/lit/ - Literature

>>22381439
>Female translation
Also, you're likely not white or otherwise too spiritually dead to appreciate and understand the Illiad. You also probably fail to understand the culture and the system of values and morals used by the characters in the Illiad.
This book is beyond you.

>>22381444
>spiritually dead
You talk like a fagot

>>22381439
> Now just as the sun needs an eye to see its light, and music an ear to hear its notes, so is the value of all masterpieces in art and science conditioned by the mind which is akin and equal to them and to which they speak. Only such a mind possesses the magic word whereby the spirits hidden in such works are stirred and reveal themselves. The ordinary man stands before them as before a sealed magic cabinet, or before an instrument which he does not know how to play and from which he can, therefore, draw only confused and irregular notes, however much he may like to deceive himself on this. Just as the effect of an oil painting differs according as it is seen in a dark corner or as the sun shines on it, so is the impression of the same masterpiece different according to the mental capacity of the man who is looking at it. Consequently, really to exist and live, a fine work requires a sensitive mind, and one well conceived needs a mind that can think. But afterwards the man who presents such a work to the world, may only too often feel like a maker of fireworks who has enthusiastically let off the fireworks that took him so much time and trouble to prepare, only to learn that he came to the wrong place and that all the spectators were inmates of an institution for the blind. And yet perhaps he is better off than he would be if his public had been none but makers of fireworks; for in that case it might have cost him his head if his display had been extraordinarily good.

>>22381439
>>no explanation for who any of the characters are
Unneeded because this was written for an audience who knew the story of the Trojan War front and back. Achilles and co. were already legendary figures. It’d be like picking up a historical fiction book about the American Revolution. You already know George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Alexander Hamilton from all the other sources you’ve probably read, so no sane author would waste time doing introductions for every one of them

>>22381439
i know it's bait, but the odyssey, then the aeneid, then ovid's metamorphoses

>>22381439
>autistically responding to a book in a series of books

>>22381444
/pol/tard moment

>>22381439
You’re not supposed to jump into The Iliad like you do with any modern books. You have to read up on history and have prior knowledge of the cultures and their way of life and a complete open mind to tackle The Iliad.

>/pol/tard moment

>>22381666
it was 11/12 in a series, the others were lost. it's like jumping into your favorite anime at season 26 or whatever

>>22381690
meant to reply to
>>22381439

>>22381453
It's "faggot" you faggot

why do i unironically ship achilles and patroclus

>>22381439
>/v/ here

The effort to get over playing with toys is respectable. Thinking your contemporary shitflings are worth a god damn directly after taking your first babby steps into art is not.

Also all that build up and then Hector just runs like a bitch. Like a bad final boss fight or an anticlimax like Mass Effect, and then they just play sports for the last two chapters. Justify this, /lit/ards. Why do all of Homer's characters act like bitches?

>>22381439
>how do they know about their fates
You go to Delphi and ask.

>>22381844
Read icycalm, its the superior spelling

>>22381666
Is the World of Odysseus sufficient?

>>22382016
>men are slaughtered like cattle by the thousands
>every time some noble aristocrat type gets an owie or is remotely threatened they run
Homer was redpilling us the whole time, people were too low iq to see it.

>>22381666
>>22381690
>lol but it gets really good 120 hours in!

>>22382101
the whole thing bangs. you're not gay if you can't identify with ody and patrclus

>>22382111
I mean achilles pardon. but they are all good.

i can't wait for wilson's iliad to drop looking forward to reading it again in another translation

>>22381916
The would be due to the fact that you are a homosexual.

>>22381439
Honestly just read a summary or listen to Steven fry translate what the fuck is happening in his audiobooks on this shit.

>>22381439
You don't have to think to hard when reading all the time. It clearly is not doing you any favours here. Anyhow the Iliad was cool as hell with interesting fights and guys just being dudes. Also, you clearly don't understand the concept of polytheism or gods in general.

