't mind me asking?

Favourite Classical text? Doesn't need to be something you can read in Greek/Latin.
For me, Ammianus.

>>22509776
Be very careful about which school you choose. Stanford has a good program or so I've heard. Many many schools are focused on DEI crap in Classics though. Do a lot of research before choosing, check out professors and what they have done recently, look into papers and talks given by current grad students, etc.
Things have changed so much in the past few years even long-standing reputable schools have plummeted in terms of quality education.

Which of these is more proper Latin syntax?

Vir ibi diu non mansit.
Ibi vir diu non mansit.
Ibi vir non diu mansit.
Vir ibi non diu mansit.

>>22510661
Ibi diu vir non mansit.

>>22510661
author can and will use syntax to his own advantage contextually, the first and last words for instance adding focus/attention e.g
diu ibi non mansit vir, quod cito se ad ... recepit, diu <-> cito
ibi non mansit vir diu, alibi enim rebare se tutiorem, ibi <-> alibi

anyone listened to ad navseam podcast? for me it's the 15 minute coffee machine plug

>>22509776
To my knowledge, the University of Chicago is known for their very good classics/ancient languages programs.

any tips of developing good greek handwriting? feels like a good idea to get it out of the way early

>>22483294
I was going to try to learn greek instead of latin but it sounds like a language that some fat, sweaty, mustachioed man in a bath house would speak

>>22512335
Find a Greek font/typeface you like, print out some text written in it, practice writing it yourself trying to match the font as closely as possible. Go slow at first and focus on reproducing the shapes accurately. Then, speed up as you get used to it.

>>22511953
>the University of Chicago is known for their very good classics/ancient languages programs.
Their Oriental Institute was very famous and was quite respectable once upon a time, but now it's run by woke women. They renamed it to "Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures" because "Oriental" is offensive.

>>22511453
>"latin" podcast in english
Fail.

>extended llpsi universe actually written by Luigi Miraglia, greatest spoken Latinist of our age
perhaps it's time to apologize, no?

>>22502312
There are still some modern dialects of the Gaelic that preserve old forms. Very old speakers of Munster Gaelic (Gaeulaing na Mumhan) will still use verb inflections and cases that have largely been dropped by the other two dialects.

It is almost guaranteed that younger speakers won't use them though, and are not mutually intelligible with the traditional dialects.

God damn the language is so fucked. Something has to be done soon, it's practically dead as a daily language. New speakers all have such shit grammar and pronunciation. I wouldn't even call it Gaeilge anymore, they speak a whole new language, Éireannis.

>>22514543
>English word order
hackfraud

ἰν νουα φερτ ανιμυς μυτατας δικερε φορμας

δεῖ με κακογράφειν

>>22515898
Μά Δία. Τούτο κακόν εστιν.

>>22516185
>>22516255
φαρτ αςς μυφυγγιν βιξ νουΔ νιγγα ευγραφε ὁδε *γραβς Δικ*

>>22516255
Τιτυρε, τυ πατυλαε, ρεκυβανς συβ τεγμινε φαγι

>>22514754
I know more about Welsh than Gaelic and it's taken so many English loan words that it sounds like pidgin sometimes. Also people slip in other English words when they speak which is annoying. Literary Welsh is like music.

Has anyone ever read the "Vita Karoli Magni"?
How much does its Latin differ from the Classical one, from the time of Cicero?

>>22517946
A few chapters in an anthology and bits and pieces here and there
If you can read Classical well you will be fine with it. It is certainly Medieval Latin. There is a slight learning curve when going from classical to medieval, somewhat akin to different Greek dialects. For the most part the grammar is simplified but vocab throws some curveballs.

For someone who wants to learn both Latin and Greek, is it better to do one (I would assume Latin) first and then the other, or to take them simultaneously?

>>22517958
One then the other. Finish your first textbook before starting the new language.

>>22474470
Greek

>>22517946
yes, I often have suggested it as an easy-ish early read
I enjoyed it, it's fairly good Latin style imho while being easier than classical authors on average and the themes aren't too complex

>>22517958
always greek first, latin has a boatload of greek loanwords

>>22517958
Not impossible to do both, I did both with simultaneous classes and wasn't the only one. I'd slightly recommend starting Latin first just to get used to some of the basic things you're going to be doing in both languages, and Latin is a bit easier initially. But even then you don't have to wait a year to start Greek.

It really depends on you. Some people would find having twice the memorization unbearable, some people would be stimulated by the challenge or enjoy being able to switch to studying one language when the other gets tedious.

>>22474470
Depends on you and your interest. Latin is somewhat easier at the beginning as I said above, because a bit less memorization and the things you're memorizing are a bit more intuitive. Regular instead of irregular accents. Etc. It's just a bit easier. But you should study whichever you will be motivated to keep studying. Or both.

>>22518050
so what? having a strong grasp of latin grammar gives you the biggest possible advantage in tackling ancient greek aside from begin a native greek speaker.

>>22518050
That you'll encounter while learning Greek anyway

NOVUM
>>22518296
>>22518296
>>22518296

>>22474470
whatever literature interests you most
you don't have time for both, and the last thing you want to do is flip flop between languages