Here's one of my favourite parts:
>Peneleos struck him under the brow at the base of the eye, and knocked out the eyeball. The spear passed right through the eye-socket and came out through the muscle of the neck, and Ilioneus sank down stretching out both his arms. Peneleos, then drew his sharp sword and struck at the middle of his neck, and sliced the head to the ground, helmet and all. The heavyspear was still in the eye-socket, and he lifted up the head like a poppy-head on its stalk, and displayed it to the Trojans and spoke in truimph over it: 'Take my message, Trojans, to proud Ilioneus' dear father and mother, that they should weep for him in their house - because the wife of Promachos, son of Alegenor, she too will not have the joy of her dear husband's return, when we sons of the Achaians leave Troy and go home in our ships.'

>>22381439
>no explanation for who any of the characters are
There's a literal explanation almost every time homer mentions a name. Each character has a pool of descriptions used by homer to fit the verse.
>achilles acts like a bitch the entire time whining about his prizes
Agamemnon (a human king, and brother of the man who waged this war) singles him out and steals his prizes. Greek military campaigns ensured loyalty in the men by basically telling them "You keep what you kill". Achilles, a prince and demi-god, feared by Troy, their best warrior and key to success (this is acknowledged by all), cannot revolt against the monarchy, so decides to down tools. Fuck them. Let them see how well they do without me or my (I think) 100's of thousands of highly trained me.
>autistically counts trains for an entire chapter
Yeah... there was a lot of filler in those particular books. I suppose you treat them the way a baseball fan would follow the plays, and mark off who got killed and when.
>plot holes everywhere
Talking about your fate is not a plot hole, but there are noticeable retcons - apparently evidence that the poem had multiple authors.
>characters constantly talking about their "fates", how do they even know about their fates
The gods in some instances literally tell them.
>read all the way to the end
It's not that long, do you want a medal?
>no fucking trojan horse.jpg
>just some gay sports
Honours for fallen Patroclus, and used to reveal how tawdry the apparent Kings and Princes of Greece actually are.
>no trojan horse
The money is in the chase.

I guess you got the wrong translation? I'm new to classics like this, but Fagel's translation was easy to follow, the introduction also invaluable in setting my expectations.

>>22382130
im bi, so close enough

>>22383820
Fagot

>>22381444
Her Odyssey translation is kino. You're a massive faggot.

>>22383853
Read the interview with her, she literally says she wants to make it more sympathetic towards women

>>22381444
>nooooooooooo not the heckin female

>>22383881
If you look at ancient greek history women literally weren't allowed to read the iliad or odyssey. The books were clearly for men

>>22383867
Post age and number of girlfriends.

>>22383905
>chink
Opinion invalidated

>>22383910
So it's 0? Cool cool.

Hector is the only non shitbag
I do like that pride before the fall pretty much a maxim, only the deathless Gods can bare to carry the burden of pride

>>22381666
not at all.
the only thing you need to know is a few lines about a dozen of characters, mainly which side they're on.
what culture are you talking about? the Iliad is as universal as Dragon Ball Z and easy to read. i'm a bit mad i didn't read it earlier because i always thought it was difficult and archaic, but it's great fun.

>>22383839
<3

>>22383881
this but unironically

>>22381444
checked
love the seething grotesque megavirgins defending the virtual imaginary damsel in distress

>>22383905
>number of books worth reading china has produced in its entire history: zero
go back to your insect colony

>>22383931
>Hector is the only non shitbag
Except when he takes the kill for Patroclus, and not the assist.

Worst thread on /lit/ currently.

>>22382016
>Hector just runs like a bitch
Because he is the lesser man. He broke and ran. That's why he lost at the end.

>>22383888
>literally weren't allowed to read the iliad or odyssey
That's a dumb take for a poem older than writing and would have been performed in public, for the public.

And depending on the city state, women's rights varied drastically.

>>22384143
Literally read about it. Women weren't the public. They were considered minors.

>>22384184
You read about it. Women in Sparta had different rights to Athens. In Sparta they could vote but not be out in public on their own. In Athens they could 't vote, but have certain professions.

Good job refuting the actual point in that the poem was passed orally to whomever was listening hundreds of years before being written.

>>22384224
>passed orally
Leftist myth

>tfw remembering those blissful mornings as a teenage NEET reading fitzgerald's homer and jowett's plato in my parents' kitchen while they were at work
>tfw thinking this is so strange, this is nothing like the stories i've read so far, it has no traditional beginning or ending, the characters don't act like any "tropes" or "archetypes" i've seen before, "good guys" end up being bad guys, who am i supposed to sympathize with here?
>tfw my brain wanting to force it to fit into preordained boxes i already have handy but it just didn't
>tfw realizing that it's not these great writings that are flawed, it's me, it's not homer's fault for not fitting in my boxes, it's that i have an impoverished set of boxes
>tfw realizing the wild world out there is so much bigger than what my dumbass teenager brain reflexively wants it to be
>tfw realizing i'm beginning a beautiful journey
>tfw realizing i'm retreading a path taken by generations of homer enjoyers before me
>tfw somehow dimly realizing i have undergone a small but significant rite of passage in my parents' kitchen on a thursday afternoon

>>22384776
It is quite a feeling when you have been naively feeling like you are at the top of your intellectual game when you suddenly realize that you have only just begun to start play, finally stepped out to begin the journey, taking your first real and true steps. That you are being welcomed into the good company of an ancient and long lineage of western thinkers

>>22381439
>Greek epic
>cover is a Roman fresco
Why

>>22385333
Woman translator.

>>22381439
>autistically counts trains for an entire chapter

My Classics professor said this is because it was originally performed for nobles who would recognize their family names, get excited to hear about their ancestors, and pay for future performances. To put it in /v/ bug terms, it’s the Avengers suit-up moment only if Captain America was your great-great-great-grandfather

>>22386259
This. It was like a rapper shouting out a block in his hometown. I’m sure the crowd cheered when their city was mentioned; I’m sure Homer played it up too because he knew where he was. Not to mention lineage was very important in Ancient Greece. It may not be the most exciting passage to read but there is a lot behind it.

>>22386259
Wouldn't they get mad if their ancestor died like a bitch?

>>22386597
If you took part in one of the legendary events- the boar hunt, the expedition for the fleece, the Trojan war, you were a legend even if you died right away. Having a name from one of those events was a high distinction

>>22381439
>v/ here, what the fuck is wrong with this shit
Homer. Emily's translation is adequate. You should start with Odyssey which is a chick lit book written by a woman about women (pro-tip Kirke IS Penelop).

>>22386647
>Kirke IS Penelop
What does this mean

>>22386301
>rapper
Lol
>"books are good for you"
>"Homer is just like a rapper"

>>22386091
That's not the issue. There are good female translators. The issue is her retarded approach.

>>22384127
>That's why he lost at the end
Not true. Hector was never going to win and he knew it. He only hoped that he could finish the argives before the son of Peleus would come to peace with the son of Atreus. Homer shows us the brutality and indifference with which death comes to the warriors, a death which Hector feared, made only worse by the fact that it was due to his own brother that he must now die, he had no say in it. Hector is the righteous man forced to fight for the wrongs of the cowardly. Like Achilles, the gods give him no choice, unlike Achilles he chose the way in which he was to die while at the same time showing his humanity, creating a contrast between the human nature of Hector and the superior nature pf Achilles.

>>22388487
What's wrong with her approach?

>>22382016>>22383888
I recall reading that they would have women recite it at festivals.

>>22386647
no you should read fitzgerald like any sensible man

>>22383881
>>22383853
Lots of websites compare translations. Her translations are invariably shit, trying to make the Iliad and Odyssey sound modern, it sounds off. Just read the Pope translation, yeah yeah it's not faithful, who gives a shit, it's poetry, it's about the underlying sentiments, and Pope expresses and understood them clearly

>>22388832
It's retarded, I'd say.

>>22384076
Back to /pol/ first

>>22381444
Truth. Anyone who thinks Achilles was a "bitch" probably watches youtube videos about how he can be more "productive" for his boss.

>>22381439
>Emily wilson
HHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA! TODAY I SHALL REMIND THEM!

>>22381439
you're an irredeemable plotfag, it's already over for you before it even began.

>>22392213
The first one doesn't fare much better...

>>22383853
>Tell me about a complicated man

>>22393914
Fitzgeraldpilled

>>22392213
>>22393914
>>22393930
>>22393950
The Greek original with proper scansion is the only option. Everything else is an echo from the next room with a loud motor running. It only takes three months to get started and a year to read well enough if you're clever, and none of us have better things to do with a year than to learn to read Homer.

>>22394022
true enough. I bet thats what those dudes on mt Athos do all day

>>22394022
Adolescent mentality. You can read the translation and then decide if you want to invest the time into reading the original.

>>22395060
Non-Greek reader mentality. There is a difference in essence between poetry and its translation. I've known no one to read Homer deeply and in the original and parrot that attitude. I happen to agree with you in the case of nearly all prose.

>>22381444
checked
fpbp

>>22381444
The illiad is actually gay. The Oddessey is the good one.

>>22392205
Waaah waaah waaah you wouldn't like me when I'm angry! Waah waaah waaah why womt the king value me more waaah? Waaah waaah ok now I see red! Grrrrr! (Bugsbunny trips hector) haha I win! (Hector trips and hits his head on a rock) (Achilles dies)

>>22394022
I'm learning programming and then piano.

>>22396213
Add a classical and modern language to that and you'll be very well rounded.

>>22381439
What I find funny is people glorifying Αχιλλεύς forgetting that he was subordinate to the kings kek

>>22396305
what you said makes 0 sense whatsoever, which is predictable given the sentence format

>>22396305
I think people especially men like to glorify brave and great warriors like achilles, thats not really unusal every culture does it. Caesars name became so famous and great that it became a title for leaders etc..

>>22396266
Too much programming to learn, python, c, c++, java, r, go, powershell, bash, it never ends

>>22396325
what people fundamentally like in Achilles I think is its inhuman element, sort of perfect terrifying killing machine, like the Alien or something; the simile of book 22 when Priam sees him in terror speeding over the plane covered in bronze and likened to the star bringing fever and death to mortals makes me shiver as I type it

>>22396416
Well u are pretty much right, im sure you have read superhero comics or manga about gary stu characters. You could argue that the Illiad was the first superhero comicbook but without the pics. Gods and humans fighting eachother using magic and all that shit.

>>22396443
well I'd say it's kinda the opposite, comic books are a thing and have success because they tap into forms and ideas that naturally appeal to the male psyche and have existed in other forms of media even before writing was widespread, providing archetypal figures especially to youths

>>22396305
Zero reading comprehension on display. Achilles is king of the Myrmidons. And don't leave out the smooth breathing sign on the alpha, barbarian.

>>22396323
>>22397829
Still subordinate. Most popular hero in Greece was Heracles
>>22396325
Agreed, that's why they preferred Heracles
Achilleus is interesting for the narrative as a good warrior ethos

>>22396111
Yeah I don't think I expressed my point well there, I realize the purely poetic aspects are hard to judge in any capacity from a translation. The real reason to read a translation first is that the stories themselves are so incredible that you shouldn't make yourself slog through a bunch of rote learning in order to get to them. So read the translation for the structure and then learn the language for the texture (and of course for the sake of everything else written in Greek).

Basically my point is yes you're missing a lot by not reading the original (I assume anyway, I'm only at the very beginning of my journey on that, it's fun trying to learn though and I would fully encourage everyone to do it at some point), but you are also missing a lot by forcing yourself to jump over a bunch of hurdles before you allow yourself to read some of the greatest stories qua stories, even putting aside the poetic merits entirely, that have ever been written. These choices are all just a matter of degree and intuition and it depends on the individual but I think anyone who is enough of a whiz to breeze through all the language study aspects without getting burnt out by the lack of return in terms of actual reading pleasure will probably not be looking for advice from /lit/ in the first place.

>>22396305
He was literally superhuman. He wasn't subordinate, he was allowed to sit by and watch them fight and die exactly as long as he liked.

>>22397859
Speaking of Herakles, did Alexander prefer him?

>>22392297
>plotfag
I get why you would say this for games, but to call someone a plotfag with books is ridiculous and fagy.
Honestly this thread has been full of fagots and nobody has refuted my original points, so I win. Later bookfags

>>22399206
Nice one, doing the 4chan thing of thinking I'd exactly agree if only I knew just what you meant.
I did understand all this the first time you said it, and I agree as far as prose is concerned. Learn the meter properly, learn really to hear it, and you'll realize that there are in fact no translations of Homer: there are only various adaptations. Homer *is* Homeric Greek. The language is the work, and the work is the language. Other great poets such as Virgil, Dante, and Shakespeare may have language-defining power, but only Homer has a dialect all his own. The best translation of Virgil into English is itself a significant work of English verse. The best translations of Homer into any language are close summaries. Fine, but might as well simply read Troy or whatever.

i reread it with some illustrated version and it was pretty fun got closer to understanding it

almost feels like the same air which makes a teenager like videogames with war and comradery; could make one and many do an illiad(tm) someplace

>>22381439
Another Wilson thread? Anyone mention how she markets her books with le standard old white men bad narrative but gets mad if you ask her how being a woman informs her work?

>>22402804
Like this.

>>22402804
Wilson’s translation is fine. It just makes incels seethe for some reason which makes her based

>>22402806
Any conversations about "toxic masculinity" that simply exists in the work because it surely isn't that she has an ideological bias...

>>22402806
Surprising she doesn’t mention Sam Butler because he wrote an entire book about how the Odyssey was written by a woman from Sicily based on incredibly spurious evidence. The Homeric tradition is wrong because some 19th century lib cuck decided otherwise.

>>22402808
>some guy starts asking a question
>Emily interrupts him and raises her voice: pic related
>[laughter]: she's literally cackling and starts rocking back and forth like a retard
>"HUH HUH HUH SAWWIE HEHEHE"
>[the girl they find to ask the question is too retarded to speak into the microphone]
>Emily spergs explains the war was about Helen being "hot" and then mentions rape a couple times
(Timestamps don't work) 1:32:55 of https://youtu.be/TKTUIesfMh0..

>>22381444
>You need to be black to fully appreciate black panther
Great works stand on their own merits. The Iliad is a good book but you are not a good defender of it.

>>22381444
Checked. You pissed off the libtards/trannies.
>>22383853
>kino
She's an autistic cunt who doesn't know how to use deodorant.

>>22381444
>You also probably fail to understand the culture and the system of values and morals used by the characters in the Illiad.

The culture and system of the Iliad is trash and simple. One of Socrates’ highlights was in constantly citing Homer when making an intentionally stupid point and then poking a hole in it. Any system by Homer would not stand up to scrutiny which is why it is FICTION not a set of codes for 21st century incels.

>>22381439
> no explanation for who any of the characters are
>Immediately goes on to name and explain a character
Looks like u didn't need a explanation

>>22402817
She really went all-in on that t-shirt.

>>22402871
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3pQG9bKxUc
Dug up some great Emily Wilson autism cringe.

>>22402871
I will never read Wilson’s translation or give it time of day but I am quite sure she didn’t mention Butler specifically because it wouldn’t lend credence to “le old white men hated us women folk and they didn’t give credit to us.” The thought that Homer was a woman is stupid but it was the same old white men who came up with it.

>>22402892
The "old white men" stuff is retarded anyway. Who else would be translating books into English besides white people and does she really think they were all old men with big white beards and not just middle-aged academics?

>>22381439
>>no trojan horse
Yeah, that's from the Odyssey. Your fault for being ignorant.

>>22402849
>you shouldn't make an attempt to understand the social values of homeric heroes because socrates said they were BAD
read robert lamberton

>>22381439
That's because you are reading the second part of an incomplete epic cycle.
Ideally, you would start with the Cypria which would be the real introduction to the epic cycle.

>>22403073
After the Cypria comes the Illiad and then comes the Ethiopis, the death of Achilles, the little Illiad (the Trojan horse), the sack of Troy, and the return from Troy (it doesn't end well for the Greeks as recounted in a resumed form in the odyssey) the comes the odyssey and another one after that.

>>22403079
The Telegony? It seems to have such a dumb conclusion.

Do you guys prefer The Odyssey or The Iliad? The Odyssey to me is incredibly superior in pretty much every way, and it's not even close

>>22403084
As far as I know, yeah.
>It seems to have such a dumb conclusion.
why do you think so?

>>22403084
>>22403100
How big of a literary event would it be if the lost poems of the epic cycle were unearthed?

>>22403099
i recommend reading the introduction of this book which gives some insight to the structure and themes of the whole work. made me appreciate the iliad a lot more.

>>22403114
probably the biggest since nag hammadi

>>22403114
Pretty fucking big.
Would also open up a lot of things in classical studies in general.

>>22403114
That’s pretty much only second to a completed Critias- Hermocrates dialogue being discovered in literary importance.

>>22401482
Lol alright you’re clearly just out to be combative. You can read ancient Greek, good for you, consider yourself patted on the back. My point is that the stories are sublimely great, and foundational for all European literature, and that is what you get from a translation even if you want to push your glasses up your nose and call it an extremely detailed summary (with its own language that also happens to have plenty of beauty even if it is orders of magnitude removed from the original) instead of a translation. You can be as smug as you like about it, you’ve earned the right, but it’s very immature to promulgate dogmatic ideas that are detrimental to the actual process of learning in the great majority of cases just because doing so enables you to feel superior. I’ll reiterate that of course you haven’t *fully* and *truly* experienced Homer until you read him in the original but I don’t think someone who is at the point of not yet having read Homer in any form should be applying neurotic perfectionist standards to their reading process.

>>22396403
you are not very far are you? by simply learning one of those (if you are brainlet start java, if u are big brain start c) the others will follow in a way where you dont really need to learn them.

>>22394022
>Spend a year minimum learning an ancient so you can read an incomplete epic
I get where you are coming from, but it seems like a waste of time just to read a poem. Nothing against it, if you want to learn Homeric Greek to read the Illiad and the Odyssey I might even praise you. But few people read the Illiad and the Odyssey for their poetic value anymore. Most come for the story, which is also what survives best in translation when everything else gets lost in the language barrier.
tl;dr: Language learning is too slow for me and most people read the Illiad for the plot anyway

>>22403100
>Odysseus randomly marries a queen and has a son
slightly nonsensical but ok whatever
>had a son with Circe
ok makes sense
>son ends up killing him by mistake
sure why not
>Circe makes Penelope and Telemachus immortal
???
>Circe marries Telemachus and Telegonus marries Penelope
??????????????

>>22392213
fuck me Lattimore is great.

>>22403124
I'll check this out whenever I reread the Iliad.

>>22381916
easily the dumbest post ever

>>22381439
The Iliad sucks. The Odyssey is slightly better, but if you want the real nigga shit read History of the Peloponessian War.

>>22381439
The Caroline Alexander translation is so much better. It really sucks that a hyper-autistic cunt like Emily Wilson got a MacArthur Fellowship and all the attention by constantly sperging about being a woman while Alexander was relatively ignored.

Alexander also wrote The Endurance which had a great documentary based on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAvbeahy80Q

>>22403764
Maybe its because of some now lost cultural tradition or origin myth that the poet wanted to legitimize?
fuck if I know.
It just reads like they were ulterior reasons

>>22406192
The resumes, I mean.